Reloading 125gn Lead with W296

[swmass]

Hey all, I recently purchased a lee 125gn .358 RNFP mold which I plan on sizing down and using for 9mm. I will also be able to use this load for my 357s which I'm pretty excited about. I have almost a pound of winchester 296 which I've been loading under commercial 158 grainers... but I can not find any published info on using 296 with a 125 grain cast boolit.. is there a reason for this? I know this powder can be tricky, and I can find data on 125 grain jacketed rounds with 296. I currently load around 15 grains of 296 with my 158 grain loads, so it would make sense using the 125 grains with about 16-17 grains to start? I just find it weird that I cant find any data on this and was wondering if there was a reason for this and if theres anyone on here who reloads 125 grain lead with this powder. I plan on switching to 2400, but I dont want this last pound of 296 to go to waste.

Thanks!

[ioon44]

296 pushes the 125gr jacketed at 1800 to 1900 fps, most cast boolits will not work well at these velocities and changing the charge weight on 296 is not safe.

[stubert]

Hard alloy, and a gas check at that velocity might work. 296 is for full power loads only. Be carefull

[rintinglen]

I don't know what barrel length ioon44 is using, but it takes a case full of 296 to get 1400 fps from my 6 inch S&W. I might get another 250-300 fps from my Rossi, but that has a 20 inch barrel. Speer shows 18.3 grains as their STARTING load for their 125 grain Gold Dot 357 load. Still, I would not use 296 for this use. I can just about guarantee leading, poor accuracy from incomplete combustion, or both.
I would save the 296 for gas checked Hard boolits or condoms and use something a bit more cast friendly. Given that these boolits will also go in you 9mm, you might take a look at Power Pistol. 10 grains will fling them out of your 357 at a pretty good clip, while 5.0 grains will do well in your 9mm. However, you may find that you have to seat that boolit deep to get it to feed, in which case I'd drop my powder charge by at least 10%.
FWIW, My personal experience with this particular boolit has been stinky, at least in the 9 mm.

[vzerone]

I wouldn't use either 296 or 2400 for what you are trying to do. There are so many much more suitable powders out there for that.

[Grump]

Okay, real world experience here. Using Oregon Trail hard cast (and theirs is the ONLY commercial boolit with lube that has ever worked for me), I settled on a load of 20.0 gr 296 in .357. I found those to track J-words pretty closely at heavy load levels. IF anyone tries 29) w/ 125-gr lead, I strongly recommend starting at 17.5 gr, always use Magnum primers, bring a range rod for any stuck boolits, AND watch velocity for extreme spreads being too big. As well as the usual working up loads routine. YMMV, AND TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK. I'm thinking we all follow the big boy rules here. And if you have QuickLOAD, CHECK that first WITH your actual case capacity data & using the closest-matching Lyman or other lead boolit. In fact, maybe just don't bother without checking QuickLOAD predictions beforehand...and know that it's best to load to "only" 90% of pMax. Safety margins are your friend.

Went a bit lighter w/Power Pistol at 9.0 gr. Was trying to get away from Magnum primers. THEN I wanted to get less flash...haven't found one yet that does 1400 w/125 gr. even from a 6" w/o flash. The ones less flashy peak pressure too soon.

FWIW, I have never seen Alliant OR Winchester powders launch any projectile as fast as their data says they should in .357. Even with a 4" S&W that was only 15-25 fps slower than another with 6" that has since been sold. Point is, it was a "fast" barrel--and even adding what another 2" of bbl would likely yield, it still would have been 100+ fps slower than the data...even factoring in barrel gap.

[swmass]

Hmm, maybe I'll load up a few and give it a go just for ****s. I'll probably end up buying a few more hundred 158gn rounds to finish off the 296. FWIW I currently load 158gn bullets from acme bullet, no gas check with 15 grains of 296 and get no leading at all and decent accuracy for plinking. I like throwing heavier bullets but I figure if I'm gonna have the mold, why keep buying them. I shoot a ton of my full wadcutters in 38 with bullseye which I also use in my 9mm, so I'd like to keep my 357 rounds stout as I only load em for fun and plinking really. Any suggestions on a good powder solely for stout 357? I'm sure the infos everywhere but can't hurt to ask

[jonp]

Never mind original. I tried using h110 with something similar and didnt have much luck even with j-words. Very inaccurate with lots of flash and bang and some unburned powder if i remember right.

My theory was that h110 needs heavier boolits to give the slightly longer delay to build up enough pressure for a complete burn. it was some time ago, though

[clum553946]

What everyone has said on this thread is true. You'd have to use a heavy dose of 296 to make this work & with the speed you'd attain would probably result in heavy leading unless you try linotype which still may not work. Do not try to use reduced loads with 296! If you experiment with this, use magnum primers & a heavy crimp. 296 is best with heavier jacketed or gas checked bullets.

[paul h]

H-110 and W-296 (same powder, different name) require a good amount of resistance to burn consistently, its just the nature of the powder given it's heavy detterent coating which is why you cannot safely download it. What I have found is that for heavy for caliber bullets in magnum handgun cartridges, it is an excellent powder if not the best. But for light for caliber bullets, you will get wide velocity swings and poor accuracy. It's downright spooky when you add more powder and velocity drops, which is what I've seen with H-110 with light for caliber bullets, not to mention velocities varying by 10% in a 5 shot string.

If you don't want to waste your W-296, then get some 180 or 200 gr cast bullets for your 357.

[ioon44]

I don't know what barrel length ioon44 is using, but it takes a case full of 296 to get 1400 fps from my 6 inch S&W. I might get another 250-300 fps from my Rossi, but that has a 20 inch barrel. Speer shows 18.3 grains as their STARTING load for their 125 grain Gold Dot 357 load. Still, I would not use 296 for this use. I can just about guarantee leading, poor accuracy from incomplete combustion, or both.
I would save the 296 for gas checked Hard boolits or condoms and use something a bit more cast friendly. Given that these boolits will also go in you 9mm, you might take a look at Power Pistol. 10 grains will fling them out of your 357 at a pretty good clip, while 5.0 grains will do well in your 9mm. However, you may find that you have to seat that boolit deep to get it to feed, in which case I'd drop my powder charge by at least 10%.
FWIW, My personal experience with this particular boolit has been stinky, at least in the 9 mm.

My info came from Hodgdon reloading data using a 10" barrel. I have no desire to run a load like this.

[Boolseye]

I have to say, having tried 2400 (a faster powder than 296) with 125 grain boolits in the .357: Don't bother. I recall that was a tiresome afternoon of full-house flamethrowers combined with squibs and powder-puff loads, depending on whether the 2400 took off or not. Go with Unique, 231 or the like. Save the 296 for heavier bullets, and don't load it down. FWIW, Unique will work great for you with those 125s.

[gonefsng]

guys, new to this forum, been reading a lot of the threads and I keep coming across references to "Quick Loads" what is it, is it available and how do I get my hands on it?

[osteodoc08]

That is not an advisable combo. Not only will the velocity be too high for that boolit, you will also have excessive forcing cone wear and erosion. I'd use a faster powder for this purpose.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Lee moulds are only 25-27 bucks for a 2 cavity get a heavier one for the 357

[Larry Gibson]

I've been loading under commercial 158 grainers... but I can not find any published info on using 296 with a 125 grain cast boolit.. is there a reason for this?

As already mentioned the 125 gr cast have neither the mass (bullet weight) nor the friction for 296 to ignite and burn consistently. I suggest you use the 296 with the 158 gr bullets and get a more efficient powder for the 125 gr bullets like Bullseye or Unique.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

If you don't see a load listed with a powder and bullet/boolit combo it is probably because it does not work within the parameters the powder or bullet company want. W296/H110 and Blue Dot are some powders that need to be loaded with data from a manual. Make sure current data is used with Blue Dot loads from Alliant Powder Company.

[Boolseye]

guys, new to this forum, been reading a lot of the threads and I keep coming across references to "Quick Loads" what is it, is it available and how do I get my hands on it?
Quick loads is a computer program that calculates reloading data in a given caliber with a given bullet and powder. Someone else will chime in with more detail, I imagine. It's not cheap, a lot of guys like it.

[Shiloh]

That mold for me gives fine accuracy at the shorter to mid handgun ranges.
You better have a hard alloy if driving them over about 1300-1400.

Shiloh

[swmass]

Thanks for all the input guys, its always nice to have a second opinion. After throwing some of you guys ideas around it really just doesnt make sense to use such a light bullet with a powder thats gonna be throwing it that fast... I just dug out an old pound of titegroup from before I switched to bullseye that im gonna try out for the lighter bullets and burn up the 296 with some more commercial 158s.

[Grump]

How fast do you wanna go?

Winchester itself has always published 125-gr loads for .357 Magnum with 296. They will recoil like 158-gr loads, but so did Remington 125-gr loads when I bought factory ammo.

As far as I can tell, there is no powder that can give top velocities in that Magnum without a heap of flash.

Blast? Come on, what do you expect? You can't get a 35k chamber pressure load to drop down to .38 Special pressures at the muzzle. Anything full-power will be loud. Just wear proper personal protective equipment.

I don't get leading with the Oregon Trail boolits. Yes, they are hard. But everywhere else here on Cast Boolits, the Mantra is that boolit fit is more important than lube, but a decent lube is also needed to prevent leading. RandyRat's Tac #1 prevents any leading in .357 for me at 1,200 fps with 148-gr SWCs that are only BHN 8 (okay, the SAECO tester might be off and what I'm casting might be closer to BHN 10-12, but that's still far from Linotype).

I went with the Oregon Trail 125s because my carry load is also a 125-gr pill, and I wanted my practice/blasting/competition loads to shoot to the same POI and keep me tuned for those carry loads. Works great. The main reason I'm also using the 148s in .357 right now is the 4-cavity mould and no success (yet) with the RCBS 124-gr RNs I'm trying to NOT gas check...

Mind your Ps and Qs and you really can use that 296 at full power in .357 with 125s and without filling your barrel with lead fouling.

[rsrocket1]

guys, new to this forum, been reading a lot of the threads and I keep coming across references to "Quick Loads" what is it, is it available and how do I get my hands on it?

Quickload is an interior ballistics program. You can "test" various combinations of bullets, powders, charge weights and barrel lengths to "predict" what-if situations. It is only and estimation tool, but is usually pretty accurate so if you go for mid-range loads, you can expect fairly good results. It is invaluable for determining whether a particular powder is suitable for the caliber you are shooting. With some experience, you can immediately tell whether a powder would be a good fit or be avoided in the gun you are interested in. It is limited to the powders in their database, but there are quite a few. Here is their website. You can download a demo that has only a couple of fake powders and guns, but everything else works.

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

[swmass]

Ha, you really make me wanna try it Grump... I do like to learn from experience...I was also told 158 grain lead and 296 was a no-no and I proved that wrong myself (16 bnh). I also think some of the published data has to be overstated...I don't have a chronograph but it does seem that loads always say they are higher velocity than the guys with chronographs on here claim, although I'm not about to start creeping up past max listings. I'm a big boy and don't think I'll be blowing myself up if I can help it:grin:. I dont mind a little blast... Thats why I wanted 296 in 357 anyway, I use my 38 wadcutters for my bunny farts. I've got the powder and the bullets, lead can always be cleaned. I'll post my results once I get out to the range.

[jonp]

Ha, you really make me wanna try it Grump... I do like to learn from experience...I was also told 158 grain lead and 296 was a no-no and I proved that wrong myself (16 bnh). I also think some of the published data has to be overstated...I don't have a chronograph but it does seem that loads always say they are higher velocity than the guys with chronographs on here claim, although I'm not about to start creeping up past max listings. I'm a big boy and don't think I'll be blowing myself up if I can help it:grin:. I dont mind a little blast... Thats why I wanted 296 in 357 anyway, I use my 38 wadcutters for my bunny farts. I've got the powder and the bullets, lead can always be cleaned. I'll post my results once I get out to the range.

Did i mention i tried a couple in a snub nosed sp101? Make sure there are no low hanging trees around. I bet the fireball could have been seen from the space shuttle