Smelting accident: pot collapses

[Elkins45]

Prolific High Road contributor rcmodel posted pix from an accident where a guy's smelting pot collapsed and poured a bunch of hot lead on his driveway and into his open top shoe.

Thread with pix is here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=793300

[rancher1913]

can't view photos unless your a member there.

[JSnover]

Wow. I don't need to see it to believe it.

[Elkins45]

I copied the pix. The third one is the foot. It's not horrible but it did make me cringe a bit, so don't scroll if you are really squeamish.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/C712DC0B-EC1A-4B5E-B461-5421D0195283_zps4rdrvapi.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/C712DC0B-EC1A-4B5E-B461-5421D0195283_zps4rdrvapi.jpg.html)

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/4EE3F9D9-D56F-4D98-B3B7-F70CE0ABFCB8_zpsz8sx9egn.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/4EE3F9D9-D56F-4D98-B3B7-F70CE0ABFCB8_zpsz8sx9egn.jpg.html)

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/9DC13B53-E9EB-4831-B9FF-3F9464FE8A9A_zpsrn6thvcu.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/9DC13B53-E9EB-4831-B9FF-3F9464FE8A9A_zpsrn6thvcu.jpg.html)

[dilly]

Ouch.

I wonder what equipment failure caused this? Aluminum pot? Pot get too heavy for the burner?

I find it highly desirable that this doesn't happen to me.

[Jim_P]

Had a similar problem with my new pot tipping before I had a good grip on it. But, I had the right clothing on and suffered no burns. But my back deck got shiny until I scraped it all off....

[MarkP]

WOW! He is a very lucky man it could have been much worse.

[dragon813gt]

I commented in that thread. That guy is an idiot. There is no excuse for not wearing proper PPE. A minimum is a natural fiber long sleeve shirt, long pants and leather boots. You have to be a complete and utter moron to wear those type of shoes around molten metal. You should see the FR clothing I have to wear to work on anything greater than 50v in some plants. Better to be fully protected.

In case you aren't aware. ABSOLUTELY NO SYNTHETIC MATERIALS SHOULD BE WORN WHEN WORKING W/ MOLTEN LEAD.

[bangerjim]

There is one born every minute! And they reproduce.......AND vote!

Surprised he did not get any in his mouth...being a mouth-breather. :bigsmyl2:

[leeggen]

looks like the legs collapsed on the burner, pot I think was way to big for the burner setup.JMO
CD

[OS OK]

It looks like he already went after those toes with a hammer…what did they do to deserve his wrath?

[Doc Highwall]

Lead weighs just over 23lbs per quart, care to guess how many quarts his pot was holding!

[RogerDat]

That pot has a narrow based and wide top. That would be sort of the opposite of stable. Considering how heavy lead is that pot would be pretty top heavy and weigh more than most burner stands would support. Aside from those of you that weld really well or build a pot support with solid brick..... Not sure what would hold that up.

Maybe I'm just clumsy but after a casting session I have seen drips of lead on my leather work boots or small splatters on my leather apron or my denim pant leg. I'm guessing that open shoes or shorts would have made those little drips memorable learning experiences about the value of protective gear. Except that I was learned better than that in my younger days by a whole host of older shop and construction workers or factory rats who could be most abrupt and rude if one ignored safe practice.

[Jtarm]

I hate crocs.

Learned my lesson 15 years ago when I dropped a razor-sharp 1 1/2" bench chisel on my sandaled right foot. I was lucky to get out of the ER with just 6 stitches in my second toe. Had the edge dropped 90-degrees to my foot ,I'd be known as ol nine toes (maybe eight.)

Now it's steel-toed work boots in the shop.

[mongoose33]

How fast do you think the shoe came off that foot?

I still have mark just above my right knee from being tired and moving a mold w/ a molten sprue puddle with less care than I should have--and spilling it on my knee (I was sitting). That was through denim.

[freebullet]

Crocs...Lol...crocs.

Yep, here's your sign.

I hope he heals quickly and well. Um...I can't wait to see what he does next?

[Petrol & Powder]

There is one born every minute! And they reproduce.......AND vote!

Surprised he did not get any in his mouth...being a mouth-breather. :bigsmyl2:

Agree completely!

I feel sorry for people that suffer from mere accidents. Suffering from stupidity doesn't earn you the same sympathy.

[warpspeed]

I don't gear up in all the Nomex and everything but I'd never wear sandals, Crocs or go barefoot. That is just asking for pain.

[dragonrider]

I wonder if he fries bacon while naked>:shock:

[edler7]

I wonder if he fries bacon while naked>:shock:

I think he's more of an operate a lathe while wearing a necktie kind of guy.

[emorris]

No need to bash the guy. Yea he made a bad decision, but who here never has?

[NavyVet1959]

No need to bash the guy. Yea he made a bad decision, but who here never has?

There's "bad" decisions ... and there's REALLY BAD decisions...

I just wish there had been a video of the incident posted on YouTube so that we could see how fast someone can move when a pot of molten lead is headed towards his foot.

The only way I would even consider wearing Crocks while smelting would be if I was standing in a couple of feet of water.

He definitely needs a wider base on that pot so that it would be less likely to tip over. Most burners do not have stands that are strong enough for that sort of weight, so separating issue of support for the pot and support for the burner would be highly advised. Concrete (cinder) blocks with solid metal bars across them work well for a pot support. The blocks are very strong in compression as long as you orient the holes in the blocks vertically and not horizontally.

[2wheelDuke]

In case you aren't aware. ABSOLUTELY NO SYNTHETIC MATERIALS SHOULD BE WORN WHEN WORKING W/ MOLTEN LEAD.

With the exception of Nomex maybe. I cast in Ove Glves, but use lined leather to smelt.

[Oreo]

You guys have it all wrong. Crocs are great for this because they allow the molten lead to flow through and out of the shoe unlike boots which would trap molten lead in next to the foot.

Kidding, of course. ;)

Another forum I was on, a guy burned his foot this way and had to get a silver-dollar sized skin graft. Healing took months. Be careful out there folks.

[Hickory]

Somehow, I can't bring myself to feel sorry for him.

[NavyVet1959]

Somehow, I can't bring myself to feel sorry for him.

Well, maybe for having worn too tight of shoes in his youth such that it created such a case of hammer toes?

[dragon813gt]

With the exception of Nomex maybe. I cast in Ove Glves, but use lined leather to smelt.

People complain about having to pay for the smallest of items. I wasn't going to bring FR gear into the conversation. Everyone should have a pair of jeans and boots.

[NavyVet1959]

People complain about having to pay for the smallest of items. I wasn't going to bring FR gear into the conversation. Everyone should have a pair of jeans and boots.

Agreed... And if the jeans are loose fitting on the legs, that's all the better. And you definitely would want the legs of the jeans to go OVER the top of the boots (especially if they are the type you slip on instead of lace up).

I've been known to sometimes not wear protective gear when welding small tasks. Usually, I get away with it, but the t-shirt that I usually wear when welding has a lot of burn holes in it and at one time or another, there was a nice little burn scar on my torso corresponding to each of those holes. Luckily, my skin tends to heal without scarring, so they didn't leave much in the way of permanent marks. Even though molten lead is quite a bit cooler than molten steel, the potential for major damage with lead is greater in my opinion since we are working with such large quantities of it at any one time.

[lightman]

I commented on that thread also. I'm not going to beat the guy up, he made a mistake and he is going to suffer some because of it. I hope he recovers quickly. I'm sorry the guy got hurt, but by posting about things like this others may learn.

I don't go overboard on safety, but I wear loose jeans outside of leather boots (no Crocks here), a long sleeve shirt (FR because I have them), leather gloves and safety glasses. I smelt inside my shop but I run a large exhaust fan with the doors open. I also keep an ice chest near with some cold water and a towel, just in case I need to cool a burn off. My burner stand will hold the weight of the front of my tractor.

[SharpsShooter]

Some folks learn by reading, others learn by watching and that we have the last group that has to learn the hard way by peeing on the fence. There is an entire chain of events that could have been done differently and completely alleviate the danger. All of those require a bit of forethought which appears to be the element that is absent from this gentleman's project.

SS

[ioon44]

Having the pot set up in the building is not a good situation either.

Glad he was not hurt any worse.

[Smoke4320]

That's going to leave a mark !!
Should have know better on the shoes for sure ..
The pot unstable should have also been obvious

The weight of the lead verses the structural load bearing abilities ...Well DUH

accidents like this hopefully remind us all how easy it is to get hurt in our sport .. a couple thoughtless or rushed moments can spell real trouble

[1_Ogre]

If you are gonna cast, be sure your prepared. Open toed shoes definately are not on the list of required items to wear. Seems he had a mismatch on his smelting pot also, probably was on a plastic milk carton box

[waksupi]

Looks like a case of damn foolishness.

[Tackleberry41]

That whole set up was just an accident waiting to happen. You want to feel sorry for the guy, I know very well how bad burns can hurt, a helo crash. But when it comes to something like molten lead, there are some bare minimum safety precautions you need to take. Just like welding exposed skin is kept to a minimum. Sandels, shorts are just not what you wear when casting, yea its hot, but even a small drop will teach you a lesson pretty quick. Some only seem to learn the hard way.

[John Allen]

I commented in that thread. That guy is an idiot. There is no excuse for not wearing proper PPE. A minimum is a natural fiber long sleeve shirt, long pants and leather boots. You have to be a complete and utter moron to wear those type of shoes around molten metal. You should see the FR clothing I have to wear to work on anything greater than 50v in some plants. Better to be fully protected.

In case you aren't aware. ABSOLUTELY NO SYNTHETIC MATERIALS SHOULD BE WORN WHEN WORKING W/ MOLTEN LEAD.


When I am smelting I go all out. I wear leather and a welders cap along with an apron. I have seen to many people hurt themselves not to be careful. I would rather be sweaty than burnt.

[jeepyj]

Poor decision for sure but he'll have to live with that however I'm just hopping that he isn't training others his techniques.
Jeepyj

[Ole Joe Clarke]

Have to look at the bright side of things. Being burned by lead is better than being shot with it.

[Jtarm]

I'm just hopping that he isn't training others his techniques.
Jeepyj

Was "hopping" a Freudian slip? He'll be more than qualified to teach hopping after trying to get around with that foot for a while.

Give the man credit for not hiding his mistake. And sharing the pictures (I hope it was with his consent) for others to learn from.

[Elkins45]

Was "hopping" a Freudian slip? He'll be more than qualified to teach hopping after trying to get around with that foot for a while.

Give the man credit for not hiding his mistake. And sharing the pictures (I hope it was with his consent) for others to learn from.

Yeah. I'm betting smelting outfit 2.0 will be a significant improvement.

[jeepyj]

Was "hopping" a Freudian slip? He'll be more than qualified to teach hopping after trying to get around with that foot for a while.

Give the man credit for not hiding his mistake. And sharing the pictures (I hope it was with his consent) for others to learn from.

I had to look it up."Freudian slip" I originally wasn't trying to be funny but after re-reading I laughed for five minutes. Sometimes I should re-read prior to hitting the post button

[RogerDat]

Yeah it is not "funny" that someone that is participating in our hobby got hurt. And accidents do happen but .... come on crocks to wear while casting molten metal? I'll give small props for sharing as long as the original post was not all about "look what bad luck I had". Early after I found this forum I asked about what has gone wrong and how can it be avoided. Most of those posts started with when "I forgot to.... and then ", or "was not being careful and...". In short honest assessments of what they could have done differently to probably avoid the accident. Some were clearly in the realm of things you would not tend to think of such as sweaty palm making an ingot wet enough to call the fairy. Or condensation issues, or getting distracted and having a drip-o-matic make a mess while you were busy not paying attention. In short these are honest mistakes owned up to and learned from, and shared so that those that don't need to tinkle on the electric fence to figure out how that works out can benefit from the reported accident.

Spend a 1/2 century doing stuff and unless you are perfect and lucky there will be times when you slip, or the tool does, or something accidental happens. You just don't want to be saying that you tripped over the chair where you left your safety glasses and gloves when you splashed lead all over yourself. If I lose an eye by god I want to at least be able to say it was because the safety glasses broke not because they were laying over on the bench someplace.

Frying bacon naked - that is just too funny! :bigsmyl2:

[truckerdave397]

That pot looks like it was made out of a tube type truck rim.

[c1skout]

That's not a truck wheel..... but it does look about that size. I thought maybe an old water heater or air compressor tank? Regardless it's surely much larger than a 20lb propane tank.

[Love Life]

Wow. Just wow.

[Stewbaby]

Surprised his foot don't look worse.

[GabbyM]

Yes I was thinking I'd see a foot not attached anymore. He may still loose that foot. I feel sorry for the guy as he is in for some serious pain. Obvious he has low comprehension of structural strength of assemblies. Way to big of a pot. All that means is he's no engineer. Looks like something a doctor would do.

[kryogen]

Seriously, molten lead wearing sandals.... Thats an idiot.

[NavyVet1959]

Surprised his foot don't look worse.

Maybe he thought that Nomex socks were all he needed? :)

[Stewbaby]

...Way to big of a pot. All that means is he's no engineer. Looks like something a doctor would do.

Might be one of them imaginary or sparky engineers (IE) [emoji12]

[S. Galbraith]

That's looks painful. I always wear boots, jeans, long sleeves, gloves, and a face protector when casting. Not worth the risk. Get a AC unit if it gets too hot.

[mac60]

That's pretty bad! I hope he learned his lesson. I'm a little bit curious about the rest of his attire on that day - shorts and a wife beater? Maybe talking on his cell phone and got a little bit distracted and couldn't get out of the way in time.

[S. Galbraith]

That's pretty bad! I hope he learned his lesson. I'm a little bit curious about the rest of his attire on that day - shorts and a wife beater? Maybe talking on his cell phone and got a little bit distracted and couldn't get out of the way in time.

Which beer was he working on too?

[leadman]

Maybe the toenail fungus will be gone by the time he is healed up. There many things in the photos that are just not good practice. That foot will probably get worse before it gets better.

[Catshooter]

Looks like an aluminum leg to support the pot.

Schools should be teaching us to ask: "What could go wrong?"

And in the What could go wrong department, is that a lead-covered rubber propane hose I see in the lower right of the pic? Just how bad could that have gotten?


Cat

[lightman]

At first I thought it was a water hose, but his shop looks like it may be in the country. If so, it could be a propane hose from a large bulk tank. It sure is a large pot for such a wimpy looking burner! Hope the guy is healing ok.

[RogerDat]

If you open the picture and hit ctl - + you can enlarge the picture for clarity. In that you can clearly see a fairly long straight leg sticking out from under the pot, this makes one think there was some sort of stand with legs. Long spindly legs. I would say zoomed in the "base" is not even part of the pot but part of the stand.

You can see what looks like a pile of skimming and dross in the foreground toward the left. Then there is a wood piece in the background with a groove, has a weed burner sitting on it attached to the long hose. Along with a shovel laying in the puddle, possibly for skimming dross OR for adding material. Looks like a set up cobbled together for bulk processing.

I wonder if there was a homemade stand with a weed burner or turkey fryer stand plus a weed burner. Never seen one of those fryer stands that could take that weight, the one leg visible does not look large enough and does not appear to have any side bracing. Legs would have to be wider (by a lot) or be tied together at the bottom and with angle bracing.

Shovel if adding material to a molten pot is a good way to meet the tinsel fairy but I don't see any sign of lead going in all directions, just down and in the one direction. If skimming or stirring I would think it would pull a lot of weight and momentum around toward the side, good way to tip a wide top heavy pot or create peak or side load on the legs. Combined with the shovel laying right in the middle of the lead I'm guessing the person was stirring or skimming the pot when it went over.

As bad as that set up was and as bad as the resulting mess is the most basic of safety practices would probably have left nothing but a mess to clean up. Leather boots and jeans would probably have managed most of the risk and prevented most of the injuries. Now having a poor set up may be inviting trouble but stuff can go wrong for even the most careful of us. You don't have to care about life jacket until something goes wrong with the boat.

[jmorris]

How fast do you think the shoe came off that foot?


If the sound coming from his mouth didn't drown it out I bet one could have heard the sonic crack.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Looks like flimsy legs on the stand.

I got on top of my stand (while holding onto the wooden fence), and did a dynamic weight test of the stand. I was 265 lbs then, and the stand passed without any wobbling or flexing. My smelting pot is the bottom half of a propane tank, which has that bottom ring that acts as a support too. I don't think I've every had it more than one-half full.

I prefer to wear my boots when casting. And, the heavy cotton pants leg are over the top so nothing can be poured into the top of the boot. Seems like a no-brainer.

[Ola]

Just a week ago a beginner caster sent me a picture of his self made smelting pot. I replied with a question: " are you sure those flimsy looking legs can take the weight?"

He responded after he had smelted the first batch of lead:" it seems they can take the weight"..

[NavyVet1959]

What a lot of people fail to realize is that it's possible for their leg design to be able to hold the weight as long as things are normal and the weight is pressing straight down, but if they are stirring the pot or whatever and the weight shifts, they might not have the bracing that will keep the legs from folding over.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

The question in my mind is was this caused by the lack of school shop in junior high and high school for many years? I've been saved many times by my memory of my junior high shop teacher going on about safety. Thought he was a nagging pain in the rear then, thank him every day now for my whole and complete ten fingers and toes, not to mention the various skills he taught the young men under his tutelage.

[Seeker]

155655
click image

[jsizemore]

Our fellow member looks to have one of these :

http://www.agrisupply.com/cast-iron-wash-stew-pot/p/56691/

If you look a little further on the site you'll see some monsters. The stand comes with the pot and is only meant to keep the pot from tipping with the ground carrying the weight of the pot and it's contents. Stirring and scraping would sure compromise the balance unless the legs were stuck in the ground or reinforced. Big flat bottom would be a better option.

Hopefully our fellow member won't have any permanent nerve or tissue damage. Scar might be OK for bragging rights and/or humility. I'm figuring he was looking out for us.

[DocSavage]

Everytime I hear someone using a Coleman stove to melt lead that's the picture that runs thru my head. I purchased a heavy duty camp stove that looks like a 2 burner gas stove. Runs off a 20 lb propane tank and is very stable. I use a cast iron pot that will hold at least 40 lbs but have never put more than 20 lbs.
I've several scars from sweating pipes and really don't want to have 30+lbs of molten lead landing on any part of my body.

[xd45forever]

Although I agree this guy is an idiot for his choice of safety gear and his setup! I offer another theory, complacency! We get so comfortable with what we are doing we forget the danger!

[pcolapaddler]

Yeah. I'm betting smelting outfit 2.0 will be a significant improvement.
Yep. Saw that hose and the 'weed burner' torch. Good thing the hose wasn't compromised with hot lead while it was lit and the hopping and dropping was happening.

Kind of makes one mindful of the 'humorous' insurance claim involving a generator, gas can and burned house, car etc.

Looks like an aluminum leg to support the pot.

Schools should be teaching us to ask: "What could go wrong?"

And in the What could go wrong department, is that a lead-covered rubber propane hose I see in the lower right of the pic? Just how bad could that have gotten?


Cat

[richhodg66]

It might be from having to wear combat boots as daily footwear my whole adult life, but I don't do much of anything without leather boots on. Any yardwork task, walking around the woods, anything. I don't even walk around the inmdide of the house barefoot much, kind of overly protective of my feet, I guess. I don't like wearing shorts if doing anything serious either, blue jeans are the norm.

Gloves are where I need to be more vigilant. I hate wearing them, and it seems like during a casting session, something comes up that requires some dexterity and I pull them off. I need to work on that.

I agree with Dave's comment about school shop classes. The high school where I teach is fortunate in that it still offers wood shop, but our sister school downtown has basically given it up. Even at my school, it isn't very popular amongst my students (JROTC Cadets) it seems. Not sure when it became the norm to pull vocational training out of public schools, but it sure seems to have happenned. There are so many lessons to be learned even if a kid is planning the college/white collar route.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Just a week ago a beginner caster sent me a picture of his self made smelting pot. I replied with a question: " are you sure those flimsy looking legs can take the weight?"

He responded after he had smelted the first batch of lead:" it seems they can take the weight"..

I think there are legs visible in the photo, and it doesn't matter if they would carry the weight 99% of the time. People melt lead more than a hundred times, and that means the 1% should come up sometime.

We build up an intuitive awareness of how much strain metals will stand, including aluminium and cast zinc alloy. But all bets are off when the metal is heated even well short of melting point. I once did the math on tensile strength and centrifugal force, and proved that bullet jackets can't rupture in the air... when cold. I think leaving the muzzle with the heat of friction makes all the difference.

[typz2slo]

I added support to a turkey fryer stand. The added flat bar is lined up with the pot supports to carry the load evenly. I see nomex mentioned in this thread a few times and I would not recommend it at all. Heavy cotton shirts or leather welding sleeves is better. I use leather welding sleeves. They are hot when casting but not as hot as lead stuck to the skin.
156311

[Dakooz]

I'm pretty safety conscious...

This incident just helps to reinforce it.

[NavyVet1959]

I added support to a turkey fryer stand. The added flat bar is lined up with the pot supports to carry the load evenly.


You might want to rethink that support system. From what I can tell in the photo, you do not have any sort of diagonal support on the legs, so the potential for the legs to fold up on you if you ever put a load on it not perpendicular to the ground is a bit higher. Also, stacking it on cinder blocks is not that safe -- especially since you have the hollow area oriented parallel to the ground.

[Doc Highwall]

I have a stand similar to what is shown in post #70, but I cut the legs down so there is only about 2" of clearance below the burner, enough to get oxygen. My 14 quart Dutch oven is also shallower but wider lowering the center of gravity.

[DrDucati]

Looks like third degree burns that may require some skin grafts to me.

[NavyVet1959]

Sometimes, lateral loads can cause unexpected results... Go to time 4:26 on the following video...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VveNHLZaECw#t=270

[ncbearman]

If you scroll through his pics you see he blew up a 9mm and a 240 Winchester. Looks like double charge with case failure at the base both times. Looks to me like the guy needs another hobby.

A tip to those setting up with turkey fryer; stand on it. If it holds your good to go.

[NavyVet1959]

A tip to those setting up with turkey fryer; stand on it. If it holds your good to go.

Maybe stand on it and dance around so you put some lateral loads on it.

[ncbearman]

Maybe stand on it and dance around so you put some lateral loads on it.

Also I may should have clarifiied, stand on it "when its cold and not in use" haha

[NavyVet1959]

Also I may should have clarifiied, stand on it "when its cold and not in use" haha

If not, then the "dance around on it" will probably automatically be taken care of. :)