Loadmaster guru wanted.

[jmorris]

A member of another forum sent me a Loadmaster he has given up on and I have a first glance this afternoon.

The case feeder was lost and it looks like the primer feeder is third generation.

There are 4 indexer/flippers and a new indexer, micrometer charge bar along with disks and measure. The shuttle and 1/4" rod are here and the toggle that connects them, a few risers, 19s shell plate and a tool head. I happen to have an extra set of Lee 9mm dies on hand.

What at else do you see from a first glance I might need before I start to play?

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151209_162006_609_zpsjbh8h2xz.jpg

Don't need "a cool head" or "patients", looking for hard parts I don't know about.

[dragon813gt]

You can view all the parts on their site. It's broken down by the cartridge it's set up to load. Here is the link for the 9mm setup: http://leeprecision.com/parts/reloading-presses/progressive-presses/load-master-reloading-press/load-master-9mm-luger-parts/

Instruction manual if you don't have one: http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/LM3231.pdf

[44Vaquero]

Black priming chute is for small primers, red is for large.

http://leeprecision.com/parts/reloading-presses/progressive-presses/progressive-press-accessories/on-press-priming/lm-lg-primer-feed-parts/

Aside from the case feeder parts being absent, it looks like everything you need is present. You might want to visit Daveinflowerybranch's brand new ground up rebuilt of a Load Master! If you believe in going overboard it's a good place to start!

Any questions feel free to ask my LM has been in regular use since 1992!

[jmorris]

Dave answered some my questions in a recent thread, just trying to shorten the curve a bit for my winter project. Watched a few videos already, looks like a lot more to play with with the LM, should be a good winter project.

Figured some things would be obvious to the seasoned user, like a photo of a Dillon or LNL might be for me, the LM is new to me though.

I don't plan for it to make it a permanent press on my bench but it could make for a good PIF, once I learn more about them.

If David's thread, you are talking about, isn't one of the current ones, a link would be nice (I didn't want to derail his latest one. Might have sent him some parts I could use but hind sight is 20-20, hope he got them working.

[too many things]

FIRST
are you a mechanic?? do you know how to work on a door lock? if not then the loadmaster is not what you need .
Lee has products that are cheap, many work, like dies. The load master was a nice unit IF you can work out the problems, but they made so many problems that its hard to work one to the next. GOOD luck

This not talk from someone . I have one of the first they made. Lee has changed some from my 100+ calls and yes now they do know me by first name. If the new guy would let some new ideas get past him, Lee could win the reloader world

[dragon813gt]

FIRST
are you a mechanic?? do you know how to work on a door lock? if not then the loadmaster is not what you need .


LOL, you will find out why I'm laughing so hard after you see some of the machines he has designed :laugh:

[Alvarez Kelly]

LOL, you will find out why I'm laughing so hard after you see some of the machines he has designed :laugh:

That was my reaction to the question posed. :-)

[Circuit Rider]

Ditto Dragon and Alvarez, If it hasn't been built, it's only because John hasn't had time to dream it up. CR

[TheDoctor]

Kinda got a chuckle out of that myself. Subscribe to his youtube channel!

[jmorris]

I have figured out a few problems in my days, just know that first hand insight can save time. Thus the thread.

Search and reply or start other threads if you want to bash, I'll join in. Was looking for solutions with this one, with people that use them with success, basically using their knowledge without having to learn everything myself, why I share what I know freely as well.

First actual question, in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Dqpfrt5fI

He shows the "flipper" and index rod and how they work. The one I was given doesn't work like that. He also states "broken in" and the index rod (threaded 1/4" square stock) is new as are the unthreaded "flippers", with the ones I have. The threads in the plastic "flipper" are formed by installing it on the index rod, at least with the ones I have in the bag. Even after I have threaded one on and off a few times and added oil, it takes about 25 in/lb to turn it on the threads. Thinking of running a bottom tap in there but don't know what "a good one" feels like

It doesn't like to index or won't in current form. Ready for my first lesson in the LM, from those " in the know".

Guess I look at it as the day I don't learn something new, will be the day I die.

[44Vaquero]

The rod has a distinct top vs bottom, the worn portion I will call up!

The flipper is pretty tight on mine and does require a wrench to adjust when removed from the press. During press operation it flips back and forth with no noticeable effort.

1st make certain the ram head case ramp is 90 degrees to the press frame and torqued down to the correct spec. Since the index rod uses the frame to work the flipper this adjustment is critical. I also use a little RIG grease on the rod and the shell plate.

Watch the rod as it moves along the frame during the rams up and down stroke, if the flipper is not moving correctly at the bottom of the rams travel it will be jerky feeling.

155297155295155296

[flyingmonkey35]

you can allways give it to me and ill add it to my colllection of loadmasters.



I have had very little success with the priming system. so i gave up on it.



I now prime off the press.

[sparky45]

If everything else fails, go over to www.loadmastervideos.com and I think you can find ALL the answers you're looking for, even answers you haven't thought you'd have a question for. Also within that forum is a link to Mike's Reloading Bench; this guy is an Engineer that's put lots of thought into this press and solved most of the mysteries. LLM is a good press and I know from looking over a number of the projects you've posted you won't have any problem making it hum.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

JMorris,

First, think of the press as a kit, about 90% complete. It'll take tuning, tweaks and adjustments to get it to run like it has the potential to run. I have a lot of pictures taken of what I've done related to improvements and mods, but my business is eating up a lot more time than I thought for this time of year. I actually haven't put out that thread and I need to. I did send you a PM and a link with a video I produced of some "Alpha" modifications I'd done using what I had on hand. (Wish I hadn't tossed all the aluminum and other goodies from where I rebuilt my 86 Aluminum bass boat.)

My first suggestion to you is first, before you do anything at all to attempt to set the press up is to break it complete down, clean any and all grease off, then carefully examine the carrier for burrs, rough spots along with the space the ram rides in (along the edges). Stone, polish everything you can find that you think might cause roughness. Pay particular and close attention to the carrier, but be careful not to overstone the areas the shell plate rides on, especially if you decide it needs to go to Magic Mike for the mods he does. (His mods are for the 3 gen near as I can tell.)

Visit his website at www.mikesreloadingbench.com for multiple ideas on improving function of the press. Most are easily implementable for a man of your skills. I did everything in his mods he gives out for free on the website, but the machining mods he performs on the carrier and the various mods are worth the cost, especially for the time saved me and the improvement in functionality gained.

Next, reassemble with some decent wheel bearing grease on the ram and (lots of opinions here), but I use a bicycle chain wax/teflon lube under the shell plate areas for lube. Make sure to adjust the carrier and that video by conatus is ideal for that. Use a light touch on the torque of the carrier bolt, snug is about good. Polish any shell plates you have, looking out for burrs, nicks, rough machining. Clean those up and see what shell plate it is for. If it's for 9MM, that's another can of worms. Post a pic of the bottom side of the shell plate in this thread so we can see if it's first or second generation. I prefer second, due to the increased contact with the post on the carrier it rotates around.

Don't alter the threads on the index bar. After playing with mine, I've realized they are tight to hold the plastic flipper stable long term. Check and find a "beveled" side to the opposite end of the bar from the flipper. The beveled side goes to the right and should be vertical.

You have most of the parts to the feeder, excepting the tubing, the mounting bolt and the black plastic section at the bottom of the tubing, so you can set up the rest of the feeder using what you have. Identifying which shell plate will tell you which case feeder that press should have, large or small.

Consider eliminating the toilet chain for the powder measure and using a bent wire with a compression spring setup similar to the Dillon device in it's place. There are less expensive mods, but they lose the functionality of the safety device. Lap the powder measure disks and base to eliminate/minimize leakage. Clean everything to insure the manufacturing lubricants were actually removed by the original owner.

For the press to function well, it truly needs to be mounted more solid than a normal press due to the large amount of overhang and small amount of rear mounting surface. It's slightly imbalanced. Consider duplicating Magic Mike's shake brake mod with a section of 1/8" steel or aluminum and a cargo bar from Harbor Freight. You'll need to cut down the bar. I bought Mike's, simply because I didn't have the aluminum or steel on hand and lacked the time to go get it. Put the adjustment of the cargo bar towards the floor. A solid steel mount for the press with a "shake brake" will go a long ways towards resolving many issues with the press by allowing control of the exact amount of shake the primer and powder systems get. Excessive vibration is one thing I found that was clearly affecting the press operations in the powder and priming areas.

I am close to finishing the mods I am doing and will have my press up and running soon. I've already resolved most all issues related to stability, tuning and adjustments. 95% I found on youtube or one of the websites I posted in the thread with the man that recently bought a Loadmaster.

Check your PM's and see if there's a PM I sent you with a link to a picture of my press operating with some "Alpha" mods. I've resolved the questions I had in the PM, but the video will show several things if watched several times.

[jmorris]

Had a chance to play with it a bit yesterday and no matter how far or close the flipper/carrier were rotated in relation to the frame, the first photo shows where the flipper would hop out of the frame (in the best case).

If I added a spring as shown in the second photo it will operate and index. I did notice that some times it would bind going in, where a "double tap" on the handle (just letting off the pressure and go again) would allow it to finish the operation.

I then notice that if I only contacted the ball on the right side of the handle (so force was towards the left) it operated quite well and had no bind. Center or left it would until I polished the cast handle where it contacts the flipper now it indexes smoothly with a left or center force but not right. Only about .030" movement in there but just simple observation on my part.

It could also be due to my added spring, so. What else is there to get it to work as designed.

The indexer was new so is the flipper (there is a bag full of them). I don't see any obvious damage to the carrier but there is a little paint missing where the flipper contacts the angle I the frame.
I tired several different lubes starting with thin oil and went all the way to wheel bearing grease.

[44Vaquero]

Jmorris,

have you checked the shell plate carrier for damage? The side play could be a result of carrier wear or damage?

155392

Try backing the flipper off of the index rod 1 turn? See what happens

[Jal5]

The index rod and flipper work very closely with the alignment of the carrier to the frame too. It seems to be a delicate balance. One tooth off on the carrier to ram fit puts too much or not enough pressure of the rod/flipper against the frame. That stops the indexing. Took 3-4 tries for me to get it just right synched up.

[jmorris]

Jmorris,

have you checked the shell plate carrier for damage? The side play could be a result of carrier wear or damage?

Try backing the flipper off of the index rod 1 turn? See what happens


I didn't see anything obvious to me but I don't have a new one to measure. It really doesn't look like the machine was used much as all, so could just be a defective part. If I back the flipper any further back, I can feel resistance on one of the stations. 4 of 5 are looser than one, I am going to assume that is due to tolerance or lack there of when the posts on the bottom of the shell plate were machined.

If I go any closer to the frame with the flipper its touching and binding any further away and it won't attempt to index.

[44Vaquero]

Jmorris,

Shell plate type old style or new?
155407 or new?155408 I have had more indexing issues with the new style? send it back to Lee!!

This might have been a Friday model, an accumulation of out of spec/tolerance parts?

Also, the play in the handle is unusual, it should run sq and true? You might want to follow Dave's method for truing the press lever?

[sparky45]

The newer shell plates are junk, at least the ones I have had do exactly what jmorris describes. Trying to index with one of the new plates is frustrating.

[jmorris]

The shell plate is the style with the round "posts" on the left of your photos.

The "slop" I am talking about is with the handle horizontal and an indicator on the flipper (see attached photo), from rest if I push the ball from the right (a single finger) the flipper will move towards the press .005" if I do the same in the opposite direction it moves away .025".

If it is not supposed to move at all I might have handle, pin or ram issues because everything is "tight" but I don't have any torque specs either.

The handle in the horizontal position shown, if with two fingers on either side can rock side to side around 1/16" just used a tape measure there, where the lever goes into the ball. This side to side movement is what is causing the ram/carrier rotation.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=155411&d=1449875386

[magic mike]

Loosen the carrier draw bolt. Apply light CCW pressure to the handle to remove the slop from the linkage etc. and hold it there. Position the carrier so the index rod is in the center of the ramp on the frame. Rotate the carrier CW until the bulge on the flipper where the threads are makes LIGHT contact with the ramp on the frame. Holding everything in that relationship, tighten the draw bolt to 75 in/lbs. Holding the index rod with the chamfered edge on the end facing to the right turn the flipper fully onto the index rod. loosen the shellplate nut and re-tighten only enough to prevent the shellplate from rising. Any tighter just binds things up. Insert the rod and cycle the press allowing the handle to seat the index rod. Check to see how much play the shellplate has. If excessive, unscrew the flipper one turn and repeat and re-check the play in the plate. Do this until the plate locks up then turn the flipper back in one turn. Now make sure the little tang on the case ejector is seated in the hole in the shellplate. Do whatever you have to do to keep that little tang as close to the edge of the hole as possible. Polish up the index rod as required and give it and the underside of the shellplate a shot of dry chain lube. At this point the press should index properly with minimal effort.

Reading your posts suggests that you have the older five lug shellplate. This is good. I have found several of the new ones that would index properly on three stations and bind up on the last two. I have been able to fix that by removing a few thousandths of material from the long bosses on the offending stations. Drill press and diamond burr works well for this.

I have a guide listed on my website with all this stuff in it.

mike

[jmorris]

Loosen the carrier draw bolt. Apply light CCW pressure to the handle to remove the slop from the linkage etc. and hold it there. Position the carrier so the index rod is in the center of the ramp on the frame. Rotate the carrier CW until the bulge on the flipper where the threads are makes LIGHT contact with the ramp on the frame

Index,

The position of the handle, on the top of the casting is 30 deg on my machine to have the center of the flipper in the center of the ramp with my initial setting the gap was .027" but the flipper did not rotate on the threads of the indexer. With your adjustments it is .006", due to the ridges in the adjustment.

With this this adjustment it does work without the spring but the flipper bottom turns it on the threads CCW as it passes the ramp on the way up. Then the top turns the flipper CW when it contacts the frame at the top of the stroke. Also a little drag as it passes the ramp on the way up and is moving the flipper around at either end of the stroke.

I assume this this rotation of the flipper on the threads is to be expected and just install a new one when they become loose? I have read that it shouldn't rotate but "works" is different than "should"...

Shell plate,

How I have it set right now it has maybe .005" play on one station, rotation of the shell plate with the index rod all the way in. The other 4 stations are around .010-.025", might cause priming problems.

However, what if I used say a 44 mag die in #1 to deprime the case then put the 9mm size die without a decapping pin in #2 so the case is sized (and centered) as it is being primed. That should eliminate any shell plate slop with the case, assuming the "tool head" and priming pin have a perfect alignment.

[jmorris]

The tang on the ejector on the one I have is also around .050" from the edge of the hole in the shell plate.

Do you open up the square hole in the ejector to fit or do you bend/peen it longer to close the gap?

[Gillie Dog]

With this this adjustment it does work without the spring but the flipper bottom turns it on the threads CCW as it passes the ramp on the way up. Then the top turns the flipper CW when it contacts the frame at the top of the stroke.

You are seeing correct operation of flipper. On up movement the bottom leg of the flipper contacts the frame rotating the flipper a few degrees CCW and at the top the frame lug moves the flipper back so the upper leg is vertical which allows the lower leg to contact the frame on the way down and pull out the indexer. As stated the cylindrical portion of the flipper should just clear or barely touch the frame on the way up. On newer presses there is a machined flat on the frame for the flipper to ride on as it pulls the indexer.

GD

[Gillie Dog]

The tang on the ejector on the one I have is also around .050" from the edge of the hole in the shell plate.

Do you open up the square hole in the ejector to fit or do you bend/peen it longer to close the gap?

The leg on the ejector should be dead flat on the shell plate except for the last 1/8" or so which is bent down to drop into the leading edge of the hole as it passes by. No need to work on the square hole just make the leg flat and pull the leg in a little closer to the center to decrease the clearance to the hole. Always check this with the indexer pushed in to "lock" the shell plate in place.

GD

[44Vaquero]

Jmorris

Congratulations! you are now one of less than 25 or 30 people who have attached a "Dial Indicator" on a Load Master in an attempt to figure out just how they work! Just as a point of reference Lee usually recommends very accurate measurement devices be used like the width of a "Pencil" and the thickness of a "Dime"! :drinks::drinks:

The anti-back lash leg does not need to be in contact with the edge. Some slop is required in the shell indexing. Yes, many users have a universal decapper in station #1 and the sizing die sans de-capper in station #2. This set up often aids greatly in increasing the reliability of the priming system.

When I adjust the priming system/case retainer finger I leave the finger loose and watch how the case moves on the upstroke when the priming lever is inserting the primer. Then I lock the finger down to match. The 9mm/40 cal plate is off slightly radially as others have noted in the past.

[jmorris]

Congratulations! you are now one of less than 25 or 30 people who have attached a "Dial Indicator" on a Load Master in an attempt to figure out just how they work!

I figured " a little bit" or "a tad" depends on who you are talking to. My 4 year old says she will be ready "in a little bit" and 30 minutes later says the same thing. Not unlike how long the duration of "a minute" depends on what side of the bathroom door your on. Just trying to put a quantitave value to qualitative data and you fellows are helping a lot.

What threw me was what I have read of the flipper not moving on the threads and being cheap, not wanting to pay shipping on a $2 part, after I ruined it.

If this is how it is supposed to work, I will carry on.

Video
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/LM/th_VID_20151211_184517_873_zpsj6se0rnt.mp4 (http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/LM/VID_20151211_184517_873_zpsj6se0rnt.mp4)

Assuming what I have that is working is "normal" how many rounds can the flipper work back and forth on the threads of the indexing rod and still work correctly?

[44Vaquero]

Yup! It is working correctly.

The Genius of Lee's strange engineering is often better accepted and not questioned. To answer your question I am only on my 2nd flipper since 1992! Rule #1 of lee progressives NEVER EVER FORCE ANYTHING! I stopped counting rounds when I passed a 250K about a decade or so back.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

JMorris,

Here are some pictures I've taken of a new and "tuned" carrier with a scribe pointing to areas of inspection and correction. Before I made any attempt to adjust the press, I would pull the carrier, do an inspection and correct any issues I found. I say this based on my recent experience with a brand new press and what I found there. Here's a link to a photobucket collection for inspecting and tuning the carrier and the advance bar:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DaveinOakwoodGA/library/Loadmaster%20Tuning%20Pictures

Note: This carrier has all of Magic Mike's mods he performs for the primer system upgrade as well as tuning I've done. There are also mods I'm doing that are in progress. Ignore the ones I've done, they're not complete, but should be by Monday of next week.

Here are a couple of very useful tuning vids from youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fapHz2sLmRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQIWUeTJJxI

Once you've done these things, you'll be reasonably sure your parts are correct and don't have any manufacturing issues. It's the "prepare the kit" part I mentioned earlier.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but the lever mechanism needs to be taken apart and inspected the same way. You may find one or more "wave washers." After looking at my setup and inspecting it's operation carefully, I realized the entire mechanism was tilted (I originally had one wave washer.) because the one wave washer it had was affecting alignment. So I ordered three more and when I put it back together, I put one at every axle pin. Mechanism is now square and much, much smoother in operation. I also did the fluff and buff with files, stones and wet/dry sandpaper (600-1500 grit).

The items mentioned above helped a great deal. I sincerely believe the press cannot be be adjusted to operate at it's potential without doing these simple tuning steps. After doing them, I've not noticed a need to repeat adjustments and I can see I've prevented unnecessary long term wear, because the flashing/machine marks/etc are no longer affecting operation.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Forgot to mention: In the video you posted, someone has painted over with touch up paint an area the advance bar flipper rides over. In doing so, they've actually created a problem area. Underneath that paint is a small machined "flat" that is part of the advance bar's movement. It would have been better to use fine sand paper or a stone to gently break the sharp edges there and not paint it. I suggest removing the touch up paint in that area.

Also, if you have a buffing wheel and some 400 grit paste, remove the handle and buff the roughness from where it was sandblasted. Makes the press a lot more comfortable.

[Gillie Dog]

If this is how it is supposed to work, I will carry on.

Carry on. "You done good."

Do like Mike said and adjust the flipper out one turn at a time until you get shell plate "lock" in one station and in the others the plate moves a "tad/little bit" and you are done with index adjustment. You might have to go back in one turn if it "locks" to hard to allow smooth operation.

Carry on.

GD

[Fire_Medic]

Gentleman,

I want to thank you for your responses here.

Dave thanks for your patience with me via PM, I will be ordering my LM tomorrow and already ordered the turret and brace from Mike, and Titan will be sending him the parts direct for the primer mods.

I'm joining the ranks of the Lee LM and appreciate having the support here for information to get it going without all the hosility I see everywhere else on stuff pertaining to Lee.

God Bless

[jmorris]

Rule #1 of lee progressives NEVER EVER FORCE ANYTHING!

Good advise with any press that I have used.

Thanks to everyone, be back to bother you at the next step.

[Gillie Dog]

Gentleman,

I want to thank you for your responses here.

Dave thanks for your patience with me via PM, I will be ordering my LM tomorrow and already ordered the turret and brace from Mike, and Titan will be sending him the parts direct for the primer mods.

I'm joining the ranks of the Lee LM and appreciate having the support here for information to get it going without all the hosility I see everywhere else on stuff pertaining to Lee.

God Bless

I bought a used one the other day with less than 80 rounds through it because he could not make it work. Indexing was never adjusted as just done here, the carrier draw bolt was still just snug as it comes from the factory, not tight, and the turret was one of the bad batch Lee had. Lee replaced the turret, no questions asked, adjustments were made and it is pumping out well made cartridges. (As full disclosure, I use Mike's priming system and do other of his modifications myself to complete the work.) From what you say you are doing you will have a very nice machine which will produce lots of quality cartridges for you.

GD

[Fire_Medic]

I bought a used one the other day with less than 80 rounds through it because he could not make it work. Indexing was never adjusted as just done here, the carrier draw bolt was still just snug as it comes from the factory, not tight, and the turret was one of the bad batch Lee had. Lee replaced the turret, no questions asked, adjustments were made and it is pumping out well made cartridges. (As full disclosure, I use Mike's priming system and do other of his modifications myself to complete the work.) From what you say you are doing you will have a very nice machine which will produce lots of quality cartridges for you.

GD

Thanks GD that's very reassuring

[sparky45]

The leg on the ejector should be dead flat on the shell plate except for the last 1/8" or so which is bent down to drop into the leading edge of the hole as it passes by. No need to work on the square hole just make the leg flat and pull the leg in a little closer to the center to decrease the clearance to the hole. Always check this with the indexer pushed in to "lock" the shell plate in place.

GD
This is the correct way to fit the ejector. In your pic (jmorris) your ejector appears to be "humped up" in the middle ahead of where it dumps into the hole(s).

[jmorris]

This is the correct way to fit the ejector. In your pic (jmorris) your ejector appears to be "humped up" in the middle ahead of where it dumps into the hole(s).

It is, will tinker with it some more when I get a little more time.

[zomby woof]

Timing is everything

[jmorris]

Well, I got a little impatient today waiting on some parts. The fellow that gave it to me recommended that I replace the primer feed because a dirt dauber built a home in it but I decided to give it a try just to see what I was about to get into. I only loaded 20 rounds but it worked fine after I set the depth.

Looks like one thing less I will have to mess with. Will update when the other case feed parts and the Hornady bullet feeder make it here.

[jmorris]

Funny, right after I posted the primer system and case feed arrived. Opened it up and the primer system is a newer version than the one on the machine now and I realized I had a spring missing on the anvil.