MO Bullets 158SWC Action! and JM marked 1894 357 accuracy - Help!

[wbrco]

Folks -

I've been trying to develop a "100YD" load for my non-microgroove 1894 in .357 with these bullets.

No matter what load I've tried, they just open way up past 50 yards. Not the gun or the shooter:

I've tried:

H4227
H110
BlueDot

I also have HP38, Universal and Red Dot, but I don't think these are in the right burn rate range for this application.

No matter what I do they just are all over the place past 50 Yds. Yet, If I do Jwords, I can keep them in a 6" circle @100 yds (15.5Grs H110 under Montana Gold 158gr HP).

Funny thing is that the light .38 loads @ 25 and 50 Yds print tight.

I bought these by mistake (they are the 18bhn bullets), but want to use them up.

I've tried light crimps, heavy crimps, using the Lee FCD, light loads, heavy loads (I've read that these need to be driven hard..) etc. etc. etc. and just can't seem to get anywhere near the accuracy I want.

Doesn't seem to be a big issue with my 7" NMBH, but I'm not shooting it past 25 yards.

Anybody have a pet load for this bullet/rifle that works well @ 100 yds?

I also have cast up some 358156's from WW, but I use these "plain" as I don't have GC's (and was trying to avoid using/buying them). These work great over HP38 and BlueDot in .38 cases in this rifle. Good enough to squirrel hunt with.

Before anyone asks:
I have not slugged the barrel. Little leery of trying to do this on a rifle barrel due to length.
I don't have any leading that I can see. I've done the ChoreBoy/Bronze brush/Kroil cleaning method and haven't seen any lead chips either.
Brass is mixed. Doesn't seem to make much difference.

Thanks for any advice!

[FergusonTO35]

What size are your boolits? Even though your rifle is not micro groove it may still prefer a larger boolit. You might want to try a gas check boolit if possible. The powders you mention work way better with a gas check boolit in my 1894. Another thing: Missouri's blue boolit lube isn't that great in my experience. You might try scraping it out and relubing with something better. Dipping in LLA works really well in fact.

[Nobade]

Not the same boolit, but I get very good results with 7.0gr. Blue Dot in my rifle using the RD 175. That's way below 357 mag level loads, but plenty powerful to knock down the 100M rams. Same load works in 38 Spl.

Using smokeless powder, that Ranch Dog boolit works better than anything I have tried due to its fat nose that seals the bore before the other end has left the case. Everything else of normal weight seems to get gas cut and shoots poorly at 100M. The RCBS 200gr. rifle boolit shoots very well also, out to 200M loaded over 2400 but it's too long to feed through the magazine so must be single loaded.

-Nobade

[JSH]

I use a stiff dose of lil gun and a 180 GC bullet. 4-5"@200, 1 1/2"@100. The harder I push it the better it liked it.
I myself have not seen a lot to rave about with 158's, with the 358311 being the exception.

[Larry Gibson]

If those commercial bullets have a BB then your not going to get accuracy with them at magnum velocity. You've pretty much discovered that fact. Try working with the same load you use with the un gas checked 358156s only with magnum cases.

You might spend the money for 1K GCs for your 358156s. You'll find they can shoot as well if not better than jacketed in your lever gun. 1K worth of GCs will last a long time if used for serious loads and not "plinkers". In the long run shooting a GC'd bullet w/o the GC is about like having that 600+ HP Corvette and running regular gas in it. The performance you get is all you're going to get. You've an excellent bullet in that 358156 but w/o GCs it's performance is not what you should be getting.

You might give some thought to getting a 358477 or Lee TL358-158-SWC for your plinking loads. Either of them will actually perform better for your low end loads and the 358156 can then be used for your top end magnum loads.

Larry Gibson

[jmort]

I bet your gun would like a cast bullet around .360" not .358"

[FergusonTO35]

I find that aluminum gas checks work great on all my boolits, most of which are a plain base design.

[JesterGrin_1]

I bet your gun would like a cast bullet around .360" not .358"


As noted if wishing for high end loads then H-110 will work great in Magnum brass and of course Magnum Primers along with a Gas Check and as said sized to at least .360.

[wbrco]

Anybody want to do a PIF for some gas checks? I probably only need 25 to test.

I tumble lube with 45/45/10 for everything.

I assume 1 light coat, let dry size and install gc then lube again?

[GhostHawk]

My .357 mag is a single shot handi rifle. I have a target on my wall where at 50 y 3 boolits went through a single hole.

I am mostly using the lee .358 158 gr round nose with 4.5 grains of Red Dot. It will still print reasonable groups at 100, but they are at least 4-5 times as big as at 50, and they should only be double.

Like you I tried IMR 4227 and got good speed by slightly less accuracy.
I am able to cheat a bit with mine, it has a long chamber and good lead in, so it is able to chamber a boolit set long in .360dw brass. Not in the rifling, but right at the point of touching it.

I think it is simply the nature of the beast, harmonics may have something to do with it.
Or maybe it is slowing enough to drop through the subsonic.

[snaketail]

I have the same rifle and the Missouri bullets shoot fine for me. Try 5.7gr of Unique and a good crimp. 4227 is ok for heavy bullets, but not for anytning lighter then 180gr.

And disregard all the blabber you get from those who cast their own...I stopped pouring lead a year ago and using "MoBulletCoated" 125s and I'm not going back to casting my own.

[JesterGrin_1]

All I could find on the Missouri Bullets web site for the .38 SP/.357 Magnum were bullets sized at .358 of which for many firearms is to small. Some people can get away with a .359 but most need a bullet sized at .360 to get the best performance from there rifle. As most bores on rifles will have a larger bore than pistols.

[FergusonTO35]

Wbrco, I woukd be happy to share some aluminum checks and maybe even a few boolits with you. PM me your address.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Not the same rifle but my ruger 77/357 will not shoot semi wad cutters with one exception it will shoot some speer semi jacketed semi wad cutter hollow point 146 grain prety well and smoking fast but that bullet has been discontinued and ive got like 20 rounds of them left :-( it try a round flat nose or wide flat nose bullet and.see what that gets you.

[wbrco]

Well, considering I've got about 700 of these, I've got to figure out something.

The intent was to have a round that would work on anything I might find on my NE MO farm, including whitetail up to max 100yds.

Since IMHO regardless of what MO Dept. Conservation says we have resident cougars (one shot 5 miles away), coyotes, cattle rustling etc. Yet be cheap to plink with too.

[sghart3578]

I have great 100 yard accuracy with a RCBS 38-162-SWC, gas checked and sized to .360". I then give them 3 light coats of BLL. If you like I would be happy send you some.

I think the bullets that you are using are too small. I can get decent accuracy with light loads in my 1894CS with bullets sized to .358". But if I want any kind of velocity, say anything over 1300 fps, then I have to up the diameter of the bullet.

The 358156 bullets that you have would be terrific with a gas check, I would be happy to send you some copper and aluminum to try. I shoot my RCBS bullets with no gas checks but only at low velocities. They do okay.

No need to slug your barrel, I quit doing that a long time ago. I shoot different size bullets until I find one that works.

[RogerDat]

You might try "pressing" them on the nose to gain a little diameter. A drill press with a metal rod all the way up in the chuck for a ram. Adjust until the rod squishes the bullet out a couple of thousand when you crank down on the handle. Don't use the motor. Unless your willing to share video ;-)

Another member passed that suggestion on to me for running 9mm through a 38 revolver with good fit. Worked, did have a RF bullet nose but with a snug fit. I have also done Lee Alox in 45/45/10 as a tumble lube over older store bought bullets with hard waxy lube of some sort. Think it was red not blue but no matter, idea is the same as mentioned in prev. post.

[Rodfac]

I'd like to 2nd Larry's recommendation for 358156, especially with GC's. My Marlin will group them in less than 2" at 100 yds, and with Micro-Groove rifling too! I've not tried them without the GC however.

I size all my .357 bullets to 0.360"; I cast using WW alloy +1-2% tin but I do not water quench as a rule. That size allows easy chambering and superb accuracy in all my .357's: 2 S&W M60's, a Smith M19, and a pair of Ruger BH Flat Tops, as well as the aforementioned Marlin 1894.

As to lube: I use White Label 50-50 in my Lyman 450 sizer, then swirl lube with LLA or 45-45-10. I've used Missouri Bullets' 158 gr SWC with the blue lube and had minor leading up to 1100 fps with my handguns, but the swirl lube process stopped that. I've not tried that bullet in my Marlin however.

With any cast bullet, home cast or commercial, I use the minimum amount of crimp that will keep the bullet in place under magazine spring compression (really, this amounts to little more than straightening out the case mouth flare). With my handguns, especially with the lighter weight S&W M60's, a bit more crimp is necessary....and BTW, I have better luck with a tapered crimp, than with the traditional roll type. With a bullet sized 0.360", there is plenty of case neck tension. I use Lee dies for sizing and seating on my Dillon 550B press, and an older RCBS steel sizer die to give me a light taper crimp.

In summary; with your Ballard rifled Marlin, I'd try a bigger diameter bullet, and add a swirl lube step if using your .358" dia. Missouri commercial bullets. I'd say you're pushing that bullet too fast for its size. For Lyman's excellent 358156, I'd size them to 0.360, lube with a standard 50-50 lube plus LLA or 45-45-10, and use the GC. That combination with 13.5 gr of 2400 in Magnum brass will give you 1600 fps from your Marlin and great 100 yd accuracy. As always, the above load should be worked up to, considering all pressure implications and after consulting a good reloading manual.

HTH's Rod

[gundownunder]

If your Ballard rifled Marlin is anything like my cowboy model it will never shoot cast 158gr bullets well. I can't hit a pie plate at 50, let alone a barn door at 100. I tried a bunch of powders from Unique and trailboss, all the way up to 2400 and 4227. Tried sizing from .357 up to .360, pistol primers and rifle primers and crimps from ultra light to almost crushing the bullet.
Switch to a 175gr - 180gr and you will probably have the kind of accuracy you want. I use a Mihec 360640 which casts at 175gr and it will do the job with any powder I care to feed it, although with trailboss it is a bit slow getting to the 200 yd rams, but with Lil'gun it gets there real quick.

[DerekP Houston]

If you haven't gotten some yet, I've got a box of copper checks I could mail you a handful to test.

[wbrco]

If your Ballard rifled Marlin is anything like my cowboy model it will never shoot cast 158gr bullets well. I can't hit a pie plate at 50, let alone a barn door at 100. I tried a bunch of powders from Unique and trailboss, all the way up to 2400 and 4227. Tried sizing from .357 up to .360, pistol primers and rifle primers and crimps from ultra light to almost crushing the bullet.
Switch to a 175gr - 180gr and you will probably have the kind of accuracy you want. I use a Mihec 360640 which casts at 175gr and it will do the job with any powder I care to feed it, although with trailboss it is a bit slow getting to the 200 yd rams, but with Lil'gun it gets there real quick.
I'm starting to think you are right. I tried my light 38 plinking rounds, and after raising the sights up about 18" they were still a 24" group with un-checked 358156's. These shoot sub 1" groups or better at 25 yds.

Got some checks from FergusonTO35 but haven't tried them yet.

I guess I need to start watching the swapping and selling forum for a bigger bullet mold.

[wbrco]

Quick update.

Gas checked 358156 with blue dot , 4227 and h110 all started out within a 8" circle. Need to work up from here, but I think I've solved my problem.

Thanks for all your help!

[dannyd]

I tried their 158's they did not work, but their 180 Grain RNFP one inch group @100 yards

[stubbicatt]

It seems I may have come along too late, but with my Marlin cowboy (ballard rifled) rifle, 13.5 grains of 2400, a standard CCI small pistol primer, and a 160 grain Lyman RNFP bullet was pop can accurate with a scope to just over 100 yards. The trajectory fell off very soon after 100, so I didn't shoot it much farther than 100 yards.

[EDK]

The folks over at marlinowners are pretty hot on 175+ grain boolits in MARLIN 357 rifles. Sizing to .360 or + is a popular idea also. I like the NOE 360 180 Wide Flat Nose, as well as 358156. I don't do much group shooting with the rifles..they're my walk through the woods rifles.

MOMENT OF SILENCE: I have a LEE group buy of 358627 that was ordered by NEERB (Dave Breen) but he died before receiving it. His heirs returned it. It was sold to benefit the site. He liked friendly bar maids and a cold beer after work. I've lifted a cold one in his honor and gave the girl a tip in his name. She likes old guys with blue collar jobs.

[Iowa Fox]

I size all my 38/357 bullets to 360. The 360 sizing die is a standard offering from Lyman and I've got one for the Star. Anymore regardless of the caliber I size um fat and if they chamber that's what I do.

[ironhead7544]

I have found that some guns just need a gas check for accurate high velocity loads.

For plinking, try a max load of Trail Boss.

Hard to find an all around load that is cheap enough for plinking. You might have to compromise a bit and use more than one load.

[robg]

In my win trapper 190gr rcbs sil mould with gas check 11.5 gr 2400 1250fps Lee lube will shoot 2inch five shot groups when I'm on form,I not that good often ! The winnie is.