Grease cookie revisited......

[Knarley]

Got to thinking about my loads the other day, and was wondering if a grease cookie wouldn't help after all. Blow tubing does help, but quite a bit of blowing is required. Yes, I know, I should just go to the range and find out for my self, instead of bothering you guys.
Well, the gun is in the shop getting new wood, so it isn't available to go to the range. But, I have a question or two to ponder.
The first : Does the acceleration of the projectile cause the lube to do it's job, or is it the heat of the powder burning? Or a combo of the two?
Now, if the heat is part of the process, the wad will get in the way, by shielding the projectile from the heat, so the lube doesn't soften.
If it isn't the heat, the wad is a moot issue as far as lube goes. I am thinking the grease cookie should be on the powder side of the wad so it won't stick to the projectile and affect accuracy, but still help with softening the residue.
I'm shooting a 34" bbl 45/70, and it seems to have hard residue on both ends.
FFG Goex, 70 gr/weight, .125 veg wad 500 gr projectile.
Looking forward to making smoke again......
Knarley

[craig61a]

I use an Accurate 461405 1-30 flat base which I pan lube with a mixture of beeswax, cooking oil and lanolin. I place a 1/8" hard felt wad on top of the powder. There is a small ring of lube left on the case mouths when I eject the cartridge. The heating of the barrel as shots are fired will soften the lube, but it's mostly the acceleration of the boolit and the radial velocity that pushes it up against the bore.

[rfd]

i did the blow tubing and then trialled a number of diff'rent grease cookie arrangements, always came back to just running a single moistened (moose milk, or a bit of ballistol in water, or just plain water) cotton wiping patch 'tween firings. this gives me the most consistent shot-to-shot fouling control no matter what is the climate or the shooting conditions. i bag up up the fouled arsenal patches, put 'em in a net bag, and when i get a hundred or more they all get washed clean - frugally reusable and repurposed. :) i hear where some folks are using moistened cotton balls instead of patches, too, as a cheaper way of wiping and nothing to even consider reusing.

[country gent]

When sing a grease cookie I use a heavy over powder wad the grease cookie and a thin wad on top of that. The 1 st thick wad helps keep lube away from powder and the thin one on top keeps lube from sticking to the bullet base. As th heat is just such a brief instance it may be more a pressure hydrolic action squeezing the lube cookie thinner and bigger in dia to coat the barrel. I really wonder if a harder lube mix of emmerts ( addition of more beeswax) might make for a better grease cookie. Keeping fouling soft depending on your area atmosphere can be an issue also hot and dry conditions are worse then damp humid areas for this.

[Nobade]

i did the blow tubing and then trialled a number of diff'rent grease cookie arrangements, always came back to just running a single moistened (moose milk, or a bit of ballistol in water, or just plain water) cotton wiping patch 'tween firings. this gives me the most consistent shot-to-shot fouling control no matter what is the climate or the shooting conditions. i bag up up the fouled arsenal patches, put 'em in a net bag, and when i get a hundred or more they all get washed clean - frugally reusable and repurposed. :) i hear where some folks are using moistened cotton balls instead of patches, too, as a cheaper way of wiping and nothing to even consider reusing.

Good idea! I am going to start doing that. Since most of the fouling is water soluble, there should be no problem washing and reusing wiping patches. I am just starting to play with my 38-55 more seriously and the best loads use no lube at all so I have to wipe between shots. That ends up being a lot of little bits of cloth!

-Nobade

[Gunlaker]

Knarley, the heat from the powder charge going off won't be enough to affect the lube. A black powder bullet only stays in the barrel for about 0.003 seconds so even with th high temperatures, very little heat actually will get transfered to the bullet.

Another way lube likely gets out of the grooves and into the barrel will be from the bullet bumping up. As the bullet shortens the lube grooves will get slightly narrower and this will force lube out of the bullet. One way or another it'll come off :-)

Chris.

[craig61a]

Here's the article I was looking for that does a lot better at explaining it...

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm

[Knarley]

So, the wad that protects the boolit base from scoring, would also stop the gasses from melting the lube that forms the "stop leak" gasket that rides in front of the boolit.

I know that some don't believe in a grease cookie, and I'm not wanting to argue that point. Yes, blow tubing works, as does wiping between shots.
But one would think that if the powder burn would melt some of the lube on the boolit, without a wad, a small cookie under the wad would be consumed to help keep the fouling soft.
But then again, lube will some times stick to the base of a boolit, effecting accuracy, leading to the assumption that it doesn't get consumed in the firing.
That then leads to either a felt wad, or veggie wad that is oiled, of course a wax paper or bee's brooder wax wafer be placed under that as to not contaminate the powder could be used.
I 'spoze now that I have so much **** under the boolit, I can't get enough powder in there.
Maybe the answer is a 45/90!! I'd sure hate to put another gun in the cabinet..............:bigsmyl2:

Knarley

[rfd]

pay me now (grease cookie process, perhaps a reduced load) or pay me later (blow tube or wiping), no fast food 'n accurate bpcr lunch, i think. :bigsmyl2:

[craig61a]

I've used grease cookies in my Snider loadings. If you were to look at the pieces shot out of the barrel, wads, paper, etc that you usually find laying in the grass 15 - 20 yards in front of the firing line, you'll see that most of that stuff doesn't have any burn marks on it. The burning of the powder is so fast that it doesn't have time ignite. I suppose the internal ballistics of it could be described as trying to light a piece of coal... and generally a lube cookie will be between two pieces of wad material that will act to squeeze it out like toothpaste.

[martinibelgian]

Actually, not much of the above - contact time is too short for heat to have any influence, and there is the overpowder wad. Hydraulic pressure plays a role, but then the lube has nowhere to go to after a small initial bump-up: At the front there is the bullet sealing the bore, at the rear the overpowder wad, and radially it is constricted by the bore - so there's nowhere for the lube to go. Which means that only the surface in contact with the bore will do any work, so the thicker the lube cookie is, the more effective it will be. The rest just has to be there to fill up the 'hole'. The ODG were also arguing the point, and had 2 different ideas:
- the cookie serves to coat the bore with lube, thus preventing the fouling from sticking to bare metal, or...
- It acts as a scraper wad, removing any fouling from the bore as left by the bullet, keeping fouling levels manageable.
Maybe it does a bit of both. I'll add a 3rd - it will also help against gas cutting, preventing leading caused this way.

Just my idea, and worth whatever you paid for it...

[Lead pot]

It's the added 20,000 PSI pressure when the charge goes off that generates the most heat on the lube.
Soft lube works better with fouling. A good hard wad over the powder will act as a scrapper with a very soft lube wad then a card of plastic under the bullet. My lube is so soft I can put it between the thumb and finger and squeezing it just about turns it into a liquid. This softens the fouling from the last shot fired and the soft lube makes a very soft grease out of the fouling and the hard wad over the powder will scrape it out.
Yes there will be more left behind from the last shot but a good lube that will soften the last shot fouling so the wad over the powder will keep scraping it out to keep a consistent bore will give you consistent accuracy.
A lube wad cookie or lubed felt will do this better then a GG will.
But again if you wipe between shots using a PP bullet, why even use a lube wad? your wiping away the lube left behind.
One thing I have found not using any lube with a PP load and that is a tendency stretching cases if your one that likes to anneal them.

[Lead pot]

Knarley here is an example of a lube wad that works and one that works better.
Look at the white and pink one. Both started at 3/16 thick and both have the same ingredients except one is softer and I added some color to it to identify it.
The pink one left most of the lube behind so the scrapper wad could remove the fouling better and leave a moist bore behind for the next shot.
Like you said "Yes I know, I should go to the range myself to find out for my self" :) that would really tell you what is going on.

~[URL=http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/d9cdca03-94e3-4cc0-baa2-06363f9a1ec7_zps267a4706.jpg.html]http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/d9cdca03-94e3-4cc0-baa2-06363f9a1ec7_zps267a4706.jpg[/URL

[Knarley]

Led Pot,
As soon as my rifle is done, I'll be out there banging away.
What you have there, your "sammiches" is what I've been thinking about.

[.22-10-45]

This wasn't the best year for shooting for me..working too many hours! and I didn't get to experiment with different loads with my .40-70 straight. But year before, I was playing with original Ballard .25-25 Stevens using 3FG Swiss. Bullets were from Ideal 25736 mould lubed with SPG. Loads with only .032" veg. fibre wad over powder, and barely damp patch run thru after each shot..I noticed feeling a hard crusty area right in front of chamber..patch showed chunks of hard fouling. I decided to try a grease cookie to soften that hard baked on fouling. At the time, I too believed the heat from powder blast would vaporize grease wad...so I used pure beeswax overpowder wad .010" thick..a 1/8" SPG cookie & .032" veg. fibre wad under bullet. Running patch thru after each shot...no longer could feel any fouling build up at chamber end. Patch came out with what looked to be same crusty chunk of fouling...only when I rubbed it between thumb & fingers...it was so soft and greasy some of it absorbed into skin. Using a blowtube between shots, rifle is grouping 1" or slightly smaller at 50yds. 1 barely damp patch thru after each shot & drying chamber groups of 3/8" are possible. This is with the original windage globe front & vernier tang sights.

[Good Cheer]

Is there a good way to use grease cookies in a short necked case like an 8x57?