Man Stopper Bullet for the 357 Magnum

[rjathon]

The 38 Special load thread was so interesting and educational that it would be nice to learn with a 357 thread.

Specifically what cast bullet/load, jacketed bullet/load, and low recoil/blast/flash load.

[Garyshome]

Kind a makes me wonder just why there isn't one already.

[Hickok]

The legendary .357 magnum manstopper was/is a jacketed 125gr hp @ about 1400 fps out of a 4 in barrel. But I have shot that load in my .357's and it is nasty, loud blast, fireball muzzle flash, and it is said to be very erosive to forcing cones with prolonged use. I too found that this load just didn't shoot well at longer ranges past 50 yards as did heavier 158gr-170gr. cast boolits, at least for me. But it wasn't designed for long range shooting, as it was primarily a load for law enforcement to put bad guys out of action at self defense ranges.

I imagine a good cast boolit with a gas check could be loaded to the same velocity.

[paul h]

Mihec 360640 hp over 7 gr of Unique.

[GabbyM]

357 mag I load for is a bit of a ***. Is an old Colt Trooper III with the typical three different sizes of cylinder throats. .358" boolits lead up two of the throats. So I had this custom made 170 grain gas check mold with a .300" long RNFP nose I'd made for Marlin lever guns. It drops .360" boolits. I had a couple thousand sized .359" from BHN #9 alloy. Load over 12.0 grains of 2400 and they just stay sub sonic. They mushroom quite well and should do so down to 900 fps. The nose is rebated so no sized diameter to make fit the cylinder. Worked out quite well. I copied that nose from the RCBS 158gr Cowboy bullet I have. Which was proven to feed in the Marlin rifle.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50640&d=1250353529

[Scharfschuetze]

I can tell you that a 357 Magnum is not really a man stopper against motivated or doped up felons even with multiple center of mass hits. Bigger is better in a gun fight and the 41 cal Model 58 was a good choice as well as the old 1911 in 45 ACP if your department would allow it.

The average police gun fight in the 70s and 80s was normally at night, at 4 to 7 feet, with four or five rounds fired by the officer. Sadly, hit rates were something like only 20 percent or so. Those were FBI stats. The FBI kept lots of info on such things and much of it was used in police training at all levels.

Statistically, the 125 grain jacketed hollow point had the best score card back when LEOs still carried 357 Magnum revolvers for use against bipeds. I believe that Federal really promoted the load and many departments carried the Federal brand of the 125 grain JHP as a result. Hickok is correct in the load's ability to make a forcing cone on a revolver look like sandpaper. I believe the L Frame S&W was in part brought out to help handle the load.

For everyday use and carry, now that I don't get paid to carry one anymore, I like the classic 158 grain JHP or JSP when armed with a 357. I've put down pretty large animals with this bullet weight without too much drama.

[Beagle333]

I bought a box of Winchester Black Talon factory SD loads back when they were still for sale and if I ever use more than two cylinders of them, I'll move!

[Win94ae]

The legendary .357 magnum manstopper was/is a jacketed 125gr hp @ about 1400 fps out of a 4 in barrel. But I have shot that load in my .357's and it is nasty, loud blast, fireball muzzle flash, and it is said to be very erosive to forcing cones with prolonged use. I too found that this load just didn't shoot well at longer ranges past 50 yards as did heavier 158gr-170gr. cast boolits, at least for me. But it wasn't designed for long range shooting, as it was primarily a load for law enforcement to put bad guys out of action at self defense ranges.

I imagine a good cast boolit with a gas check could be loaded to the same velocity.

In my experience, I have found that 357s above the speed of sound, will not be accurate at distance. I blame it on the transonic effect. I keep all my 357 loads at 1050fps and experience wonderful precision, no matter what the jacketed bullet. My 686 has a restriction at the frame, so only specific cast bullets don't lead the barrel, and in turn cause imprecision.

[mnewcomb59]

In my experience, I have found that 357s above the speed of sound, will not be accurate at distance. I blame it on the transonic effect. I keep all my 357 loads at 1050fps and experience wonderful precision, no matter what the jacketed bullet. My 686 has a restriction at the frame, so only specific cast bullets don't lead the barrel, and in turn cause imprecision.

Sounds like you want a 38 lol

357 MAGNUM is 158 @ 1250+ and 125 a 1450+ in a 4" barrel. If it doesnt make 750 foot pounds in a 6" its a light load.

Lee 158-RF works excellent. The wide meplat does great damage when cast hard, or the wide meplat makes the bullet expand easily when cast soft. With 10 BHN alloy, it mushrooms into a full wadcutter above 1100 fps impact velocity. With 10 bhn alloy, magnum velocity, and a TINY dimple carved by my knife (less than .125") it expands beautifully to .60 cal with 100% weight retention. Same load with 158 XTP (15.2 gr 2400) and the XTP only retains 141 gr. Same load with Zero JSP and no expansion, just flat nose turning into round nose, which ruins straight-line penetration and causes tumbling.


Also lol @ the people who think 45 is more powerful.If you're one of the people who don't believe in math and think its all some conspiracy, I will lay out different metrics that compare the rounds. Go ahead and punch in your numbers on the Beartooth calculators for penetration and wound diameter. .28 meplat for .357 and .32 meplat for 45.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/penetration.htm

Until you get into 45 super it is more akin to 38+p or 9mm. Nowhere near 357 so never say that again.

Lets see, full size 38s shoot 158 at 1000 fps (351 foot pounds, .7" permanent wound, 28.7 relative penetration)

vs full size 45 shooting 230 @ 830 fps. (351 foot pounds, .66" permanent wound, 32 relative penetration)


357 125 full power loading out of a long barrel is crazy. People duplicate this buffalo bore load with max load of H110. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZJSGJqsVFg

Compare to 45 and you can see that 45 is not powerful. 45 is weaker than many 9mm loads so HOW IS IT ANYWHERE NEAR 357 MAG? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G-txVKnVjY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPdl_egCaCA

So here you go - Beartooth calculators, Foot pounds energy, and multiple 10,000 frames per second video thoroughly disproving the idea that 45 ACP equals or exceeds 357 mag.

With all that being said, I hunt with a 6" Security Six and a 5" 1911. My 1911 is set up for 45 Super though, and I run the Lee 200-rf at 1100 fps (just a few tenths past +p, far below max load that will go 1300 fps). It casts out at 212, which makes 572 foot pounds. I haven't got to shoot a critter with this load yet, but maybe this is nearing the effectiveness of the mighty 357. Maybe

[mnewcomb59]

Here is a link to a full powered 158 grain HP that fails to expand in ballistic gel. Since it doesn't expand, it does the exact same damage as a hard 158 gr WFN bullet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy9tIABsauM


Absolutely devastating. Service caliber hollow points do a 1.25 inch wide permanent wound for 6" then make a pinhole until they stop at 15".

The 357 158 gr, .28" meplat, at 1400 fps as seen in the video has a 1.25" wound that goes at least 15" then the bullet makes a small wound until the 27" mark.

For self defense, 125 WFN would go faster, make a wider wound, and penetrate less.AKA be closer to FBI standards. For self defense, I want more penetration than the FBI calls for so the bullet breaks the spine rather than rest against it, but lets not get crazy. I run Lee's 95- rf in my 9mm at 1450 fps because there is no hollow point to fail, and it penetrates a few inches deeper than the average Gold Dot or HST. As seen in the video, a .28 meplat is deadly at 1400fps. These 95 grain WFN bullets penetrate a little less than small meplat 380 flat nose, about 18" ballistic gel vs 22".

For deer, do you really need a 180 cast hard? Its a good idea with expanding bullets, but if hard cast you can give up a lot of the wounding potential because it has the same energy as the 158s, but penetrates much further than needed. If you have 750 foot pounds stretched over 3.5 feet of penetration you will have a smaller wound than 750 foot pounds used up in 2.5 feet. Since you can't keep a hard 158 in a deer if you tried, the 180s are putting a lot of wounding potential into the dirt behind the deer. 30-30 core-lokt only penetrates 16" ballistic gel and its killed many many deer. I think 158 is the sweet spot because of the velocity and BC and penetration. 1450 fps in 6".


Here are all his 357s. he also tests out NOE boolits in 10mm and lots of other cool stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/user/chopinbloc/search?query=357
https://www.youtube.com/user/chopinbloc/videos

[Outpost75]

This is the bullet I use in my .357s, Hunter's Supply 358-190FN, same profile as NEI #161A or Accurate 36-185F

154840154841154842

When hollowpointed ala www.hollowpointmold.com cast 1:30 tin/lead and driven by a compressed caseful of 4198 or RL7 velocity is 1450 fps in the rifle and expansion on deer reliable at 100+ yards with excellent accuracy.

[Good Cheer]

The most destructive home grown self defense close range .357 load I ever concocted was the old NEI gas checked wadcutter. Size the front end to allow seating out as far up into the cylinder throats as you can and crimp the case where ever you can. Trim the brass a smidgen if need be to catch the band for crimping. Maximize the available powder space. Cast it soft and load with lots of a slow burner. It was the same philosophy as later popularized with wide meplats. The full bore flat front is as good as it gets without a significant hollow point.

[Love Life]

I carry the NOE 360477 hollowpoint gc, cast of 20:1 and driven as hard as I safely can in my revolver.

[9.3X62AL]

The 357 Magnum is by some distance my all-time favorite handgun caliber. The S&W 586/686 x 4" is the single-best currently-produced handgun for general purpose usage across the spectrum of handgun utility. There are no especially bad loadings in this caliber for use as felon repellent, as long as they are full-power/full-potential loads. Keep in mind that SAAMI "detuned" all of the Magnum revolver caliber down to the 36K PSI level from their former 42.5K level about 20 years ago, paving the way for those hand-biter J-frame S&Ws chambered in 357 Magnum and import Win 73s in 44 Magnum.

I wasn't real happy to see my old shop change out our old 357 load (W-W 158 JHP) for the "FBI Load"/Federal #357B/125 JHP. Historically, 125 grainers haven't shot as accurately for me in either 38 Special or 357 Magnum calibers as have the 158 grain bullets at any distance, but the full-snort 125s seem to produce a bit less recoil than do the 158s.......and I think that is the real reason for their adoption.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I carried the .357 for over 7 years as a peace officer, I never really trusted it and I saw it fail in lots of law enforcement applications.

9.3x62AL's post on the downgrade of the pressures of this cartridge really intrigued me. As I look at the older 42,000 cup max compared to the current 35,000 psi max I think the difference is the cup vs psi. The difference is in the methods of measuring pressure.

Then too the max loads as listed in the 1979 Speer manual are higher than the max loads listed in the current 2007 Speer manual. For the 158 gr J-word; 296 is reduced from 17.8 to 14.7 gr. 2400 is reduced from 15.9 to 14.8 gr. Blue Dot is reduced from 13.0 gr to 10.2 gr. The reduced loads are explained as being due to switching from the cup method of measuring pressure to the pezio-electric transducer which revealed dangerous pressure spikes not seen with the cup method.

[9.3X62AL]

Well, SOMETHING changed along about 1990 that lowered chronographed velocity 10%-15%. Straight info from ammomakers is pretty scarce, but resulting velocity I view as a "polygraph outcome"--at minimum an inference, and maybe actual & factual......or its polar opposite. 1200 or 1450 FPS, a 357 bullet that connects well won't do its recipient any benefit.

[rondog]

The most destructive home grown self defense close range .357 load I ever concocted was the old NEI gas checked wadcutter. Size the front end to allow seating out as far up into the cylinder throats as you can and crimp the case where ever you can. Trim the brass a smidgen if need be to catch the band for crimping. Maximize the available powder space. Cast it soft and load with lots of a slow burner. It was the same philosophy as later popularized with wide meplats. The full bore flat front is as good as it gets without a significant hollow point.

Oh, you're gonna get all the Massad Ayoob lovers stirred up! "You should NEVER use handloads for self defense! A prosecutor will paint you as a sociopathic murderer, hunched over in your basement gun laboratory making the deadliest man-killer ammo you can devise, and throw you to the wolves!"

Myself, that sounds like a great load you made there. I prefer to carry my own ammo that I KNOW will perform when needed, not mass-produced stuff out of a box that I HOPE will perform.

[rondog]

Well, SOMETHING changed along about 1990 that lowered chronographed velocity 10%-15%. Straight info from ammomakers is pretty scarce, but resulting velocity I view as a "polygraph outcome"--at minimum an inference, and maybe actual & factual......or its polar opposite. 1200 or 1450 FPS, a 357 bullet that connects well won't do its recipient any benefit.
LAWYERS is what happened. Protecting the Corporate A$$ is priority #1.

[9.3X62AL]

LAWYERS is what happened. Protecting the Corporate A$$ is priority #1.

Oh, say it ain't so! :-)

I investigated several citizen vs. hairball shootings (to include fatalities among them) and at no time did the question of "handload vs. factory load" come at any stage of the matters. When a place like Southern California that has as many felony assaults of all kinds as we handle, things get pared down to reality post haste--is it legally justified, or not? Benefit of doubt in my county accrued in favor of decent citizens in my experience, sometimes strongly. Bringing up minutae like "factory load or handload?" at a District Attorney's staffing would have prompted strange looks and comments like, "Stop arranging deck chairs on the Titanic post-iceberg." Captain Ayoob may have some other fine ideas about defensive shooting, but his fetish over handloads is not among them.

[Scharfschuetze]

Captain Ayoob may have some other fine ideas about defensive shooting, but his fetish over handloads is not among them.

I agree fully. I was always wary of his writing in police journals. Friends who attended some of his police shooting courses reported that he did a credible job with those.

[GabbyM]

I wonder sometimes about people worrying of a home cast bullet that can be traced back to them.

My pocket 380 carries an obscure old Lyman 100 grain TC. I don't worry one bit since I would call in any bodies I left behind. Probably twenty people beat me to the call these days with everyone having a phone and camera in there pocket. Along those lines. If I drove as much as I used to. I'd have a dash came recording front and back on my car. If I messed up causing a wreak it would be right there on my own cameras to use against me. Thing is I'd own up to it anyway. Hope that never happens.

[rondog]

Oh, say it ain't so! :-)

I investigated several citizen vs. hairball shootings (to include fatalities among them) and at no time did the question of "handload vs. factory load" come at any stage of the matters. When a place like Southern California that has as many felony assaults of all kinds as we handle, things get pared down to reality post haste--is it legally justified, or not? Benefit of doubt in my county accrued in favor of decent citizens in my experience, sometimes strongly. Bringing up minutae like "factory load or handload?" at a District Attorney's staffing would have prompted strange looks and comments like, "Stop arranging deck chairs on the Titanic post-iceberg." Captain Ayoob may have some other fine ideas about defensive shooting, but his fetish over handloads is not among them.

My "lawyers" comment was about the sissyfication of the .357 magnum loads and how they're weaker than they used to be.

I wholeheartedly agree about the "handloads for self defense" nonsense. I believe it's a non-issue, and every gun I carry for s/d has my handloads in it. I can't even remember the last time I bought a box of factory-made ammo that wasn't .22lr. Oh wait, yes I can, I needed some .30-30's to try out a Marlin I'd just picked up, and didn't have the dies and brass yet. That's been resolved now.

In fact, this here's a .45 Gold Dot handload of mine that I fired into some water jugs. I think these'll do right well, thank you, and I carry them in my 1911's. Bought the bullets on sale from Midway long ago, I think they were "blems".

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/ammo%20and%20reloading/DSC_0097.jpg

[Lead Fred]

I use Elmer Keith's boolit, the Ideal 358439 hollow point cast. The 158gr be loaded as low as 850fps (38sp load)
Up to 1535fps (357 mag load), mushrooms out to 60 caliber. Costs pennies to make.
The FBI used this for over 30 years. Cant see using them fancy store boughts, when a boolit will do the job.

[Lonegun1894]

I carry a Mihec .360156HPGC (same as Lyman 358156 except .360" instead of .358"), but recently got a NOE 360429HP. Haven't had a chance to do a whole lot of testing with it yet though.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Massad Ayoob has come out and given us presentations, he's shot with us and drank with us. He's a straight up guy. I suppose you can pick out points to disagree with him on but what he has to say is pretty right on in my opinion.

If Mas said to not use handloads for sd then I'm out and about actively disagreeing with him right now. 9.3x62AL has the right point of view posted above.

[9.3X62AL]

Here and now might be the right place and time to lay out a little info.......I carry factory loads because I am required to by my authorizing agency. The ammo make & model in 357 Magnum--40 S&W--and 45 ACP that we authorize is really good stuff......in 9mm and 38 Special, not so much--so I no longer carry those calibers. I cobble up reloads that mirror factory ballistics of my carry loads and practice with them regularly. Since this ammo/components drought onset several years ago, my sport shooting has dwindled considerably; my components were directed toward defensive practice ammo production. Factory ammo offers sealing meant to preclude moisture and petrochemical vapors from affecting performance. Failure rates of factory loads and my own handloads are roughly the same historically in my experience, given 23 years of ONLY factory ammo being fired on range assignments as a trainer at an agency of some size AND 45+ years as a reloader and firearms hobbyist.

[Lonegun1894]

That makes perfect sense, 9.3. I think it's great that you mentioned failure rates though. I carry hand loads because of failures with factory loads. Now granted, I have had two (2) fail to fire with primer indented as it should have been (other than rimfire rounds, which I don't carry for defensive use), and had one shooter next to me have a catastrophic failure that ended up with both of us catching shrapnel, also from a factory load. Thankfully, neither of us was seriously injured, but rather more mad that it happened. Anyway, my failure rate with hand loads is limited to intentional failures only, such as when I was loading too long or too short just to see what the limits of OAL were that would still allow cycling, but since that was me intentionally changing OAL to INDUCE a failure to feed, I don't consider it a failure. BTW, both the rounds that failed to fire were disassembled later at home to find out what happened, and neither of them had a flashhole drilled in it to allow the primer to ignite the powder, but rather just had the primer fire into a blind hole. I have never seen that before, or since, and both rounds were out of the same box, but it left me a bit uncomfortable in trusting factory ammo. I figure with a hand load, if it doesn't fire, I have no one but myself to blame.

[Jtarm]

The reduced loads are explained as being due to switching from the cup method of measuring pressure to the pezio-electric transducer which revealed dangerous pressure spikes not seen with the cup method.

FWIW, Lyman #46 listed pressures in CUP. It lists a .357 load of 17.6 (IIRC) of 296 behind the Sierra 150 JHC. It was published with the usual warning not to reduce.

I tried this combo back in the 80s. When the first round sounded like an HP rifle and cratered the primer, I decided it was a smidgen hot.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Lyman 2010 Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition lists pressures for the .357 in C.U.P. 42,700 max. It lists over 1,300 fps with 158 gr boolits with Enforcer, HS-6, H110 and Acc #9.

[Bagdadjoe]

155425 Mihec 180 cast with Appalacian-America ballistic tip mods.

[Bazoo]

358156 HP over 14 grains of 2400 would be nice.

[Fire_Medic]

155425 Mihec 180 cast with Appalacian-America ballistic tip mods.

Joe,

Could you please pm me the specifics of this mold to see if I can order one?

Thanks
FM

[Lonegun1894]

Usually Mihec does group buys, but this is one bullet that you shouldn't have any trouble finding enough people to sign up for to get him to make a run.

[Gamsek]

Why wait for group buys? Drop MiHec a note through forum, or through his web page http://www.mp-molds.com/magento/index.php/contacts/

He sometimes has over runs, maybe your manstopper is waiting there;)

[725]

MiHec's 180 looks like a good candidate. Any cast in the 180 range would be good, but the wide meplat has my vote. Have you considered the Lyman 358627 (215 gr) SWC? No experience shooting bipeds with it but I can tell you wild boar drop on the spot with good .357 mag shot placement. I've used this boolit for many applications and it's a winner in my book. I'd feel right at home with it for a self defense load.

[Lonegun1894]

Gamsek,
Good thinking, but I meant just in case there isn't a overrun mold available to not give up.

[Fire_Medic]

Thanks for the info guys I brought a new toy home today that will need to be fed properly lol.

[357Mag]

RJathon -

Howdy !

After talking w/ Dr. Martin Fackler @ the US Army's Wound Ballsitics Lab; importance of the " temporary wound cavity " came to the fore.
In ballistic media testing:
One of the things the 125JHP ( Rem, Federal ) loads did, was produce a significant temporary wound cavity; along with a commensurate level of penetration.

In comparison, 158gr lead SWC .357Mag ( factory ) loads produced a somewhat lessened temporary wound cavity; along with a bit more penetration.

This of course, relates to the rate of energy dump; and violence of expansion of the bullet or boolit.

One thing that remains fairly clear is: highest rated manstopper loads produce about 425 ft lb of energy at the minimum end of the spectrum, with select
cartridges producing significantly more ft lbs than that ( regardless of calibre ).

Consider carrying the gun w/ "J"-word 125s for defense; and use the 158s for other.


With regards,
357Mag

[S. Galbraith]

The manstopper title that the .357mag earned in the 1970s and 80s was due to several factors.

One, JHP designs were very primitive back then. Most ammo companies at the time tested their loads in water tanks because it was cheap and easy to do so. This presented two problems.......human tissue is not 100% water, and there was no basis for estimating adequate penetration. As a result, many JHPs in the field did not expand at all unless subjected to higher velocity calibers like the .357mag. So, the only police load available at the time that had the power to punch through barriers and the velocity to adequately expand projectiles was the .357mag.

The second and third factors that helped to stop bad guys fast were the loud blast and fireball muzzle flash. In the old days, the .357mag was called the ".38 Flash Bang" for a reason. Coincidentally, the .357mag was known to be particularly effective at close ranges of around 7yrds. In the old days of Marshall & Sanow and their "one-shot-stop" and "energy-dump" theories, it was assumed that this close range effectiveness was due to the rapid deceleration of a high velocity projectile and the kinetic energy transferred to the target. The more likely theory as has been observed in the last few decades is that the old .357mag worked because it triggered a psychological surrender of the subject due to having a flash bang go off in their face. An officer I actually worked with fired one shot with his Remington 870 with 14" barrel at a suspect around 10yrds away during a night time felony traffic stop and the suspect collapsed instantly and was unconscious. It turned out that he never even hit the suspect with the 1oz slug. The blast and muzzle flash from the 14" barrel literally scared the suspect into fainting. In the last 20 years with lower blast and lower flash powders used in modernized defensive ammunition, there has not been much documented OISs with .357sig, 10mm, or other high powered calibers to hint that there is some sort of increased stopping effect that could not be achieved with lower velocity 9mm, .40, or .45 calibers.

So, to sum up, I strongly recommend that you consider modernized .357mag loads that you can shoot well under stress and variable conditions. Personally, I do not like using .357mag in anything other than a full steel framed revolver, and moderate 158gr Gold Dots are preferable. Your combat effectiveness diminishes if you are blind, deaf, and have trouble controlling the firearm. Auditory exclusion from loud noises happens under stress, but actual tearing of the ear drum which has happened with SBR 5.56 weapons indoors has caused officers to more often shoot fellow officers and ignore threats in their periphery as was observed by the 2012 Quantico study. In other words, the louder the bang, the more negatively it effects your performance.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I would not depend on any projectile under 165 grains and desire 180 grains fired as fast as the revolver/shooter can handle. Whether it is a 38 Special or 357 mag. Happily I have never had to fire a round in anger/self defense. But having helped track wounded deer was and is enough to convince me the heavy for caliber flat nosed cast is what I will depend on. 180's penetrate and that flat nose does what we all want. AS bullet weight increases more damage is done. The US Army 120 years ago tried out the caliber 36 revolvers again. discovered at the lives of too many good soldiers that more was better. Heavy bullets with velocity gets the job done. I for one have no desire to trust in velocity alone. That is why up north I carry something starting in 4 and with at least a 240 grainer.
The 41 Colt was much admired as a "man stopper" because it fired a heavy lead bullet. The 44 Special was also a favorite not because of velocity but a heavy bullet. The 45 Colt was much desired due to heavy bullets. All those could have fired a light round ball at magnum velocities. But for many years it was plain fact a heavy lead slug was the best stopper even at BP velocities.
So today I can still use those heavy dependable slugs and at far better velocities if I choose to. And I so choose.
Mike in Peru

[Thumbcocker]

Leadfred would you be willing to share your alloy with us?

[9.3X62AL]

"Temporary wound cavity"........watchword of the Jello Blaster Cadre. I prefer loads that create a PERMANENT wound cavity, the kind examined at autopsy instead of being treated in ERs. Convoluted para-science obliquely viewed and deceptively presented to justify lesser loadings more easily tolerated by recoil-sensitive cubicle farmers. LTC Peters' recent reference to Our Head Hajji describes the type succinctly.

It sure felt good to say that. Facklerites and their lab rat road dogs all need to be tarred and feathered.

[cainttype]

Anyone disparaging Dr. Martin Fackler, his achievements, contributions to Forensic Science, or the people who agree with most of the conclusions drawn from his entire body of work is incapable of being engaged in an intelligent conversation on the subjects of "Wound Incapacitation" or the ridiculous "Stopping Power" BS from the Marshall and Sanow clan...It sure felt good to say that.

For those with inquiring minds, a simple Internet search of exactly WHO Dr. Martin Fackler was should be very enlightening. There are few, if any, that deserve more respect for their contributions to the field of Forensic Science.
To set the record straight, Fackler was a firm believer of stressing the importance of the permanent wound cavity. He was a leading critic of the bogus garbage "data" offered up by Marshall/Sanow which SUPPORTED HV lightweight projectiles from handguns, RELYING on the "shock effect" or the temporary cavity idea that often resulted in inadequate penetration.

Some threads eventually outlive their usefulness.

[Dan Cash]

....

Also lol @ the people who think 45 is more powerful.If you're one of the people who don't believe in math and think its all some conspiracy, I will lay out different metrics that compare the rounds. Go ahead and punch in your numbers....

Some people punch numbers, others punch meat.

[hollywood63]

296 is reduced from 17.8 to 14.7 gr

Only because I don't know but doesn't this go against everything you read on 296/110? Not trying to argue just trying to learn but I was under the impression that reducing this powder caused pressure spikes.

[Outpost75]

Anyone disparaging Dr. Martin Fackler, his achievements, contributions to Forensic Science, or the people who agree with most of the conclusions drawn from his entire body of work is incapable of being engaged in an intelligent conversation on the subjects of "Wound Incapacitation" or the ridiculous "Stopping Power" BS from the Marshall and Sanow clan...It sure felt good to say that.

For those with inquiring minds, a simple Internet search of exactly WHO Dr. Martin Fackler was should be very enlightening. There are few, if any, that deserve more respect for their contributions to the field of Forensic Science. To set the record straight, Fackler was a firm believer of stressing the importance of the permanent wound cavity. He was a leading critic of the bogus garbage "data" offered up by Marshall/Sanow which SUPPORTED HV lightweight projectiles from handguns, RELYING on the "shock effect" or the temporary cavity idea that often resulted in inadequate penetration.


I knew Marty professionally and worked with him on several projects related to the AK74 exploitation, M16A2 and M4 program and in evaluating what became our current generation combat body armor. He was a meticulous professional and scientist as well as an experienced trauma physician. BTW, he was a big proponent of the "full charge wadcutter" in the .38 Special and I arranged for him to travel to New York to interview Jim Cirillo of the NYPD Stakeout Unit, Frank Magee, who then headed the firearms training unit, and later meeting with AFIP physicians and FBI Firearms Unit at Quantico. The FBI Wound Ballistic Conference developed as a result of those contacts about a year later.

[9.3X62AL]

How frequently has Dr. Fackler been shot at? Having actual skin in the game changes perspectives markedly. Our respective "laboratories" differ markedly also. I'm out.

[S. Galbraith]

How frequently has Dr. Fackler been shot at? Having actual skin in the game changes perspectives markedly. Our respective "laboratories" differ markedly also. I'm out.

This Liberian boy has been shot several times, and has lost count of how many times he has been shot at. I think I will call him up for wound ballistics advice.
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p637/scottomega76/cole_liberia_1_zpsue1ru1aj.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/scottomega76/media/cole_liberia_1_zpsue1ru1aj.jpg.html)

[Blackwater]

IMO, there seem to be a lot of evidence on both sides of the issue of temp. vs. permanent wound cavaties. Personally, I'm on Al's side, but I cannot rationally discount the majority of the results from the larger temp. cavity studies. Shock is something a bad guy might overcome afterward, but a permanent wound cavity that leaks blood by the quart and quickly, is a sure fire way to stop pretty quickly, just like running an engine with no oil in it is going to put the brakes on the car PDQ. I just go with the more sure thing, comparatively speaking.

But I don't expect anything to work every time all the time. Reactions to GSW's just doesn't seem to work that way, especially now with all the BG's hopped up on drugs like meth, etc. Some seem immune to "shock," though I DO believe in the shock effect in some situations. When my life's on the line, I want to make SURE it's me who gets to go home, or if needs be to the hospital, and the bad guy goes to the morgue where he definitely can't get at me again. Dead is the most disabled a bad guy can get. It's totally incapacitating, and that's awfully reassuring if you're the object of his ire!

I see stopping as a variable, that basically resists easy classification of results. I generally carry a .380 these days, when engaged in most routine activities. When most people say "I've got to go get a gun," I just pull my little .380 out and tell them it's taken care of. So far, have only shot 4 rattlers with it, but it's awfully handy having it available, and shooting the heads of snakes is good practice for making head shots on bad guys if I ever need to.

I guess I'll always be on the side of those who emphasize center hits, and if a center of mass shot fails, VERY quick follow up with a head shot. The head is the biggest target offered by the central nervous system.

And all of this only serves to remind me I need a lot more practice than I've been getting these days. That old phrase "Physician heal thyself" keeps reverberating though my mind, because I'm just not as good as I once was. Maybe some of you might benefit from a good, long range session too?

[tazman]

The majority of current expanding projectiles either turn into a larger diameter round nose bullet, break up on impact, or punch through without expanding. Ideally, a boolit/bullet would expand at least 50-60% in diameter and would somehow maintain a fairly sharp edge to cut relatively cleanly instead of making a rounded bruising hole. The sharp cut would enable a fast bleed out more so than the rounded edge. I think this would require a heavier projectile to keep driving the expanded surface area through the body. The bullet would become essentially a larger than bore size wadcutter. This would also need to work consistently regardless of the velocity of the bullet/boolit.
I realize no one has developed anything like that yet, at least I haven't heard of any. But the concept would be good.
I have heard of bullets designed to become basically shrapnel upon entry but they all suffer from lack of penetration with the smaller pieces and you never know where the pieces will end up. They may not go anyplace immediately useful. Those pieces also seem to lack the power to break or cut bone due to smaller weight.
I have seen pictures of lead boolits that approach this but the results are inconsistent. I think with current technology, we would be limited to specific velocities to have this work.

[Petrol & Powder]

I find myself in agreement with Al from way back in post #14. The .357 mag is a generally effective load given a few basic parameters such as a hollow point or flat point (no round nose) and enough velocity. That's not to say that all .357 mag loads are equal but there are a lot of good rounds available.
The 125 grain semi-jacketed hollow point was aggressively marketed and that marketing seemed to emphasize velocity over all else. I agree with Al that the reduced recoil of the 125gr bullet compared to the 158 gr slug was also part of that appeal. As for accuracy of the 125 lighter bullets, my experience is that they don't shoot as well as the 158 grain bullets but at the ranges commonly used it is likely a total non-issue.
If you do not kneel at the altar of velocity (and I do not) then the 158gr SWCHP becomes the clear winner. Speed isn't everything. When you get right down to it, the .357 magnum is nothing more than a hot-rod 38 Special. The positive attributes that make the 158 grain load good in the 38 Special make that same bullet weight even better in the .357 magnum. The 158gr bullet tailored to .357 velocities (smaller hollow point and/or stronger jacket) just about guarantees adequate penetration independent of bullet expansion. The lighter 110-125gr. bullets can give impressive expansion and they certainly have a good track record (aided no doubt by their high velocities) but a little more weight at the cost of a little bit of speed also works very well.

The lighter 110-125 grain bullets in .357 magnum are notorious for erosion of forcing cones. Some of that damage is a direct result of the short length of the bullet. The shorter bullets exit the cylinder throats before they can fully obdurate in the bore. The hot gases driven past the bullet while it is still in the forcing cone is hard on that thinner section of the barrel. Again, speed isn't everything. By going to a slightly longer (heavier) bullet you trade a little velocity for less wear on the gun.

So, the 125 grain semi-jacketed, semi-wadcutter, hollow point .357 magnum has a good track record but the 158 gr jacketed, hollow point SWC gets my vote in the .357 magnum.

[cainttype]

[QUOTE=Blackwater;3468105]IMO, there seem to be a lot of evidence on both sides of the issue of temp. vs. permanent wound cavaties. Personally, I'm on Al's side, but I cannot rationally discount the majority of the results from the larger temp. cavity studies. Shock is something a bad guy might overcome afterward, but a permanent wound cavity that leaks blood by the quart and quickly, is a sure fire way to stop pretty quickly, just like running an engine with no oil in it is going to put the brakes on the car PDQ. I just go with the more sure thing, comparatively speaking.
[QUOTE]

Welcome to the aforementioned "Facklerite" club.
If reliable penetration through the vitals, regardless of the angle, and leaving the largest PERMANENT would channel possible is the direction you lean on this subject, you agree with Flackler's recommendations for handgun ammunition selection.
The light-weight, high-velocity, fragile bullet theory willing to give up penetration in exchange for the larger TEMPORARY crush/stretch cavity was, and continues to be, championed by fans of a couple of LEOs writng books with titles like "Stopping Power" and pretending to be scientific in their "studies".

There is a lot of agreement here. Let's just give credit where credit is due.

[S. Galbraith]

[QUOTE=Blackwater;3468105]IMO, there seem to be a lot of evidence on both sides of the issue of temp. vs. permanent wound cavaties. Personally, I'm on Al's side, but I cannot rationally discount the majority of the results from the larger temp. cavity studies. Shock is something a bad guy might overcome afterward, but a permanent wound cavity that leaks blood by the quart and quickly, is a sure fire way to stop pretty quickly, just like running an engine with no oil in it is going to put the brakes on the car PDQ. I just go with the more sure thing, comparatively speaking.
[QUOTE]

Welcome to the aforementioned "Facklerite" club.
If reliable penetration through the vitals, regardless of the angle, and leaving the largest PERMANENT would channel possible is the direction you lean on this subject, you agree with Flackler's recommendations for handgun ammunition selection.
The light-weight, high-velocity, fragile bullet theory willing to give up penetration in exchange for the larger TEMPORARY crush/stretch cavity was, and continues to be, championed by fans of a couple of LEOs writng books with titles like "Stopping Power" and pretending to be scientific in their "studies".

There is a lot of agreement here. Let's just give credit where credit is due.

Yep. Even Michael Courtney agreed that you should never compromise the FBI standards.......he just wanted to supercharge the loads to increase temporary stretch cavity at the same time.

[Jtarm]

How frequently has Dr. Fackler been shot at? Having actual skin in the game changes perspectives markedly. Our respective "laboratories" differ markedly also. I'm out.

I've seen this argument before, usually in the form of "I'll believe so & so cuz he's killed so many people.".

If that's the criteria, then argument settled: Vasily Blokhin undoubtedly killed more people with a handgun than anyone in history.

His weapon of choice: a .25 ACP.

[Petrol & Powder]

Handguns are well proven to be effective means to kill people but are terribly ineffective tools to stop people.

[USSR]

Mihec 360640 hp over 7 gr of Unique.

Have to agree. That boolit with it's cavernous hollowpoint, comprised of the right alloy will cause a world of hurt on something.

Don

[saleen322]

Mihec 180 cast with Appalacian-America ballistic tip mods.

That is the general bullet I would be looking for if you want maximum performance from the 357.

[GabbyM]

I've killed a couple animals with a 357 Magnum. Only issue I had was after euthanizing a friends German Shepard, yes a dirty bit of work. I had blood all over my jeans. I mean soaked. When I got home I stripped pants off. Tossed them on the garage floor. Next morning I awoke to the screams of my young wife. She had gone out into the garage. Seeing the jeans in a pile with blood puddled under and the smell starting. Revolver on the work bench. She thought I'd murdered someone. Poor girl was in a full blown anxiety panic attack. The muzzle flash had also totally blinded me to the point of seeing stars for a bit. Due to the fact I'd walked out into a corn field in total darkness and my eyes were night adjusted before the shot.

That gas checked BHN #9 bullet I posted earlier in this thread will expand just fine. Even without a hollow point. You just need to hit your target.

This whole idea of man stopper is a bit ridicules anyway. A man stops when he is dead. I've sat and listened to many war stories of WWII and Vietnam Vets of what it took to take down a man coming at them with a machete. One fellow Told of walking drag on road clearing in VN I Corps. Heard a twig snap, turned around and unloaded a full 20 round M16 clip across the man. He hit the mud road rutted with deuce and a half tracks. His lower body rolled into one rut and his upper body rolled into the other. Then he tried to throw his machete. Which bounced of our GI's boot. That NVA was a good soldier. Now the issue is. revolvers or 1911's don't hold 20 rounds.

Way I was taught to put a charging man down with a 1911 by some pretty savvy old salts when I was fifteen years old in 1970 and we thought I'd be taking my turn at VN. Turned out I didn't , thanks be to God. Routine is very simple and to the point. Two double taps and a head shot. Now remember back in 1970 no one used the term double tap or any other such term such as tactical gear. But whatever. Assumption was your pistol was at rest. Sine you are the one being ambushed not the other way around. Bring your pistol up on your right of the target. Swinging shotgun style up through the vertical line of the attackers right leg. When you get to the pelvis leg joint fire two shots. Recover from recoil bringing pistol back to your left. Look at heat lung area and take two shots. Then recover and take aim with sights and put one in the brain. what you just did is this. instinct shot pelvis leg joint and gut. Breaking down major bones should stop his forward movement. Not to mention inflicting extreme pain. Second shot to the gut is just in case you die before you finish. 3rd and 4th shots are the kill shots. 5th shot is to finish the job. Now remember these men teaching me this fought Japanese and Koreans who would have bombs strapped on and or grenades with pins light and stung together with shortened fuses. In WWII we stopped taking prisoners of men on the attack. Next thing they taught was run or die. Which was one more reason for the head shot. You are not an LEO making an arrest . This was military training. After you get that head shot in it's done. This day and age with IS nut bags just figure they have a bomb vest on a timer. Or stupid crack head criminals that have all manner of infections. Some of which go air born with blood spray. I do crime scene cleanup and it's pure scary what LEO and Fireman expose themselves to because they don't know better.

Summation is simple. Just like if you want to put down a deer hard. Bust a bone. CNS and all that stuff. Humans are just two legged critters. This center mass shooting BS is not a thing I adhere to or approve of. It's sort of common corps firearms training.

[Lonegun1894]

Sounds like you got some good advice, GabbyM. Too many people can't seem to wrap their minds around that a threat needs to be put down NOW, and to leave the sentimental stuff out of it. A human is just a thin skinned animal, so when it becomes a threat, deal with it the same way you would with any other dangerous game. Either break down major bones or take out the CNS, or both.

[mnewcomb59]

Some people punch numbers, others punch meat.

What if Ive shot gel and critters, and the 45 is weak compared to 357 in any real world comparison. Less penetration. Smaller wound. Less momentum. Less foot pounds. Less range.

1500 fps 357 makes over 1" wide permanent wound through deer hearts with flat nose at 50 yards , and 800 fps 45 makes half inch holes in deer hearts at 25 yards. Explain that.

A 45 is half the weight of a crossbow bolt at less than double the speed. Not at all impressive. 45 damages only what the bullet physically touches. 357 flat nose pressure washes in a 360 degree circle and damages a 1" permanent wound every time.


With all that being said, I hunt with a 6" Security Six and a 5" 1911. My 1911 is set up for 45 Super though, and I run the Lee 200-rf at 1100 fps (just a few tenths past +p, far below max load that will go 1300 fps). It casts out at 212, which makes 572 foot pounds. I haven't got to shoot a critter with this load yet, but maybe this is nearing the effectiveness of the mighty 357. Maybe

If you refuse to understand that velocity makes wounds bigger, I can't help you. You probably think your 45 makes bigger wounds than 30-30 or .30-06 because "muh bullitz bigger". A 6"+ 357 handgun is nearly rifle velocity.

How do you believe wounding works? I want to hear the insight from this fine intellectual. Do you think that the bullet makes the same sized hole from 600-2000 fps, then over 2000 fps it magically starts doing rifle damage?

[ironhead7544]

Rim Rock makes a 5 bhn 158 gr HPGC that I think would be good. Use IMR4227 for low flash and around 1100 fps. IMR4227 just has a slight orange glow instead of a huge fireball.

I would only use handloads when that was the only ammo available. The 158 gr HydraShok in 357 Magnum would be my choice.