Cast alloys for moose

[mud_alaska]

Hello all, I'm looking for some help in my new endeavor. I live in Alaska and hunt moose yearly and am fairly successful, however I'm looking for more of a challenge! I just acquired a Winchester model 94 built in 77' in 30-30 and want to use it on moose. I know people are going to tell me how the 30-30 is not there first choice or it doesn't have the energy that is needed for them. However I'm not looking for that information! What I'm looking for is what bullet alloy would be best for this endeavor. I'm hoping misses clause gets me my NOE reproduction mold for the RCBS 180 grain fpgc bullet. I will be using leverevolution powder to try and maximize the speed and penetration for this round. All is subject to change depending upon rifles response of accuracy. So with what is mentioned above what alloy would you use? I'm leaning towards Lyman #2, or Lyman #2 with 50% lead added so not to get a brittle bullet. However the 50/50 mix I've read about has primarily been used on deer or smaller game that has me concerned on its penetration on heavy game. I would really appreciate all input positive or negative from you experienced casters. Also is this the right place to ask this or should it be moved? Thanks in advance Justin

[C. Latch]

You kill mooses so often that you've grown bored with using a rifle on them.


I'd like to work up to that some day. My hat is off to you.

[HABCAN]

Within sane hunting range for that specific boolit, caliber and rifle combo, I'd go 50/50 alloy. Thousands of moose have fallen to such over the last century.

[sixshot]

I would use a softnose cast slug because thats what I used on my bull moose in my Ruger 480, one shot, down & out. You can cast a 20-25 gr. pure lead nose & water quench the rest of the bullet cast from WW alloy & you'll pretty much end up with a Nosler Partition. The pure lead will expand, then shear off & the water quenched remaining part of the bullet will continue penetrating.
As a side note I remember an article written about an Alaskan Indian killing 4 moose with his 30/30, all with the very same cast bullet. He just dug it out of the moose, knocked the spent primer out with a nail, re seated a new primer, filled the case with 4831, yes 4831! re seated the same bullet & the following year killed his winter supply of moose, true story.

Dick

[Yodogsandman]

I read that story, too! He had no front sight either so, he got real close to shoot them.

[Huntsman]

Hey great idea with us of 30-30. Me too :D. But not this year. I'm casting the NOE 165gr GC. And will be using that. For alloy in using a modified #2 alloy by adding enough pure lead until I get a BHN to 13. I did some wet newspaper testing and really liked the expansion I got. Search my post on newspaper testing. Cheers, good luck and have fun.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?289532-Cast-boolit-newspaper-test-30-30-amp-308

[Dr. A]

I did virtually the same thing. (not moose). My load is 35gr. of LEV with that very boolit. I've got 60gr. pure lead on the end and it makes for dramatic blood trails. Velocity is 2340fps.

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq322/DavidKSU88/IMG_0015_zpsd8603f88.jpg (http://s460.photobucket.com/user/DavidKSU88/media/IMG_0015_zpsd8603f88.jpg.html)

Numerous of my deer have fallen to this. My 308 and 3006 loads do not equal this load. (with CB's)

http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq322/DavidKSU88/IMG_0013_zps997c2fa7.jpg (http://s460.photobucket.com/user/DavidKSU88/media/IMG_0013_zps997c2fa7.jpg.html)

My shank alloy is WW with enough tin for good fill out. I never see any lead in the meat. The wound channels are definitely as big or bigger than they are for a moderately speedy 405gr. slug out of a 45-70. Its much quicker killer for deer than for regular jacketed bullets. I surely wouldn't hazard a guess for a moose. I have killed a few elk now, and one with a 30-30 and a core lokt bullet quite a few years ago. I think if you get close enough, it'll work. My load is pretty darned good to 200 yards. I wouldn't have confidence too much past that.

[Dr. A]

One catch to my equation, is that the 1 to 12 inch twist was necessary. I have several Marlins, most of which are the 1 to 10 twist. My XLR and CB both have the 1 to 12 inch ballard rifled twist.. Much more stable for this speedy load.

[mud_alaska]

Thank you all for your responses, greatly appreciate it! C-Latch it's not quite every year but it's getting pretty close I had some good mentors through the years. I work hard for it but it pays off in the end. Dr.A, and Sixshot I have also been contemplating doing the soft lead nose! Was thinking somewhere around a 50 grain give or take pure lead nose with ww alloy for the back with some tin added. With the soft lead nose I will be able to shoot heart and lung shots behind the shoulders and get good expansion. However if something goes awry and I hit a shoulder or bone I should still get the penetration desired wither the ww alloy. Do you think heat treatment to the ww alloy would be good or you think just straight ww + tin would be best? Huntsman thank you for the link it was a great read. Thank you all and keep the ideas coming. I just got my first grouse with the 3030 and my Roundball load!�� Love this gun.

[sixshot]

I would just do the softnose cast & water quench, I don't think heat treating is necessary, just put the bullet in the right place & get ready to eat backstraps. Also I don't think I would go real heavy with the pure lead portion because you will need all the penetration you can get. You might have to expeiment a bit but I wouldn't go over 20-25 grs of pure lead myself, going much more is going to leave a very small shank to penetrate a very large animal. The old Indian that kept using the same bullet was climbing up on the roof of his cabin & waiting until a moose came by & whacking it. The article was in an old Precision Shooting magazine. Great article if you have back issues.

Dick

[mud_alaska]

Thanks sixshot. Water dropping is a hole lot easier than heat treatment. The reason I was thinking 50 grains is most 180 rcbs molds cast a 190 to 200 grain bullet. With a 50 grain lead point you are looking at a 140 to 150 grain solid wich is more than a lot of 300 mag bullets retain nowadays. Dr.A what weight is your bullet dropping at, and with lube and gc? Thanks much Justin

[mud_alaska]

Thanks sixshot. Water dropping is a hole lot easier than heat treatment. The reason I was thinking 50 grains is most 180 rcbs molds cast a 190 to 200 grain bullet. With a 50 grain lead point you are looking at a 140 to 150 grain solid wich is more than a lot of 300 mag bullets retain nowadays. Dr.A what weight is your bullet dropping at, and with lube and gc? Thanks much Justin

[MOA]

Dr. A
Just a question, is that a xlr Marlin in thirty thirty laying on that deer??????

[GabbyM]

2% Sb, 1% Sn, 97% Pb. Water dropped from mold or heat treated. I'd add a little Cu in .1 to .2% range but that's just my compulsive fiddling disorder. At the velocity you are looking at this bullet will mushroom and not loose any appreciable weight.

If you are starting with wheel weight metal. After melting flux with some cooper sulfate. Just a spoon full. This will remove traces of zinc and a little tin. Replacing it with copper. Then cut by about one quarter with pure. WW around here run about 3% Sb. Add 1% tin then cast into ingots. If you want more copper buy some Rotto Metals #3 Babbitt with copper content for your tin source. Cu makes it more difficult to achieve good mold fill out. I just turn up the heat until it works and don't really see it as a big deal. Makes a tough bullet that deforms with out breaking. You could also just add 1 to 2% tin to WW and go for it air cooled. That alloy has worked millions of times.

[mud_alaska]

GabbyM - Thanks for the reply! Do you have any pictures of recovered bullets? Was just wondering what kind of mushrooming you are getting and what mold you are using? Thanks again Justin

[GabbyM]

There is one pick of a bullet I cast and someone else shot a deer with. In my profile album. Was a BHN#9 IIRC shot from a 38-55 through a deer into a tree. The bullets I'm shooting now in my 30-30 M94 are 150 grain FP's at a BHN #9 after heat treat. Over 26gr RX7 they just splatter on impact. Don't think I ever recovered one even out of the dirt and I loaded a thousand. Makes for a good walk around here in Illinois were largest critter is a coyote. low chance of ricochet.

Use the formula for expansion that is fairly proven. impact velocity / 100 = BHN at which velocity where expansion will stop. So a BHN #12 alloy will start to expand usefully into a mushroom at 1,200 fps. 30-180 FN. B.C. = .255 . So take your MV and figure your velocity at impact of your suspected range. OK I'll do that for you. Looks like 300 yards is 1266.5 fps. With a 100 yard zero your drop is -11.7 MOA, -36.82 inches, Then wind drift at 10 kts moa, wind inches , energy ft/lbs, time of flight (seconds). Altitude is 800 feet humidity 65% P 29.53 temp 59F. I shoot in nice weather down here. heat treating the alloy only effect haw hard it is to start expansion. Since after you work the lead the molecules re align or something.

~　


0
2000.0
0.0
-1.5
0.0
0.0
1793.8
0.0000


50
1856.6
1.0
0.51
1.0
0.5
1545.9
0.0778


100
1720.3
0.0
0.0
2.0
2.07
1327.2
0.1618


150
1592.0
-2.2
-3.45
3.1
4.83
1136.7
0.2524


200
1472.8
-4.9
-10.34
4.2
8.88
972.7
0.3504


250
1363.8
-8.1
-21.24
5.5
14.31
834.1
0.4563


300
1266.5
-11.7
-36.82
6.8
21.21
719.4
0.5705


350
1182.9
-15.8
-57.82
8.1
29.6
627.5
0.6932


400
1113.7
-20.3
-85.03
9.4
39.42
556.3
0.8240


450
1058.4
-25.3
-119.24
10.7
50.57
502.4
0.9623


500
1013.4
-30.8
-161.2
12.0
62.88
460.5
1.1073


550
975.3
-36.7
-211.63
13.2
76.26
426.5
1.2583


600
942.1
-43.2
-271.2
14.4
90.63
398.0
1.4149


　

[BrentD]

I believe you could be over thinking this. Just try one of your first two ideas and choose the more accurate one.

[GabbyM]

Continued.
Anything between the 50/50 HT and a solid non expanding will work on a Moose. The 2/1/97 water dropped is what people are looking for in 50/50 HT. Most wheel weights I get don't have 4% Sb. Hard lead shot is close. When I start with 2:6 foundry alloy I need to use some scrap lead shot to get some arsenic in so it will heat treat better. WW have arsenic. The bullets I mentioned at a HT of #9 had no arsenic. So they only gained a point or so in HT. It's a 150 grain Saeco #316 that is .880" long.

If you want a tough bullet that won't expand to much. Think shoot a bear. use 2.5% Sb 2% Sn heat treated or water dropped from mold. Use #3 Babbit for the tin so you get a little copper. The added tin will inhibit expansion. copper will almost insure not breakup. For a super tough bullet that will not expand. 5% Sb 4% Sn (#3) air cooled. Use lead free solder for the tin if you don't get #3 Babbitt. To make yourself feel good and for kicks. Test that out on steel plate and pine trees. With that big meplat bullet you will punch a 3/4" hole all the way through anything but the big Brownies.
They will not loose lead even to bone. Expensive alloy but ten pounds would last a decade then you need to rotate ammo. I only mention it because you are in Alaska. I made some 458 SOCOM bullets from less strong alloy and sold them to AK and he shot through a four foot pine stump. .458" bullets don't tend to bend though. I say [smilie=s:when a 30-30 meets a five hundred and up pound bear you need a flat point solid heavy bullet. First practice three shot stings with the lever action. I'd seriously make up both bullets. Mark the softies with paint or a detent in the nose. Load a expanding bullet in the tube and solids in the magazine. Some will scoff at that but if the animal turns after the hit you have an angle shot. The RCBS 30-180-FN is a very proven killer even when non expanding. Most cast shooters shoot non expanding bullets. If you read Fin Aggard's writings back in the 1970's he touted FMJ solids big time for heavy game.

One thing that makes the 30-180-FN RCBS kill so well is it's length. I have one here without gas check that measures 1.046" L. If it is soft at all it will bend a bit when hitting rib bone. Then you get that yaw back and forth about three times in two foot. Same deal with why the old 160 grain soft round nose 6.5x55mm Swede bullets killed so well in Africa and Europe. Even a solid cast 180 FN will start to yaw after hitting bone. By the time it settles down it's done the job. An expanding 200 gain boolit at 2,000 fps will take out at least five pounds of meat, minimum. I have buckets full of bullets around here because it's just that way. Yes I'd use a soft bullet followed by solids. Complicated setup but I'm a sick individual that insist on doing things the hard way. Another aspect to approach is this one. A solid punching through a moose may not even make it bolt and run. I've never hunted moose in my life. But a hunter on here from NE stated this a few years ago. Shoot them then set quite for a few minutes until they figure out they are dead. NO follow up shots. It may of been a Canadian but I think NE. Be sure you've double lunged them then just wait. If you spook them they can run a long ways. When you think about it. They can only bleed out as fast as there hearts can pump. With a soft point you never know what they have done. My son in law shot a black bear out in AZ a couple years ago. 420 yards with a 7mm Mag loaded with H-154gr SP. Angle shot hit then turned out the same side of rib cage. They never recovered the bear but have a photo of the wound. Just like those videos you see of bullets exciting the side of gelatin blocks. I've also butchered several animals shot at an angle with high shock 30-06 where impact side of ribs were totally destroyed and hole through lungs looked like a pencil poke. So what I'm saying is this. Perfect bullet depends upon shot angle. Range. velocity. size of animal. where you shoot it. amount of fat on the animal. Hence the term "bring enough gun". I think the 2,000 fps 200 grain FN will do just fine. Good squared up less than 45* hit with the ~2% Sb, 1% Sn, 97% Pb. Water dropped and you won't have much wait or track. That is not my guess but just what's been done thousands of times. You will have far better results than someone using a 30-06 with Remington Core Locks. Never seen them both work on Moose but Deere and black bear. Remington give the majority consumers just what they want. Face it. Most of us her hear are odd balls. Shooting cast bullets in 2015.

[GabbyM]

I believe you could be over thinking this. Just try one of your first two ideas and choose the more accurate one.

You may have something there. But in a Win 94 I think most will shoot good. So how are we to torture ourselves?

[mud_alaska]

GabbyM - Thank you for your writing! I agree with you that I'm not lookin for something that just splatters on game. I would like to have some expansion for the heart and lung shots but otherwise a non brittle hard cast would be great. This is why I'm lookin at the pure lead tip with a solid hard cast rear you get the best of both, I think. Won't know till I do testing. You also have to remember I have never taken a moose farther than 80 yards to date! I also have taken 2 bull moose with archery equipment and I'm hooked on that now to but our archery season is short. I had also thought about alternating between soft points and hard cast for the first few then topped of with hard cast. Got a lot to think about and a lot of testing to do. Thanks again Justin

[Dr. A]

Yes. the XLR is in 30-30. My bullets are water dropped as well. Much easier.

[GabbyM]

I've never had an issue with getting flat nose rifle bullets to expand and hold together. The soft nose thing may help in a pointed bullet like Lyman's 311299. But in a FP design it just blows off anyway then you are left with a flat point again. Probably with not enough push left to restart expansion. That soft nose will simply blow energy into the hide and fat on top of the ribs. Just like a Remington Cores Lock does. Which will not slow a moose down one single bit. Then you've blown half your energy just moving from the RCBS bullets .200" meplat to a .300 meplat with less weight behind it. All the testing on this has been done to tediousness then proven in the field thousands of times. It's not as boring as it sounds.

One thing I'll add. Having shot that RCBS 30-180-FN. Make sure all your hunting bullets have a proper nose diameter to chamber that long bore ride. None over your bore diameter. Both our 30-30's are right on .300" bore and a fat nose will bring them to a hard stop that takes a brass rod to clear. I have 175 here that I loaded two days after casting with a 2.5% tin alloy. They grew to a .3015" nose and now won't chamber. Kicker is the mold came new with a .299" nose then I lapped it out to .300". Some people lead simple lives while others like me work very hard to complicate ours. I just purchased a new product from NOE Molds. Nose size die set.

[mud_alaska]

GabbyM - Thank you yet again for your info. I re-read what all has been written so far and see I mis read some in your post's. Must have been the excitement to start this journey! So after the re-read this is what I got, for broadside shots or slightly quartering shots for my testing try 2% sb, 1% sn, and 97% pb water dropped wich will result in a non brittle expanding bullet. For less expansion but a even tuffet bullet try 2.5% sb, 2% sn, and rest pb heat treated or water dropped use #3 babbit for the sn to get the trace of copper. The last one is for the ultimate penetration use 5% sb, 4% sn, and rest pb but again use #3 babbit and air cool. So with the traces of copper it is making the alloy mor malubul and not break up upon impact.

Also I have read about the rcbs bullet getting stuck in people's chambers. When the cartridge is extracted the bullet can come unseated and you have an inoperable gun. This is something I will test thoroughly and make sure is not a problem!! That would be the last thing I wanted with mr.griz lurking around! The last one died at 15' a full on charge at my dad and I. The old man pulled up his 35 whelen put the 250 gr soft point between the eyes and my 7mm mag with 170 gr nosler went threw his left fron shoulder exiting out the guts cause of the angle. The bullet from the old mans gun never exited and nocked out about a 1 1/2" circle in the skull. Even being brain dead he was breathing like nothin had happened and had to shoot him down threw the heart and lungs to fish the job. This is a scenario I hope to never be in again and so far haven't but it's always on the mind!! Thanks much Justin

[mud_alaska]

GabbyM - So I looked up the #3 babbit on rotometals and it shows 84% sn, 8% sb, and 8% copper. I'm not the best with %'s so how would you get the last two's % using the #3 babbit wich has such a hi tin content and a low antimony content? I'm trying to lurn this as quick as I can and from the sounds of it the 2 bullets I want to work with rite know are the 2.5% sb, 2% sn, rest pb with #3 babbit, and 5% sb, 4%sn, rest pb with #3 babbit also. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated! I've only been casting for a year and has primarily been lee drive key slugs, and 00 - buck till I got my lee .311 rb mold for my 30-30. I've fired prolly 500 rb threw her now and am having a blast with it. Killed my first grouse with it thanksgiving day, bang flop! Now it's time to start working on a large game load, then a predator load that doesn't ruen pelts. Thanks again Justin

[sixshot]

You're missing the point, the softnose is going to shear off whether its a pointed bullet or a flat point, its going to expand, shear & penetrate. Just like I said before, like a Nolser Partition, the trick is to not over do the soft nose. With a 30/30 you only need a bit of soft nose pure lead. In my 357 Maxiumum handgun, going much slower than your 30/30 I've taken several animals with great results & full penetration using a 180 gr. soft nose cast. Only you can decide what works best, whatever you do, bullet placement & penetration is the most important. Good luck.

Dick

[GabbyM]

I use a couple different alloy calculators. So just for fun.
Assuming WW metal is 0.50% Sn, 3.0% Sb , 0.25% arsenic.
100 pounds of WW to a one pound bar of #3 yields
1.33% tin 3.05% antimony 0.25% arsenic 0.08% Copper 95.4% lead.
You may end up with about a nickel to six cents per bullet. If your cost are similar to mine. I just put in a hundred pounds to give an idea how far a bar of #3 would stretch. One pound obviously adds about 1% to 99lbs.

Here is a calculator. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators&p=2883499&viewfull=1#post2883499 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators&p=2883499&viewfull=1)
　
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OZF6XGt8lmmsqQYbtbMbNdEPtVNRaJxHiOtaZiEMG2s/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OZF6XGt8lmmsqQYbtbMbNdEPtVNRaJxHiOtaZiEMG2s/edit?usp=sharing)
　
I also use the one in wiljens Reloaders Reference program.

[mud_alaska]

Thanks much for all the help! All alloy other than ww and some pb is going to have to bee ordered for I haven't been able to find a reliable local source yet. Shipping is what kills you up hear in Alaska more than anything! Thanks again and I will report back as I start testing after Christmas I hope if anybody is interested. Thanks

[MT Chambers]

I've shot big bull moose and buffalo with pure lead from my 50/90 Sharps, as God intended.

[mud_alaska]

MT Chambers - Nice, well said!! Thanks

[Geezer in NH]

Round balls .530 had no problem penetrating moose the two I shot none were recovered as both left 2 inch exits. Pure lead.

[mud_alaska]

Geezer in NH - That's a good chunk of lead flying out there. I know that everything has been taken with small arms and pb. I'm just looking for the best bullet to make sure I get the penetration I want and need. Thanks Justin

[MT Gianni]

PM member her Shuz. I recall his posting about two Shiras Moose killed with ac ww alloy and the 3589 then maybe lighter bullet as well. The wheel is already round we don't need to invent it.