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View Full Version : Getting your guns !! Their new secret weapon



gray wolf
12-01-2015, 11:45 PM
By Sean Davis November 23, 2015

Having overwhelmingly lost the public debate (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/22/fox-news-poll-majorities-say-call-it-radical-islam-oppose-syrian-refugees.html) about whether the Obama administration’s Syrian refugee screening policy should be enhanced, Democrats have retreated to more comfortable rhetorical ground: demanding more gun control (http://www.reid.senate.gov/press_releases/2015-11-20-reid-calls-on-republican-leaders-to-immediately-close-nra-loophole-that-lets-terror-suspects-buy-paris-style-assault-rifles-and-explosives-in-america).

Their new secret weapon? A bill that would ban anyone whose name appears on a terror watch list (http://www.nctc.gov/docs/pl108_458.pdf) from buying or possessing a firearm. The idea sounds reasonable enough until you dig into the details and realize that the proposed Democratic legislation is a shocking assault on the constitutional right to due process. What makes the proposal even worse is that the Democrats’ assault on due process isn’t necessary to accomplish what they say is their only goal: preventing “dangerous terrorists” from legally purchasing or possessing a firearm.

The new bill, which Democrats have dubbed the Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2015 (https://www.congress.gov/114/bills/s551/BILLS-114s551is.pdf), gives the U.S. attorney general the authority (https://www.congress.gov/114/bills/s551/BILLS-114s551is.pdf) to “deny the sale, delivery, or transfer of a firearm or the issuance of a firearms or explosives license or permit to dangerous terrorists.”

According to several Democratic sponsors of the bill, the proposed law would allow the attorney general to deny a criminal background check clearance to any individual whose name appears on the national terror watch list. The huge problem with this expansive new power is that there are precisely zero statutory criteria for inclusion on this massive list. In fact, when statutory authority for the centralized government database was first codified into law via the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (http://www.nctc.gov/docs/pl108_458.pdf), Congress gave all authority for determining criteria for inclusion in the watch list (http://www.nctc.gov/docs/pl108_458.pdf) to unelected, unaccountable government bureaucrats. If some faceless Beltway bureaucrat decides you might be a terrorist, then you’re a terrorist. End of story.

It gets even worse, though. If your name erroneously appears on that watch list, which as of 2013 included nearly 900,000 names (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/3/terror-watch-list-grows-875000/?page=all), the Democrats’ proposed legislation renders you virtually powerless to find out why your name is on there, let alone to have it removed. And having your name erroneously or fraudulently added to that list isn’t as far-fetched as you might think.

In 2014, for example, Weekly Standard writer and Fox News contributor Stephen F. Hayes (https://twitter.com/stephenfhayes) was informed that somebody added his name (http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/09/stephen-hayes-on-dhs-terrorist-watchlist-195996) to the Department of Homeland Security’s terrorist watch list. There is zero credible evidence that he has any ties whatsoever to terrorism or to any terrorist organizations. Yet, under the Democrats’ new bill, he and everyone else who is erroneously listed would be banned from ever purchasing or possessing a firearm. Hayes’ apparent crime was traveling overseas for a cruise (http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/09/stephen-hayes-on-dhs-terrorist-watchlist-195996). Hayes is not alone. Each year, thousands of names end up on the terror watch list for no good reason whatsoever (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/10/07/report-thousands-wrongly-listed-on-terror-watch-list.html).

Under the Democrats’ proposal, the government doesn’t have to tell you why your name is on the list. The proposed law allows the government to keep that information secret. And if you decide to take the government to court over it, the Democrats’ bill creates a brand new legal standard that tilts the scales of justice against you.

Unlike a standard criminal trial, in which a jury must decide beyond a reasonable doubt whether you have violated a criminal law, under this proposed law the government must only show a preponderance of evidence (https://www.congress.gov/114/bills/s551/BILLS-114s551is.pdf)–evidence which will almost certainly be redacted–in order to strip you of your Second Amendment right to defend yourself and your family from terrorists:
In any case in which the Attorney General has denied the transfer of a firearm to a prospective transferee pursuant to section 922A of this title or has made a determination regarding a firearm permit applicant pursuant to section 922B of this title, an action challenging the determination may be brought against the United States. The petition shall be filed not later than 60 days after the petitioner has received actual notice of the Attorney General’s determination under section 922A or 922B of this title. The court shall sustain the Attorney General’s determination upon a showing by the United States by a preponderance of evidence that the Attorney General’s determination satisfied the requirements of section 922A or 922B, as the case may be. To make this showing, the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.
Remember, you don’t have to be convicted of any crime whatsoever to end up on the terrorist watch list. You don’t even have to be charged with a crime to lose your constitutional rights under the proposed law. If this proposed legislation were to become law, some DHS bureaucrat–perhaps the type of bureaucrat who wrote earlier this year that “right-wing terrorists” pose the biggest threat (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html?_r=0) to American national security–only needs to snap his fingers and add your name to the blacklist in order to immediately deprive you of your Second Amendment rights and your constitutional right to due process (https://www.aclu.org/news/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed). You don’t even get to review the entirety of the evidence against you.

The blatant unconstitutional deprivation of due process is more than sufficient reason to oppose this piece of legislation, but it’s not the only reason. There may actually be an even bigger reason to reject it: it is completely unnecessary, because the U.S. attorney general already has the power to prevent “dangerous terrorists” from legally buying guns, and that power can be exercised without unconstitutional deprivation of due process.

All the attorney general has to do to prevent “dangerous terrorists” from legally purchasing firearms is to indict them. That’s it. Charge these terrorists with terrorism, and their legal right to purchase firearms goes up in smoke. That’s because existing federal law (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/identify-prohibited-persons) states that anyone who’s been indicted for any crime that carries a prison sentence of more than one year–and felony indictment for conspiracy to commit terrorism certainly satisfies that standard–automatically becomes ineligible to purchase or possess a firearm (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/identify-prohibited-persons):
The Gun Control Act (GCA) makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms. 18 USC 922(g). Transfers of firearms to any such prohibited persons are also unlawful. 18 USC 922(d).

These categories include any person:

Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

who is a fugitive from justice;

who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;

who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

who is an illegal alien;

who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions;

who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;

who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or

who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (enacted by the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act of 1997, Pub. L. No. 104-208, effective September 30, 1996). 18 USC 922(g) and (n).
The language in the Democrats’ new gun control bill certainly suggests that these “dangerous terrorists” should be indicted for terrorism. After all, it gives the attorney general authority to deny background check clearance to anyone “known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism[.]”

Engaging in terrorism is a federal crime. Providing material support for terrorism is a federal crime. Preparing to engage in terrorism is a federal crime. If there is sufficient evidence to show that these individuals are engaged in terrorism, the best way to make America safer is to indict these terrorists and arrest them.

The attorney general absolutely has that power, which raises a very troubling question given the premise of the Democrats’ proposed legislation: why are hundreds of thousands of known, dangerous terrorists walking free in America right now? Why have they not been indicted for their crimes? Why is American law enforcement not working 24/7 to secure indictments for these terrorists, to arrest them, and to convict them for their crimes against America?

The simple answer is that there’s not sufficient evidence to indict, let alone convict, the hundreds of thousands of names included on the terrorist watch list. Once you realize that fact, you realize that the purpose of this bill isn’t to prevent “dangerous terrorists” from possessing guns–the attorney general can already accomplish that with a simple indictment–it’s to prevent evil Republicans from possessing political power. The proposed legislation from Democrats is nothing more than a clumsy attempt at wedge-issue politics: rather than dealing with an actual terror threat from ISIS, just pretend that Republicans and the monstrous National Rifle Association are hell-bent on protecting a “loophole (http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/260903-reid-gop-prioritizing-nra-over-terrorism)” that allows dangerous terrorists to get guns.
Due process isn’t a “loophole,” though. Due process is a fundamental right enshrined in the Constitution of the United States. It states that the government cannot permanently deprive you of your constitutional rights unless and until a jury of your peers has decided beyond a reasonable doubt that you have committed a criminal act.

The silly gun control proposal from Democrats attempts to turn the principle of due process on its head. Instead of requiring a jury of your peers to determine beyond a reasonable doubt that you have committed a crime, Democrats have decided that power should belong to a handful of Washington, D.C.-based bureaucrats. Instead of allowing you to review and challenge all evidence presented against you, Democrats have decided that evidence should be kept secret. Instead of requiring a legal standard that all reasonable doubt must be eliminated prior to the government-sanctioned revocation of your rights, Democrats have decided that a mere preponderance of evidence should be plenty.

Democrats aren’t doing this because they think it’s the only possible way to prevent terrorists from acquiring weapons. We know this because we’ve established that the attorney general already has all the power she needs to indict, arrest, convict, and sentence known, dangerous terrorists. Democrats are doing this because they think it will benefit them politically. In the wake of a massive terrorist attack on free, innocent people in Paris, Washington Democrats have decided that their real enemy isn’t ISIS. Just like Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Clinton declared in a recent debate (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/democratic-debate-which-enemy-are-you-most-proud-of/), their real enemies are Republicans (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/democratic-debate-which-enemy-are-you-most-proud-of/).

And they’ll do whatever they can to defeat these dangerous electoral terrorists…even if it requires the wholesale elimination of the constitutional right to due process.

Prospector Howard
12-02-2015, 12:16 PM
This is some scary stuff, thanks for putting this info up gray wolf. They never stop coming up with backdoor ways of chipping away at the constitution. The idiots that came up with this are the real terrorists. Everything is the opposite of what the supposed intent was to be, now. "Patriot Act", "Affordable Care Act", "Citizens United", "No Child Left Behind", all the "free trade" laws that are supposed to increase jobs and really just destroy all the manufacturing jobs; the list goes on and on.

popper
12-02-2015, 01:39 PM
Dad said he got on the no-fly list when he was 70, someone else with the same name. Yes another gungrabber bill attempting to use fear to get it passed.

dragon813gt
12-02-2015, 01:46 PM
When are they going to realize that criminals don't buy firearms legally. They will do whatever it takes to acquire one. Just another back door grab controlled by unelectable faceless bureaucrats. The government does not to be full time. They create stuff like this because they have nothing better to do.

flyingmonkey35
12-02-2015, 01:56 PM
And how hard would it be for them yo put every current gun holder on the watch list

mexicanjoe
12-02-2015, 01:59 PM
Rain on them!!!! I've gotwitnesses that saw me " swear to preserve,protect and defend the Consititution of the United States" and I will continue to do so... If you want to violate our rights, then don't be whining when you are on the receiving end of a Class 1, Grade"A" butt whuppin'.... Me personally I think I'll ignore ALL illegal E.O.s and unconstitutional laws a la " civil disobedience". Anybody with me?

Whiterabbit
12-02-2015, 02:08 PM
You should see how NPR is spinning this one:

"Republican presidential candidates favor giving guns to terrorists"

That's about it, word for word. And in my state, NPR is the closest thing we have to balanced news. Complete with the never ending climate debate (where there is no debate) and quips against any concept that goes against pro gay marriage, pro abortion, and pro high-taxation-for-high-services (to the poor). All other news sources are even more over the top, and skewed one way or the other.

Every Friday, they bring in two "talking heads" to talk about the week's events. one is supposed to be right leaning, the other left leaning. The Right leaning guy said "I favor just about any gun control bill you would put in front of me" and then lay out the basic framework for why a person might not support a gun control bill.

This is what passes for "balanced" in a liberal state.

I am so sick of the one sided rant on climate change.

Remember, the civil war was about slavery. Ask a blue state-er if "he has ever heard of the word 'abolitionist'." Their response will be "It's more politically correct to say 'he/she', not 'he'".

dtknowles
12-02-2015, 03:20 PM
And how hard would it be for them yo put every current gun holder on the watch list

Airlines would go broke and business would grind to a halt.

Tim

Whiterabbit
12-02-2015, 03:21 PM
Like killing napster, they don't have to get everyone, they just have to make a few examples.

Mytmousemalibu
12-02-2015, 06:34 PM
This is extremely dangerous grounds they are playing with, i think in this case more than ever. Its dangerous not only to an important aspect of our lives but our liberty & safety. With all the recent terrorism that has been going on, widely publicized active shooters and things going on and the way this tyrannical $**t is trying to be passed off to John Q. Public, this could generate a lot of support not only from the ignorant but those that are trying to extinguish what little of the real America is left. I personally, will be forced like a dog into a corner to the point of civil disobedience and "they" can have my firearms after they are pryed from my cold, dead fingers. I doubt I will stand alone. Boy just perfect timing with the active shooter that took place in deadbeat central today with guys wearing body armor to put the icing on the turd. Guess what I bought last week.... You guessed it, body armor. So what does that make me? Automatically a terrorist by proxy? Besides that, i have no problem voicing my opinions in objection since I'm very much pro gun and live by the Constitution. Also a federally certified aviation mech and FFL holder, im probably a shoe-in for their anti-gun $**t list. Easy to see how easy it would be for this bill to euthanize us. This thread should be a front page sticky for all to see. I will be posting a printout of the article on the bulletin board at work and anywhere else I can. This needs to be made known to all of our kind. We have all heard the tyrant say publicly he wants gun control by Christmas, you had better believe this late in the game, he's going to be pulling out the stops to swing the death blows to this country.

Whiterabbit
12-02-2015, 06:53 PM
you better believe this late in the game he is going to do nothing of the sort or else he will lose the white house in 2016 even if Trump gets the ticket.

No, he will cry and whine and let the republicans in the house and senate do whatever they want because he knows that they could have support of 60% f hte people, they will be crucified in the media. And THAT is what will count in 2016, where the goal is not only the white house but enough swing in both houses to get dems across the bench.

Then it is ON, and they will have two years to do whatever they please, and you bet it will be un-undoable.

I'm not wrong on the strategy, I just hope I am wrong on the execution.

Whiterabbit
12-02-2015, 06:55 PM
I also submit, if you are labeled a terrorist, I believe you lose ALL SORTS of due process yes? Guns will be the least of your worry. Why do you think everyone from dime store robbers to tag-team mass shooters are getting labeled as terrorists instead of criminals these days?

Due process.

MaryB
12-03-2015, 02:01 AM
Snowballs chance in hell of going anywhere!

Mica_Hiebert
12-03-2015, 02:04 AM
wonder if these clowns from california where on a no fly list? might be awful convenient if they where! :popcorn:

nemesisenforcer
12-03-2015, 02:12 AM
wonder if these clowns from california where on a no fly list? might be awful convenient if they where! :popcorn:

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Whiterabbit
12-03-2015, 12:38 PM
Snowballs chance in hell of going anywhere!

Never say never. make it a ballot initiative and it will pass.

Funny thing our founding fathers understood about true democracy and representative democracy: Make it a popular vote, and The People will always vote their freedoms away. Even a liberal state like California will vote to ban gay marriage. twice!

It's the #1 benefit to representative democracy.

quilbilly
12-03-2015, 01:24 PM
For at least 30 years communist governments have labeled anyone that opposes the Party as a terrorist. There are Crats in this country who have already done this in press conferences.

A pause for the COZ
12-03-2015, 01:26 PM
Need to fight this stupid idea with all we have. Not because I think Terrorist should have access to guns.
Who gets to define who is a terrorist? Right now the media/ Gov define that as an angry middle aged white guy with a gun.
As soon as some thing happens and they find out a old white guy was the perp. Takes them 10 seconds to start spouting evil terrorist intent.
If it is an actual terrorist such as the Boston bombers, now these people in California. They wont even utter the phrase for fear of offending some one.

So here we are, They want the Patriot act, The armed office of home land security and now the ability to point out who is an enemy of the state.
Ummmm that's some scary stuff right there. Scary!!!

nagantguy
12-03-2015, 01:56 PM
Hope ya'll have your three B's cause it's gonna get ugly fast.

Whiterabbit
12-03-2015, 02:08 PM
For at least 30 years communist governments have labeled anyone that opposes the Party as a terrorist. There are Crats in this country who have already done this in press conferences.

And republican statists do it too. Nor are we immune. It is immensly difficult to remind ourselves that, even in open-and-shut cases of guilt, those that commited these terrible acts are still entitled to Due Process, and all other NATURAL rights!

As I said before. Speedy trial, quick judgement of guilt, and straight to the gallows. But it's SO dangerous to start circumventing the process. someone here was saying "Guantanamo style incarceration". Really? for US citizens? When it's your family in Connecticut in jail for "violating magazine capacity laws" that we make mention of as civil disobedience, will you still want such draconian measures?

The pendulum swings. The republican statists give us citizens united and the patriot act, and the democrats USE it! We need to get our representatives to stop giving the left so many statist tools to crush us.

And this idea of homebred terrorism is a really good tool the dems must be salivating all over!

quilbilly
12-03-2015, 03:14 PM
That is why I now call them Crats and the Crat Party. Demo-crat's root is rule of the people (more or less) and "Demo" no longer applies. The Crat Party is the ruling government class party that includes all statists including Republicans. Outsiders are counterrevolutionaries. Counterrevolutionaries who support the Constitution according to the serious Crats are terrorists or at least mentally ill in need of at least a re-education camp to get their minds PC.

MUSTANG
12-03-2015, 03:23 PM
Obama has never been shy in telling the American Public his intentions; instead the press and most of the US populace reinterpreted his 2008 campaign speeches as just another politician saying what they needed to in order to get elected. After all, "He really can't mean/intend to do what what he says. Some of the Obama statements concerning his Agenda spelled out in 2008 that have/are coming to fruition:



Fundamentally Change America.

Climate Change is the greatest threat.

What I've said is that we would put a cap-and-trade system in place that is more -- that is as aggressive if not more aggressive than anybody else's out there, so if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can, it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted.

Quality, Affordable, and Portable Health Coverage for all.

We need a private, civilian army that is as well funded as the regular Army.

“I’m not going to take away your guns,” Obama promised in September 2008. However, he advocated closing the loophole that allows for gun purchases without background checks at gun shows and for reinstating the assault weapons ban.



As defined by his statements and actions; I see Obama as fundamentally opposed to the US Constitution, individual freedom, and Liberty (not to mention individual responsibility). It is naive to believe that Obama is blowing hot air and will not move forward to implement additional "Gun Control" Legislation, or issue Presidential edicts to erode/destroy personal ownership of firearms. What is amazing is that our House is so full of weak, self serving, and baseless members that no Bill of Impeachment has been tendered by even a single member of the house despite Obama's Imperial Presidential actions over the last 7 years.

shooter93
12-03-2015, 08:32 PM
One of the first things Obama said yesterday when being interviewed about the CA. shooting.......We have people on a no fly list who can't fly but they can walk in and buy a gun. That should stop. Easy to make a list and even being exonerated wiould take time and expense and probably confiscation of your firearms while they "sort it out"

MaryB
12-04-2015, 12:54 AM
Demonrats!


That is why I now call them Crats and the Crat Party. Demo-crat's root is rule of the people (more or less) and "Demo" no longer applies. The Crat Party is the ruling government class party that includes all statists including Republicans. Outsiders are counterrevolutionaries. Counterrevolutionaries who support the Constitution according to the serious Crats are terrorists or at least mentally ill in need of at least a re-education camp to get their minds PC.

DougGuy
12-04-2015, 01:58 AM
News said tonite that the bill to let them deny firearms sales to those on a terror watch list failed in the senate, along with another bill that would have expanded background checks.

gray wolf
12-04-2015, 01:02 PM
Two bills, one was stand alone and was was to be attached to an Obama care bill of sorts.

I know one did not get the votes but I am not sure about the second one.

Hope your correct Doug, and thank you for the UP-date.

M-Tecs
12-04-2015, 01:27 PM
For some on this board tell me again that there is no difference between Democrat's and Republicans?????????