Shortening a .45-70govt

[Mgderf]

Alright. I'm relatively new to the site, and to reloading, but I've been shooting for multiple decades.

I have a brand new H&R Handi-rifle in .45-70govt. that I would like to use to take Whitetail deer.
I live in Indiana, where our maximum legal rifle cartridge case length is 1.80" (no maximum for overall length).
I'm having trouble finding a load for a trimmed down .45-70 case to match the bullets and powder(s) I have.

My cases will be trimmed to 1.8".
I would like to use either Trailboss, or IMR 4198
my pills are powder coated 405gr RNFP sized to .457 or a 500gr Spire point bullet also sized to .457

I was told elsewhere to look for .45-60 data because it's case is close to 1.80" and that it was about 85% case capacity of the full size .45-70 case. I can't seem to find any data for .45-60, so I'm here with hat in hand to ask for some help.

Can I use what I have, or do I need a new combination?
I would greatly appreciate any help.

[wgr]

Alright. I'm relatively new to the site, and to reloading, but I've been shooting for multiple decades.

I have a brand new H&R Handi-rifle in .45-70govt. that I would like to use to take Whitetail deer.
I live in Indiana, where our maximum legal rifle cartridge case length is 1.80" (no maximum for overall length).
I'm having trouble finding a load for a trimmed down .45-70 case to match the bullets and powder(s) I have.

My cases will be trimmed to 1.8".
I would like to use either Trailboss, or IMR 4198
my pills are powder coated 405gr RNFP sized to .457 or a 500gr Spire point bullet also sized to .457

I was told elsewhere to look for .45-60 data because it's case is close to 1.80" and that it was about 85% case capacity of the full size .45-70 case. I can't seem to find any data for .45-60, so I'm here with hat in hand to ask for some help.

Can I use what I have, or do I need a new combination?
I would greatly appreciate any help.i shoot that round in a handi. for cast i load 400 grain lbtlfn on to of imr 4065.using lyman data for the 45-70 use starting loads and go up, pm me for my loads if you want

[altheating]

I found that my Ruger #1 shoots best with shortened cases. Found it by accident after my wife's uncle gave me about 70 old 45/70 blanks. I fired the blanks and found I had to trim the cases as the crimps split the necks down about 1/8" after sizing. Without thinking about OAL, I seated the 350 gr, NOE Boolit in the crimp groove, over 4198 powder. It's now my "45/70 special" at 1600 fps.

[Tackleberry41]

Seems like not having a rule about overall length you could just shorten the case, but still use a 45-70 overall length and the load data.

[Good Cheer]

Tackleberry41,
Having relocated to Indiana I'm having to look at the various options.
Since the early eighties my cast boolit deer rifle has been a 375x45-70 on a Ruger single shot. But it's not legal here.
I'm thinking about breech seating paper patched or lubed cast and using a shortened case to seal the breech ala Christian Sharps.
Otherwise, dunno, maybe I will just use a really long barreled fast twist scoped TC Renegade or my "45-70" that's really a TC New Englander with a .458 bore barrel.
But on the bright side maybe Hoosiers hunters will buy enough torches and pitchforks to get the regulation changed.
Meanwhile, I've read of hunters using the shortened 45-70 case with success, the technique you're looking at.

[wgr]

i live in southern in. i use a short 45-70 cant seem to tell any diff.just use 45-70 data

[Tackleberry41]

My family all live in Indiana, they always had some pretty dumb hunting rules there.

[725]

When "the man" checks your rifle and the side of the barrel says .45-70, and you indicate a .45-70 is too long for the stupid rule, will he actually measure your case length to see if you are in compliance or just issue a ticket?
What a dumb rule. Good luck.

[Scharfschuetze]

I think that you should be able to trim to your goal of 1.8" and then seat your boolit to your formal overall length as if your case was still the original length. As you're shooting a single shot, you don't need to crimp. Just make sure you have good neck tension to hold the boolit and if a lube groove is above the lip due to the shortened case, just carry your spare rounds in a dust/dirt proof container or a clean pocket.

By doing this, your internal volume remains the same as a full length case and you can use your previously developed loads or loads from a manual in your new 45/1.8" Indiana Special.

Good luck with the deer hunt!

[osteodoc08]

How long are those Hornady cases again? The "short" ones loaded with the FTX J-werds?

I'd just start with a starting load and work up.

[Johnny_Cyclone]

how long are those hornady cases again?

Hornady 45-70 FTX Brass
max case length:..................2.050"
case trim length:.................2.040"


loading ftx™ bullets requires some specialized techniques in certain
cases. To achieve a high ballistic coefficient we had to lengthen the
ogive, or nose, of the bullet. Sometimes this requires that the cartridge
case to be trimmed shorter than the suggested .010" under saami max
length that we recommend for conventional bullets. Follow prescribed
trim lengths exactly as presented in the ftx™ data for optimum results.

[Johnny_Cyclone]

I was told elsewhere to look for .45-60 data because it's case is close to 1.80" and that it was about 85% case capacity of the full size .45-70 case. I can't seem to find any data for .45-60, so I'm here with hat in hand to ask for some help.

45-60

Winchester shortened the .45-70 government cartridge to operate through the Winchester 1976 rifle's lever action system .
minimum trim to length 1.880"

Some data:
http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/LD-%20HL%2045-60%20pearce.pdf

[bruce drake]

The Conservation Officers in Indiana carry a metal gauge. They gauge the cartridges you are carrying or in the rifle if they have to check. It is 1.8" for brass length. Minimal Caliber is 35 so there is a hole in the gauge for .35 caliber bullets so they can easily check the bullet diameter and brass length. I load a 358 Winchester with 1.8" cut down brass (very short neck) and a 200gr Roundnose bullet in a Mauser 98. I'm finishing a rebuild of a 50-70 Govt Trapdoor for next year. 42gr of Pyrodex with a 200gr 45caliber saboted bullet has been my recent work at an Express Load. It should be a decent 50-75 yard deer whacker when I'm done.

[StrawHat]

...I'm finishing a rebuild of a 50-70 Govt Trapdoor for next year. 42gr of Pyrodex with a 200gr 45caliber saboted bullet has been my recent work at an Express Load. It should be a decent 50-75 yard deer whacker when I'm done...

This is an interesting idea. I look forward to hearing more about it.

Kevin

[Petrol & Powder]

What were they attempting to regulate with that law?

[nekshot]

What were they attempting to regulate with that law?

idiots never heard how shut gun slugs can bounce along the ground a looong ways!

[Tackleberry41]

I have never gotten any sort of clear answer on what they were attempting to regulate. Most enforcing them probably don't know 'just doing their job'.

One could presume it was an attempt to limit the max distance a bullet would go when hunting, so nobody in the distance was hit on accident. So made a length limit and caliber limit, which would pretty much leave you with guns w rainbow trajectories that even at max elevation would not go very far. Or maybe somebody sat down and tried to find regulations that would make it near impossible to have a legal gun to hunt with.

My uncles would talk about hunting, I would say why not just use this? Weren't allowed. I seem to remember at once they could not use center fire rifles of any kind. It was pretty much restricted to shotgun slugs and muzzle loaders. Most of them simply hunted in KY, where pretty much anything is legal.

[Hickory]

Here in the buckeye state you can use everything from a 38 special to a full length 50-110.

[bruce drake]

This is an interesting idea. I look forward to hearing more about it.

Kevin

I plan to develop a thread for this forum once its all complete. I did the test fire of the load just the other day. It was a great sense of satisfaction when I touched off the rifle for the first time since it was disassembled into just parts probably well over a decade ago by someone else.

Bruce

[John Boy]

OK, lets think about this:
* Your allowed to shoot any caliber where the case is 1.80 or less inches
* You have a 45-70 rifle
* The max SAMMI case length on a 45-70 is 2.105
So to use your 45-70, you'd have to shorten the case 0.305"
The issue is the bullet leading in the leade with a short 45-70 case ...
My recommendation is use a 490gr 45-70 bullet (Lyman #2 alloy) such as the long Matthews 457677 bore riding bullet and seat it out of the case so the nose of the bullet is in the leading bore cuts. This will minimize any leading in the leade.
Be sure to reload some - take to the range and test for accuracy at 100 & 200yds
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/547/547964.jpg

[waksupi]

OK, lets think about this:
* Your allowed to shoot any caliber where the case is 1.80 or less inches
* You have a 45-70 rifle
* The max SAMMI case length on a 45-70 is 2.105
So to use your 45-70, you'd have to shorten the case 0.305"
The issue is the bullet leading in the leade with a short 45-70 case ...
My recommendation is use a 490gr 45-70 bullet (Lyman #2 alloy) such as the long Matthews 457677 bore riding bullet and seat it out of the case so the nose of the bullet is in the leading bore cuts. This will minimize any leading in the leade.
Be sure to reload some - take to the range and test for accuracy at 100 & 200yds
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/547/547964.jpg

I would not recommend that as a hunting bullet. I shot a deer with one years ago, and it was a long, long tracking job. Find something with a flat nose.

[Petrol & Powder]

My solution would be to use a standard .45-70 cartridge and pay the fine for that misdemeanor if I got a summons.

You got me officer, really sorry you had to stop looking for real criminals in order to charge me with hunting with a cartridge that's 0.305" too long. Why yes, I'll be happy to sign that summons and come to court. Have a good day officer and thank you for your service. [smilie=s:.

[Scharfschuetze]

You got me officer, really sorry you had to stop looking for real criminals in order to charge me with hunting with a cartridge that's 0.305" too long. Why yes, I'll be happy to sign that summons and come to court. Have a good day officer and thank you for your service. [smilie=s:.

I'm sure that's in jest, but it might be a little more trouble than that in the real world. I don't know about Indiana, but in many states, depending on the level of the crime, a game violation can lead to the forfeiture of your rifle and possibly your vehicle as well as your hunting privileges for several years. I'd look into that issue before being so bold. :|

It's really easy to work around the law and still be legal as I posted in my initial post to this thread. It's just not that hard and you'll still be able to use any recommended load in the manual or your previous loads without fear.

[monge]

Were did all the common sense go? Lord give the law makers the wisdom to be fair and just!

[Rick Hodges]

Michigan adopted the same law with the caveat that the case had to be straight walled. We already allowed pistols with straight walled cases of at least 35 cal., shotguns or muzzleloaders in the southern third of the state. (the thinking was the area was heavier populated and the range of the weapons would be "limited" The "shotgun zone" had existed for some 100 yrs. They opened up the rules to allow pistol caliber rifles in that area.
I know a Marlin 1895 with a 405 gr. Lee will function just fine with no change in the load other than shortening the case. More bullet is exposed but it still works. That said, I just bought a single shot 44 mag. I "needed" the new rifle. LOL.
The rule seems silly but it is an improvement from shotgun/muzzloader only. Being caught with the wrong weapon could result in fine, forfeiture of weapon and hunting privilege for up to 3 years and restitution charges for the animal. (the loss of hunting privilege goes for all other states that have a reciprocal agreement, as I understand it most states in the country)
For all the hassle if caught, I would just as soon comply with the rule. You can still use a shotgun or muzzleloader and not give much up in capability.

[TCLouis]

Go with the trimmed case length and loaded to normal 45-70 length.

May have to protect the lube from pocket lint, but it should work with all but the shortest boolits.

[kycrawler]

we just moved out of Indiana last year. Before this 1.1-1.8 case length 35caliber and up Indiana was restricted to shotgun slugs muzzle loaders or centerfire pistols . This law opened up a lot of different rifles and cartridges for hunters the northern 2/3 of Indiana is flatter than a pancake with very few real woodlots mostly corn fields and beans with some treed fence rows . open expanses in semi populated areas with frozen ground not really a good combination for jim bob deer hunter that has the same box of ammo he bought with the rifle 4 years ago. I live in Missouri now any centerfire that holds less than 11 rounds is good here

[Ric-san]

Wow...note to self not to hunt in Indiana....

[Good Cheer]

I'm thinking about gee golly why can't I breech seat a paper patched 280 grain hollow point in a 9.3x74R with the primed brass cut back to 1 3/4"?
Er uh, but what kind of consumable material would I use for the powder bags?
You know, tinkering with this stuff is almost enough fun to make you want idiot legislators.