lathe minimum spindle diameter?

[shawnba67]

I have zero lathe experience my dad has 40years. Ive decided I want a lathe so as to pursue my own gunsmithing projects. I have found a very decent old southbend that tames heavh 10 toolinv but isnt a heavy 10 its a 31a or something. Has 18-20" on centers. My main problsm with it is the spindle is only .870" how likely is this to really handicap my projects? Obviously no bull barrels longer than 18" any advice or tales of what can and cant be done with a small sljndle lathe

[Alan in GA]

You could manage with the small spindle hole and a LONG bed (36"). And you could manage with a short bed and LARGE spindle hole.
However I think you would be seriously handicapped with the lathe you mentioned as far as barrel work.

[iraiam]

Your going to want a much larger spindle bore for full gunsmithing usage. I have a small 10X21 lathe that I do some personal gunsmithing on, The spindle bore is .787, this bore has been problematic on numerous occasions, I was able to work around the issues by making some special holding tools. If I was buying lathe specifically for gunsmithing work it would be a 'gunsmithing' lathe will a big spindle bore.

I can crown standard size barrels, machining the breech end of the barrel has been problematic, I made a custom chuck adapter with a larger bore to space the chuck away from the lathe spindle a few inches, this allowed me to properly chuck and machine it but reduced the distance between centers.

[bob208]

to me and others the spindle hole is of less importance then a long bed. not that the large hole is not nice or useful.it is the long bed would be of more use. I know one gunsmith that made a lifetime business using a atlas-craftsman lathe with a 4 1/2' bed .he installed barrels put on muzzle breaks. contoured barrels.

I have a 9" southbend with a 4' bed that does most of my work. but when I need a bigger hole or a longer bed I use my 14 1/2 " southbend. it has a 8' bed and a 1 1/2 " hole.

[Alan in GA]

Perfection is a 12" x 36" lathe with a large spindle hole! There is a nice South Bend 10x34-36" in Smyrna, GA for sale right now. $1,500 or a bit less if I understood the owner correctly. I sold it to him (the 2nd owner) a few years ago. Never had even been used much (Steady rest still new in South Bend box in oil paper! --- origional owner never learned how to thread!!!)
I've had an Atlas 12x36" small spindle and now have a 12" x 36" Clausing w/ large spindle, the best of both worlds.

[KCSO]

Since I have used one of these for a number of years I can tell you that although inconvienient at times you can do everything you need to do in gunsmithing with it. You will need a center rest as some jobs will have to be done out away from the spindle but I can see no difference in accuracy between that and putting it in the headstock of my Grizzly. I have threaded a number of barrels and never messed up one with the Southbend.

[smokeywolf]

If you've got the budget to tolerate it, I favor a spindle bore of at least 1.25". That way you can use 5C collets.

[Char-Gar]

Sometimes reality and fantasy gets confused. The reality question is, what will you really use the lathe for? We can all come up with out ideal fantasy lathe, but if we are never going to use all the potential, our fantasy lathe just cost more money and takes up more room.

I am never going to turn or chamber a rifle barrel. I am never going to try and hog off metal in just a pass or two. I am a very patient worker and can make multiple passes to get the same result on a lighter lathe. I don't need quick change tooling or any other gizmos that make things go faster. I enjoy doing things the old way and am in no hurry.

My 9 X 18 1947 Logan is ideal for my purposes. I consider it the ultimate reloading tool as I can make and modify reloading tooling and so odd jobs on guns.

So, while folks may say you need this or that, my question is what do you really need, based on what you want to do and how you work? You are the only one that can answer that.

[Alan in GA]

He mentioned barrels.... the reason for the suggestions.

[aspangler]

Apprentice GS here. I have an old model "A" 9'' Southbend. I have contured barrels, threaded them, and squared up Mauser actions with it. Many small parts made. I may have an exceptional lathe, but I can do a .0005" repeatable cut with a SHARP tool. I inherited mine from my father. No amount of money would buy it. BTW I can cut something on my old lathe and then put it in the lathe at the shop and it is so close we can't measure the runout. Love my old Southbend.

[Char-Gar]

Apprentice GS here. I have an old model "A" 9'' Southbend. I have contured barrels, threaded them, and squared up Mauser actions with it. Many small parts made. I may have an exceptional lathe, but I can do a .0005" repeatable cut with a SHARP tool. I inherited mine from my father. No amount of money would buy it. BTW I can cut something on my old lathe and then put it in the lathe at the shop and it is so close we can't measure the runout. Love my old Southbend.

Vingage lathes, if properly care for and maintained, can be very accurate. When I set my Logan up, I turned a 14" bar between centers and moved the tailstock over a smidge and I only got a .0005 taper in 14 inches. That is plenty good for me.

[Char-Gar]

He mentioned barrels.... the reason for the suggestions.

" My main problsm with it is the spindle is only .870" how likely is this to really handicap my projects? Obviously no bull barrels longer than 18" any advice or tales of what can and cant be done with a small sljndle lathe"

He really didn't say what his "projects" were, but only mentioned barrels as a limitation. My response was intended to help him sharpen up what his projects would be. If he wants to turn full length rifles barrels he will need a longer lathe and bigger hole in the spindle, but I don't know if that is on his agenda. If he wants to thread and chamber a pre-turned sporter blank, he can probably get enough through the spindle hole that with a steady rest, he can get the job done. He needs to think through what, in the real world, he want to do with the lathe. That will determine the "must have" features of the lathe.

[country gent]

The spindle hole size can be a big plus. I have worked on monarchs that had a 1 1/2-1 3/4 spindle bore and was very usefull. One shop had a warney and swasey turret lathe with an 8" hole thru the spindle. As stated you need to decide what you want to do and how you want to do it A spindle with good sized hole chuck on one end and spider on back side allows for quick easy set up of barrels and longer work. On lathes with long beds a steady rest can be set up to support long work also. One plus to the steady rest is most older lathes have seen alot more work up close to the chuck and are tighter farther down the bed. A big spindle saves time being able to work thru.

[Alan in GA]

" My main problsm with it is the spindle is only .870" how likely is this to really handicap my projects? Obviously no bull barrels longer than 18" any advice or tales of what can and cant be done with a small sljndle lathe"

He really didn't say what his "projects" were, but only mentioned barrels as a limitation. My response was intended to help him sharpen up what his projects would be. If he wants to turn full length rifles barrels he will need a longer lathe and bigger hole in the spindle, but I don't know if that is on his agenda. If he wants to thread and chamber a pre-turned sporter blank, he can probably get enough through the spindle hole that with a steady rest, he can get the job done. He needs to think through what, in the real world, he want to do with the lathe. That will determine the "must have" features of the lathe.

Agreed. Actually I say "use what you got" if no other options. Any lathe is good to learn on. And some of us have enjoyed more than one lathe at a time....does a Unimat count? LOL.
He does say he is looking at a lathe (not yet purchased) with the small spindle hole/short bed. If he or his family or already have one then ok, but if shopping for one I say get what you will be glad you got a year later....

[shawnba67]

Barrels are my main Interest. I passed on the lathe. It had 20" on centers and a .870 spindle. I measured a geavy varmint barrel I had on hand and it hit .870 within a foot of the muzzle. So that would leave me with no way to cut a crown thread for a brake on a fairly normal barrel. Really wanted to buy it but it just wouldnt do what I want to do. If im honna be handicapped fro m go might as well get a combo machine. Lol. Huess ill keep saving. Tgeres a clausing on CL with a 2" spindle but its $500 more than i got so ill keep saving

[country gent]

That old warney swasey turret lathe with a eight inch plus holin the spindle spoiled us. We could load big bar stock and make bushings or parts as needed no issues other than getting that much wieght into the spindle. Wait and get what you want to work with youll be happier in the long run

[ProfGAB101]

1 3/32" through bore will allow full use of 5C collets.

That said - I look more towards spindle speed range, and a good quick change gear box. I have a Grizzly G0602 and the lowest speed is still 150RPM - try threading a 1"-8 at that speed. Then you have to play musical gears installing the exact combo for the pitch you need. - It now is just a 2nd op machine for doing odds and ends when the big lathe is in use.

[KCSO]

Sot Bend = Power cross feed, effortless gear change, rapid speed change, easy and accurate threading. Balance that against a large spindle hole and see what you will use more.

[Frank46]

My jet lathe has a 1 3/8" spindle hole. Agree that bigger is better. By 6" craftsman with 20" bed did allow me with some creative thinking to do a barrel off one of the 22rf small martini actions to be done for a ruger 10/22. Gunsmith had to do the chambering and cutout for the barrel block. Was worth the effort though. Cut the barrel finished length to 16.5" so as to stay legal. Frank

[Char-Gar]

Back in the early 60's, I knew a German gunsmith who set up shop down here in Deep South Texas. He apprenticed in Austria for a number of years, and when the war came along he went with Rommel to Africa and was captured by the British. After the war, he went to Alaska and worked his way down here.

He was a great guy and I spent many hours in his shop watching him work. The only machine tools he had was a drill press and a grinder. I once saw him cut the threads on a barrel with a file! It was amazing what he could do.

I certainly don't have the skills he had, but it made me realize that there were many ways to skin the cat, it a fellow knew what he was doing. The machines and gizmos we think are essential to gun making really are convenience items and not the necessities we often think.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Any Lathe that has a drawbar actuated 5C collet closer will swallow 1 1/16 thru the closer and about 1 3/16 thru the spindle with the closer removed.

Rather than concentrating on the spindle bore size I would be looking for a machine that used 5C collets as you will use those 95% of the time. Chucks tend to runout and there is very little you can do about it unless the chuck has a runout adjustment on it. These are usually expensive 3 jaw chucks like Buck Chucks. 4 jaw chucks get around this problem but are much slower to use for everyday stuff as you have to indicate every thing in that you chuck up.

This subject comes up a lot here and as a Machine Shop owner I have a completely different view than others here. I buy machines based on what types of work I do "MOST."

It's really nice to have a machine big enough to do anything on, however the bigger the machine the more work it is to run and the more space it takes up, and the more power it takes, and the more expensive it is.

If all you're going to do with the machine is turn barrels then you're going to have to have a machine big enough to do that operation.

If you are only going to do a barrel occasionally and most of your work is making small parts like pins and such then a small lathe could be your best bet and hooking up with a shop that has a larger machine that you could use occasionally would be a better way to go.

I would never thread or chamber a barrel. It is to easy to buy the barrel already to go and maybe short chambered which can be finished with a pull thru reamer. Crowning a barrel can be done a bunch of different ways that are just as good as turning them. Brownell's sells the tools to do it.

I personally would be looking for a machine that was farther up the food chain than a Craftsman or South Bend, but I have been running Hardinge Machines for 35 years so I'm ruint on lesser machines.

Just look for a lathe that has a 5C collet closer on it, it will work for you.

Randy

[paul h]

The balance is a machine big enough to do the work you plan to do, and one that fits in your budget. Holding out for the perfect machine you can never afford is just as bad as getting one because of a low price but that is too small for the work you want to do.

[gishooter]

I've got my own well equipped shop including several size lathes and been machining for 6 years including the classes at the local tech school. So I almost know how not to cut my hand off:)

Seriously, you've received some very good advice. Fantasy vs reality! Get a machine that is capable of using 5Ccollets. That and a honest 30-36 inches between centers left when you have tooling mounted (chuck, etc). And get a machine that has a steady rest!

[Whiterabbit]

I have a small 10X21 lathe that I do some personal gunsmithing on, The spindle bore is .787, this bore has been problematic on numerous occasions,

We have the same lathe. I have NEVER been encumbered by the size. I can do everything except turn tapers and turn long bull barrels. Everything else (including full length rifle barrels with tapers under .75" are GTG.


Sometimes reality and fantasy gets confused. The reality question is, what will you really use the lathe for? We can all come up with out ideal fantasy lathe, but if we are never going to use all the potential, our fantasy lathe just cost more money and takes up more room.

I am never going to turn or chamber a rifle barrel. I am never going to try and hog off metal in just a pass or two. I am a very patient worker and can make multiple passes to get the same result on a lighter lathe. I don't need quick change tooling or any other gizmos that make things go faster. I enjoy doing things the old way and am in no hurry.

My 9 X 18 1947 Logan is ideal for my purposes. I consider it the ultimate reloading tool as I can make and modify reloading tooling and so odd jobs on guns.

So, while folks may say you need this or that, my question is what do you really need, based on what you want to do and how you work? You are the only one that can answer that.

This is the magic statement. I've done chamber inserts, pistol barrels, cut, crown, forcing cone facing, cylinder, reloading dies, gauges, threading, I can go on and on and on. And I'm just an amateur!

Only thing I consistently mess up as an amateur is cutting tapers, and the only capability I lose out on is any sort of work on long bull barrels. I have no qualms farming that work out to someone else.

I paid $200 for my lathe, and ~$500 for tooling and counting. Spend your money on your PROJECTS, not your tools!

[Whiterabbit]

Only pic I have handy:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148218&d=1441381807

that's a 20 ga brass shell reloading die (sizer). Made from one solid hunk of 1.25" diameter stainless steel.

I just bought an old takeoff rifle barrel. have lots of projects in mind. The SHANK is less than 18" long so I am not worried about getting it into my lathe.

Measure your rifles. How many do you have where the >.75" portion of the barrel is longer than 18"? one? two?

If you feel like you will be encumbered by a .75" headstock, by all means buy a bigger lathe! I'm not though.

[Whiterabbit]

1 3/32" through bore will allow full use of 5C collets.

That said - I look more towards spindle speed range, and a good quick change gear box. I have a Grizzly G0602 and the lowest speed is still 150RPM - try threading a 1"-8 at that speed. Then you have to play musical gears installing the exact combo for the pitch you need. - It now is just a 2nd op machine for doing odds and ends when the big lathe is in use.

Hi Profgab,

Dumb question. I know your DIALS are in .001" increments, but are your leadscrews metric? Sounds like a dumb question, but it's honest.

[fg-machine]

white rabbit a friend of mine has a small grizzly 10x22 lathe that i made a new lead screw for and new screws for the compound and cross feed .

the carriage lead screw was 12 tpi i believe and the factory screws for the compound and cross feed was a metric pitch , his dials where off a bit because of that .
but not far enough off to make any real difference

[aspangler]

For what it's worth, The lathe is the only machine that can duplicate its' self.

[DougGuy]

Heh Char-Gar we have the same lathe, same year too!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Logan%20Lathe%20Stuff/20150208_115547cropsmall_zps02b33013.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Logan%20Lathe%20Stuff/20150208_115547cropsmall_zps02b33013.jpg.html)

[Whiterabbit]

white rabbit a friend of mine has a small grizzly 10x22 lathe that i made a new lead screw for and new screws for the compound and cross feed .

the carriage lead screw was 12 tpi i believe and the factory screws for the compound and cross feed was a metric pitch , his dials where off a bit because of that .
but not far enough off to make any real difference

Yep, I know. It's my lathe too, but I saved a few bucks by not buying the grizzly name. Not my choice really, it was the product available to me at the time, and I took full advantage. It's manufactured in Shanghai by the company SIEG. This model is the SIEG C6, which is what I have.

I thought to myself "surely the grizzly model would have SAE lead screws?" Guess not. doesn;t make a difference across .005, but it DOES across .5"!

[MaLar]

I don't know where you are located but there is a SB in Nampa Idaho.
If your remotely close, it's the exact same lathe I have. Works well because of the length between centers

http://eastidaho.craigslist.org/tls/5338086963.html

[Clark]

I am on my 4th lathe in 13 years, but still on my first wife after 39 years.
I just could not get along with some of those lathes.
Bull barrels would not fit through the spindle.
I have settled down with a PM1236 and we have DRO together.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Doug: nice lathe! did you do the refurb and repaint? It looks good and probably works well too.

Lots of guys are completely capable of complete disassembly a machine like this, and breathing new life into it. It's not that hard and most anyone that is a competent mechanic can do it.

When you get done you have something that is for all intents and purposes a new machine.

You just have to pick the right machine to refurbish. Logans ,,,Good!

Randy

[shawnba67]

Ok so I bought a Sheldon ts-56p its got as 1 3/8 spindle bore and 36 between the centers and its very heavy! has anyone ever ran a VFD ac drive? its got a 220 3 phase 1 hp motor ive got 110v to feed it its old and i see no need in the speed control portion of a VFD wondering if there is a cheaper option than the NECO FM50 110-to 220 3 phase VFD

[paul h]

If you only have 110 VAC, you're going to need to either replace the motor with a 110 VAC motor, or put in a step up transformer to get 220 VAC and a single phase to three phase converter. Remember whatever your motor current draw is at 220 VAC, will be double at 110 VAC. Is your 110 VAC outlet 15A or 20A?

I think the drive option will be the simplest way to go.

[gishooter]

shawnba67, Sheldon's are very good lathes. Easily the same quality as a Southbend. I've used both brands in that size and prefer the Sheldon. So if your lathe is in good shape it will serve you well. Highly recommend getting a 5C collet closer for it along with a good 4 jaw chuck and steady rest. You can join the Sheldon lathe yahoo group for specific information and advice on your machine.
My recommendation for 3 phase power. Get a good rotary phase converter. Mine is a factory built American rotary brand. I've got a 7.5 HP AR model that will run four 3 phase machines (Bridgeport, LeBlond, Rockwell, Solberga) at the same time with power to spare. Big heavy duty 3 phase motors built to last forever. Push button start and instant 3 phase power. Well built with a warranty and it sips electricity. I prefer phase converters for a shop over individual VFDs on machines. Much more reliable and cheaper in the long run. Easily fixed if you need to swap out a component. Try that with a little Chinese made puzzle box VFD. If a VFD is screwed up just throw it away. A rotary phase converter also provides full torque power to the machine. And no danger of screwing the motor up as you slow down the RPM. IF you will only have one smallish 3 phase machine a VFD will work. But if you plan on adding any more capability (i.e. more machines or a bigger machine) there is a reason why good rotary convertors are common in the machining field. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

[ProfGAB101]

Hi Profgab,

Dumb question. I know your DIALS are in .001" increments, but are your leadscrews metric? Sounds like a dumb question, but it's honest.

The Lead screw is Inch. The cross slide is a 1.5mm pitch with a 60 division dial. This yields about a .002" error on the diameter per full revolution. The compound has a 1mm pitch and a 40 division dial. That gives about a .0006" error per revolution. The nice thing about this is that as the error builds it leaves a bit of excess material for your finish pass. With decent tools and practices you can hold .0003" on this machine once you deal with the absurd compound clamping plate which is the cause of much chatter and other poor performance issues. There are Youtube videos that show how to fix the issue by making a replacement clamp plate.

I would not recommend this machine to anyone who does not have machine experience and can go through the machine fixing all sorts of manufacturing and design defects. When I first check the top surface of my cross slide I had .012" taper in height. The tailstock is a bad joke. There is no cross feed, and all carriage feed is via the threading lead screw. The G0602 has a 1HP 120VAC 1ph motor and speed changes are done by belt/pulley changes. Grizzly also has a variable speed version with a 1HP 3ph motor and a 120VAC 1ph VFD drive. The variable speed version has much less usable torque.

I will be fitting a 3HP 3ph motor and VFD so when running outside the sweet spot I will still have the torque @ speed I need to get the job done right. I will likely convert this lathe to CNC as I also have a G4003G gunsmithing edition lathe.

[M-Tecs]

I would never thread or chamber a barrel. It is to easy to buy the barrel already to go and maybe short chambered which can be finished with a pull thru reamer.
Randy

Randy that surprises me. Options are more limited for the long range match rifle shooters. Most want specific chamber specs and they what the same reamer used on their replacement barrels. I am a toolmaker by trade and I do match rifles on the side. I have threaded and chambered approximately 250 to date. I highly recommend it.

[EDG]

There are many ways to skin a cat. That is true. A good cat skinner can skin different cats more ways if he has good equipment and his cat skinning will be of higher quality. I have worked around some very talented tool makers and I have about 10,000 hours on an engine lathe myself. I have probably ran close to 100 different lathes from a table top machine to 21 foot beds and swings up to 36". You can hold the parts between your toes like they do in Pakistan or you can use decent equipment. No one puts up with crummy or no equipment if he can avoid it.

A good lathe is a necessity for doing barrel work. What comes along in anectdotes does not match the reality of the tools needed to do a good job.
I would never ever own a lathe that does not use 5C collets or a less than 36" bed. I also want an Aloris type tool post and a taper attachment along with a quick change gear box. Why? Well I consider those items necessities because I have worked many hours in a production environment and know how to make the good use of those features on a lathe. I have had my bucket full of shabby worn out old lathes and don't intend to spend more time sneaking up on finished dimensions when I can be using a good machine.


Back in the early 60's, I knew a German gunsmith who set up shop down here in Deep South Texas. He apprenticed in Austria for a number of years, and when the war came along he went with Rommel to Africa and was captured by the British. After the war, he went to Alaska and worked his way down here.

He was a great guy and I spent many hours in his shop watching him work. The only machine tools he had was a drill press and a grinder. I once saw him cut the threads on a barrel with a file! It was amazing what he could do.

I certainly don't have the skills he had, but it made me realize that there were many ways to skin the cat, it a fellow knew what he was doing. The machines and gizmos we think are essential to gun making really are convenience items and not the necessities we often think.

[smokeywolf]

EDG, I understand and to a limited extent agree with you. However, reality does not always allow for a fellow who wants to do some of his (or her) own gunsmithing to allocate the money required to own the lathe that you describe.
I have a very nice low hour Bridgeport that was bought by the shop for which I worked and have every scrap of paper ever generated relating to the machine, from the RFQ and P.O. to the packet of manuals and brochures that came with it. Also have a pretty nice WEBB 17G x 40 engine lathe.
With the exception of metric sizes, I have nearly every size of 5C (including hex and square) and R8 collet made. Also have right angle attachment for the mill, tool post grinder for the lathe, Albrecht chucks to 5/8, drills, reamers, taps and dies in the hundreds, surface plates, height gages, Jo blocks and on and on.

There are others on this forum who have tooling and machinery that make me look deprived. Point is, an awful lot of guys didn't make their living in the machine shop. They didn't discover a need for a lathe and/or mill until they were retired and suddenly had time to delve more deeply into their hobbies.

Had I not accumulated my tooling and machinery over the 30+ years working in and running a machine shop, I could be pretty happy with a smallish Sheldon or Southbend. As spoiled as I am, it is hard to imagine not having a setup for 5C collets, but there's always collet chucks.
You make do with what you can afford. It's not the equipment that makes the machinist. The best machinists are the ones who are resourceful enough to find a work-around for every situation.

During my apprenticeship, one of the old timers watched me struggling on an early 20th century Brown and Sharpe #2 universal mill with badly worn ways, while making a die for the sheet metal shop's power brake. After listening to me curse that old mill for nearly an hour he said, "Kid, anybody can make a good part on nice tight new machine. It takes a real machinist to turn out a good part on an old worn out piece of krapp.

[gattling]

12x36 with a 1 3/8 spindle bore is minimum for all around gunsmithing. One off toolmaking IMHO is not worth it in anything smaller. If you are looking at a lot of bull barrel work you should look for 1 1/2 spindle bore to 1 3/4 for .50 cal.