Cleaning an old Loadmaster

[Jal5]

I found an old LM that needs to be cleaned of grease, particles of power and generic crud. Im thinking of spraying the whole thing down with brake cleaner then relubing. Any other ideas?

[Grasslander]

Are you just wanting to clean it or restore it or something else? If you use brake cleaner you will probably remove a lot of the paint.

[seagiant]

Hi,
DO NOT use brake cleaner!

Get some Simple Green and a soft brush!

Regular degreaser WILL pull some paint!

[Jal5]

I'm glad i asked first. Have a lot of simple green so that can work.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Or denatured alcohol, that works good and won't dissolve the paint, plus it doesn't leave a nasty aftersmell like the green vomit.

[sparky45]

I use 91% Alcohol when doing cleaning. BTW, brake cleaner WILL remove the paint, damhikt.

[Jal5]

That alcohol worked pretty good. Need to clean down inside the ram then mount it to the bench

[flashhole]

No pics!!!!!!

[Jal5]

Will do when it's finished!

[seagiant]

Or denatured alcohol, that works good and won't dissolve the paint, plus it doesn't leave a nasty aftersmell like the green vomit.


Hi,
Green vomit?

In Georgia, we use Simple Green for after shave!

Ok, ok, if we had a real hot date we would use PB Blaster!

[1bluehorse]

Pull the shell plate (7/16th bolt on bottom of ram) remove the 4 bolts (two per side, watch for the wave washers) and drop the ram out. Clean all that old oil and grease of those parts as well. Take some wet "n" dry sandpaper and "clean up" the inside of the press where the ram runs. Check for any burrs or rough spots. Lightly oil and put back together. If the press has the grease zerks give them a couple shots AFTER you get it back together. All that takes about 30 minutes. Oh yeah, clean the inside of the ram while it's out of the press, much easier. Don't disassemble the inside of the ram (rod, door, and a couple other small pieces) PITA to get it back correctly. Not hard, just not worth it. After you get it back together and running (or not [smilie=2:) or are having any problems with it, give us a shout we can probably help with that.

[Jal5]

Bluehorse this is harder to get indexing than i thought. My friend got it close but it indexes inconsistently. The index rod doesn't pop out all the time or it comes out part way only. All suggestions are welcome! I have looked at all the videos several times too. Using the old type shell holder for 45 ACP, shell loader with collator, no priming on press.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Bluehorse this is harder to get indexing than i thought. My friend got it close but it indexes inconsistently. The index rod doesn't pop out all the time or it comes out part way only. All suggestions are welcome! I have looked at all the videos several times too. Using the old type shell holder for 45 ACP, shell loader with collator, no priming on press.

You need to adjust the flapper on the advance bar in or out a turn or two until there is just a little bit of slack. You may also need to do some polishing, tuning and cleaning up of burrs. Look at this video, guy knows what he's doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Dqpfrt5fI

[Gillie Dog]

The index rod doesn't pop out all the time or it comes out part way only. All suggestions are welcome!

This most commonly is the carriage needs to rotate clockwise a smidge so the flipper just clears the frame by the smallest amount or just touches when going up. That will make the tab on the top of the frame rotate the flipper enough so the flipper shoe will contact the frame on the way down and pull it out all the way. Be careful to not unscrew the flipper so far out it jams the shell plate and will not pull out. It needs a little wiggle, little is the key here, in the plate when indexed, you will find one or more stations tight and the others the shell plate wiggles a small amount. Nature of the beast.

GD

[zomby woof]

The index rod doesn't pop out all the time or it comes out part way only. Timing is off.

[Jal5]

I did the polishing and deburring in that video. And i adjusted the index rod flipper in and out. I got the carrier indexed too. It is indexing better but not consistently. Not sure what else to try.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

You may need to adjust the carrier first, then the indexing. If you get to that point and it still won't index, you have something that is defective, worn or damaged, always hard to say on a used press. Go through those processes, then post a couple pics of the parts and possibly a video.

[Jal5]

Ok will try that tomorrow. It feels like the carrier is one notch off the flipper being tight on the frame now. But there us still a tiny bit of give on the carrier if i put any counter clockwise pressure on it. Hope this makes sense.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Ok will try that tomorrow. It feels like the carrier is one notch off the flipper being tight on the frame now. But there us still a tiny bit of give on the carrier if i put any counter clockwise pressure on it. Hope this makes sense.

Take a close look at the underside of the carrier for wear/tear. If none, then try adjusting it according to Lee's instructions, except just snug it up good. Lee calls for a specified torque, but mine (which was/is new) tightened right up with me just getting it good and snug.

Once you're satisfied the carrier is where it's supposed to be and locked in, then adjust the timing advance rod again. If that doesn't fix it,either your carrier or your timing advance rod is likely worn out or damaged. I'm guessing.

[Jal5]

Thx I got it running after I indexed it again snug like you said and went back to the index flipper and changed that setting. I put it all together and made my first round today 155202

[flashhole]

Sweet. Glad you got it back in service.

[Jal5]

It's still a work in progress. Now out of 8 cases i ran thru it 4 are ok COL 4 are too short 1.274 vs 1.266 for 45 acp. Not sure what is happening.

[flashhole]

Did you measure the length of the cases prior to running them through the press/dies so as to establish a reference?

[Jal5]

No I never did that before for pistol brass

[flashhole]

It's highly unlikely anything happened to the brass. It was probably that length before you sized them.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

If you go to Mike's Reloading Bench, he shows a mod to the turrets that will help a great deal in bringing the COAL to better than acceptable variation. He also does the mods and sells a very high quality turret that also addresses the issue. Here's a link:

www.mikesreloadingbench.com

[will52100]

Glad you got it back up and running. If you've got the shell plate snug and wobble free, and the die plate tight, and dies tight, I'd investigate the brass before running it through first. I've got two LM's and love them, but there for volume pistol ammo, I don't load match grade anything on them. At pistol range with combat sights I'm the largest effect on accuracy, not the ammo. Also if I'm using alox tumble lubed bullets I have to continuously adjust the seating depth as alox builds up in the seating die until I take it out and scrape the crud out. As long as the COAL is within safe parameters I'm good with it. I don't load near max loads anyway to where a few thou one way or the other would be dangerous anyway. The Alox build up is one reason I've started using a star sizer, but have a lot of alox lubed bullets that I see no reason to melt down, and have started playing with 45-45-10 and it seems to leave a lot less build up. For rifle I like my turret press, a little slower, but way more precise.

Check and make sure everything is snug, with minimal movement, if your looking for really accurate COAL, check magic mike's turrets and mods out. Personally I don't think a few thou one way or the other is going to make a difference for pistol ammo, unless your maybe doing long range scope work.

[Jal5]

These are plated bullets not lead lubed with alox. I think it has something to do with how i setup the dies.

[will52100]

Are you using Lee dies? If so, make sure the lock ring is snug and no movement on the dies or turret. Your talking .008 movement, that's about 1/120", in other words not much. That much variance could be the bullets themselves, or rather where your measuring on the bullet nose, or it could be imperfections on the bullet base. If your using a dial caliper they don't register much better than that, if your using micrometer then that's a different story. Just for the heck of it, I measured two sheets of typing paper and they came out at .007, your basically worrying over the thickness of two sheets of typing paper. Also, are you using digital caliper? I've seen them get out of whack pretty easy, even the high dollar ones, most dial indicators also show more error the further out you go. I just miked my cast 45 acp and randomly checking one box found that much variance, though most were .004 or less. This is my cast hollow point load that is a tack driver out of my Kimber. Unless your shooting max loads, or from a bench rest, your splitting hairs as far as pistol ammo goes. I also checked some Winchester white box 45 acp, and found them to be .010 variance on a few, though most were .005-6. Granted WCF white trash isn't match grade ammo, but it is factory loads, and the only factory loads I have for pistol. I checked some 1952 Lake City 30-06 I have for my Garand, the majority of them were within .003, but a couple I checked were .007 off, and this is very accurate ammo, more accurate than I can shoot with iron sights.

One thing to remember with the LM, or most other progressive presses, if you run one round through at a time, or load the shell plate, that will cause a difference. Since the shell plate has to move, one round will cock it slightly, where as all the rounds in will even out the pressure. That's without magic mike's stops on the turret.

[Jal5]

Using Lee dies. Here is how I set it up. Could be the turret is loaded to one side causing this? Also I setup the seater depth using only one case. Thinking like I am still using a single loading press! I will check those calipers too- cheap digital one. Last night i ran a bunch more and the variation was greater biggest being 1.34 if i remember right. This after resetting the dies again. I'm taking this learning process slowly to get used to this press. In no real hurry. 155318

[Jal5]

Should probably rename the thread: resurrecting an old loadmaster[emoji3]

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Jal5,

Without adding a Magic Mike's turret or modifying one of your own per the instructions on his web page, you're approaching the limits of the progressive design. About the only thing you can do at this point without doing that is to make sure your dies are set up in such a way as to minimize shell plate tilt. Even then, the turret and the shell plate will still tilt some with the first and last cartridges made, as there are not cases in every station during the process to help with the leveling.

This shell plate tilt is true of all progressives to a point, that is why Wheeler Engineering makes toolheads for Dillon and RCBS progressives that prevent the toolhead from tilting, to minimize the effect. Unfortunately, they did not quite go far enough and put in set screws to insure the shell plate is pressed down fully and evenly on all sides as well.

You can do some further tuning with adjusting your dies an possibly improve the situation a bit, but you are not going to reach "nirvana" without either modifying your turrets per Magic Mike, then adding his turret stabilizer (or copying it) or ordering some of his turrets and turret stabilizer. With those two items installed, you're going to reduce the COAL variation to a number that's not worth doing anything about for any sort of shooting competition.

But, unless you're OCD like me or you're shooting longer range competition, with your dies tweaked, you've gone about as far as your progressive (or any progressive, for that matter) can go. That is why the Hornady LnL is better than the Dillon or RCBS on COAL variation, they don't have a toolhead, so that eliminates one of the two causes of COAL variation in a progressive - turret/die plate/toolhead movement and shell plate tilt. Address those two issues with any brand of progressive and you'll then be matching a single stage for cartridge consistency.

But how much accuracy you require is something you'll need to figure out.

[Jal5]

Thx Dave for that explanation. I will tweak the setup more and see what i end up with. This is plinking ammo not competition so I won't be too OCD.

[will52100]

I'd put a resize die in station one, that should get you more consistent. Also, make sure the shell plate is snug, not tight, but not wobbly either, with the index rod out it should move smoothly and freely. Looking at how your dies are set up, I'm thinking your getting a lot of tilt to the shell plate. Are you priming on the press? If so, with out a size die in station 1, that just makes it worse because the primer arm is trying to lift the case up while seating the primer, the other dies are trying to shove the case down. A size die in station 1 should even things out. If your planing on leaving the dies set up like that, then it'd be a good idea to modify the turret like magic mike's with the set screw stops, or get his custom turret. If you don't want to prime on the press for some reason, just take the de capper pin out of a size die and use it.

But for anything other than long ranged bench rest scoped shooting, I would not worry about .008 difference. That's as good or better than a lot of factory ammo gets. If you want .002 or less variance, stick with a single stage, preferably something like the Forester coaxial press. I say .002 or less, because several of the round I checked would read plus or minus .001 depending on just how I held it in the calipers.

[Jal5]

I'm not priming on the press now. These cases were already sized decapped and primed separately off this press. I may do all the functions on this press later on. So for now to stabilize things i may setup the dies as 1-3-5 what do you think?
Range was between 1.266 to 1.324 among 12 rounds a 0.058 spread.

[will52100]

.058 is a bit much, probably not dangerous, provided your not pushing max loads, but that would drive me nuts. I'd set a sizing die sans de capping rod in station 1, powder through and hopper on station 3, and seating die on ether station 4 or 5. For 45 acp I've got a seating die at station 4, and a Lee FCD on station 5. One thing that bothers me about your readings is that even with the shell plate cocked over, it should be more consistent than that. The first and last couple could be way off, but once all three dies are loaded the pressure on the shell plate should be about the same.

[Jal5]

I will try to run some that way and see what happens. I'm seating and crimping separately so seater can be in 4 and taper crimp in 5. So i will use 1345. Should balance better.

[will52100]

Let us know how it goes, I also try and set up the sizing die in station 1 to where it just touches the shell plate. Basically I run the ram all the way up and finger tighten the size die till I feel it touch the shell plate, then back off a 1/4 turn and tighten the lock ring without moving the die. One thing you can do, is run 10 to 15 through, and measure and write down each one's COAL in what order it came through. I'd be interested in seeing if the first and last couple of rounds were the ones with the huge variance, and the middle ones were somewhat closer length wise.

Is there any movement in the turret? Watch it close while operating with a case or two and see if it moves at all, should be zero movement. Some people has had issues with the bead chain loosening the locking bolt. Also, what is the nose profile on the bullets your using? I've seen some plated bullets where no two had the exact same nose shape, one a little more or less rounded could be throwing you off a good bit. The seating die is shaped to fit most profiles, and so isn't perfect for any one profile. I've never bothered to change plugs or make a custom one, but when I change bullet shapes the seating depth changes. Don't really think that's the case here, just trying to eliminate variables.

If it is your turret, or shell plate that's moving, worst case is to get a new turret from magic mike's that has the adjustable stops on it. That would make the shell plate come to the same position wether there was one case, 5 cases or none in the shell plate. Kinda expensive, but then not really for a solid billet aluminum piece.

[Jal5]

No movement in the turret. I reset the dies: removed decapper pin but put the sizing die in 1 touching shell plate, 2 empty, 3 POWDER THRU EXPANDER touching shell plate, seater at 4, taper crimp at 5. Set seater using dummy round at 1.270 ran 5 cases all Federal- 1.284, 1.283, 1.284, 1.282,1.282
Adjusted seater to 1.274 put cases in manually like the other trial and concentrated on a smooth pull of the handle: 1.274 1.276 1.274 1.276 1.274
If I can keep it like this I can live with that. Now I'm not sure if it's just me or what.

The case slider is giving me fits too. Most of the time it doesn't feed fully into the shell plate no matter how I adjust the bottom screw then it starts working correctly by itself. This press is temperamental but I am stubbornly working it out. Thx for your help.

[will52100]

Glad you got it working, .002 is nothing. On the case feeder, I found out you don't want the rod lubed, it's got a grey teflon coating on it and it needs some friction. Get it too slick and it causes timing issues. Gave me fits to start with, or I should say after lubing everything the first time. First set up out of the box I basically ran as set up from Lee for 45 acp. Every thing worked good, the case feeder worked great. Then I lubed everything and the case feeder gave me fits. Wiped the lube off the rod with a paper towel and it went back to working fine.

[Jal5]

Yeah I lubed that rod now think it's a mistake. There is a rough marked up part on the ramp near to the shell plate. I think I will clean that up too just by polishing a little. Will post results.

[Jal5]

Update. I polished the ramp and lubed underneath with a dry spray lube. Ran a little better not great. Tried to adjust the feed bracket to get cases into the shellplate fiund out that the threads in the frame are a little buggered up. Ordered a replacement longer size bracket and a new rod since old one had a bend in it. One thing at a time.

[flashhole]

Pics, we need pics.

[Jal5]

I will do more pics later.
Ran out of bullets and brass!156257

[will52100]

Keep at it, you'll get there. One thing I need to do, and just haven't bothered yet, is shape the case feeder like magic mike's, every once in a while while loading 38 long colt one will fall out onto the bench. Not a big deal, and just haven't taken the time to correct yet.

[Jal5]

Thx. I am getting to know this press really well by this point.

[Jal5]

Still haven't gotten the case feeder parts I ordered before Christmas. But I ran 70 rounds of 9mm feeding cases manually. Unique ran real well with Autodisk measure and my Lee boolits 358125RF WORKED WELL too. Rejected 8 too long probably my bad. Just doing a steady pace. I am going to really like this LM once I get all the parts working. Used mm turret plate otherwise stock parts.

[seaboltm]

I like my LM. I loaded 1000 30 carbine yesterday, took about 4 hours with stops for refilling this and that. I had 50 rejects, all due to priming errors. Still, that is 95% success, not bad. The priming system is the week link, and that assumes your LM has the upgraded priming parts from Lee, which will set you back about $15 each for large and small primers. I don't use the LM priming system unless I am doing several hundred. Anything less than that and I hand prime with an RCBS unit. I clean my LM with carb cleaner, and it has never removed the paint. Of course that's not the same thing as brake cleaner.

[will52100]

How's the 30 carbine sitting in the shell plate? 50 seems a bit excessive. I don't load for it, so I don't know, but out of the last 1000 or so I loaded I had maybe 1 sideways primer. I think part of the reason I have had good luck with the priming system is that bench I've got it mounted to. The bench weights about 300 pounds, legs are 2 2/4" screwed together and the top is 2/6" with a 5/8" birch plywood top, and the press is screwed down with leg bolts, very solid and no wiggle or shake going on. From what I've seen and heard, you don't want any vibration on the press, it can jar primers out of alignment or make them tip sideways. I know with the pro-1000 I had a lot more issues with priming on my old wobbly bench that I thought was solid, when I moved it to the new heavy bench the issues magically disappeared. Only other thing I can think of is maybe you have the old primer system? So far with both LM's, one set up as small pistol and the other large primer, little to no issue provided I don't run out of primers.

[seaboltm]

The 30 carbine does not sit in the shellplate well at all. The case is tall with no rim and tends to tilt outwards. No big deal on most dies except for the powder drop die, which in most cases required a finger on it to keep the case aligned on the way up. That slowed me down. I probably only had maybe 10 sideways or upside down primers. The other 40 issues were caused by cases that had been berdan primed or had crimped primer pockets. On both of those the primer would not seat fully (of course) and that became an issue. I use the Lee Universal decapper to process cases. It is strong enough that in most instances it will punch a hole through the bottom of a berdan case and eject the primer. That does not, of course, mean that a boxer primer is going to go back in. I was loading a large bag of mixed brass. Some commercial, some USGI, some foreign. Some of the USGI from the 50's had crimped primers. I had enough cases that I had no intention of removing crimps from 40 or so cases. I have the new priming system. My bench is fairly solid, but not as solid as yours. I move too much to have such a heavy setup.

[Jal5]

Shot a couple of mags to try out those reloads and they were fine. Too cold and damp and windy to do any more than that today. Parts came in the mail today so after our NYears trip I will set that up. New bracket for slider bar, sm. case feeder setup and new slider bar. This new one is coated with a grey Teflon looking substance. I may do a homemade version of the shake break too since there is a little more movement on the up stroke than I would like. I'm lubing the brass just a little too makes them go thru the process a little easier.

[will52100]

I've found even with carbide dies a spray of one shot makes them run a lot smoother. Personally that's all I use one shot for, never had good luck with it for rifle resizing. I like the idea of the shake brake, just don't really need it with the bench I've got.

Anyway, that's makes a bit more sense to me seaboltm, I could live with the 10 failures out of a 1000. I don't load 30-06 on the LM, but I do have a bunch of USGI Lake City surplus and as I shoot it up I'm processing the brass. I broke my hand decapper on it and started using a universal decapper. They've all got the crimped in primer. Anyway, RCBS makes a neat little hand trimmer that cuts a chamfer and takes the crimp out. A buddy of mine has a primer pocket swedge and swears by it. If it was only 10% of the cases with crimped primers I wouldn't worry about it, but every blasted one has it, other than that it's too good a brass to toss and I've got a bunch of it. Wish I'd bought more when I had the chance. It's surprising to me that the universal decapper is punching through the Berdan primed cases, that's one tough rod! You know with a little work you could probably convert into boxer prime, though it wouldn't be worth it unless it's some rare odd ball and expensive brass. Just thinking, if the 30 carbine case is tilting in the shell plate that might have something to do with a few of the tipped primers, don't know what you could do to fix it though.

[Jal5]

Another chapter in refurbishing the LM. I ran it including the priming today. Only ran 30 cases 9mm and had 4 with crushed primers 2 were probably my fault and two had bad brass causing a hangup at station 3. Primers seemed to be moving fine down the chute.
Brass was deprimed on the single stage press, makes sense to me to keep dirt out of the progressive press. I think i will setup a shake brake to take the movement completely out of the process.

[will52100]

Probably not a bad idea on the shake brake. Keep at it, it's coming together.

[jmorris]

Thx. I am getting to know this press really well by this point.

You will know it inside and out by the time you get it running 100%.

[Jal5]

[emoji3]

[Jal5]

I setup my own version of the shake brake using parts laying around the garage. That takes almost all the extra movement out of this press. This is getting good! The primer assembly is working ok. We will see how it really works when i run a big batch.

[LAKEMASTER]

I use marvel mystery oil on everything and it's slick as butter. Cleaned the 0 frame press I got with it and once a little oil got on the grime it wiped off the next day...