Bulletts per Pound

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

How may .50 cal round balls can you get from a pound of pure Lead?

OK: Let me get a little More specfic.
The Bullet is .50 Cal that equals roughly to 1/2Half on an Inch and is in the shape of a Sphere.
It is Round. like a Ball

AH!

Round Ball!

http://www.smsguns.com/images/Muzzle%20Loaders/Thompson%20Center%20Lead%


So if there are 7K grains in a # then I should get about 40 qty of 175Grain Round Balls.

That was like Pulling Teeth!

[Scrounger]

7000 grains in a pound. Weigh the ball and divide.

[fishhawk]

41-42

[Scrounger]

I just took it as another wannabee, wanting someone to just give them the answers without them having to figure out the whys, whats, and hows. I personally don't like that, I think people, for their own safety if nothing else, should educate themselves on reloading before they even think about casting. They need to get some idea on the burning speeds of the various powders, how to predict similarity of loading data based on relative burning speeds, the relationship of bullet weight on quantity of powder, the characteristics of the various types of powders (ball, extruded, flake, etc), why you should never use powders like WC 820 in light loads or Bullseye in heavy .44 Magnum loads (I guess we;re talking pressure curves here), and many other things which don't come to mind right now. They really need to build the foundation before putting the walls and roof on.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

41 to 42 balls would be fine.

That would get me through a day of shooting.

The wieght of the round balls vary depening on the ammount of spru that is left on them. How much effetct does the off balance of the spru have on the flight of the ball?


I ususlly load 50 grains to 75 grains of FF depending on the distance 50 to 100 yards.

I have been loading with the spru on top but maybe the spru should be on the bottom as that is were the balance would shift due to center of mass.


A ball with antimony will expand more than lead when it is removed from the mold and cooled in water, which is what I have been doing. Just drop them into a 5 gal bucket of water to cool them. Would it be better to drop into oil? or is it a moot point

[bfox]

Seems Kind of Funny , a sticky at the top of the page says come on in lurkers this is a place to ask questions and Learn .

Bill

[Ricochet]

Newenglandcharters, I've always tried to center the sprue the best I could, but never did any sort of experimentation to determine how much affect it had on accuracy if they weren't so oriented.

Ball weight will vary if your lead's not pure, too. If it's not, it'll probably still shoot pretty well, but since it gets harder you can't get away with as tight a ball & patch combination as with soft pure lead.

[Scrounger]

Seems Kind of Funny , a sticky at the top of the page says come on in lurkers this is a place to ask questions and Learn .

Bill

This is High School, Bfox, you need to go through grammar school first.

Let me edit that. That is just my opinion, I'm sure there are a lot of people here who would get off on taking a novice and teaching him everything he knows. But some of us are grouchy old men who would rather deal with our own kind rather than tolerate the youngsters. It goes without saying that we're not the ones who put up that sign. It also seems to me that the people who want that sign themselves put in darn little time dealing with those the sign brings in. And one more reason, a much more important reason, is that you'd have to be a damn fool to get your education here or anywhere else on the Internet. Without background knowledge to verify, you have no idea whether the information you get here is correct or someone's idea of a sick joke to blow-up your rifle and your eyes. You have no idea who I am or who anyone else here is, I could be Charles Manson having my fun with Society from my jail cell at Corcoran State Prison. So my attitude serves my peace of mind and really is in the best interest of the wannabees. Let them find a local reloader they can trust and actually watch, and get their data out of books from reputable companies who have reputations and liabilities to protect. When they are comfortable with that, then they can take the next step.

[Leftoverdj]

This is High School, Bfox, you need to go through grammar school first.

It's also supposed to be a place of courtesy.

[montana_charlie]

(I deleted my earlier post, as it was premised on a reading mistake that I had made.)


I just took it as another wannabee, wanting someone to just give them the answers without them having to figure out the whys, whats, and hows.

I think people, for their own safety if nothing else, should educate themselves on reloading before they even think about casting.
I am in full agreement with you, Scrounger, however...

This author appears to be a muzzle loader...but not a 'reloader'.
If true, he has little need to be aware of the many critically important things you mentioned.

Another observation relates to his second question, which was posted with no acknowledgement of your mathematical 'advice', or the actual mathematical 'help' provided by fishhawk.

Perhaps there are some other conventions (social ones) that he is equally unaware of.
CM

[fishhawk]

look you get 41-42 RB depending on the sprue and weather the ball is .490 or .489 or what ever the variable is. his question was answerd. what you are argueing about now do it by PM, little petty BS again.......

[Scrounger]

It's also supposed to be a place of courtesy.

Better check your definition of courtesy. In any event, it comes after truth.

[carpetman]

What was rude about Scroungers response of 7,000 grains to the pound--weigh the ball and divide. That is clear,concise,correct and simple. Was a dissertation needed? I think not. I think it is also obvious,because I can figure it out,that if the weight of the balls vary then the number per pound would vary. I certainly think the question made it obvious the person asking didn't know there are 7,000 grains per pound and certainly didn't know all the technical and scientific factors that were involved to come up with that figure of 7,000. Based on the size of a typical grain of wheat, 7,000 was the accepted number in a pound,that's how it came about.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

I could be Charles Manson having my fun with Society from my jail cell at Corcoran State Prison. So my attitude serves my peace of mind and really is in the best interest of the wannabees. .



Wow! :kidding:




Back to the subject

Is .490 or .489 better?

[wiljen]

.489, .490 or even .495 is going to be something the rifle tells you. You want a ball that fits tightly but doesn't require a hydraulic ram to force down the barrel. The better the fit, the better they shoot.

[Scrounger]

Miffed, I will now trudge back into my ivory tower and cast dispersions on the unwashed no more...

[runfiverun]

hey,
maybe scrounger is like me and has no clue what a .50 cal ball
weighs.
i would have said 7000 grains in a pound also.
asking for help is one thing but some info is also required.

and there is no way charles manson has all that reloading stuff in his garage!!!!!!

[Beaverhunter2]

NewEnglandCharters,
(Assuming you haven't been chased off yet.) I always put my sprue on top for three reasons:

1. That's the way I was taught.

2. With the sprue on top, I can be sure as the ball gets started into the barrel that it's square with the direction of flight.

3. By using a flat-tipped ramrod I can keep it square as I ram the ball down the barrel.

By trying to go sprue-down (when I was younger and questioned everything the older guys told me), I found my groups opened up. Not a ton- but a noticeable amount.. If you can't see it- how can you be sure it's centered and stays that way. I'm fairly comfortable that the sprue being off center had something to do with it. It makes sense to me because if the sprue is more to one side, the ball would be unbalanced as it spun it's way down range.

I'm a new guy here, too. Lots of good info- and good folks!

John

[StrawHat]

A couple of licks with a file and the sprue nub is gone and no longer needs to be worried over.

I have always had good luck with pure lead and have never tried to alloy it for my muzzleloaders.

wiljen has it right about trying the different calibers and let the firearm tell you what it needs.

The different loads for different distances... How's that working for you? I could never remember what was in the rifle so just went with one load and learned the trajectory for it and adjusted for the range by moving the sights or holding off.

And welcome to the forum.

Just so you know, these questions might be better posted in the "Front Stuffers" area.

[badgeredd]

Better check your definition of courtesy. In any event, it comes after truth.

Funny that we all don't know all. There are some really helpful people on here, actually most are. Granted a little bit of education would help but how does one get it if they get sacasm instead of answers?

[Razor]

Granted a little bit of education would help but how does one get it if they get sacasm instead of answers?

Well put badgeredd..

Razor
:castmine:

[carpetman]

My response might appear to the untrained as if I didnt consider that a blackpowder type might not have a scale. No problem. Make a balance and put ball on one end and start adding grains of wheat to other end until it balances. Then you know how many grains your ball weighs and can then divide into the 7000 and know how many per pound. Don't know why old rude sarcastic Scrounger didn't explain that.

[mooman76]

Newenglandcharter. You don't want to be dropping you balls in water. If you were using pure lead it wouldn't matter too much because pure lead doen't water harden but you said you had antimony in it and it will make the lead harder. You want soft in a ML.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

No I dont have a Scale.

Bllack Powder is measured by volume wich must change the wieght when going from FF to the Finer FFF grains.

The FFF shoots hoter and cleaner. I like it but it is hard to find. Only one supplier has it that I know of in his barn and that is a couple hour drive. I plan on picking up a few pounds next time Im up that way.

I measure with a incrementale volume measure from Thompson Center. it works well but is slow. I would like to make up some rolled paper cartriges like they used in the War of Northern Aggression to have the powder and ball together and ready to go. What type of paper woould be best for this? I believe that the paper was used as a patch. Is it coated with anything to lube it?


Also using this flask that gives about 25 grains of powder in the nossle. Its quick and fairly accurate. I would like to wiegh it to find out exactly. Anyone have one and a Scale? Have you don this already?

http://www.muzzleloader.com/shooting/TCA7224.jpg

[GrizzLeeBear]

Newenglandcharters, a safety tip. Do NOT load directy from your powder flask! Always pour into a separate measure and then pour that down the barrel. If there is a spark smoldering in the barrel when you pour your powder down the barrel you will only get singed a bit. If you are pouring directly from the spout on your flask, you are holding onto a handgrenade!

+1 on what Mooman said. I tried some RB cast from WW. They are bigger and harder. Made loading them with tight patch a pain, literally, from pounding on the short starter. Plus they didn't shoot worth a damn. Stay with the pure (soft) lead. I used to shoot a lot of ML competition, rendezvous, etc. I never shot with anyone that loaded the sprue down. Use a standard cupped end short starter and ramrod. By the time you start and seat the ball, the sprue will be gone by being "swaged" round by the starter and rod tips.
Also, it seems backward, but as many here will tell you, the base of the boolit is the "rudder", much more than nose is the steering wheel. A ball with slight deformities on the nose will shoot accurately, but one with a sprue on the base will not because it would have to be loaded perfecly centered every time. Which is impossible to do because you can't see it.

[Razor]

NEC..
I use cigarette papers... TOP or ZIG-ZAG..
Works great.

Razor

[Taylor]

Newenglandcharter,I agree with Beaverhunter2 on the sprue,that was the way I was taught.I have spent about a year working and playing with a rifle that is not happy,The guys here have been an asset to me. I think that I am about got it worked out,and I think I can help some,but not now.We will both have to wait for my stuff to get done. I will post the results,and it is in line with some of your questions.Will my rifle be happy to day? I sure hope so. Hang on brother,if not for these fine folks I would have given up reloading and casting at the start. As I have no teacher,they have been my guidance and with tolerance.

[JIMinPHX]

Off the top of my head -

The volume of a sphere is 4/3 x Pi x R x R x R where R = radius of the sphere. That’s 4/3 Pi R cubed, but I don’t know how to write the 3 as a superscript in internet code.

4/3 x 3.141592 x .25 x .25 x .25 = .06545 ci

16.387 cc = 1 ci

.06545 x 16.387 = 1.0725 cc

Density of lead (solid) = 11.34 g/cc at room temperature

Density of lead (liquid) = 10.66g/cc at the melting point (fyi)

1.0725 cc x 11.34 = 12.162 g = .012162 Kg

2.2046 Lbs = 1Kg

.012162 x 2.2046 = .0268 Lbs

1/.0268 = 37.3 1/2" diameter balls per pound

16 oz = 1Lb
.0268 x 16 = .429 oz
7000 grains = 1 Lb
.0268 x 7000 = 187.6 gr

That looks to me like 37 full half inch balls & a little left over from a pound of pure lead. Pure lead is what most black powder guys use. If you add in some tin or antimony, the density & the weight both go down a little.

If you’re lazy & don’t like doing math, a handy lead calculator can be found here -
http://www.allmeasures.com/Formulae/static/formulae/density/20.htm

You can water drop pure lead with no real change in hardness (dead soft). If you have a little antimony or tin in the mix, then the alloy will be harder than pure lead & if you water drop it when hot, it will become a lot harder. There is no advantage to oil dropping in place of water dropping that I know of. Your lead will not rust. Everyone that I have ever talked to has always said to stay with dead soft pure lead (or close to it) for use in muzzleloaders. I have never tried a harder mix for that purpose.

I always file my sprue down to match the radius if I am doing any serious target work with black powder & a ball. Otherwise, I load sprue up.

The actual best size ball to use will depend on the actual dimensions of your barrel & what thickness patch (if any) you decide to use. You want a snug fit, but you don’t want something that you can’t start. I know a few guys that start with thick patches for their early shots, then switch to thinner ticking for patching their later shots after the barrel begins to foul.

[JIMinPHX]

War of Northern Aggression

This is something that I normally hear from guys in South Carolina, not New England.


http://www.muzzleloader.com/shooting/TCA7224.jpg

These flasks are quick & handy for use when loading a cold barrel the first time at the start of a day. I also use them for cap & ball revolvers that have been sitting cold for a while. As has already been said, don't pour straight from a flask into a freshly shot barrel. That's in the same family of errors as having your face over the muzzle when you load up.

Also, as was already said, black powder is measured by volume, not actual weight. Don’t use a scale to weight a charge of black powder (or black powder substitute like Pyrodex or 777). Use a graduated volumetric black powder measure. They only cost a few dollars & they are commonly available.

[rhead]

That’s 4/3 Pi R cubed, but I don’t know how to write the 3 as a superscript in internet code.
X cubed is written as X^3. at least in excel or lotus. some other softwares require (log X)*3. There may be some other conventions.
I just noticed that this new keyboard doesn"t even have a pi symbol on it. Anybody know where they hid it? or will I have to define a function key?

[JIMinPHX]

I inserted a Pi symbol out of MS-Word & tried using that in my post. It showed up as a square in the browser. Hypertext protocol is not one of my strong suits.

[StrawHat]

Off the top of my head -

The volume of a sphere is 4/3 x Pi x R x R x R where R = radius of the sphere. That’s 4/3 Pi R cubed, but I don’t know how to write the 3 as a superscript in internet code.

4/3 x 3.141592 x .25 x .25 x .25 = .06545 ci

16.387 cc = 1 ci

.06545 x 16.387 = 1.0725 cc

Density of lead (solid) = 11.34 g/cc at room temperature

Density of lead (liquid) = 10.66g/cc at the melting point (fyi)

1.0725 cc x 11.34 = 12.162 g = .012162 Kg

2.2046 Lbs = 1Kg

.012162 x 2.2046 = .0268 Lbs

1/.0268 = 37.3 1/2" diameter balls per pound

16 oz = 1Lb
.0268 x 16 = .429 oz
7000 grains = 1 Lb
.0268 x 7000 = 187.6 gr

That looks to me like 37 full half inch balls & a little left over from a pound of pure lead. Pure lead is what most black powder guys use. If you add in some tin or antimony, the density & the weight both go down a little.



Off the top of my head !!!!!!!!!!!-

Even when I was pretending to be an engineer full time I don't think I knew the density of lead as a liquid or as a solid.

I did know how to find the volume of a sphere.

Tonight I will raise a glass of cold barley soup in the direction of Phoenix.:drinks:

[Scrounger]

Everything you need to know about making funny letters and symbols: http://www.yourhtmlsource.com/text/specialcharacters.html

[rhead]

Scrounger: Thanks!!

[JIMinPHX]

Off the top of my head !!!!!!!!!!!-

Even when I was pretending to be an engineer full time I don't think I knew the density of lead as a liquid or as a solid.

I did know how to find the volume of a sphere.

Tonight I will raise a glass of cold barley soup in the direction of Phoenix.:drinks:

I had just looked up the density of lead recently after reading the 18th century Militia Act as background research in the Heller case. The Militia act required people to equip themselves with guns that were suitable to take a ball the eighteenth part of a pound. Being a geeky engineer myself, I set about figuring out what caliber a 1/18 pound lead ball would be. That’s why that stuff was still fresh in my mind. I now understand why there are so many .65 cal muskets on the antique market. They are what everybody needed to have, so they must have been plentiful back then.

I too will raise a glass of finely prepared barley based beverage in your direction tonight…But it ain’t gunna be soup!:drinks:

[JIMinPHX]

Everything you need to know about making funny letters and symbols: http://www.yourhtmlsource.com/text/specialcharacters.html

Thanks Scrounger, I just tried that out. The name delineator did not work, but the number delineator did.


π = doesn’t work


& # 9 6 0 ; (less the spaces) = π

Actually, the failure of "& p i ; (less spaces)" to work may be a deficiency of my browser & not the posting board. Let me know if anybody else sees two Pi symbols above.