Grizzly tough bullet -.45-70?

[CourtenayBoy]

I want to get a mould and cast a good bullet for hunting in Grizzly country. I am looking for something between 400-500 grains that I can load for my .45-70 Marlin 1895 SBL. I want something with a wide meplat that can be driven fast enough to crush said Grizzlies. As I'm new to casting and the .45-70, what do you recommend for a mould, and do I still need to size and gas check etc. Any help is greatly appreciated

Mike

[dilly]

Are you hunting grizzly in grizzly country or hunting other game and wanting this for protection?

[CourtenayBoy]

Hunting moose and deer etc. Scared of dem big ol grizzlies. I want a bullet to stop a charge

[Skipper]

Ranchdog 460

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC460435RF/bullet/sketch.jpg

[AllanD]

In the Marlin I would stick to a 375-405gr bullet.

My personal pick? not entirely sure as I've never given it much thought as the nearest likely Grizzly is some 1500 miles away...

Not many Grizzlies outside of those in major Zoos in Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington...

[sharpsguy]

Get a Lyman 457121PH. It is a 480 grain flat nosed bullet with seven grease grooves, and is magic in a 45-70. Cast it from AC WW and load it with 38 grains of 3031 for 1300 fps and you will shoot through any grizzly that walks from any angle. It cycles through my Marlin 1895 like butter. I have a friend in Alaska that runs this in his 1886 Winchester and loves it. I have not used it on bear, but I have gotten complete pass through on three different bison and several African animals with it. This is the Real Deal, not a guess.

[waco]

Check out what Tom at Accurate has to offer. This is a plain base 405gr and he offers them up to 500+gr all with or without gas checks.
This design is made to feed 100% through the Marlin.
You can have him make your mold to drop at whatever diameter you want with what alloy you want. It's a win win.

[Markbo]

My guess....Just a guess mind you....That 405 will pass through elk, bison and grizzly just like sharpsguy's 480 @ 1300fps or even a bit less.

[waco]

My guess....Just a guess mind you....That 405 will pass through elk, bison and grizzly just like sharpsguy's 480 @ 1300fps or even a bit less.

This is why I got the 405!
No gas check needed for me. All my loads are kept under 1600fps.
Should pass clean through most anything.

[sharpsguy]

The 405 won't reliably pass through a bison side to side. Neither will a 450. I have witnessed this first hand several times. The 480 goes all the way through as long as the impact velocity is kept at 1300 fps or less. The 500 grain round nosed Govt. bullet is what you want for penetration, but it makes a loaded round that is too long to cycle through the 1895 Marlin.

[Cornbread]

I use this one from Accurate:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/46-405C_zpszfrvwwuc.png

....and this is why. This picture was taken by a friend about a half mile from where I was hunting Fri, and Sat this week. It's feeding on gut piles left by other deer and elk hunters. 99% of the time they leave you alone if you leave them alone, it's the 1% that can really hurt a fella:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/12196229_10153699945078374_5892664713017852270_n_z psent2kh6l.jpg

[CourtenayBoy]

You guys are truly fantastic. I have had a busy day but managed to look into some things mentioned. I have been giving some bullets made by accurate molds a good long look. I have the option with them to add multiple designs in the same mould block.

I am thinking of ordering an aluminum block with a 46-350VG/46-405VG/46-525VG

These bullets have a ridiculously wide meplat and I believe if not mistaken were designed specifically for a Marlin 1895. They are designed to duplicate a beartooth piledriver.

My only qualm now is sifting through alloy information to figure out what would give me the hardest toughest bullet possible. Tom at accurate moulds requires me to predetermined an alloy to be used before production. I am not opposed to finding whatever I need to do that. My brain hurts a little trying to take everything in.


Any info as always is incredibly appreciated. I am always so humbled to see how willing perfect strangers are to help out

Cheers

Mike

[CourtenayBoy]

The 405 won't reliably pass through a bison side to side. Neither will a 450. I have witnessed this first hand several times. The 480 goes all the way through as long as the impact velocity is kept at 1300 fps or less. The 500 grain round nosed Govt. bullet is what you want for penetration, but it makes a loaded round that is too long to cycle through the 1895 Marlin.

Pretty sure a magazine detonation from a round nosed bullet in a tube magazine would be even worse. I appreciate the advise but a roundnosed boolit is no good In a marlin 1895

[sharpsguy]

I said in my post that it was too long to work in a Marlin 1895.l I was just offering some extra real world information and you failed to pick up on it. Second point. I don't believe that the large round nose on the Govt. bullet will cause a chain fire in a tubular magazine. Remington and Winchester have offered ammunition for lever guns for over a hundred years that have more pointed nose shapes than the big round nosed Govt. bullet and this factory ammo does not detonate in the magazine tube. I actually doubt that you will see a grizzly, but good luck anyway with your learning curve.

[white eagle]

generally no need to know the exact alloy
I believe that Tom uses that intel for the diameter you requested
If I size the boolits I always order larger than my specific dia.anyway
to ensure that what ever alloy I use will work
I use a 420 gr beaut in my Ruger #1 kills famously
if you are looking for a hard alloy check out rotometal site the have
a product called super hard but hard is not the only variable needed to shoot a good cast boolit
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-420C-D.png,

[Cornbread]

Water dropped clip on wheel weights will go completely through a large black bear end to end(in the chest and out the rear ham) from a 454 Casull. I did that at 40 yards with a 2.5" 454 Casull when I was grouse hunting and that was all I had big enough to kill the bear because I was hunting with a .22 and luckily was wearing the 454 for bear protection. I often deer and elk hunt with 45-70 because there are a LOT of bears where I hunt, both grizzly and black so when hunting those areas the GF and I carry guns capable of doing double duty. No idea how they will perform on buffalo and I honestly don't care because I'll probably never get to shoot one but if you are wanting a proven (on bear) alloy that will penetrate without expansion and break bone without coming apart then water dropped COWW will do what you want. COWW was the alloy I specified when I had Tom make my 45-70 mold.

[popper]

No bears or 45/70 but add some Cu to the WW. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further/page15. Last post. Adds toughness and hardness (depends on how much you add) to the alloy. Plus you can probably go with a plain base.

[ChristopherO]

I don't have bears to concern myself with but Cornbread's choice happens to be the same one I made when ordering from Tom at Accurate Molds. Cycles perfectly in my 1895. I wanted the gas check because if I want to heat things up loading these I can do so. I have another plain base mold for lessor velocities, should I want, or I can use this mold for double duty. Nothing says a gas check shouldn't be used at 1,300 fps.

My $.02 on velocity: I've shot scores of deer with 355 grain 50 caliber conical boolits out of my muzzleloaders over the years from less than 20 yards up to 175 yards, one hole in and one hole out. Complete pass throughs with the boolit leaving the muzzle in the neighborhood of 1,200fps with soft lead. Yet, unless the spine was hit those deer always ran. They died but they ran. I've seen grizzlies in the wild and I don't have faith that a .45 caliber boolit traveling only 1,300 fps will stop said charging bear fast enough to keep you from getting chewed on. Will it kill it? Absolutely. Will it drop it in it's tracks in a full out charge? I wouldn't want to bet my life and limbs on that. It is one thing to kill a big game animal when they aren't aware their life is in danger but another thing to stop something angry and vicious. If it were me I would want a slug that will hit fast, and hard with quite a shocking effect in the event a grizzly comes running. This means I would use said boolit at the higher end of the velocity scale.


I use this one from Accurate:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/46-405C_zpszfrvwwuc.png

....and this is why. This picture was taken by a friend about a half mile from where I was hunting Fri, and Sat this week. It's feeding on gut piles left by other deer and elk hunters. 99% of the time they leave you alone if you leave them alone, it's the 1% that can really hurt a fella:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/12196229_10153699945078374_5892664713017852270_n_z psent2kh6l.jpg

[white eagle]

Really want bear protection any of these boolits in 45/70 will work famously
however the ultimate bear or 747 defense is a H&R ush with this boolit
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-770S-D.png,
made by Tom of course
you my want to modify the ush (legally of course) they tend to be a bit weighty
they drop a bit at 100 yds.but print nice little? groups at 50 yds.

[35Whelen]

The only way to stop a charging grizz is to bust his wheels. You can do a double lung shot on anything that walks on this earth and kill it; but it can take more time than you are willing to risk. The heavy, wide meplat bullets will penetrate when and where you want. Just remember that millions of buffalo were killed with 1200 fps lead slugs. A COWW bullet with a wide meplat will pentrate like a freight train, and contrary to popular belief, the faster you drive it, the less it will penetrate. Any 400-500 grain slug going 1300-1600 fps will do and end to end on anything you will want to kill in N America. Have a read of Garretts penetration tests.....heres the link http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html you will be amazed at the results. I have one of the hammerhead rounds in a mold from Tom at Accurate with a huge Meplat weighing in at 420 grains without lube or gas check.. If I recall correctly they come in at 430 all done up. I have the utmost confidence in this round on anything I can tangle with in the Selkirk mountains where I live....and we have some very impressive bears here.

154522

[CourtenayBoy]

The only way to stop a charging grizz is to bust his wheels. You can do a double lung shot on anything that walks on this earth and kill it; but it can take more time than you are willing to risk. The heavy, wide meplat bullets will penetrate when and where you want. Just remember that millions of buffalo were killed with 1200 fps lead slugs. A COWW bullet with a wide meplat will pentrate like a freight train, and contrary to popular belief, the faster you drive it, the less it will penetrate. Any 400-500 grain slug going 1300-1600 fps will do and end to end on anything you will want to kill in N America. Have a read of Garretts penetration tests.....heres the link http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html you will be amazed at the results. I have one of the hammerhead rounds in a mold from Tom at Accurate with a huge Meplat weighing in at 420 grains without lube or gas check.. If I recall correctly they come in at 430 all done up. I have the utmost confidence in this round on anything I can tangle with in the Selkirk mountains where I live....and we have some very impressive bears here.

154522

Sounds right up my alley. Could I get that mould number off you?

Mike

[35Whelen]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-420C-D.png

Double check with Tom if you are using this in a levergun, as I'm not sure if there is enough taper to chamber in those short throated rifles. Otherwise I would go with the previously listed one, or the same nose shape with heavier weight.

[Geezer in NH]

The only way to stop a charging grizz is to bust his wheels. Not really, the same as stopping a charging elephant is to cancel their credit card! :bigsmyl2: :kidding:

[BrentD]

Sometimes, I think you guys oversell the penetration issues "just a bit". I posted some results from my moose hunt were 4 of 5 of my 483 gr slugs did not fully penetrate a moose (so much for "end to end in anything in North America").

That said, I think the 400+ gr flat meplats would be the ticket in a .45-70 multishooter like a Marlin. Just don't oversell the idea that everything up and dies instantly when hit from any angle with one of these. Aim for the CNS at halitosis ranges, and forget about "breaking down" a charging Grizzly. You need him stoned dead and frontal shots at shoulders ain't where it's likely to be at - or at least that's my opinion given the same amoutn of experience that most of us have with this subject.


http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Moose/Moose%20and%20Ballard%20A%20small.jpg
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Moose/Moose%20Killer%20Bullets%20small.jpg

[sharpsguy]

Brent--I suspect that you would have shot all the way through that moose if your bullets had been a touch harder and a little heavier. 40-1 is too soft for really good penetration in bison and moose sized animals. I have two friends that have each killed moose and got complete pass through and one shot kills using 20-1 bullets. One was a WFN greaser at 502 grains and the other a 511 grain round nosed paper patched bullet. It may not seem like much, but the jump from 480 to 500 to 510 grains makes a noticeable difference in penetration.

The only time I failed to get a complete pass through on a bison was a 480 FN greaser out of a 45-110 at 1338 fps. I think the bullet was too light and too fast, as a 520 grain round nosed Govt. bullet at 1260 went through and through the same animal. I have also shot that same 480 FN through and through both shoulders of a 2000 pound bison bull with a 45-70 at 1242 fps.

I am big on double lung hits with a pass through, as the exit wound stays open and causes an air leak that collapses the lungs. This is the quickest kill short of a CNS hit, as collapsed lungs cause the animal to go into systemic shock and everything simply shuts down.

[reloader28]

We've had 3 griz attacks here in the last month and a half. 2 of them are neighbors and all by different bears. The last one was bird hunting and he managed to get off 3 shots with his shotgun. She dropped about 10' from him on the last shot to the face. Covered 30yds in like 2 seconds. Unfortunatly she got up and the game wardens had to look for her.

Since then I've been thinking about switching to 00buck in a shotgun for bear protection. If you are charged, it will be fast and the bear will always be facing you. Maybe a 30cal or bigger shot ball to the head is better than a single boolit.

[CourtenayBoy]

Thanks for all the replies folks, I do appreciate all the help I can get. I slugged my bore tonight using fishing weights and it is a perfect .457

I assume I should go with a bullet at .458 or larger?

Mike

[CourtenayBoy]

I said in my post that it was too long to work in a Marlin 1895.l I was just offering some extra real world information and you failed to pick up on it. Second point. I don't believe that the large round nose on the Govt. bullet will cause a chain fire in a tubular magazine. Remington and Winchester have offered ammunition for lever guns for over a hundred years that have more pointed nose shapes than the big round nosed Govt. bullet and this factory ammo does not detonate in the magazine tube. I actually doubt that you will see a grizzly, but good luck anyway with your learning curve.

I meant no offense by my statement and do appreciate you sharing your experience.

I hope I don't see any grizzlies either. I'm just fine with that but insurance is nice.

Mike

[Cornbread]

Thanks for all the replies folks, I do appreciate all the help I can get. I slugged my bore tonight using fishing weights and it is a perfect .457

I assume I should go with a bullet at .458 or larger?

Mike

My Guide Gun is the same as yours internal diameter wise and I shoot a .458 or .459 bullet out of it depending on which bullet type I am using. For some reason mine seems to like the 405s at .459 and the lighter ones like 350gr at .458. Also because the grooves are so shallow on the guide gun it is really lube sensitive and if I lube anything more than just one bottom groove I end up getting lube purge fliers every few shots. Lubing just one groove I get .8 of an inch groups at 100 yards from a lead sled when load testing my best load, if I lube more than that the fliers can open that group up to anywhere from 3" to 5" or worse sometimes.

[CourtenayBoy]

My Guide Gun is the same as yours internal diameter wise and I shoot a .458 or .459 bullet out of it depending on which bullet type I am using. For some reason mine seems to like the 405s at .459 and the lighter ones like 350gr at .458. Also because the grooves are so shallow on the guide gun it is really lube sensitive and if I lube anything more than just one bottom groove I end up getting lube purge fliers every few shots. Lubing just one groove I get .8 of an inch groups at 100 yards from a lead sled when load testing my best load, if I lube more than that the fliers can open that group up to anywhere from 3" to 5" or worse sometimes.


The lube issue I hadn't heard yet, good to know. Now that I know bore diameter I am trying to find an inexpensive lee luber sizer in .458 or .459. Canada sucks for reloading gear and honestly I can't find one anywhere in the country online.

Maybe a sizer isn't necessary now that I know what size mould to buy. How do you keep the lube to only the lower lube rings?

Mike

[Cornbread]

I use a lyman 4500 lube sizer set to only go down as far as the first groove to set the gas check and lube one groove for all the bullets I am going to do that way. Then I back off the pressure on it so it doesn't output any lube and set it down so it will size the entire bullet and then I run them all through again. This two step method allows me to lube only one groove and set the gas check and then later size the entire bullet.

The other method that works well and is a whole lot cheaper and you can use your existing reloading press is to size using an NOE generic push through sizing die, .458 bushing and push rod for .45 cal and then pan lube it after it is sized so that the lube in the pan only goes up to the first groove.

You can use any variation of those two processes that works best and cheapest for you(or something else entirely) but the nice thing about the NOE push through sizer is it fits your existing press and if you want to change the bushing from .458 to .459 or even up to .460 you only have to pick up that size bushing from them and chuck it up in the die so for every size within a caliber you are only out a little less than $10(USD) once you have the generic die and push rod. I'm not sure if NOE is a sponsor here or not? If they are I can link you to their sizing die stuff so you can order from them.

[BrentD]

Brent--I suspect that you would have shot all the way through that moose if your bullets had been a touch harder and a little heavier.
Very unlikely considering that the bullets hardly expanded at all even though there were 40:1. The only expanded bullet is the last, a neck shot at point blank that centered the spine right behind the head. There rest of them show no signs of being "too soft".

[quote]40-1 is too soft for really good penetration in bison and moose sized animals. I have two friends that have each killed moose and got complete pass through and one shot kills using 20-1 bullets. One was a WFN greaser at 502 grains and the other a 511 grain round nosed paper patched bullet. It may not seem like much, but the jump from 480 to 500 to 510 grains makes a noticeable difference in penetration.

Definitely not in my experience at all. I have shot through some with lighter bullets and failed to shoot through some others, that were both an order of magnitude smaller with much heavier bullets.




The only time I failed to get a complete pass through on a bison was a 480 FN greaser out of a 45-110 at 1338 fps. I think the bullet was too light and too fast, as a 520 grain round nosed Govt. bullet at 1260 went through and through the same animal. I have also shot that same 480 FN through and through both shoulders of a 2000 pound bison bull with a 45-70 at 1242 fps.
Perhaps bison hide is not nearly as tough as moose.



I am big on double lung hits with a pass through, as the exit wound stays open and causes an air leak that collapses the lungs. This is the quickest kill short of a CNS hit, as collapsed lungs cause the animal to go into systemic shock and everything simply shuts down.

All four bullets double lunged. The lungs did not collapse. He bled to death.

[sharpsguy]

The fact that the moose was double lunged and the moose bled to death without the lungs collapsing reinforces my point about the need for an exit wound. The air leak from the exit wound is what causes the rapid collapse of the lungs and the onset of immediate systemic shock which is a quick killer in a large animal. The fact that you shot through the lungs four times without collapsing them meant that the moose was going to die, but it was going to take longer than if they had collapsed. Collapsed lungs or not, that IS a nice moose.

BTW, I have a really good flat nosed paper patched bullet that hits like a freight train. I'll send you some with the paper I use on them if you would like.

[BrentD]

There was a an exit one of the 4 did exit and another of the 4 followed very nearly the same track coming within an inch of the exit. So, no, double lunging even with 5 holes in the rib cage (4 in 1 out) wasn't enough to collapse anything. Nothing "immediate" about anything.

He does taste damn good, that is for sure.

I will definitely use a flatnose next time. I do not think round noses are at all appropriate after this experience. Although my bullets did have a flat point, it was far too small to matter.

Back to the OP's issue a bear bullet, I think the large meplate bullets in the 400+ range would be the ticket. Don't count on much expansion, in fact, make the bullets hard, but put the bullet on the central nervous system and all will be good. If not there, then you may have some issues. Penetration should not be too much of an issue since the CNS is not very deep. And basically, on a charging bear, all you need is to penetrate the top of the skull, nose/muzzle, back of the mouth, or throat and you will have success. Heart shooting is going to be damn tough and maybe not fast enough, and double lunging, isn't going to happen in a charge even if it was fast enough in taking effect, (which it isn't).

Next time I'm bear charged, that's what I hope to have anyway :)

Brent

[Geezer in NH]

I had no problem with lung shot moose with my flintlock 54 cal 120grn 2f and 1 1/2-2 inch exit holes both moose went 25 yards or so.

[Markbo]

What projectile Geezer....come on you KNOW everyone wants to know hiw heavy! ;)

[Lonegun1894]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the RCBS 45-405-FN. Mine weighs 425grs before lube, casts at .4605", so I lube it and run it through a .460" sized just to crimp the GC on, and it feeds and shoots great in my 1895.

[Geezer in NH]

What projectile Geezer....come on you KNOW everyone wants to know hiw heavy! ;).530 round ball .015 patch lubed with bear fat and bee's wax 230 grn I think

[sac]

Get a Lyman 457121PH. It is a 480 grain flat nosed bullet with seven grease grooves, and is magic in a 45-70. Cast it from AC WW and load it with 38 grains of 3031 for 1300 fps and you will shoot through any grizzly that walks from any angle. It cycles through my Marlin 1895 like butter. I have a friend in Alaska that runs this in his 1886 Winchester and loves it. I have not used it on bear, but I have gotten complete pass through on three different bison and several African animals with it. This is the Real Deal, not a guess.

Sorry for bringing up a post from a year ago, but do you have an OAL. for this load?

Thanks Scott

[tdoyka]

Welcome to Jae-Bok Young's Bullet Casting (http://www.crater4570.com/bullets.html)

i'd go with the 550gr wfngc or a 420gr wfngc.

[725]

Back to the OP, I'd highly recommend the 460-420. Cast on the hard side and pushed fairly fast. Along with so many others, it's awesome.

[Rufus Krile]

The 405 won't reliably pass through a bison side to side. Neither will a 450. I have witnessed this first hand several times. The 480 goes all the way through as long as the impact velocity is kept at 1300 fps or less. The 500 grain round nosed Govt. bullet is what you want for penetration, but it makes a loaded round that is too long to cycle through the 1895 Marlin.

Last March I watched a friend hammer a bison with 3 405gr bullets @+/- 1400fps from about 20yds. Two exited, one broke a rib going in, trashed both lungs, broke a rib coming out and hung up just inside the skin on the far side. It weighed 267gr when done. Use the bigger bullet like Sharpsguy said. If someone has a 460-500gr that'll cycle in the Marlin, go for it. The COWW alloy starts about 11-12bhn but you can 'quench' them (oven bake for 45min @ 430F dropped into water) and get them into the high 20's. You're going to want them a couple of thousandths oversized to avoid leading, tho'.

[Avenger442]

Last March I watched a friend hammer a bison with 3 405gr bullets @+/- 1400fps from about 20yds. Two exited, one broke a rib going in, trashed both lungs, broke a rib coming out and hung up just inside the skin on the far side. It weighed 267gr when done. Use the bigger bullet like Sharpsguy said. If someone has a 460-500gr that'll cycle in the Marlin, go for it. The COWW alloy starts about 11-12bhn but you can 'quench' them (oven bake for 45min @ 430F dropped into water) and get them into the high 20's. You're going to want them a couple of thousandths oversized to avoid leading, tho'.

We have some black bear in our area but no griz. I know the 11-12 BHN is not too hard for hunting white tail dear. But if I want to take just one gun with me, say the 45-70, is the 17-20 BHN bullet too hard for white tail? Understanding that if I hit him with a 45-70 there is a big hole just with the bullet and no mushroom.

Probably couldn't use a BHN soft enough to mushroom in the .308 on white tail and still penetrate bear. Most of the time I'm hunting with a .308 bolt gun. Loads worked up for it in 12-14 BHN are well over 2000 fps and will group consistent 2" at 100 yards. If I bump it up to 17 BHN it will do consistent 1-1 1/2". You guys have got me thinking about hunting deer with the 45-70 just in case. Bought the Marlin CB lever with the 26" barrel about a month ago and haven't had time and money to cast and load test. So it sits until I do.

[RugerFan]

Really want bear protection any of these boolits in 45/70 will work famously
however the ultimate bear or 747 defense is a H&R ush with this boolit
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-770S-D.png,
made by Tom of course
you my want to modify the ush (legally of course) they tend to be a bit weighty
they drop a bit at 100 yds.but print nice little? groups at 50 yds.

A single-shot would not be the action I would choose for bear defense.




Perhaps bison hide is not nearly as tough as moose.


FWIW bison hide is quite a bit thicker than moose.

[MT Chambers]

Check out LBT molds, I believe that most of those designs used by Garrett, are LBT designs.

[Bigslug]

I jokingly refer to the NOE 460-405 as the "Harbinger of the Milk Jug Apocalypse". It will feed in Marlins and the .34" meplat creates a bunch of displacement - truly spectacular on gallon jugs when driven above 1600 fps, and good to create a serious bleed-out on critters.

If you're driving it hard, a gas check will solve a lot of problems - namely retaining accuracy and controlling fouling, especially if a softer alloy is chosen for expansion in the hollowpoint version.

[Markbo]

Oooooor.... you could coat it and shoot it as hot as you like. :D

[sharpsguy]

OAL of the loaded 457121PH in a 45-70 is 2.540. Cycles through my 1895 Marlin and my friends' 1886 Winchester flawlessly. If I could have only one bullet for a 45-70, this would be it.

[sac]

OAL of the loaded 457121PH in a 45-70 is 2.540. Cycles through my 1895 Marlin and my friends' 1886 Winchester flawlessly. If I could have only one bullet for a 45-70, this would be it.
thank you sir, I've got a 535 postel for my 45-90 and have been trying to figure out how to make it work. I will be getting this mold you listed.

[Avenger442]

Does anyone know what BHN is too hard to expand on game animal, mostly white tail deer, at 2300-2500 fps? Sometimes I have trouble finding information because there are so many places it could be. I've been reading the Hunting section and most of the guys here are pushing bullets under 2000 fps with 50/50 WW/pure lead. Knowing that doesn't help me much for my application. If I have to do a 200 or 300 yard shot 1600-1800 fps out of the barrel will have a lot more drop to it.

Help Please!

[MT Chambers]

You have to check for feeding problems if your meplat is very wide as the edge gets caught up when feeding.

[Lonegun1894]

Does anyone know what BHN is too hard to expand on game animal, mostly white tail deer, at 2300-2500 fps? Sometimes I have trouble finding information because there are so many places it could be. I've been reading the Hunting section and most of the guys here are pushing bullets under 2000 fps with 50/50 WW/pure lead. Knowing that doesn't help me much for my application. If I have to do a 200 or 300 yard shot 1600-1800 fps out of the barrel will have a lot more drop to it.

Help Please!

Are you saying you're getting 2500 fps out of your .45-70? That's over anything my manuals show in the .45-70 sections, and only achievable in the .458 Win Mag with top end loads using light bullets. I can't help with the BHN part of your question, but you have my attention. I know my deer and hog load in .45-70 is the Lyman 457122HP at 335grs in my alloy, but I only push it to 1450 fps, and it kills them VERY dead. I don't even want to know what this bullet would do to an animal at 2300-2500fps, but I'm thinking lots of wasted meat.

[Avenger442]

Are you saying you're getting 2500 fps out of your .45-70? That's over anything my manuals show in the .45-70 sections, and only achievable in the .458 Win Mag with top end loads using light bullets. I can't help with the BHN part of your question, but you have my attention. I know my deer and hog load in .45-70 is the Lyman 457122HP at 335grs in my alloy, but I only push it to 1450 fps, and it kills them VERY dead. I don't even want to know what this bullet would do to an animal at 2300-2500fps, but I'm thinking lots of wasted meat.

I have a 45-70 that I'm still putting together the equip to cast and load with. Would have to shoot store bought in it if I hunt with it. But the 2200-2500 is with the .308 I'll be hunting with this season. I've been getting 1-1 1/2 inch groups with the load I'm shooting now. There is a possibility of a 200 yard shot where I hunt part of the season. So the speed might be needed. The bullet is 17 BHN and I was wondering if it was too hard to mushroom at 2500 fps. I know the accuracy drops off at 13 - 14 BHN.

[woodbutcher]

:shock: Many years ago(about 1966)my Father and a friend of his that moved to Florida from Idaho after he retired to get away from the hard winters.He was talking about hunting and outdoor sports,and the subject turned to the Grizzly,and what it took to stop a PO`ed charging grizzly.My Fathers friend said that the only certain way to positively stop one in his tracks was a 75mm recoiless rifle or a supersonic telephone pole.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[rodwha]

A harder BHN is necessary for leading in a ~1400 fps projectile??? That's not my understanding.

I have a mold for the 320 grn Lee REAL for my .50 cal that's going faster than that with 70 grns of 3F Olde E/T7. I've not shot enough of it though to say anything about leading (I use pure lead). Now I also use a felt wad as without it they keyhole at 50 yds.