Berdan primers

[beagle]

Ignorant question here but somebody's done this besides me. Back in the old days....early 60s.....I started loading shotshells on a Lyman Vandalia reloader.

On priming, there was two eays to go. One was to use regular battery cup primers either 97s or 209s. The second was to use what we called "caps" which looked like and probably were berdan primers which were about $6 a thousand.

To use the caps, we used a small punch to decap the shell using a shellholder with a smaller hole in it. This removed the fired "cap" and anvil. To reprime, you reinserted the old anvil and seated the new "cap" in the regular primer seater. I don't ever remember getting a missfire using this method.

I know that all of the primers have now gone to the 209 size now. I haven't seen any of those caps for years.

I'm wondering that, if they were berdan primers could shotshell primers be used as a source for the hard to find berdan primers by dissassembling primers in this manner.

Yeah, I know there's an element of risk involved but a special shellholder/punch and shield could be made to fit a standard single stage press.

Comments???/beagle

[Ricochet]

First, try measuring the O.D. of the cap in the battery cup primer. If it's the same as the Berdan primer you need, then you can proceed to try decapping it carefully as you suggest and see if the cup depth is appropriate. If so, I think you're right. Whether it's worth all the work is another question.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

It's one thing to remove the cap from a spent battery cup primer, quite another, from a live one, I would imagine, given the "Y" shaped anvil the decapping pin would be pressing against. The single point end of the anvil is pressing against the primer cake. How would you press it out without cracking, or worse, detonating the cake?
Morgan

[beagle]

Morgan, the pin we used back then was bigger in diameter than a standard large decapping pin that we use today. It shouldn't be a problem.

I don't have any berdan stuff but was wondering about it for these guys that are loading berdan primers and having a hard time finding them these days.

I guess this loading procedure went out of practice because it was too work intensive but when you were cutting cost back in those days, time was more plentiful than money./beagle

[floodgate]

beagle:

Those weren't Berdan "caps" per se, but primer caps used to rebuild standard shotshell primers, re-using the outer cup and anvil. I had - many years back - a little kit to do that, working with the original primers after they were pushed out of the cases, including a thousand or two CCI caps for #209 primers, but never actually did any, and eventually gave away the whole shebang. It would be pure luck if the caps matched any of the standard Berdan primer pockets.

Fg

[Ricochet]

But they just might. Especially considering that brass shotshells were often made to use Berdan primers. Might've reused some of the same ones in battery cups, who knows? Would've simplified inventory at the primer factory.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Beagle, the danger involved, has nothing to do with the decapping pin diameter, as long as it enters the battery cup. It presses on the notch in the anvil. It's the pressure exerted by the anvil, on the live primer cake, needed to remove the cap, that has me worried. Even if the caps could be removed without detonating, any cracks in the cakes will play havoc with ignition, causing poor accuracy.
Morgan

[pdawg_shooter]

Im lost here. The Berdan primed cases I remember had 2 small flash holes, one on either side of center. The anvil was in the case and not the primer cup.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

pdawg, You're correct, the anvil is part of the case, and the primer has to be seated at a pre-set depth. What is being discussed here, is to take apart a battery cup primer, and use the primer cap as a replacement for Berdan primers. The battery cup primer, consists of three pieces. The battery cup, an anvil with three prongs( two, one on each side of the flash hole, and one pressing on the primer cake)and the primer cap, which looks like a Berdan primer, in that it contains no anvil. As I'm sure you know, the Boxer primers we use have a built-in anvil, protruding the proper amount, so that fully seating them in the case, pre-compresses the primer cake to improve sensitivity.
Morgan

[HABCAN]

Many, many years ago, we used to just deprime shotshells with a suitable nail and a hammer over a hole in a board. Whether we reprimed with a special 'shotgun primer' or just regular standard large rifle primers, I'm not sure. But I do know we reloaded thousands of shotshells by re-seating the battery-cups (if necessary) and installing just a primer in them using fingers to get them started. A dowel inside the case finished seating with the base on a hard surface. No, nobody ever detonated one! And then..............along came the LEE Loader.

[Beaverhunter2]

I have a tool for decapping Berdan rifle (and pistol I suppose) cases. It's made by RCBS. My brother got it for me back when Boxer primed 7.62x39 was hard to find. I just seated large rifle primers (Boxers) normally in the Berdan cases. They worked fine and I never had a primer go off (until I pulled the trigger).

John

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Many, many years ago, we used to just deprime shotshells with a suitable nail and a hammer over a hole in a board. Whether we reprimed with a special 'shotgun primer' or just regular standard large rifle primers, I'm not sure. But I do know we reloaded thousands of shotshells by re-seating the battery-cups (if necessary) and installing just a primer in them using fingers to get them started. A dowel inside the case finished seating with the base on a hard surface. No, nobody ever detonated one! And then..............along came the LEE Loader.

Again, you weren't separating the parts of a LIVE battery cup primer. My first memory of reloading, was with my father back in the fifties. We had a copy of Popular Mechanics, which had an article called "Kitchen Table Reloading", if memory serves. All the tools were home made, with the exception of the bath scale we used to compress the load. We didn't have a roll crimper, so we glued the top wad into the case mouth, which was trimmed, with water glass(sodium silicate). After a while, when the paper shells gave out, we bought brass shells. These all worked well, in my J.C.Higgins Mod. 25 Bolt action 12GA.
WOW! These posts are really bringing back memories!:-D

[crazy mark]

LR Boxer primers are .210 dia and Bredan are .217, that makes it hard to seat a boxer in a berdan hole. The other issue is the anvil in the berdan brass won't allow boxer primers to be set. Berdan primers have a dished shaped area over the berdan anvil. Mark

[beagle]

Okay...I can see that./beagle


Beagle, the danger involved, has nothing to do with the decapping pin diameter, as long as it enters the battery cup. It presses on the notch in the anvil. It's the pressure exerted by the anvil, on the live primer cake, needed to remove the cap, that has me worried. Even if the caps could be removed without detonating, any cracks in the cakes will play havoc with ignition, causing poor accuracy.
Morgan

[beagle]

I did a bunch of them in my "poorer" days. Seems to me they were the same as one of the berdan sizes. I had one brass berdan primed 12 guage case and about 30 of the old Winchester "Guard" brass cases. The Winchesters used LP primers and I used those caps for that lone berdan case. I shot them a bunch in a 12 guage Fox double and got some strange looks on the dove fields.

Next time I'm in the shop, I'll dissassemble a fired battery cup and measure the diameter.

With the shortage of primers...well actually the higher cost of primers, wonder if there's any of those around on shelves?/beagle


beagle:

Those weren't Berdan "caps" per se, but primer caps used to rebuild standard shotshell primers, re-using the outer cup and anvil. I had - many years back - a little kit to do that, working with the original primers after they were pushed out of the cases, including a thousand or two CCI caps for #209 primers, but never actually did any, and eventually gave away the whole shebang. It would be pure luck if the caps matched any of the standard Berdan primer pockets.

Fg

[beagle]

Boys...good discussion here. That's what I was aiming at. That's how we learn./beagle

[trooperdan]

I also have one of those tools to press out the old cap from a 209 primer.. but I haven't seen any of the caps in decades! Must not have been popular when they were popular!

[TAWILDCATT]

my mind seem to tell me I saw that setup in my tools somewere.I used to do that.
it was NOT berdan.the 209 was taken apart and the oter and anvil was reseated then the primer was inserted.I dont remember ever using berdan.I think we used regular boxer primers.I dont think Berdan primers were available at that time.what I do remember was it was a pain.yes 209s cost but so does everything else.why are we nit picking at cost of primers when everything else is way more costly.22s used to be 25 cents at sears.you could buy a mossberg 22 rifle for $7.50 mod 42b. ammo is 8 times more expensive now,rifle 22 cal is 53 times more costly.I used 25 cents to $2.00 and 7.50 to 400[kimber]? you can do same.pick a rifle and divide the 7.5 of the mossberg.shotgun shell are $20 per 100 at wallyworld.is it worth it to didle with the primers.:coffee:[smilie=1::Fire:

[beagle]

The ones that I used had no anvils.

We're talking availability of berdan primers here for obsolete cases that are available in the berdan persuasion but not boxer.

Kind of looking for a way to use some of the berdan cases that otherwise aren't available./beagle


my mind seem to tell me I saw that setup in my tools somewere.I used to do that.
it was NOT berdan.the 209 was taken apart and the oter and anvil was reseated then the primer was inserted.I dont remember ever using berdan.I think we used regular boxer primers.I dont think Berdan primers were available at that time.what I do remember was it was a pain.yes 209s cost but so does everything else.why are we nit picking at cost of primers when everything else is way more costly.22s used to be 25 cents at sears.you could buy a mossberg 22 rifle for $7.50 mod 42b. ammo is 8 times more expensive now,rifle 22 cal is 53 times more costly.I used 25 cents to $2.00 and 7.50 to 400[kimber]? you can do same.pick a rifle and divide the 7.5 of the mossberg.shotgun shell are $20 per 100 at wallyworld.is it worth it to didle with the primers.:coffee:[smilie=1::Fire:

[leftiye]

Beagle, there was a thread in gunsmithing or Special projects (I think) about converting berdan cases for boxer primers. It was the same as one I read years ago in Handloader magazine. You put a rod against the inside of the head (put case over rod), and use a punch to flatten the berdan anvil. This probly closes the berdan flash holes too. Then you drill a new flash hole for the boxer primers. You might have to ream the primer pockets too.

[beagle]

I did a few 8mm Mauser cases like that many years back and it works if you don't have berdan primers. But, it was hard work with hand tools and I'd not go that route unless I was desperate...which I was at the time./beagle


Beagle, there was a thread in gunsmithing or Special projects (I think) about converting berdan cases for boxer primers. It was the same as one I read years ago in Handloader magazine. You put a rod against the inside of the head (put case over rod), and use a punch to flatten the berdan anvil. This probly closes the berdan flash holes too. Then you drill a new flash hole for the boxer primers. You might have to ream the primer pockets too.