BD45CM Testing and Performance

[sundog]

New thread to collect performance data on this new boolit.

I reported earlier that my measurements were similar to what Tony had - .451 to .455 and boolits out of round. That was the first batch of about a hunert cast last week when the mould arrived - straight WWs. I lee-mented it real good before putting it into service. Other than the out or round condition, the boolits look real good and the mould operates properly. Even after lee-menting though I am getting a slight shiny spot between cavities 3 and 4, but it is not galling.

Last night I ran that batch of boolits through a .452 sizer and dressed them with big batch FWFL. They are sitting on the bench waiting to be loaded in 45 acp with SMP231. Might load a few in 45 Colt just for grins. Good news is that they are now VERY round, at least on the driving bands - look REALLY good. If this works, the out of round condition in the raw will be a nonissue. I am off next week and will test fire them and provide a range report.

Tony put in a lot of work on this one, so lets share some performance data. All y'all what got this mould, pipe in. sundog

[sundog]

Well, I'll go ahead and post about the 45 Colt. Shot 2 to test then 5 more to see if I could group at 15 yards using GD. BIG group. Then had to go to dinner. This evening I got 14 (2 mags) loaded of 45 acp. Stopped, will try them tomorrow. They are loaded with 5.6gr SMP231. If they are any good I'll load up a bunch more and see what they'll do at longer ranges. One thing I noticed about the Colt loads was the bore was well lubed, clean.

Hasn't anyone else shot any yet? sundog

[AnthonyB]

sundog, I haven't had time to do anything more with mine at all. Hope it works better in the ACP than it did in the Colt... Tony

[sundog]

Just came back from the range. Shot two 7-round groups at 25 yds off a rest with a Kimber Gold Match. Both groups under 3 inches (both had 5 under 2). POI was 5 inches higher than POA. I took a stab at a load, 5.6 SMP231. I'm sure that playing around with it could be very accurate. I'll load up some more now that it's feed and function tested and report back, again.

Am I the onliest one what's shot any yet? sundog

[David R]

I loaded up a box of 50 for my 45, and a box of 50 452460

I also loaded up a box for my 45 colt Model 25 and a box of 250 kieth SWC to compare both.

I'm a goin to the range tomorrow after work.

EeeeHhhaaa!!

David

[David R]

Well, after busting my hump to get out of work at 6:00 pm, I did have enough time to fire some 10 shot groups.

All shots were fired from my Model 25 Smith 45 Colt. I used 7.2 grains of WW 231. Fired at 25 yards. The loaded boolit would slide right into the front of the cylinders of the smith....Not good.

Group 1 from the BD45CM was not looking too good. It was getting dark and the target was blurry at 25 yards, so were the sites.

Group 2 was better with some unexplained fliers. Not too bad, about 3 or 4 inches with a few shots WAAAy out in the white. This time I was using my Merrit optical thing.

Group 3 was double action standing out from underneeth the firing point so I could see better. All in the black, nice centered group. These were the best of the bunch. All this shows is I am not too good at shooting a revolver off the bench.

Truly, I think this boolit can shoot. Usually those wild fliers mean too small of a boolit, which I knew before I started. I also shot three groups of 250 Kieth style SWC boolits for comparison. When looking at the targets in the end, the BD45CM had a smaller group not counting the fliers. SOO I think if I hone the cavities with some of the boolits I cast, it will get rid of the out of round and make a bigger boolit.
Shooting my 45 acp with a Wilson barrel on Thursday night Indoors at 50 feet to see how it does in there. I already see those boolits crimped on the forward band Just fit in the magazine with no room to spare. Nice job designing the shape.

David

If these are truly too small, I will have to throw all 1250 of em back in the pot for a remelt.

[David R]

When sizing my boolits, I didn't have the right top punch, so I used a flat wadcutter punch. Some of the boolits weren't sized straight. Today I bought a Lyman #460 and chucked it in the drill press. With some medium emery wrapped around a drill bit shank, I made the profile close to the boolit. Tonight I sized a bunch more and loaded more. They look MUCH better. Tomorrow night is at the range, so I can report again on the performance in the 45 colt and 45 Auto.

Hopefully you can disregard the previous results.

David

[AnthonyB]

Fellas, keep the results coming. Circumstances are preventing me from trying any, but I love hearing your results. Tony

[Lloyd Smale]

shot them cast out of 5050 ww/lyno lubed with felix and loaded with 5 grains of surplus aa2 out of my gold cup and my springfield they shot great all groups in the 1-1.5 range. My kimber comander did about 2.5 inch which is typical for that gun. The 625 didnt like it at all but that is about the most finiky gun i own. No time for real load developement this year but ill be on it next year. I know that any bullet that will shoot the first load i throw together as well as it did the the first two 1911s is a keeper.

[David R]

Lloyd Smale, how far?

David

[David R]

OK, the 45 colt just doesn't like these boolits. 50 yards, can't keep em all on the paper.

45 AUTO, much better, but still not as good as my 452460. The only problem is, I loaded the BD45CM with 5 grains of WW231, and the 452460 was loaded with 3.5 grains of Bullseye, which my gun just loves. At 50 yards, I was keeping 13 out of 15 on the paper. 452460 was around 4" X 2" group.

At 50 FEET, the BD45CM held a smaller 10 shot group than the Lyman boolit, even with 3.5 Bullseye. I am going to get some valve grinding compound and lap out the mold in the driving band area only. I plan on putting the compound in the driving bands in the mold, with some oil in the nose sectioin. I have a drill press, so it won't be too bad of a job. This should add a few thousands to the size of the boolit and get rid of some of the out of round. I'll let ya know how it works out. It might take a week because its been real busy at work.

I didn't shoot the 45 colt indoors at 50 feet, its a little too much for that range.... Speed limit 900 fps and I was close.

David

[Lloyd Smale]

25 yards off sand bags.
Lloyd Smale, how far?

David

[David R]

A few more things. I usually pour my boolits with wheelweights and 5% tin. These were poured with 1/2 pure lead and 1/2 wheel weights with 2 1/2% tin. This is bugging me, so TODAY I am going to open up the cavities and pour a few more this weekend. Looks like the first 1250 boolits I poured go back in the pot. Guess I got ahead of my self.

I will load the next batch with 4 grains of Bullseye for the ACP. Also going to try ONE more time with the 45 colt. Bigger harder boolits ahead of my standard load of 9 grs Unique. Never used much WW231, but have a surpluls on hand. That is why I was tryig it.

Nice shooting Lloyd.

[David R]

I don't want to make this the Davidr thread.

But

Today, I took the mold to work. I put 6 boolits in the mold, drilled the center in the drill press through the spure plate. I then screwed in some long drywall screws with smooth shanks on them. I cut off the heads. Put the shank in the drill press, added some oil to the mold blocks and tried to see what happens. I closed the mold on the spinning boolit. Seemed to work OK. SO I put a little oil based fine valve grinding compound in the driving band area of the mold. I squeezed the mold on the spinning boolit. Held it for a 10 count and went on to the next cavity. did this for all 6. I then put in another boolit and screw. This time I started from the back and did the same thing.

Tonight when I got home, I poured some boolits (melted old ones). They measure .453 to .455. If you remember, the original ones measures .450 to .453 and .451 to .454. The operation was a success as far as that part is concerened. I will let you know if the patient lives by monday If I get time to head out to the range. I sized a few, they come out .451 all the way around on both driving bands. This is the sizing die I have been using for years for both guns.

SO, I went form .003 out of round to .002, and from too dang small to big enough or a little too big.

I have 2 of those boolits on a screw if anybody wants em, let me know. I think one will do the job. I was shooting for .452 like we were supposed to get. I will mail em out for free.

David

[AnthonyB]

David, keep it coming! I wish I had time to play with mine - I haven't even finished Leementing the first test mold yet. Sounds like you made a pretty big improvement on yours... Tony

[David R]

OK, Its pouring rain so I went to the indoor range. Fifty Feet. I had a blast, I haven't shot my 45 indoors in a long time. It used to be that was All I did.

Smith 45 Colt. Forget it. It just don't like those boolits. I gave up when I saw one had tumbled. Just for the heck of it, I loaded 10 452460 to see if it liked them, it sure did. Nice little group right in the bull. Both loaded with 7.2 of WW231.

Back to ol ironsides. Save the bull, here are the results.

BD45CM with 5 grains 231 10 shots, 1 7/8". 9 shots in 1 1/2". NIce looking group, most touching, one flier that I called. (the jerk behind the trigger)

4.5 grains 231, 2 1/8"

To compare, 452460, 5 grains 231 10 in 1 3/4" 9 in ONE INCH. One lonly flier.

My standard control load, 452460 3.5 Bullseye. 10 shots 1 5/8"

I saved 10 of the 4.5 231 BDs and 10 of my old favorite load to shoot at 50 yards. Results were inconclusive. I obvously am no relation to Mr. Ransom that invented that cool rest.

SO to take a step back and look, all are in the one to two inch area.

ONE more thing to try. Now that I have a hardness tester thanks to Mr. Buckshot, I checked one of my 452460. 22BHN. that aint quenched either. I just used to add tin till the front driving band filled out. These boolits are 1/2 wheelweights, 1/2 lead and "some" tin. They come up 13BHN. My readings may be a little high, Idunno. I am going to pour some more and quench em and see how they shoot. These will be out of the same alloy I used for the first batch (I threw em all back in da pot)

Next is my aluminum officers model. See what and how that one shoots these here boolits.

Results from the quenched boolits in a week.

David

[David R]

Just a few more Ideas. Acording to Lyman 45th edition, Smith and wesson 45 colt has a 1 turn in 20" twist and all ACPs have a one turn in 16". This explains why Lloyd and Sundog also had poor luck with this boolit. I totally give up on the model 25 and this boolit.

I also noticed the 4.5 grains of 231 shot a bigger group than 5.0 of 231.

SO NOW I am going to try some at max load with a few powders up to Blue Dot and see if they stabilize better. This is only for my 5" acp and officers model. Max or close to it are all I shoot in the officers model, its NOT a target gun. No big Bo Mar sight, short sight radius, factory trigger. The whole gun is box stock. If these shoot well, it will be great because its one bad looking boolit from the front.

I did pour a coffee can full of qeunched ones last night. after a week I will shoot em and see if harder is better.

When I get into something, I really do it!

David

[Lloyd Smale]

David thanks for the info on the 25 i didnt know that. It explains alot of the finicky nature of that gun though and gives me some ideas as to what to try next in it.

[David R]

Lloyd,

For My model 25, its simple. I have a 255? or so kieth boolit ahead of 9 grains of unique. That gives close to 900 fps which is a factory duplicate or maybe just a few fps more. If you would like to try, I will send some to get ya hooked. I shoot silly wets with this gun, won Iron site class with it this year.

I was shooting a WHOLE bunch of 2400 and a 260 GC boolit for a hunting load, but I finally got a 44 mag. Now I can keep this gun in good shape. I love it.

I don't toatlly understand this whole twist thing, but can sure see the difference. If the BC45CM is shorter, It shouldn't need as much twist Right?

Going to the range after work today to test out 5.5 of 231, unique, blue dot, and the quenched boolits. Got 200 rounds to burn up :)

David

[StarMetal]

Lloyd and others, don't go believing what Davids reads as gospel. I have an 8 3/8 barreld S&W Model 25 in 45 Long Colt. I just went down in the shop and actually measured the rifling. It's 1 in 16 NOT 20. What makes anyone think or believe that Smith is going to tool up a whole different twist for the 45 LC when all along they use the same barrels on their 45 acp revolvers? I've done extensive shooting with my 25 and it's a deadly accurate revolver, in fact one of the most accurate revolvers I've owned or shot. I shot a group long ago when I lived up in Ohio (and my eyes were much better) of one inch at 65 yards using the RCBS 255 SWC over 9.0 grs of Unique. I've shot ALL kinds of cast bullets out of this gun both long and short. In fact as short as the Lyman single lube groove 195 gr SWC for the 45 acp. All accurate, none tumble. If you do a comparision of the groove shape and depths on the Smith 45 acp and 45 LC revolvers you will see that they are the same....SHALLOW and five grooved.

David...send me some of your tumbling in the Smith 25 bullets and I'll send you some impressive groups back shooting them out of mine.

I wasn't a fancier of long barreled handguns until I bought this Smith at the Tulsa Gun Show. I remember the first day I took it to the range to shoot. I had my favorite Long Colt load, which I mentioned earlier, as I had other 45 LC revolver and used them. I found some playing cards at the range and set one up at 50 yards. I couldn't believe it especially since I didn't adjust the sight and tried the gun as the sight where set. I put all five bullets into that card ( I shoot five shots at time out of revolver because that way I get ten loadings out of a box of 50). I knew then I would love this revolver.

Joe

[David R]

Last time,

I shot 200 rounds tonight. I found out a few things. These boolits shoot best in My guns loaded to the max. I shot one group with 4.5 WW231 and quenched boolits. 10 shots, looked exactly like the last one with the un quenched boolits. 1 3/4"

I loaded 1/2 box with 5.7 grains of ww231. Don't do this . They were too hot. In my target gun I could see machine marks in the primer and a small swipe from the firing pin. The aluminum officers model was a b*tch to hang on to but it showed no signs of excessive pressure. It did shoot some nice groups. My target 5" shot a 1 5/8" group with soft (unquenched) boolits and another just like it with quenched boolits. (no difference there)

Same boolit ahed of 7.2 grains of Unique. Shot well with just a little verticle stringing. Shot great out of the officers model, but still hard to hang on to.
Officers model, 2 1/4" 10 shots,
5" target gun 2" 10 shots

Last batch 9.5 of Blue Dot. verticle stringing from both guns, more from the shorter barrel officers model. The case was full. Ditch this load.
Officers model, 2 1/4" for 5 shots
2 1/8 for 10 shots in the 5" target gun.

I also brought along a box of 5.o bullesey over the 200 grain 452460. The BD45CM shot as well, but only with max loading.

The officers model did lock the slide open a few times before the mag was empty. I could have these loaded too long, I could see about 1/8" of the front band. I had to help the slide close a few times with the 5" 45. It has a wilson barrel.

Time was well spent, I had a blast tonight. I have a nice stack of targets to study. I put this project to rest. I am NOT selling my 452460 4 cavity Lyman.

Starmetal,
I checked the twist in my Smith. It seems to be 1 in 20, but what do I know? I marked a cleaning rod, pulled it out 4" and it didn't make 1/4 turn. I said the boolit tumbled in my gun, not yours.

David

[StarMetal]

David

You have to have a very tight fitting patch and sometimes you get a different reading pulling out the rod versus pushing in. I doubt 16 or 20 is going to make that much difference. In the 20 twist the bullet has turned 4/5ths of the way around at the 16 inch mark.

Joe

[David R]

Star, I only have a 5" barrel.

David

[StarMetal]

Dave

You have my symphaty. Just kidding. Revolvers are hard to do because of those barrels. Most rifles barrels are long enough to get one full turn of the cleaning rod. I'll tell you another thing about those Smith 25's. The rifling is so shallow that they tend to skip (strip) the rifling with soft alloys. Have you ever recovered any of your fired slugs and seen severe slippage of the rifling on them?

Joe

[David R]

Star,
I have recovered some boolits from the berms at the silly wet match. No striping of the rifling and most of the lube was still there. This gun shoots awesome with everything except the BD45CM. I can shoot smaller groups with my 45 acp at 50 feet, but much smaller with the smith at 100 Yards. Go figure. It must be the bomar on the ACP that makes the diff.

David

[Lloyd Smale]

thanks for the offer on the bullets but i have many molds in that area. As a matter of fact the gun shoots the heavier swcs real well. But the gun is used mostly for ppc shooting and plinking and i want a low recoiling load that loads good with speed loaders. Problem im really having is finding a round nosed bullet that shoots. I was hoping that this bullet would fill the need as it loads pretty well with clips but just like with the round nosed bullets it just doesnt like them. I have to agree on the striping of bullets though as ive seen it in my gun. I found that even at low velocities the gun prefers a bullet at least as hard as 5050 ww lyno.
Lloyd and others, don't go believing what Davids reads as gospel. I have an 8 3/8 barreld S&W Model 25 in 45 Long Colt. I just went down in the shop and actually measured the rifling. It's 1 in 16 NOT 20. What makes anyone think or believe that Smith is going to tool up a whole different twist for the 45 LC when all along they use the same barrels on their 45 acp revolvers? I've done extensive shooting with my 25 and it's a deadly accurate revolver, in fact one of the most accurate revolvers I've owned or shot. I shot a group long ago when I lived up in Ohio (and my eyes were much better) of one inch at 65 yards using the RCBS 255 SWC over 9.0 grs of Unique. I've shot ALL kinds of cast bullets out of this gun both long and short. In fact as short as the Lyman single lube groove 195 gr SWC for the 45 acp. All accurate, none tumble. If you do a comparision of the groove shape and depths on the Smith 45 acp and 45 LC revolvers you will see that they are the same....SHALLOW and five grooved.

David...send me some of your tumbling in the Smith 25 bullets and I'll send you some impressive groups back shooting them out of mine.

I wasn't a fancier of long barreled handguns until I bought this Smith at the Tulsa Gun Show. I remember the first day I took it to the range to shoot. I had my favorite Long Colt load, which I mentioned earlier, as I had other 45 LC revolver and used them. I found some playing cards at the range and set one up at 50 yards. I couldn't believe it especially since I didn't adjust the sight and tried the gun as the sight where set. I put all five bullets into that card ( I shoot five shots at time out of revolver because that way I get ten loadings out of a box of 50). I knew then I would love this revolver.

Joe

[Slowpoke]

New thread to collect performance data on this new boolit.
sundog

My mold was a little better than what I call normal for Lee quality.

It only needed to be deburred around the nose portion of all six cavities took me about 1 hour.

I get .451 - .452 on the bottom band and .453 - 454 on the top band depending on the cavity I detect no major out of roundness with this one.

They average 231.5 grs. after sizing and lube. My alloy is 3 lb WW to 1 lb Lino plus 1 1/4 oz of 95-5.

I loaded 200 up with my usual load for the acp, 8.4 gr of HS-6, Win Case and the CCI 300. I found a OAL of 1.235 to be the magic number for my gun.

NO surprises, it functioned without a hitch and I was able to hold my 2 inch standard at twenty yards for the acp . I dumped the first 4 magazines into the berm just as fast as I could shoot and change magazines. The only real test left in my mind is to find out how it does on fur !

Thanks Tony and Bob

[Bullshop]

Slowpoke
Cant argue with success but 3WW to 1 lino + adding tin sounds a bit hard and rich to me for a 45 acp. I would have thought about a 1/1 WW with soft lead would be about right, but hay what do I know I am the 22 guy.
BIC/BS

[Slowpoke]

Slowpoke
Cant argue with success but 3WW to 1 lino + adding tin sounds a bit hard and rich to me for a 45 acp. I would have thought about a 1/1 WW with soft lead would be about right, but hay what do I know I am the 22 guy.
BIC/BS

If I cast a bullet thats the alloy I use, be it rifle or pistol, fast or slow. I stumbled upon that mix back in 90 -91 , i have no complaints. It even makes pretty nice 225438's and 415's.

Good luck

[13Echo]

Finally cast some bullets from my 45CM mould. The bullets are badly out of round. Running them through a .454 Lyman sizer die is actually difficult with part of the bullet showing heavy sizing with smearing of lead into the grease groove on opposite sides while the the rest of the bullet shows no sizing at all. The mould closed tightly and there was no finning and it cast easily after I got the hang of a 6banger. I'm hoping I just didn't close the mould properly and will try another session soon to see how it goes, but these bullets are going back into the pot. Any suggestions?

Jerry Liles