Appreciating the Medium Wheelers

[Ricochet]

In my younger days I was thoroughly infested with magnumitis. First short piece I ever got was a Super Blackhawk which officially belonged to my dad, of course, when I was 16, and what I mostly loaded up for it were full house Magnums. I always looked with a certain amount of disdain on the lower powered and smaller bore pieces. .44 Special was about as low as I thought one could go and be shooting a manly gun. :mrgreen:

About 28 years ago I bought a 1953-made 5" Colt Official Police, mechanically perfect with a slick tight action and pristine bore but with extensive holster wear, some crude rust removal with steel wool and 6 notches roughly carved in the right grip, at a price I couldn't resist. Never really cottoned to it much, though I shot it now and then. It was a plain vanilla .38 Special after all, and uglied up a bit to boot. Gave it to my wife, who never shot it much and never shoots anymore. (Poor health.) Got a notion to get that out yesterday, loaded up some Lyman wadcutters a little heavier than the midrange target loads (felt and sounded like old standard duty loads), and took it out along with my 1939 Tula 1895 Nagant loaded with unchecked Soupcans and just a little too much N100. (Sticky extraction, I'm going to cut it back.) I had a terrific time shooting those things, bouncing empty pop bottles around! Shot some double action and didn't do too badly, especially with that slick old Colt. (Harder with the heavy pull on the Nagant, but it's got a nice pause before the hammer lets go that you can use for double action slow fire.) When it got too easy bouncing them, I started shooting the tops off the bottles (I have one of those tops here on the desk with a hole made by the Nagant.) When it got too dark to see the thin blade sight on the Nagant and the .38 wadcutters were gone, I shot till it got dark with a Ruger Government Target .22 Mk. II. Just a great fun day!

I like that old Official Police a lot! The Nagant's a fun little piece, too!

The Magnums are still fun, and the big booming Walker replica I bought at the same time as the Official Police. But the little wheelers aren't going to sit around neglected now. :Fire:

(Actually, the Official Police isn't that little. It's built on the old .41 D.A. frame and is pretty stout.)

[theperfessor]

Ricochet -

I hear ya! I like the big boomers too but when I want to go de-stress and have simple, uncomplicated fun nothing beats shooting an old skinny barrel M10-5 that I picked up gently used for $225 several years ago. It shoots right where I aim it with 150-160 gr SWCs at factory velocity, isn't critical about powder, doesn't lead, has sights big enough to see clearly, and has a crisp, clean trigger pull in both SA and DA.

If I run out of .38s I just break out the M18-3 and a couple boxes of .22s - and I don't even have to take the empties home.

Let's me relax and focus on good technique and shoot cheap to boot.

[Ricochet]

Yeah, I noticed I was running low on .22s and picked up a brick of 550 Federals at the Wal-Mart last night when I got sent on a grocery run. Still under $12.

That little Ruger's great fun, too!

[Bret4207]

I'm right there with ya on the medium frames and medium loads. In fact I've had my eye on a 4" Official Police 38 Spec with a set of the old Franzite "Ivory" stocks on it for my oldest daughter. Change those stocks out to something a bit larger, (she's 5'10", not frail at all), and get her started shooting.

[theperfessor]

Whenever I take a newbie shooting I always start out with a .22 and then a .38 with mild loads.

[Ricochet]

Hey Bret, if you take those Franzite stocks off, I just might be interested in them.

[TCLouis]

how do you load for the Nagant, dies, brass etc?

I have one I bought 10 years ago or so and it has NEVER been fired!

Double action, Hey you must do special exercises, it has the heaviest double (or single for that matter) action trigger pull of any gun I have ever shot!

Oh the weather was perfect, fart from what they predicted.
Hey you have some really steep hills in the area.

I hated the drive up the Holston on 44. Some beautiful country in the area.

[Ricochet]

I've got pretty good finger strength. I used to ride a Panhead Harley. :mrgreen:

I bought one of the custom Lee die sets for the Nagant from, I think, Midway. Resizes Starline .32-20 brass to fit, but they're too short to seal the cylinder gap. (On first resizing, stop when the press effort goes up, pull out, relube and give it a second go, else the cases will stick.) It has .32-20 flaring and seating dies. Seat the boolit to an overall length of 1.5" and it'll be just about perfect. The cases aren't reduced much, so it's about like a .32-20 with the boolits seated a little deep. Look at .32-20 pistol or Cowboy Action data for a good starting point. I didn't have any for the Nitro 100 I had handy, figured it would load about the same as Bullseye, but N100 seems to be a bit hotter in this application.

Glad you had a nice trip, BTW! I love that area up on Holston Mountain. It's gotten bad when the young boys are out of school, though. They race on that road.

[9.3X62AL]

Sounds like a great day, Ricochet!

The Nagant case's taper and other critical dimensions are almost EXACTLY that of the 30 U.S. Carbine. I lubed the Starline-made Nagant brass generously for its first trip through the 30 Carbine sizer die, and after that first re-form things went a lot easier. I don't know if Starline is making Nagant brass presently--they suspended manufacture last year, and I don't know whether it was resumed.

I can keep the 35 yard dinger plates at Angeles Shooting Ranges dancing and clanging with my Nagant. Double-action is atrocious, but single-action isn't bad at all. Kind of a weird little cartridge, but usable and tractable. Marie loves the clonky little roller.

[Ricochet]

No, Starline has no Nagant brass and has no plans to reintroduce it in the near future. I've E-mailed them a couple of times in the past year. Got to make it from .32-20, or buy the imported ammo and reload it.

[Ricochet]

Hmmm, that Official Police reminds me, I need to hunt up the double cavity #358429 I have around somewhere...

[NoDakJak]

Good morning Ricochet, You are certainly right about shooting the medium bores. Now that I am older I seldom load full bore loads in the magnums. Probably my favorite load is the 357429 loaded in 38 Special cases. I met Elmer at a gun show in Portland many years ago and he recommened using 11.0 grains of 2400 behind the slug. I have shot many thousands of rounds of this load in both large frame 38's and 357's with great success. Very accurate load in my guns. Clocks at 1,042 fps in my six inch Colt 357. My neighbor borrowed a few rounds and found that they were very effective on both White Tails and Muleys. Since they are actually +P loads I dropped the load to 10.0 grains for use in small frame guns. Certainly makes shooting a Chiefs Special exciting. When shooting in the dark it leaves a spectacular fireball that is probly six to eight feet in length. Most of the powder seemed to burn in mid air so that probly kept the pressure down and kept me out of trouble. Now for a quote from an article that I penned several years ago.
It severely pains this old Elmer Keith adherent to admit that the little pea-shooting 32 S&W Long is not only fun but is also an excellent cartridge for the astute handloader. The teachings of Keith and somewhat later Jeff Cooper have been considered sacred to the average handgunner during my lifetime. The writings of these gents convinced several generations of shooters including myself that anything smaller than 44 caliber was almost worthless and possibly even un-American. Their specialities were the hunting of large game and self defense respectively and these scribes were considered the top pros in their fields. Indeed, their choices of firearms and cartridges ror these purposes cannot be faulted even today. There are many other facets to shooting handguns but the writings of these Gurus blinded many, perhaps even ost handgunners of my era to the usefulness and enjoyment to be gained by shooting smaller calibers. Neil

[Ricochet]

Yep, I'm an old Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper fan myself. Pretty much took everything those two wrote as Gospel.

I believe that 2400 load for the .38 Special or something very close to it was in an old Lyman manual I had. I wrote to them asking if they were sure, or was it a mistake? Never got a reply.
:mrgreen:

The Official Police was rated for 38/44 cartridges and was converted pretty much unchanged into the original Colt .357 Magnum, so I'm not worried about shooting it, but I figure I'll stick with the moderate loads now.

As for Starline Nagant brass, I just got this reply from the company today:

John,

I’m sorry but we won’t be manufacturing any 7.62 Nagant brass any time soon, maybe ever. Your best option will probably be to form our .32-20 Winchester brass into a short version of the Nagant.



Thank you,

Hunter Pilant
Media Relations/Technical Support
hunter@starlinebrass.com

[StrawHat]

Ricochet,

I also started with a SBH. And first with Keith loads and then finally backed them down to the 21 grain load recommended by Skeeter Skelton.

Next came a succession of S&W M29s until one day I was shooting with my Pop and he let's me shoot his old K frame 32-20.

I know what you mean about the medium calibers.

But don't neglect the large bore, medium power cartridges.

45 ACP and Long Colt.

44 Colt and Special.

All shoot a nice chunk of lead at just enough velocity to be taken seriously.

And the big chunk of lead make a hole you don't need your glasses to see from the firing line!

Keep shooting.

[Ricochet]

Hey, they're all great!

I love the old .45 Auto, too, except I hate hunting for cases on the ground!

[shooting on a shoestring]

Oh my, it looks like I can get to range this week and I have a couple of coffee cans loaded with 5.0 gr Bullseye, Lee 140 SWC in .357 cases that will get about 1000 fps out of my old Model 19, maybe a few will find their way into the new Blackhawk. Looks like a swinging good time for the clang and dueling tree.

Hmm, maybe I should bring along the old Model 60 and some .38s. Its short but I shoot it well, carried it today.

Yeah, then I suppose I should also exercise my SP101 and do my serious drills.

Not going to be much time left for the .45Colt this time. Oh well, maybe next time, unless the .357s call for an oncore.

[NoDakJak]

Oh yes! I like the 38 Special and shoot more of them as I get older. I dropped the 2400 load for small frame revolvers many years ago. I switched to Unique for most of my loads many years ago. Have lately switched to PB in the 44's and 45LC because of it's metering qualities and also because it is possibly the cleanest burning powder that I have used. Am thinking about trying it in the 38 Spcl. Ramshots, Zip is the powder to beat for accuracy in the 32 S&W Long and is also great in the 38. Matter of fact, there are so many powders available that I justwon't live long enough to try all the combinations. Ah well! That is what it is all about! Neil

[Bret4207]

Hey, they're all great!

I love the old .45 Auto, too, except I hate hunting for cases on the ground!


Thats why God and Messr's. Smith and Wesson invented moon clips and the S+W M1917!

[Ricochet]

Yeah, I've been looking somewhat lustfully at the reintroduced M1917 S&W has on their website. Of course when I look at those I also see the .44 Special Triple Lock. I'd like to have one of each! And a little shrouded hammer J-frame pocket .38...

When I look at those I notice they now have the little dinky revolvers in .357! I'll bet one of those is a handful with full house 125 grain Magnum loads!

[Bret4207]

Yeah, I've been looking somewhat lustfully at the reintroduced M1917 S&W has on their website. Of course when I look at those I also see the .44 Special Triple Lock. I'd like to have one of each! And a little shrouded hammer J-frame pocket .38...

When I look at those I notice they now have the little dinky revolvers in .357! I'll bet one of those is a handful with full house 125 grain Magnum loads!

You don't have a Body Guard?!?! Oh, you GOTTA get a Body Guard!:mrgreen:

[Ricochet]

Yeah, summer's almost here.

[FISH4BUGS]

....is a square butt Model 36 S&W with a 3" heavy barrel. I have had a series of them, carried one for many years, and fired thousands of rounds through them. Accurate as hell and pleasant to shoot.
....or a 3" Colt Detective Special.....take your pick.
But my all time favorite is my 1956 S&W 29 5 screw 44 magnum. I bought a shooter (no case or tools) and I DO shoot it!
Someday I woud love to have an M&P target in 32-20 to shoot the daylights out of.

[grumpy one]

Thats why God and Messr's. Smith and Wesson invented moon clips and the S+W M1917!

I'm not sure you are right about S&W inventing the moon clip. Moon clips appear to have been standard usage items with the 38 ACP version of the Webley-Fosbery Automatic Revolver, from 1902 onward. I personally haven't heard of S&W using them prior to the M1917, though I could be wrong.

Some info on the Webley-Fosbery:

http://www.cruffler.com/historic-january01.html
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1460742

[MT Gianni]

I have been down to one K frame for a few years now. I get by OK but still hate to think what I would do if I saw a K frame Round Butt 3" 357. Gianni

[Ricochet]

I've just been browsing around reading about 38/44s. Supposedly Elmer Keith (and Skeeter Skelton) loaded 13.5 gr. 2400 under #358429! :shock:

[Dale53]

Ricochet;
Last year I "accidentally" bought a 625-8 JM Special (4" barrel) and have been having a ton of fun. I guess you could say that I have rediscovered the .45 ACP Revolver. I have been a long time fan of the .45 ACP cartridge but am getting too old to bend over and retrieve the brass with any enjoyment whatsoever. The revolver saves ALL of that nonsense:mrgreen:.

Using the Saeco #68 SWC or the H&G #130 (I have both in four cavity moulds) I keep the gun fed with a minimum of effort. They both will shoot well under 1" at 25 yards from the Ransom Rest. I am currently using 4.1 Red Dot for a real pleasure load. It will also, from personal experience, work quite well as an edible small game load. On the other hand, as a defense gun, you can drive a 200 gr to 1000 fps without strain.

The "Medium" wheelers could be argued "That is where it's at"...

[BruceB]

I've just been browsing around reading about 38/44s. Supposedly Elmer Keith (and Skeeter Skelton) loaded 13.5 gr. 2400 under #358429! :shock:

This was not an unusual load.

It appears in Lyman handbooks of the day, generally with a notation that it was for "heavy-frame guns".

Being young, immortal, and of inquiring mind, I fired MANY of these 13.5/2400 .38 Specials in K-frame .38s, particularly in one "all-target" K-38 which I wish I still had (hammer, trigger, grips...all target-style). I used the 358156 bullet, and it was a very good and accurate load. The gun(s) suffered no apparent harm. As my "family" expanded to include some .357s, the hot .38/44-type loads were discontinued....but they DID work well, without any problems of poor case life, hard extraction or any other such ills. Also, as the odd J-frame and such arrived, I didn't want to accidentally stuff them with some of those stomper loads. That WOULD be too much of a good thing.

Remember that 2400 has changed, as well. Just how MUCH it has changed is a matter of much discussion and dispute, but it has indeed been modified to some degree. I would not recommend the old 13.5-grain recipe these days.

[xtimberman]

I've just been browsing around reading about 38/44s. Supposedly Elmer Keith (and Skeeter Skelton) loaded 13.5 gr. 2400 under #358429! :shock:

I've shot 1000s of 358429s + 12.0gr. 2400 in my S&W M-28 and haven't come up with a good reason to go up or down with that charge in that particular revolver. It's definitely a .38 Sp. +P round and maybe even +P+, but definitely below a full bore magnum round. In a .357 Mag. case, you can't crimp that bullet in the proper groove and chamber it in a M-28/27, so I've stayed with loading this revolver with .38 Sp. brass and my favorite long-nosed bullet of that caliber.

Those of you who have read Ed McGivern's book "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" may recall the chapter on long range revolver shooting. There are several old B&W photos of McGivern and others shooting at a man-sized target with a S&W .357 Magnum - at distances up to 600 yds! I had assumed that they were shooting the then-new .357 Magnum cartridge at that distance, but learned later that they were shooting the heavy .38 Special load Ricochet mentioned above - developed by E.K. It was more accurate than anything they had so far developed in the longer .357 case. Doug Wesson asked them to keep that little tidbit under wraps until he got shooters completely infected with .357 magnumitis!

xtm

[Bret4207]

I'm not sure you are right about S&W inventing the moon clip. Moon clips appear to have been standard usage items with the 38 ACP version of the Webley-Fosbery Automatic Revolver, from 1902 onward. I personally haven't heard of S&W using them prior to the M1917, though I could be wrong.

Some info on the Webley-Fosbery:

http://www.cruffler.com/historic-january01.html
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1460742



Holy crap! The Webley- Fosbery?!?! News to me, not having one I didn't know. FWIW I got my info from the myriad of books that stress S+W coming up with them. If Webley did first so be it.


That 12-13.5 2400 x 358156 load that Skeeter recommended got shot a lot in a small frame Colt with an alloy frame of the Cobra variety. Never had any problems but I wouldn't do it today.[smilie=1:

[Ricochet]

The only .38 I have around here is the aforementioned Colt Official Police, and I have yet to buy a .357. Got a .357 die set to load the Specials figuring I might one day, though. The O.P. is a pretty sturdy piece. I don't really have a need to hotrod it, though. If I need more power I can always get out the Super Blackhawk.

I've never loaded 2400 in anything but the .44 Magnum. Used to use 22 grains under a 240 grain SWC bullet and not think a thing about it, because Elmer said it was OK. Looks like that may be hot with current 2400. Never loaded Blue Dot in anything but the .45 Auto, and that because my old Speer manuals showed loads of Blue Dot giving velocities well above any other powder listed for the 200 grain "Flying Ashtray" hollowpoints I used to keep loaded in my Government Model. (I've gone back to old standard hardball factory loads, because they always work, and I expect they'll work well enough.) But I'm belatedly realizing that Blue Dot's a pretty good magnum pistol powder. Bet it'd work well for those 38/44 type loads, too.

I do think a .45 ACP revolver's a good idea! The full moon clips make it reloadable in a jiff. I've got the dies and components for it already, just as I do for .44 Special. I've always admired the S&W and Colt M1917s, but the originals have gotten way too expensive. S&W's got a repro of the 1917 available now, and I might have to take a hard look at that. Right now though, what I most need/want in the handgun line is a pocket pistol like a Bodyguard, or perhaps a little auto like a Makarov, PA-63 or CZ-82. Summer's coming in, after all.

[TCLouis]

is the ONLY powder that I have tested that met or exceeded the book velocity for EVERY load in every caliber that I have ever shot over a chronograph.

Using Seafires method it can provide some very interesting loads in several calibers I have tested it in.

[trickyasafox]

Richochet- I own both a pa-63 and a cz-82. If I could only have one, it'd be the PA-63. It is much lighter to carry, works great, and is just all around a nice pistol. The cz-82 is great too, but it doesn't carry as well.

I should know- my dad stole both of them from me to carry!

[xtimberman]

.....Blue Dot's a pretty good magnum pistol powder. Bet it'd work well for those 38/44 type loads, too.

It is and it does.

The #358429 + 7.8gr. BlueDot (~950fps) has been another favorite .38 Special load of mine for heavy frame revolvers. I haven't loaded and shot as many of these as I have +P 2400 loads, but this one seems to be an excellent and accurate +P load, too. Heavier charges of BlueDot than this seem to have an awful lot of muzzle flash, though.

xtm

[Ricochet]

Thanks!

I'll have to put off thinking about little pocket poppers for a while. I somewhat impulsively bought the Star Model B Russian refurb (German WWII service pistol) that came out in I.O.'s weekly flyer last night. I'm a sucker for Browning-style autoloaders. It is a medium caliber if not a wheeler. I am mellowing over the years. When I was reading all that Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper stuff I wouldn't have had a 9mm if you gave it to me!

(I'm still looking at that PA-63 in several of the recent sale flyers, though.)

[Three44s]

My two evil bottom feeders are the PA-63 in 9X18 Mak. and the CZ52 in 7.62X25.

Other than those ..... it's ALL round shooters.

As far as my favorite medium: A recent find on a blued Security Six (4")

It joins a SP101 (3")

Both of these are in .357 mag.

I wanted the Sec. Six mostly for the adjustable sights ....... other than having the heavier later barrel ..... I am most pleased with it!

But my real loves are the .4 .... something revolvers!

It's just that for chores ...... that Security Six sure totes nice!

Three 44s

[Ricochet]

I just got that Star Model B. Typical Russian refurbed Frankengun put together by Eli Whitney's method from piles of parts. Only functional issue seems to be that the safety won't go on when cocked without thumbing back the hammer. (The safety on these will go on when the hammer's down, preventing cocking past half cock.) Slide release can't be released with an empty magazine in place. I think that's "a feature, not a bug." Looking forward to trying it out at the range!

Guess I'll have to start loading 9mm Parabellum one of these days, as I now own 2.

[xtimberman]

Guess I'll have to start loading 9mm Parabellum one of these days, as I now own 2.

Until recently, 9mm was hardly worth reloading. I had dies, but didn't try too hard because I could buy trouble-free aluminum Blazer stuff with real FMJs for $2.99/box if I waited for a sale at Academy Sports! Now that it's $6.99/box on sale, I've gotten real good at squirting out high quality 9mms rounds on my RCBS Piggy-Back.

9mm Luger has gone from being a cartridge I avoided reloading to my favorite auto-pistol round to reload. Maybe it's that mid-bore thing.

xtm

[9.3X62AL]

The 9mm is a VERY user-friendly caliber to SHOOT. It can be a tempermental bee-otch to RELOAD FOR, though. With castings.......

1) Fatten the boolits. And the expander spud to correspond with that fattening.

2) Harden the metal.

3) Soften the lube.

4) PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO BOOLIT SEATING DEPTH/OVERALL LENGTH.

Make your first goal "just enough oomph to function reliably". After that, SLOWLY increase powder charges with your component combination until accuracy falls off--leading occurs--or your velocity threshold is reached. If I stay on deck during the reloading process and tend closely to navigation at the firing line, I can get accurate full power loads (125 grainers @ 1250 FPS) with a range of powders--231 to Blue Dot.

With plain-base castings, the 9 is CHEEP TO RUN.

[Ricochet]

Thanks for the 9mm loading tips!

Actually, a BIG reason I long avoided owning a 9mm is that I'd read warnings in loading manuals and elsewhere about it being a temperamental cartridge to load for. Pressures reportedly vary a great deal with different brands of brass and small differences in seating depth changing the internal case volume. And I've read more cries for help from new cast boolit shooters regarding problems loading 9mm than anything else, undoubtedly. That partly reflects the recent great popularity of 9s, but obviously indicates that they're not elementary to load for, either.

As for the Star, it's a shootin' Star! I love this pistol! Feels like a 1911 as you'd expect, a bit lighter (partly because the cartridges weigh half as much as .45s.) For my kind of short range informal bottle blasting, it drills 'em or bounces 'em every time. Makes the characteristic sharp loud pop of a 9mm, with very light recoil. PMP ball ammo blows lots of bright sparks out the muzzle. Empties fly just over my head and land close together right behind me, unless they bounce off my head and keep going. One 8 round magazine full landed within a 1 foot radius!

[Ricochet]

Oh yeah, the hammer bit my hand, too. Made me feel right at home! :mrgreen:

[Dale53]

I have shot my share of the big boomers and still somewhat enjoy them.

However, I much prefer the middleweights ( .45 ACP, .44 Special, etc) and I shoot a lot of .32's and .38's, also.

Anymore, I pretty much shoot for pleasure and the middleweights ARE pleasure.

Dale53

[Ricochet]

Yes, and they don't have to be loaded to the max. They're great fun with moderate loads.

Off topic on the bottom feeders again, I.O. Inc. is taking preorders today only at $199.95 for Russian TT-33 Tokarevs due to arrive June 1. I got on the list.

[leftiye]

Rick, Is that the Russian WWII emi auto ten shot rifle?

[Ricochet]

Nope. The 7.62x25mm autoloading pistol of simplified Browning pattern.

[Old Ironsights]

Now that I've got one, I think that if I didn't already have a 9-shot High Standard .22 I'd be looking for a 9-shot Tuarus .22 in Stainless.

Just too darn useful.

[Ricochet]

I think the old H&R 999 Sportsman Webley-style top break 9-shot .22 is awesome.

[Ricochet]

I've temporarily staved off my GAS (Gun Acquisition Syndrome) for a new pocket pistol by reminding myself that my Charter Bulldog .44 is one. Not the smallest, but it's actually pretty close to the Makarovs and such. I've been wearing it around the house, stuck down in a pocket bare, in a pocket holster, in an IWB holster, and in the most comfortable and inconspicuous way I've found so far, a pocket holster with a clip hooked over the edge of a waist pocket with it riding high and covered with a loose shirt tail. Can't always leave the shirt out, though.

I've been eyeballing that Armscor 206 .38 snubby clone of a Detective Special. Having recently acquired a "Rock Island Arsenal" M1911A1 made by them and being well impressed with its workmanship and materials, I'd expect that to be a good one. A little more compact than the Bulldog.

[MtGun44]

I got a real chuckle about your comment 'feature, not a bug'.

After many decades of working with lots of different operating systems
and software as mostly a user but sometimes a system admin, I have
a personal comment on software.

"Do you know the ONLY difference between a bug and a feature?"


A feature is in the documentation.

you can't tell by whether it pisses you off, ruins your work, takes forever
to workaround, the system locks up, etc.

Kinda like your can't drop the mag "feature". Probably in the owner's
manual, so it is a feature. :smile:

[Ricochet]

Oh yeah, there are plenty of well documented "features" of Microsoft Office, especially, that piss me off, interfere with my work, etc. They're bugs to me! Not limited to that suite of programs either, by any means!

[Old Ironsights]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/0011-1.gif

[Ricochet]

Yep, that's the Office I know.