Reforming .284Win. brass for the K-31; Lee "soupcan&quo

[Maven]

All, I told Waksupi (on the Aimoo site) that I adequately re-formed my new .284Win. brass by adjusting my FL die so it left ~1/16" of the neck unsized and that such would chamber in my rifle. Boy, was I ever wrong :oops:: You've got to adjust the FL die so that it makes firm contact with the shellholder; load and fireform it, FL resize it and then anneal it (You have to use the M-die of course.)

I did this very thing today, but found the accuracy with the Lee "soupcan" was less than stellar, probably because I haven't fired a long gun in over 6 weeks. The load I chose was 14gr. WC 820 + Win. LR primers with the Lee CB @ .309" & 2.42" OAL. This gave me essentially point of aim results @ 50 yds. and OK groups, the best 5 [shots] could be covered by a quarter. 100 yds. was out of the question given the amount of snow & ice on the range + the 6"-9" of new stuff Mother Nature gave us Weds. evening. Btw, said bullet groups very well @ 100 yds. with 16gr. -17gr. WC 820, but the point of impact is several inches higher. ...Maven

[waksupi]

Yup. Saw it right off.

[jh45gun]

Geez from I have read on other post they never went through all that? I was told set your die to touch the shell holder and turn a half a turn more. Thats all they had to do? Other folks said they loaded them mild and fireformed them but If I can form them in my press as I was told to I do, do you really need the other steps? As far as the annealing went I was told that you did not need to do that to new brass but did if it was fired. So what gives was I given bad info before or what? Jim

[Maven]

JH, You can try it both ways, but it's much easier to FL size them with the die making firm contact with the shellholder first. Even that isn't quite enough as I had to tap the bolt closed with a plastic hammer on most of the 50 [new] cases I had. The good news is that the fire-formed cases are virtually identical to the "real" 7.5 stuff except for their bases. :D ...Maven

[jh45gun]

JH, You can try it both ways, but it's much easier to FL size them with the die making firm contact with the shellholder first. Even that isn't quite enough as I had to tap the bolt closed with a plastic hammer on most of the 50 [new] cases I had. The good news is that the fire-formed cases are virtually identical to the "real" 7.5 stuff except for their bases. :D ...Maven

Thats why I was told you have to set it up so it goes past the normal setting. ( Touching the shell holder) The guy said I would feel it when I tried it. I guess I will not know until I try it.

[Maven]

JH, If you resize the wrong way as I did, and then reset your FL die, you will feel the neck & shoulder being reshaped. Fireforming will do the rest. ...Maven

[jh45gun]

Well I do not have the dies or the brass yet so I guess I will cross that bridge when I get to it. I ordered the Dies yesterday.

[armexman]

Maven and JH45, I had the pleasure of forming 284 WIN to swiss. I followed Pierre's instructions by turning the die 1/2 turn past full contact with the shellholder and all my cases chambered correctly. I fired these with pulled 173 FMJBT and 43 grns H414 and my groups at 100 yrds were low on the edge of the black and group of 5 were appx. 3-4 inches, I was aiming with the top of the post at 6'oclock on the bullseye. Loads with 48grns WC852slow were on the bull, but groups were 5 inches, it may have been my fault as I had fired 25 rounds by then and I was begining to hurt. I will post more particulars when I get Home.BTW awesome rifles I will be buying another 2 or 3 to go with the 3 I have.

[jh45gun]

Thanks Armexman for your reply. Have you shot this gun with any other reloads or factory to see what the gun will do? 5 inches seems a lot for these guns most shoot under 2 at a 100. But then it could be the loads or you as you said you were sore by then. I have not shot mine yet but plan on it as soon as I get some ammo loaded. Who knows I may not do any better with open sights and may have to go the scout route. Jim

[Bob S]

I posted this on the SRF earlier today:

Steven:

You should not anneal the 284 cases before you attempt to neck them up and form them. If you do, you may get a high percentage of crushed necks.

Lee dies should work well, as they come with a tapered expander that should open the neck up handily. (I have not used Lee in this cartridge, but I have heard from some that I trust that they work well, if you follow directions.)

You will have to adjust the die so that the die body hits the shell holder with the ram up, and then turn it in a small amount, say 1/8 turn to start. When you run the ram up (without a case), after it strikes the die, you push a little more, and the linkage will "cam over": it will "pop" and the handle will move a little more. This assures that you have taken all of the possble lost motion out of the mechanism, and the case is being sized to the minimum possble dimensions with that die, shell holder, and press. This what you want for case forming (it may not necessarily be what you want for routine reloading, but more on that later)

You will need a good quality case lubricant. I use Imperial sizing wax; Parashooter uses castor oil. You should also lubricate the inside of the neck. A dry lube like graphite or Motor Mica (Midway has both) will ease the force necessary to open up the neck. Since I lube the cases with my fingers, I just scrape my finger across the top of the neck, and that deposits enough lube there. My cases get tumbled before they get loaded, so there are no worries about contaminating the powder charge. If you don't tumble the cases, a dry lube as mentioned might be a better choice.

You should be prepared to expend some energy when running them into the die. You are not only opening the neck, but you are putting a serious taper on the body of the case that was not there, and you are setting the shoulder back. Also, the 284 Winchester brass is thick and hard. The level of effort will be significantly more than just resizing a fired case in the correct caliber.

After you resize your first case, put your rifle on "half safe" like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/Halfsafe.jpg

And drop that case into the chamber, and try to close the bolt using only your thumb and forefinger on the operating handle. If the bolt closes completely with no further effort, your die adjustment is ok, and you can continue to resize/reform the rest of your cases. If there is resistance when you try to close the bolt, turn the die into the press a smidgen more, and repeat the size/form/chamber process until the cases will chamber easily. If you have more than one rifle, you might want to check the case in all your rifles.

Occasionally when forming cases, you reach a point of no return where the cases won't chamber easily, and you have adjusted the die to the point where you can't cam the linkage over; or the linkage cams over, but it does not seem to be sizing the case any more. I have not experienced this with the 284 to 7.5 conversion, but I have with 30-06 to 8mm. It could be caused by the relative tolerances of the die/shell holder combination; or your press is springing too much, or it could be that the brass is springing back after leaving the die, just enough to keep the "new" shoulder from assuming an acceptable headspace dinmension. One thing to try in that case is to anneal the case necks after the first trip through the die, and then resize them again. The annealing decreases the yield point of the material a little past the neck, and it will not "spring back" as much, if at all.

Once you have gone through this process, you will have a supply of good strong cases that should last you many, many reloadings. Since the "forming" process reduces all of the case dimensions (except the neck, and that has been properly sized and expanded), there is no need to do a special "fireforming" load. You should check the length of the cases, but all of the few thousand I have done came out at about 2.180 - 2.185", which is about right. You can treat the cases as new 7.5 x 55 cases, load them accordingly, and go shoot. One thing to be aware of though, is that the reformed 284's are heavier than any 7.5 cases I have loaded (I have not checked GP-11 cases, since I don't shoot them much and don't reload them). That means the internal volume is smaller, and you should approach maximum loads with caution. Most data published in "recognized" manuals seems to be on the wimpy side, but a lot of data "published" by some internet pundits seems on the "hot" side.

Once you have formed your cases, you can use the chamber check procedure described above to help you set your resizing dies to size the case only enough to chamber on a particular rifle, or group of rifles. In that event, start with the die just touching the shell holder, do the size and check procedure, screwing the die in by littles until the cases just chamber with no resistence. If you do this, your cases will probably out-live you.

Have fun!

Resp'y,
Bob S.
P.S. Forgot to mention, in case you did not already know, 284 uses the same shell holder as 30-06 or 308.

[jh45gun]

Bob S. Thanks for the detailed info. ! As a side note about your comments about the 284 taking the same shell holder as the 308 The swiss cartridge 7.5x55 uses the same shell holder as the 30/30.

[Four Fingers of Death]

this shop in Sydney has plenty of commercial 7.62 Swiss ammo and some rifles. I thinkhe had brass as well.

email LawranceOrdnance@bigpond.com

be sue you spell it the same as written above. You guys spell things a little differently to us.

Cheers, Mick.

[drinks]

Doesn't Graf and Son still have 7.5 SR brass?
I got 200 new cases last year, at $28 a hundred.
Don

[C1PNR]

Doesn't Graf and Son still have 7.5 SR brass?
I got 200 new cases last year, at $28 a hundred.
Don
My best understanding is that they are currently out of stock in the Swiss brass.

Rumor has it they will have more in June or so this year. Maybe? by a different supplier. YGIAGAM!

[KCSO]

Graf's is currently out of Swiss and they told me that late May or June would bring in beaucoup brass. The did have Hornady loaded rounds in stock for about the same price as Norma Brass. Between the Graf's i stockpiled and the Berdan i converted to shotgun primers I am good to go for a LOOOONG time.

[jh45gun]

How do you convert berdan to shotgun primers???? That may be good to know some time for some really hard to find brass. Jim

[carpetman]

How do you convert Berdan to shotgun primers. I think the conversion formula is to multiply by .95????? Not much on metrics.

[jh45gun]

How do you convert Berdan to shotgun primers. I think the conversion formula is to multiply by .95????? Not much on metrics.


You lost me on that???????????? I meant how do you physically convert them.

[Bob S]

I did that for .43 Spanish before the drawn BELL brass was available. I had a bunch of UMC cases, drilled out the primer pocket (I forget the drill size), and counter-sunk it. The shotgun battery cups were seated sort of like on old Lee Loader, except I just used wooden bench top as the "seating" surface. I punched them out with a small screw driver blade. It worked well with the black powder loads I was using.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[KCSO]

I drilled out the base of the cases and used a reamer I made up from an old drill bit. The Machinests bedside Reader has the instruction for making these, what I call 1/2 reamers and for soft material or an occasional job they work good. Mine cuts the proper hole and also a countersink for the rim of the primer. The case will then hold the pressure of a 1600 fps load and I have gotten 5 or 6 reloads to a case with this set up. I discard when there is any sign of leakage. The down side seems to be that the hotter shotgun primers will give a little larger group than LP primers. But it has let me shoot Swiss and Lebel when there was no boxer brass available.

[jh45gun]

Thanks for the info I will keep it in mind. What size drill bit did you use for drilling out the case and what size for the reamer you made? Jim