Open Sight PB Low Success Rate VS Scoped Jacket Bullet High Success Rate

[DonMountain]

I have a dilemma with my boolet hunting for deer here on my soy bean farm in Mid-Missouri. In the past we have sustained a lot of deer damage due to the high deer population, so it didn't seem to be a problem when I lost a few deer using lead boolets in a range of 30 caliber antique military rifles using open sights. When I really needed to get deer for food, I could rely on taking a 338 Win Mag with jacketed bullets mounted with a 12 power scope. It provided me with 100% success. Or I could use a 356 Winchester also mounted with a 6 power scope shooting with jacketed bullets for a 100% success rate of deer kill. Lately I have been feeling kind of like it wasn't proper to be taking a non-scoped, boolet shooting rifle and risk loosing the wounded deer (which happened the other day again.) So, my question is, should I stick to just target shooting with the lead boolets and use the scoped, jacketed bullet shooting rifles for deer hunting? Or should I make a move to vary my lead boolet shooting rifles or techniques to improve my success rate with them? I have had better success shooting deer with a 45/70 but it was in close ranges in the woods and most of my shooting is at longer ranges out over the soy bean fields. I don't have molds for the 338 Win Mag or the 356 Winchester rifles since they are high pressure rounds and I didn't consider it effective to shoot low pressure lead boolet rounds through them.

[petroid]

Don't give up, just try and figure out what the issue is

If you are having trouble with the sights, fix it. Either get better sights or mount a scope.
If you are having trouble with the accuracy of the load, fix it. Your load must be accurate enough at the range you are shooting to make a good shot.
If you are having trouble ranging the game to make the shot, fix it. Cast bullet loads are often lower velocity and have more drop. Get a good rangefinder and know your load
If you are having trouble tracking a wounded animal, fix it. A 338 Win Mag might drop them on the spot, but a light blood trail will take some following.

A well placed cast bullet of the appropriate weight and velocity will do the job, the rest is up to you. Good Hunting

[Silvercreek Farmer]

The 338 or 356 would pretty easily make a fine deer round out to 150-200 yards or so without much trouble. Get a couple molds, clean the copper out of your barrels, and get to shooting. I guarantee they will be plenty effective. Lyman has load data for the 338 with the Lee 220, might be a good starting point.

[Wolfer]

I shoot the Lee 220 cast soft say about 50-50 in my 338 win mag. 24 gr of 2400 goes 1800 fps. I haven't really grouped this on paper. I just started shooting and adjusted the scope a little and it seem to hit wherever I'm aiming.

I took 3 deer this year with my 34 XCB using this same Lee boolit pushed to 2075 fps. I would rate terminal performance to be as good as factory 30-30, 7.65 Mauser, 308 win etc.

I believe it will compare very close to 35 rem or 358 win with cast. Keep in mind I have never killed a deer with these two calibers.

I believe part of the success is owed to the soft alloy I shoot since the Lee is a round nosed boolit. I definitely get expansion.154205154206

What your seeing is the exit holes two different deer.

Don if your interested in trying some of these boolits PM me your address and I'll mail you a few to try.

[Dan Cash]

A well placed cast bullet of the appropriate weight and velocity will do the job, the rest is up to you. Good Hunting

Amen to this. Get enough velocity and weight in your cal. .30 bullet (1800+) and put it where it needs putting.

[Friends call me Pac]

How far are you shooting? If you put the bullet were it counts you should have very few problems. Do you shoot the same distances at a known range to know your own limitations with whatever you shoot be it jacketed or lead?

[runfiverun]

I'd look that 356 over and go with it as a boolit slinger.
I use the 358 Winchester with a 250gr cast boolit running along at 2300+ fps, it however limits the rifle to 358 Winchester ranges.
if I had to make 250-300+ yd shots I too would switch out rifles and use the speed advantage jacketed offers.


on another note.
a 338 win mag for deer?
you must have some monster bucks around there,,, that's a ton bigger than my moose rifle.

[Win94ae]

You are simply shooting above and beyond your effective range, using those specific rifles/loads.

[Lonegun1894]

I would check and make sure you are capable of taking the shot with your chosen weapon, regardless of ammo or sighting system used. Deer aren't hard to kill, but a bad hit doesn't do the job regardless of what caliber you're using. I have killed plenty of them with .357s, .44s, .45 Colt, and .45 ACP, and hunt hogs with a .22LR, so your power levels aren't the problem with the old military rifles, your .338, or your .356. Accuracy/placement above all else is what gets the job done.

When I step up to a .30-30, .308, .30-06, .45-70, etc, I feel like I am using an artillery piece to hunt with.

[OnHoPr]

I have been deer hunting for over 40 years and have heard lots of stories and helped with tracking before this internet stuff. There is more of a chance even with a good breadbasket shot on a deer running with a 30 projectile at 2200 fps MUZZLE velocity no matter what range the hit is at than a 30 cal projectile at 3000 fps. There is more chance of losing that game if you hunt near the thick stuff and water. I know of a bunch of stories where deer have run more than they should have even with good shots, such as. An ole boy from Kantucky retired from GM shot a deer through the heart @ less than 50 yds (all mush) with a 742 308 with 180 gr Rems and the deer ran 200 yds or better. I have heard of plenty of stories with good shots in the ribs with factory 30-30 have run never to be found or maybe a couple of days later. The last few years at deer camp a neighboring camp a guy has shot 2 bucks with a 35 rem and factory at less than 50 yd and loss both of them. He didn't even go out deer hunting last year. All I can say IMO is that they are generally adequate. On those cable outdoor channels you see most of the deer run even with 7mm mags. Most of those shots are at game where the camera can get footage, cushy blinds, or shooting sticks. How many times do you see one of those shows where they are in cedar swamps, tag alder thickets, or trying to squeeze a shot at the 1/3 part of the deer just showing the boiler room at a 100 yds in sorta normal general woods. It is said in MI that "Yes, the 30-30 has probably killed more deer than any other cartridge, but on the other hand it has lost more deer than any other as well".

IMO I think with the ole woods calibers such as the 30-30, 32 special, 35 rem, and such from the 30 to the 375 cals that push their factory bullets under 2400 fps that the cast boolit properly cast and loaded at or near their peeks with accuracy are probably more lethal than factory ammo at their general ranges below 200 yds. But, that would take time and development which a lot of hunters have really no interest in. A couple of boxes ammo this year and can I hit a paper plate @ 50 yd and I sighted it in last year or was it the year before type of thing. They will have supposedly sighted in with some Rems 170 grainers 5 years ago that were sitting on the 4 corner general store shelf since the '80s then bought a couple of boxes Wins 170s from Dicks 3 years ago then bought a couple of boxes of Feds 170s for this years hunt.

So should all the weaponry or style of weaponry since the late 1800's be classified as unfit for deer hunting and go with a mandatory 338 ultra mag for minimum, probably not. Most cannot handle the 308 let alone the 06. So, it boils down to the individual and not having to track and putting game in the freezer at a high percentage shot rate and the guys at a camp that hasn't shot a deer in 5 seasons playing poker and drinking beer and BSin enjoying themselves telling stories with plenty of wipe.

[taco650]

Don't give up. Shot choice and knowing the limits of your equipment are very important. I'm 52 and am realizing that I NEED scope sights more than ever. Iron sights are just harder to use at further than 50 yards and the scope adds light in the forest. I realized this year that the old Leopold 4X on my 30-06, although 100% reliable, just doesn't gather as much light as a newer one with a larger objective.

On bullet choice, just work with your loads and know their limitations when hunting with them. My 30-06 doesn't shoot cast well so I chose to load some 150gr Hornady j-words at ~2700fps and popped a doe at 100 yds through the lungs. She ran about 30yds into the thick brush but left a blood trail a blind man wearing sunglasses could follow at night. The exit hole looked similar to those in the picks Wolfer posted above just more blood spray on the fur.

[jhalcott]

I always test my loads for accuracy and penetration at the distance they will be used. I use wet pack bundles to get some idea what to expect. After the testing is done, I shoot a few shots off hand to see if I am good enough to use the load.

[Digital Dan]

Never lost a deer or hog. Never had to track one shot with lead bullets, but have done so with a few jacketed bullet kills.

[M-Tecs]

I have never considered it acceptable to not recover any deer I shot. Out of a total out of apx 180 I have lost one with the bow and one with the rifle. The bow was the fist deer I shot. I was 12.


I I don't have molds for the 338 Win Mag or the 356 Winchester rifles since they are high pressure rounds and I didn't consider it effective to shoot low pressure lead boolet rounds through them.

Both the 338 Win Mag and the 356 Winchester are very effective cast bullet cartridges.

[mattd]

so it didn't seem to be a problem when I lost a few deer

Don't judge all of us Missourians by this statement. All the deer hunters I know are very ethical hunters.

[Lonegun1894]

Don't judge all of us Missourians by this statement. All the deer hunters I know are very ethical hunters.

Don't worry. I would bet everyone knows there's good and bad everywhere. I know a few bad ones here too, mostly I just try to remember their names so I know not to associate with them after they have proven that they refuse to change their ways--after several of us tried to take them under our wings and help them and teach them.

[Larry Gibson]

DonMountain

"lead boolets in a range of 30 caliber antique military rifles using open sights."

A little more detailed information on the bullets used, the alloy, the velocity, and the accuracy capability would help. Also what "antique military rifles" and what "open sights"?

Larry Gibson

[DonMountain]

DonMountain

"lead boolets in a range of 30 caliber antique military rifles using open sights."

A little more detailed information on the bullets used, the alloy, the velocity, and the accuracy capability would help. Also what "antique military rifles" and what "open sights"?

Larry Gibson

MAS MLE 36/51 (Brand new and unfired when I bought it 25 years ago and only lead boolets fired through it), converted, resized and trimmed WIN 6.5 x 55 brass to the MAS 7.5 x 53 shell size in Hornady full-length resizing dies, fire formed and then neck sized for the 30 caliber boolets. Loads contain 32.0 grains of H4895 powder, WLR primer and 190 Grain (Weighed after casting, gas checked and lubed with White Label Lube co. Xlox 2500 plus sized to 0.309" using an RCBS LAM-II) boolets cast out of Wheel Weights in an RCBS 30-180 SP GC mold. Bore of rifle slugs at 0.307". And I practice shooting at 100 yards with a 2" pattern with the open sights and bench resting. A little more of course when I am shooting offhand while deer hunting. This last deer I lost was shot at about 40 yards through the chest 2 inches behind the front leg and half way from top to bottom. After shooting it I went back into the kitchen for about 3/4 of an hour for some coffee and to let the deer lay down and die without chasing it off. My wife came out and we walked into the woods where it went following a heavy blood trail, and down through heavy brush and stickers for maybe 40 feet, and there the deer laid across the ravine from us about 50 feet away. I could see a big spot of blood on the side of its chest right where I aimed, and there was blood all over its nose as blood dripped from its mouth and\or nostrils. Its head was still up and it was looking back and forth, so we just stood there for another 20 minutes or so letting it bleed out and die. But my wife got tired of waiting and walked around the other side of the ravine and come in to it from the field there. When she got maybe 30 feet from the deer it got up and ran. We tracked it through heavy brush and stickers maybe 100 yards as the blood trail diminished until we couldn't see any trace of it. So me and my grandson walked around through the stickers and brush for 4 more hours and then figuring the deer had gotten out into the open fields and ran. So that's the full story of the lost deer and the rifle and load it was shot from. Last year I killed two deer with this rifle and same load at ranges up to 120 yards in the open fields.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the detailed information. Here's your problem;

"This last deer I lost was shot at about 40 yards through the chest 2 inches behind the front leg and half way from top to bottom."

The problem is not what you're shooting the deer with but where you are shooting them. That shot simply goes through the back lobes of the lungs and does little other damage. It takes a long time, as you discovered, for the deer to die and it can go a long ways before it does. Also, what bleeding it does mostly stays in the chest cavity with little running out to leave a blood trail.

I gave up a long time ago on the "shoot behind the leg" shot after losing a deer to a similar shot. I suggest you change your bullet placement. If you will just envision a large melon or soccer ball sitting low against the brisket between the legs. The heart, thickest portion of the lungs and all the main arteries and veins running in and out are in that area. Aim and shoot to put the bullet through the soccer ball regardless of the angle (exception; I don't take Texas heart shots). Any reasonable side or mildly raking shot will probably take at least one of the legs out also. If the deer goes anywhere (I've not had one go more than 30 - 40 yards with similar cast bullets of 30 caliber at similar velocity) it will bleed out quickly because of the area of damage and the bullet holes will be low enough for blood to drain out. Yes you will damage a little more meat but not enough to get concerned about. With such a cast bullet you can probably "eat right up to the hole" as Elmer used to say. Besides, losing a bit more meat is a lot better than losing all of it. That's my suggestion based on my own similar experience and what I did years ago (on similar advise) to improve on the quickness of a kill. I've killed a lot of deer since with cast bullets of .30/.31 and 8mm size w/o having lost any more.

Larry Gibson

[DonMountain]

Thanks for the detailed information. Here's your problem;

"This last deer I lost was shot at about 40 yards through the chest 2 inches behind the front leg and half way from top to bottom."

The problem is not what you're shooting the deer with but where you are shooting them. That shot simply goes through the back lobes of the lungs and does little other damage. It takes a long time, as you discovered, for the deer to die and it can go a long ways before it does. Also, what bleeding it does mostly stays in the chest cavity with little running out to leave a blood trail.

I gave up a long time ago on the "shoot behind the leg" shot after losing a deer to a similar shot. I suggest you change your bullet placement. If you will just envision a large melon or soccer ball sitting low against the brisket between the legs. The heart, thickest portion of the lungs and all the main arteries and veins running in and out are in that area. Aim and shoot to put the bullet through the soccer ball regardless of the angle (exception; I don't take Texas heart shots). Any reasonable side or mildly raking shot will probably take at least one of the legs out also. If the deer goes anywhere (I've not had one go more than 30 - 40 yards with similar cast bullets of 30 caliber at similar velocity) it will bleed out quickly because of the area of damage and the bullet holes will be low enough for blood to drain out. Yes you will damage a little more meat but not enough to get concerned about. With such a cast bullet you can probably "eat right up to the hole" as Elmer used to say. Besides, losing a bit more meat is a lot better than losing all of it. That's my suggestion based on my own similar experience and what I did years ago (on similar advise) to improve on the quickness of a kill. I've killed a lot of deer since with cast bullets of .30/.31 and 8mm size w/o having lost any more.

Larry Gibson

Well thank you Larry. The deer I shot was hit in exactly the same spot as the two deer in the above #4 pictures. So I guess others are probably having the same problems that I am having with lead boolets. And they are just not admitting to it? So, I guess I have 3 or 4 options then when I am presented with a side shot on a deer. #1) Use a 338 Win Mag with high speed loads with jacketed bullets and shoot them anywhere and rely on the shock of the high velocity, heavy, fragmenting bullet to completely pulverize the deer's internals to kill it on the spot, #2) Buy a lead boolet mold for one of my scoped rifles of larger caliber than the 30's I have been using so that I might more precisely place the boolet through the shoulder area to better hit it in the heart and break the front legs so it can't get up and run, #3) Drill and tap my pristine, like new, Remington 03-A3 for a scope and move my 30 caliber boolets along a little faster and have a higher degree of sighting precision for deer at the longer ranges that I need to shoot deer, or #4) do all of my deer hunting in the woods at closer ranges with either my 45/70 or 44 MAG mounted with a scope since the bigger boolets (320 grain in the 44 and 500 grain in the 45/70) seem to kill deer at any angle. I kind of like the #2 possibility of course. What do you guys think? Or are there other options?

[waksupi]

I don't know how I managed to kill as many deer as I have with 6.5 and .30 bore rifles with cast, and never have them go more than 30-40 yards. That is shooting them in the lungs, with a flat nosed bullet. Never lost one.
If you are shooting them through the lungs and they are getting away, you either have a poor bullet design, or just plain aren't hitting them where you think you are, if at all.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

...and there the deer laid across the ravine from us about 50 feet away. I could see a big spot of blood on the side of its chest right where I aimed, and there was blood all over its nose as blood dripped from its mouth and\or nostrils. Its head was still up and it was looking back and forth, so we just stood there for another 20 minutes or so letting it bleed out and die.

No shame in shooting a critter 2+ times if that is what it takes. No point letting it suffer if a follow up shot is an option. Like they say, done is better than perfect.