Tumble lubing

[KenH]

OK, I've been reading and it seems like I now know the answer, but I just wish to confirm a bit on lubing with Ben's Liquid Lube BLL, the 45-45-10 stuff, and even the ALL stuff. Back in the '70's I cast 'n shot thousands of boolits using the NRA Alox lube - GREAT stuff. Might not work for highest velocity, but was by far the most accurate of the lubes we used "back then". Just now getting back into casting/shooting again. Now I'm shooting mostly 45-70 and 50-70 (max of 1,000 fps or so), with some .357 loaded for light loads. All those years we filled the lube grooves full and sized with a Lyman 45 lube/sizer. It was my understanding part of the duty of the lube was to help prevent the lube grooves from collapsing from pressure.

Now after all that background, my question is about tumbling. I find myself trying to get the lube grooves to fill. I don't think that is required for tumbling lube. Am I understanding correctly a thin film is all that's required over the whole bullet? Or, at least the part of bullet that will contact barrel. "IF" this is true, then sizing "after" tumbling would be a no-no because this removes the lube film from the sized portion of boolit.

I hope to be shooting both a lube grooved bullet and a smooth sided bullet - the smooth sided bullet I could knurl a bit to allow more lube to fill - would this be good?

Thank you to all for comments and guidance,

Ken H>

[35 shooter]

Hi Ken

I use BLL as my tumble lube and shoot my 35 whelen @ 2200 fps. most of the time, but have shot up to 2600 fps. with no leading at all.

I use 1 thin coat then size. I then apply 3 thin coats and allow 2 hr. to dry between coats...I have used only 2 coats after sizing and it actually worked just as well.
There is no more build up in the grooves than on the rest of the boolit, so no to trying to fill the lube grooves...it would take a ton of BLL to do that and is not neccesary at all.
Very thin coats (no run off when drying on wax paper)
is all it takes!! My boolits hardly change color with 3 coats as i can only see a tinge of bronze here and there on them.

At the speeds your talking about shooting 1 to 2 coats should be plenty.
You will be surprised how well the BLL dries over night before loading...no stickiness and shoots with superb accuracy.

[Lead Fred]

A smoothed sided boolit is for paper patching, which is way better than any lubed boolit

[KenH]

Thanks for the info - I was wondering about sizing with the liquid lubes and tumbling. At this point it seems like I won't need to size my lube grooved bullets as the goal is 1 or 2 thousandths over groove diameter for cast bullets. Just a tad of bronze color huh? That's pretty thin - I've been trying to get more lube. OK, I'll try it.

Yep, that's how I got started on smooth bullets was paper patching, but darn it - I let my mold slip over bore diameter a bit when I was making on lathe, so I took it on out to just under groove diameter. "IF" the bullet is depending on the lube on sides of bullet rather than lube in grooves, seems like a smooth sided bullet would work good as it'd have more lube bearing surface to hold lube?

Hey, I don't know much, still too new at this - that's why I'm seeking guidance from ya'll fine knowledgeable folks on the forum.

Ken H>

[35 shooter]

No experience for me with a smooth side boolit, but i have used BLL on the 35xcb boolit, which has VERY shallow grooves, in my whelen at the same speeds i posted above...there was zero leading.

I think if i had a smooth boolit that was a thou. or 2 over bore and just "had" to try it lol, i'd load to some low speeds and shoot 3 to 5 shots and run a patch in to check for leading before going too far with it.

You might do a search here for "knurled rifle boolits"
on the search feature and see what has been tried?
Even though the lube grooves are no where near full, i would think they carry a bit of "extra" tl coating to pump out under pressure.

[sghart3578]

Before I sold my 45-70 I was shooting the Lee 340 gr and 405 bullets, sized and lubed with 3 light coats of BLL. I loaded them to 1200-1300 fps and had very good accuracy and zero leading.

[Toymaker]

154005 154006 As you can see, I'm using a pure lead bullet. I've found Ben's Red out performed his Liquid Lube. But I'm going to experiment with adding a little tin (30:1) and see what Liquid Lube does with a little harder bullet.

[KenH]

OK, I've finally getting around to responding to the posts - I read them during the day but had some things going on and just now getting time.

35: That is my plan - I've got 5 smooth sided (429 grain) loaded now with 16 grains of IMR 4759 and we'll see how they do. I've also got 5 of the same bullet that's PC'd with HF red powder to test. I've also got 5 rounds that are smooth sided and PC'd loaded for a 50-70. Both smooth sided are 2 or 3 thou over bore.

sghart: you mention 3 coats of BLL, did you size between coats? size before? size after BBL tumbling?

Toymaker: What distance? If 100 yds that's some shooting!! I see you're shooting a rolling block - that's what I'm looking for to make my "best" rifle with - I just got a new E.R.Shaw 45-70 barrel in today. I've plans to match it up with a rolling block action. How did you use the Ben's Red lube - pan lube? Lube/sizer? I've got a lb of it and plan to test it some. I do have a question, in the image you mention Starline brass trimmed to 2.095", 7.795 ml H2O - is that the volume of case in water? I was thinking the 45-70 case was around 79ml water.

A great big THANK YOU to all for the comments and sharing of knowledge.

Ken H>

[35 shooter]

KenH i hope you report back on the results with your smooth side boolits.
I for one would be very interested in how that works out.

Good luck with both BLL and Ben's Red...both are great lubes!

[KenH]

I will - hopefully I'll get a chance to burn some powder tomorrow. This being Thanksgiving week I'm sorta committed to "family" doings, so not sure how much time I'll have. I've got a shooting table setup at 50 yds so that gives me a steady place to shoot from.

Ken H>

[Toymaker]

KenH
That was 100 yards, off the bench and through the chrony. I was testing velocity and groups. Heilman ladder sight, Hadley disk and post insert in a Lyman hooded front sight (with level and skylight).

I run the bullets through a sizer with a .459 die which barely rubs the sides and lube them while they're down. I tried Ben's Red with black powder (Goex) also. At first results were promising but ultimately it didn't work so I went back to Darr's lube. One of the long range muzzle loader shooters gave me a formula I've yet to try.

The rifle has a long chamber so I want my cases a little longer that recommended and the OAL is longer too. Yes, that's volume of water. I think 79 ml of water would overflow a 50 case, or come close!

Christmas came early with a Shaw barrel, eh? What's the twist? What action are you thinking of pairing it with?
Sounds like you've got a nice one planned. Pick some ugly wood for the stock so no one pays you any attention until you post your scores. :bigsmyl2:

[KenH]

Well shucks! It just clicked, 79 ml of water would be sorta on the wild side for sure. I was thinking grains!

I've got a couple of Swedish 12.7X44 Rolling blocks with poor bores that I will use the best looking Rolling Block action for the Shaw barrel. The barrel is 22 twist, the only other choice was a 14 twist which seems a tad fast for cast bullets.

Here's the piece of wood I plan to use. It's been back in storage for almost 40 yrs so is well cured. It's just wet with water to show grain.

154241

This is going to be slow go, I've got a bit of learning to do as I progress with the build.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Ken H>

[Ricochet]

That's a beautiful piece of wood!

[Toymaker]

That is a very pretty piece of wood. There enough straight grain in the wrist area to take the recoil? Beautiful figure.

Mobile, eh? Went to college in Alabama. My roommate was from Mobile.

[KenH]

Thank ya'll for the nice comments on the wood - I'm sorta proud of it myself.

I "think" there's enough straight grain in wrist area for recoil, but to be sure I figured I'd counter bore a rod with epoxy to help. I KNOW it will handle any recoil I'll be loading for - after all, this is for a Black Powder action. While I'm sure the Shaw barrel along with the Rolling Block action will handle more pressure than the original BP barrel/action would, it will still be stamped "black powder only" for anyone who winds up with rifle years down the road. I'm at the age when I have started looking at how my heirs will handle some of my stuff.

Ken H>