new to BP, just looking for some input

[wolfdog]

I want to get started with BP, no season here but we do have several "primative only" areas. My goal honestly is to have a rifle that's wood, steel and brass with some nice color case hardening. This is what I'm looking at to start, mostly wanting to do some deer hunting. http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Traditions-Hawken-Woodsman-.50cal-Black-Powder-Rifle/productDetail/Muzzleloaders/prod9999012505/cat100008

I would like to cast the lee 50 cal hollow base mini bullet, it just looks mean. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/516446/lee-1-cavity-modern-minie-ball-bullet-mold-500-354m-500-diameter-354-grain I have access to pyrodex ffg and fffg locally. I believe I should cast these from lead not ww alloy but I have been told if I change to round balls, I can go with ww alloy or lead. I read the sticky on the basics, just wondering if there's anything I'm thinking here that my be wrong, anyone have input for a new guy?

[rodwha]

Nothing wrong with anything you mentioned, though you may prefer 3F over 2, and you may prefer a different powder.

Ive used Pyrodex and didn't care for the fouling as it was kind of sticky-like. I prefer Triple 7 or Olde Eynsford powders, though part of it is due to higher energy levels since I also use them in my pistols too and don't want to carry or stock a bunch of powders.

Definately pure lead for a conical whereas it's not quite as big of a deal with a ball, though pure is still preferable as it will expand a bit easier.

What kind of lube are you considering? I like Gatofeo's #1 lube which is a very old recipe had for outside lubricated bullets during the beginning of the cartridge era.

You may also want to compare it to a Lyman Trade Rifle.

[mooman76]

Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it for starters. If you can hook up with someone in your area to help you out, that would be easiest. An RB will do the job for hunting and be easier for starting out. You are correct, soft lead for the mini and a little harder will work for RBs but soft preferable.

[wolfdog]

I planned on using LLA and tumble lubing the bullet. Nothing fancy. Noone around shoots BP as there's no season here, few casters, few reloaders, I'm most self taught on all of this. I was planning to just tumble lube in LLA/min spirits, nothing fancy. The lyman also looks nice, any real diff between the two?

[fouronesix]

LLA lube could work OK but you might have to swab between shots?? If you have to do that, learn how to swab properly or you run the risk of hang-fire or mis-fire. I'd consider something like smearing Crisco on the bullet in lieu of using LLA. That might allow more than one or two shots without swabbing…. depending on bore size relative to bullet size. My experience leads me to believe the combination of Pyrodex and LLA might cause some pretty stiff fouling and make for hard subsequent loading, especially if the bullet is close to bore diameter. Also, IMO, real BP is better than the subs and pure lead is better than all but the softest alloys.

That Lee Minié is a funky design that usually works pretty well- kind of a Minié wadcutter :) No problem with penetration- so accuracy and shot placement are everything for hunting with that type bullet. And you really don't have to use heavy charges for the Miniés or conicals either. I'd start at 45-50 grs BP volume equivalent of the sub if you want to use a sub or 45-50 grs of BP.

Most subs are corrosive just like BP, so study up on best cleaning and oiling.

You say, "The lyman also looks nice….". Not sure what you are talking about.

[wolfdog]

Someone brought up the lyman plains rifle, it also looks like a nice option, though based on locks only, I like the Hawken a bit more.

[mooman76]

You might be able to p/u a good used one for cheap but they are getting harder to come by with fewer companies manufacturing them so less good used cheap sidelocks around but that depends allot on the area you are in.

[fouronesix]

Got it. While that general design dates to the mid-1800s, beginning about the late 60s it's iteration was re-introduced by T/C under the logo "Hawken". Several companies, most or all foreign except T/C, followed and have produced very similar rifles since then. That design is of good proportion and weight in 50 and 54 cal and the 48" twist has been common to many of those. It has been a very popular, traditional type muzzleloader. In 50 cal the 48" twist can shoot conicals and Miniés very well. That rifle should do well if you give it a chance and stay with it.

[oldracer]

You don't mention where you live but I would hope there might be a store or shop near by so you can handle one of the Hawken rifles to see how they feel. Most of the Hawken copies made now shoot fairly well but you'll need to get used to it and find out how it reacts to different powder loads, ball diameters, patch thicknesses, lubes and weather you have to wipe between shots. Some shoot fine all the way to 200 yards with even round balls and others max out at 50 yards. There are those who decide a Hawken is not what they want and go with a Kentucky type long rifle? We have some of our match shooters who never touch a gun less than 5 feet long and others who shoot a cut down saddle versions of Hawkens so anything will work.

I would suggest getting a 50 cal as you have noted and unless you have a desire to mix up different calibers, keep all the rifles 50 cal that way the balls and such don't get mixed up. We have some of our match shooters do that and except for a 58 caliber under hammer, all my round ball guns are 50 cal so no mixing of shooting items.

[rodwha]

The Lyman Trade Rifle (not the Great Plains styles) has the same barrel length and is quite similar.

I have a Lyman Deerstalker and like it quite a bit. Shorter barrel and with a recoil pad (not exactly traditional). But I was after something light and handy for creeping around with.

[swathdiver]

Also consider the Pedersoli Traditional Hawken. For $30 more, one gets a much nicer rifle.

Stick with real black powder. You can order as little as 3lbs, have it shipped to your door from Grafs, for about the same price as those fake and nasty substitutes.

Round ball is all you need to take deer, so spend your time casting and working up a load in lieu of the more complex workup of some conical.

Consider the .54 caliber. They deliver more punch and are lighter when compared to the same product in the smaller caliber and they balance or hold the sights better.

You're an excellent candidate for Dutch Schoultz's "The System". It will be the best $20 you ever spend on the shooting sports and should be your first purchase.

[rodwha]

Also consider the Pedersoli Traditional Hawken. For $30 more, one gets a much nicer rifle.

Stick with real black powder. You can order as little as 3lbs, have it shipped to your door from Grafs, for about the same price as those fake and nasty substitutes.

Round ball is all you need to take deer, so spend your time casting and working up a load in lieu of the more complex workup of some conical.

Consider the .54 caliber. They deliver more punch and are lighter when compared to the same product in the smaller caliber and they balance or hold the sights better.

You're an excellent candidate for Dutch Schoultz's "The System". It will be the best $20 you ever spend on the shooting sports and should be your first purchase.

Just $30 more? I'd take a Pedersoli over a Traditions especially if the cost is similar!

Knowing what I know now I'd have likely bought a .54 over the .50 I did.

[swathdiver]

Just $30 more?

At Cabela's, yep.

[rfd]

also do consider that all of the traditions sidelocks have "sealed breech plugs", which means you can't remove the breech plug without destroying the barrel. maybe there will never be a need for that, but at least it's good to know.

though i've had two traditions, i'd take a pedersoli or lyman over a traditions any day (and i've had some of each of those, too), just better quality overall and smarter builds.

[wolfdog]

You have a very valid point there. I've heard that you can cut strips of pillow ticking and soak it in any of various lubes, carry a patch knife and just cut as you load from your "possibles bag". I happen to have some 50/50 paraffin wax/lithium grease would that make an ok patch lube? I am looking at the lyman and pedersoli currently if they are a better built gun. In my price range I can see 1:48 twist is standard. I hear that it shoots both bullet type loads (REAL or mini ball) as well as PRB. But I also hear it shoots them both "equally poorly" is this something I should be worried about? I would like to stay with round balls if I can, the mini bullet sounds fun, but I don't have access to pure lead, I'm under the impression that a round ball cast out of just about anything with a good patch is going to shoot well. Someone mentioned that one could shoot a "ball bearing" accurately out of these guns. I'm hoping WW alloy will be usable?

[flyingmonkey35]

I shoot real bp out of tradintions .

I cut me own wads from pillow tickinlking and use a black powdeder solvent for lubing the patch's. ( damp) not soaking wet.

Every time you ram the bullet it cleans the barrel.

U can also go with a plastic wad for the more high power shots. But not needed.


Best advice is find a load that works with your gun and bullet type. Then zero in the gun with that load.

Then enjoy

[rodwha]

I've yet to work on an accurate load for PRBs as I had been just breakin in my barrel with 200 shots. At 50 yds and with poor eyesight my groups were around 3", but with the few REALs I shot without working on a load were nearly touching at the same distance. I'd say the 1:48" twist shoots that conical quite well!

You can try the recycle centers for pure lead. I bought 80-something pounds of reclaimed piping for $1/lb. Now that I live near Austin I cannot find a center willing to sell it so I've looked online and been directed to RotoMetals.

You have to be careful with wheel weights and newer ones generally are zinc and not lead.

Theres a fellow on another forum who has tested brass balls and has taken deer.

[wolfdog]

I've been casting WWs for a few years now, no zink issues yet. So it's been going pretty well. I'm kinda looking hard at the lyman great plains rifle as well, I looks quite nice and that 1:66 twist and no brass is pretty sweet. Looks like very nice wood too. Any huge advantage of .54 over .50 for deer/elk hunting and mainly round ball use?

[rfd]

pure lead only, for my muzzle loaders as i would never use any alloyed lead bullets because i believe they're far too hard and can/will fragment and/or bounce back when hitting hard objects (gongs!). real bp only, too - no subs for flintlocks. for patch lube it's either a dry lubed ballistol, or mutton tallow or just plain spit. now these are just me and my personal opinions and to each their own, as it should be.

[rodwha]

From the few who do use a .50 with PRBs for large game such as elk get really close, as in within 50 yds.

Many feel a .54 with a PRB is minimal for elk.

I figured I'd use a 320 grn REAL from my .50 given the opportunity for something large like that.

[wolfdog]

Hm..well I'm looking much harder at lyman now, I really like the great plains rifle. Love the black wood and color case hardening, the 1:66 twist should be great for prb. Still not sold on 50 vs 54..I'm very much a minimalist, deer hunt with a .243, cast bullets in a 35 and 357 mag using hard cast wadcutters, I fish with Ultra light, and hunt with a 50lbs bow. On a side note, I was watching a guy shoot some conicals in his ML, before he loaded the bullet, he pushed it into a tube to lube it. Anyone have any idea on what that tube was? Looked kinda simple and effective I liked the idea.

[triggerhappy243]

that was t/c bore butter and a lube tube. bore butter is still available, the luber.... not so much ebay maybe. as far as cal. goes the 54 dia. ball is bigger in dia. and heavier. I will let the veteran lyman ball shooters pick up at this point.

[wolfdog]

So any advice on percussion vs flint lock. I'm thinking Lyman GPR now, love the black on dark wood look. I'm not familiar with fancy cleaning procedures for BP, and I'm not fond of this idea of 6.99/100 for caps if I can get a flint to last a while. That said, I'm reading on having to poke holes in the powder from the flash pan end to allow for ignition, feathers in flash holes walking in, frizzens that wear out, and a lot of real difficulty with flinters, others say prime with what you shoot, don't use pyrodex, get a lead flint holder and a decent gun (like the gpr) and they are cheaper to shoot and worry free..opinions?

[rfd]

flint vs cap - there is no versus, it's all good, use what makes ya most happiest and fits your gunning requirements.

you have much to learn and you ask some good, honest questions. you will get lots of answers by well meaning folks, but you won't really know what answers are best for you, particularly via a public forum as some folks have meaningful agendas. so i'd suggest to first bone up by reading lots by qualified authors ... and then, perhaps if feasible, seek qualified local one-on-one help via a range or club.

[wolfdog]

lol it is all good, I'm kinda a self starter, no real bp shooters I know, but I did the same with reloading and casting as well. I've been reading up and watching vids, I'm just kinda curious about people hunting with flintlocks and personal exp. I will be range shooting, but the goal here is a hunting arm. Though I love a challenge, I dislike something that works against me. Seems the flint requires less stuff I have to buy, only BP, the rest I can make myself, I would buy flints, but making my own sounds fun too. But if they missfire or don't work well in snow or the frizzen wears out every 200 shots, it would be better in the long run for me to do percussion. I know some steel is lost on each spark, flints may last 60 shots, but how long before the frizzen gives out? I'm kinda sold on prb at this point for ease of casting, won't have to mess with alloy type. I'm mostly just sticking out feelers, the 1:60 twist in the GPR seems good for round, now I'm kicking around cal and ignition system. Eventually I'll get a basic possibles bag going and throw lead and be able to fine tune, but I'm looking for the best jumping off point. I'm not a fan of "starter guns" and then moving up, I would rather ask the questions first and start with something nice.

[fouronesix]

If you are flirting with getting a flintlock, you'll find out about flintlocks soon enough. I love my flintlocks but they are not caplocks! :)

Proper cleaning of muzzleloaders is very simple (IMO easier than high power jacketed bullet shooters) but it must be done right. Or as above, you'll find out soon enough.

[triggerhappy243]

$6.99/100 caps????????????? RAPE! glad I bought what i did when i did. fell into a sale.

[triggerhappy243]

cap vs flint? I shoot caplock... only because it is much more simple and weather friendly. (wind and rain)??? 50 vs 54? The deer will never know the difference.

[wolfdog]

I just don't want to damage a nice gun to find anything out. So I'm asking a bunch of questions before I do something silly.

[wolfdog]

$6.99/100 caps????????????? RAPE! glad I bought what i did when i did. fell into a sale.
Lol it is what it is and we all have to start somewhere, prices will never come down. I'm just want to poke a half inch hole through a deer with a bit of class.

[rodwha]

A flintlock has more issues but makes it more worthwhile I suppose. There's more to go wrong especially if it's windy or wet.

I've not worked with a flintlock but want one now. Too much reading on traditional forums I guess, but I'd likely still hunt with a caplock.

There are many grades of flint with some not being very good.

[mooman76]

Like others are pointing out flint has more of a learning curve and takes more to get used to. Some people catch on to it quick and some don't and then again some never do and end up getting discouraged. Just my opinion but I'd start out with a caplock because it's simpler to get started. $6.99 may seem like allot but it's not like regular guns. You don't shoot near as much in an outing as you do with ready made cartridge guns. If I shoot 30 or more in an outing, I am shooting allot. If you get into the sport and really like it, you will more than like buy more guns and you can get a flinter too. I own better than a dozen and a couple are flint but I still haven't gotten into flint yet. I just want to wait until I have more time to shoot and concentrate on it.

[rfd]

yes, there's a bit more to a flintlock than a caplock, but not as much as you'd think. if yer mostly into hunting, and the aesthetics of a traditional muzzle loader are a lower priority than bringing home the venison, a caplock would probably be the better choice for a first ml.

[lobogunleather]

My muzzle-loading rifle is about 150 years old, which is about 85 years older than I am. It is an original Pennsylvania sporting rifle, .40 caliber, half-stock in walnut, octagon-to-round barrel, Golcher percussion lock, double set triggers, German silver stock mountings (buttplate, patchbox, trigger guard, escutcheons), pewter nose cap. All original and in perfect working order. Bore remains in very good condition with sharp defined rifling and little corrosion or pitting, indicating little use and good storage over the past 1-1/2 centuries. Haven
't measured the twist rate, but estimate it at about 1-in-60" or so. Weight is about 6 lbs., overall length about 44". In appearance it might be mistaken for a mini-Hawken, being of the Pennsylvania-German school of gunmaking.

I shoot pure lead round balls with all cotton patches lubed with common cooking oil (Crisco, Wesson, whatever you have in your kitchen cabinet will work as well as anything someone might try to sell you for the purpose). Fffg powder in moderate charges (mine seems to like 40 grains, measured not weighed, although 60-65 grains can be used as well). Any day of any week the rifle will put 10 consecutive shots on a 9" paper plate at 100 yards, usually grouping no more than 4" or so.

All I can contribute is that there is no reason to over-think a lot of this stuff. The old timers worked out just about everything long before we were born, and nothing has really changed all that much. Pure lead expands far more readily on firing, thus compressing the patch and sealing the bore. The vegetable oil patch lubricant does everything any of the black powder accessory makers claim, at very little cost, and cleaning after firing is a breeze.

Nothing is more effective on game animals than a pure lead ball at modest velocities (within sensible range limitations). As with any other firearm, shot placement makes more difference than huge amounts of power or kinetic energy. Round balls of any reasonable hunting caliber will almost always completely penetrate deer-size game completely with a side shot, maybe less so on a quartering angle, but you will seldom recover a ball inside the critter in any case.

Just about any of the quality reproductions in .45, .50, or .54 caliber are more than adequate for most North American game animals. There is no reason to push the outer edges of the performance envelope, just stick with what has been proven to work very well for hundreds of years and limit yourself to shots that come within reasonable ranges and under favorable conditions.

Best regards.

[rfd]

very well said, lobogunleather.

[SSGOldfart]

Now here's a post that should be a sticky excellent post lobogunleather

[Lead Fred]

I love these posts of the clueless telling the clueless what to buy.

When discussing third world production guns, they are all junk, so buy the cheapest, and save your money for a real BP rifle.
Not some not historically incorrect pile of trouble.

Flinters are hands down better than cap guns. I live here in the Pacific North WET. My flinter has gone off every time in the fall wet nasy windy weather. Go to ANY Rondy and count the misfires.

This is a Mini:

154276

This is a Minie'

154277

That rifle you want is 1/48 twist, a better twist for boolits is 1/28. 1/48 is a half *** in between twist.

Lube & cleaning products:

Thompson Center's 1000+ products is the first and only thing a flat lander should use
Until he gets wise and gets the formula for the home made version from the flintlock forums.

As far as caliber, 50 is the best all around caliber, and 3f is preferred over 2f.

Just remember, your first first will be a low end junker cap gun.
Your second will be a kit flinter, so save your bucks for your next gun

[rodwha]

Got to love the love there Lead Fred. Seems you should have posted in the thread about extreme biases...

[wolfdog]

I love these posts of the clueless telling the clueless what to buy.

When discussing third world production guns, they are all junk, so buy the cheapest, and save your money for a real BP rifle.
Not some not historically incorrect pile of trouble.

Flinters are hands down better than cap guns. I live here in the Pacific North WET. My flinter has gone off every time in the fall wet nasy windy weather. Go to ANY Rondy and count the misfires.

This is a Mini:

154276

This is a Minie'

154277

That rifle you want is 1/48 twist, a better twist for boolits is 1/28. 1/48 is a half *** in between twist.

Lube & cleaning products:

Thompson Center's 1000+ products is the first and only thing a flat lander should use
Until he gets wise and gets the formula for the home made version from the flintlock forums.

As far as caliber, 50 is the best all around caliber, and 3f is preferred over 2f.

Just remember, your first first will be a low end junker cap gun.
Your second will be a kit flinter, so save your bucks for your next gun
Hm..I'm actually looking hard at the great plains rifle by lyman at this point, 1:60 twist, I'm thinking 54 cal, flinter. My mind isn't made up yet..but that's where I'm leaning right now. I'm thinking that's a bit nicer than a "cap gun" least I hope so.

[rfd]

these are my personal opinions concerning muzzle loaders and those wishing to enter the ml game for the first time ...

lyman's ml offerings are from invest arms, italy, and they are ALL an excellent value for a first ml. they all work very well IF the operator understands how to care and feed them properly - but this is also very true for ANY ml, even those $2k ones.

the traditions, cva's and some others are of spanish origin - i've tested out more than a few, some in kit form, and imho they are of lesser overall value and reliability than the lyman family, and can be frustrating at times with regards to maintenance and reliability. but if one persists, they can be made to work at least "ok".

for the most part, NONE of the above ml rifles will be in the league of a well built ml assembled by an independent "gunsmith", of which there are many of these folks, but most do not "advertise", research is required on the ml boards to find them within their classifieds. most of these cobbled rifles will be in the lower $1k to past the $2k price range. for a newbie to drop that kinda change on an ml they're still not sure about is kinda silly, unless their pockets are way deep and jingling loud. in that former case, look to a used ml (with help from someone who really knows these guns) or visit a lyman ml vendor and be done with it.

i prefer a good fintlock in both rifle and fowler formats, though i've had more than a few caplock rifles. there is no question in my old mind that caplocks are easier to achieve good ignition under all conditions than flintlocks, for a beginner to ml's. this doesn't mean that caplocks are better than flintlocks, nor vice-versa. there is much to consider, rationalize wisely.

[fouronesix]

rfd- that's a pretty good summary. I would add both Pedersoli and Uberti to the list of good quality Italian imports. But I don't know if Uberti is currently making any MLs.

wolfdog- patience is a virtue when shopping for your first muzzleloader, but still no guarantees you will be happy with any decision- as with anything else. There are simply too many opinions out here in the www who sing like a shhlickk used car salesman (if you know what I mean). "Grain of salt" and use your best judgement.

If I were in your shoes I wouldn't overlook the used market- local stores, gun shows, local classifieds, internet sites, forum swap and sell sections, word of mouth, etc. Basic used muzzleloaders take a huge depreciation hit across the board (so can be found for very reasonable $). Just a matter of finding them then determining if the previous owner(s) knew how to take care of them. One oops by one owner over the life of the muzzleloader (most will date from the rebirth in ML interest beginning in the late 60s up to now) will render the bore severely damaged by corrosion. So if shopping for used, ask the tough questions about bore condition, or if in person, get one of those little drop-in bore lights so you can inspect the bore yourself. good luck!

[rfd]

imho, pedersoli is top of the italian replica heap, and then chiappa/amscor and invest arms. uberti does make some quite good cap'n'ball revolvers, and perhaps ml's too.

used is a good to great way to go, but you must know both what yer looking for and looking at, and that usually means getting input from someone who truly knows good stuff about ml's and the current production market.

one key to consider is the breech plug. a true vintage traditional 18th/19th century replica will typically have a full flat faced breech plug. i want to be able to remove it for both inspection and the typical dry ball situation that will happen. most, if not all of these production replicas use a "patent breech" - there is a "tunnel" or recessed hole/channel/dog leg behind or to the side of the breech plug's face. if only the breech face is cleaned/scraped, the tunnel recess will rust/corrode - it needs cleaning, usually with a .22 brush on the jag end of the rod. just something to be aware of and typically overlooked. i bought a used pedi .45 kentucky model and while the breech and chamber were in good shape, the patent hole was a rat's nest of rust.

yes indeed - good luck!

http://i.imgur.com/2cbrdOF.png

http://i.imgur.com/hQv38Kw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Hf8CkpI.jpg