Remington shutting H+R down?

[Bret4207]

Rumors on some other boards say Remington is shutting H+R plant down. Any solid info?:(

[twotrees]

Bret,

This was copied out of a Mass newspaper.

I don't like the sound of this either.

TwoTrees


================================================== ========


It’s billed as a “manufacturing consolidation” but to the 200-plus workers at what used to be the H&R 1971 –now- Remington Arms’ Gardner, Massachusetts plant, it’s a closure. For most of them, it means outplacement assistance. That’s a corporate pseudonym for unemployment.

Yesterday, confirming rumors that had been swirling about for the past three weeks, Remington’s CEO Tommy Milner issued a short press release saying that the Gardner plan would be closed by the end of 2008. “A number” of employees will be transitioned from Gardner to other positions within the company, but the majority will be offered the severance, outplacement and referral services that accompany a shutdown.

“While it was a difficult decision to close Gardner, we believe that this consolidation will enhance our ability to more efficiently provide quality products at competitive prices in an increasingly demanding global marketplace,” Millner, wrote in the short release.

“We are always looking for ways to strengthen and optimize our business in order to stay competitive, while also creating additional opportunities for our employees and better products for customers. Our number one goal is to provide our customers and end-users with the best, most innovative products at a competitive price. Consolidation of manufacturing capabilities and migration to common operating systems are expected to create efficiencies that will achieve this goal.”

From a traditional industry perspective, the decision is certainly a head-scratcher.

H&R 1871 has a reputation of showing a modest, but continuing profitability. Many in the industry felt that, as is the ultimate owner, Cerberus Capital’s habit (they own Remington), the Marlin/H&R 1871 operations would continue, receiving support from the Remington infrastructure as well as its considerable raw materials purchasing power. At least for the time being.

In Gardner, Mayor Mark Hawke has called the move by Remington a “travesty.” Hawke, too, maintains H&R has always been a profitable company.

“Now,” he says, “Remington comes in and they’re going to close them.”

Hawke is livid at the fact Remington didn’t bother to give local officials a courtesy call on the closing, letting them learn about the closure when the public announcement was made yesterday.

Likewise, Massachusetts officials say no one from Remington ever contacted them about their plans.

The Outdoor Wire contacted Remington, and we were told there would be “no further comment at this time” on the decision.

With this closure, it may be that Remington brings the paranoia concerning Cerberus Capital Partners from an undercurrent in the firearms industry to a front-and-center position.

Some industry leaders have expressed concern regarding the privately-held behemoth and its sudden – and very significant – entry into the firearms industry. Despite the stated love of the shooting industry, officials at other companies are privately concerned that Cerberus has sufficient resources to either bolster the firearms industry - or cripple it.

Now, with Remington, Marlin, H&R 1871, New England Firearms, LC Smith, Parker, Bushmaster, Cobb and DPMS already under the Cerberus umbrella, the speculation will likely grow.

[OBXPilgrim]

The word on the Greybeard NEF Handi forum is that the whole line is being moved to the Marlin plant in Kentucky.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

It's nice they always made a small but steady profit.
Now with marlin's leadership in shutting H&R down, euromasters without loyalty of any kind to the US or its citizens, can make a large, but shorter duration profit, by selling the cadaver off for salvage, before the US shooters start experiencing the "chinese crappola syndrome" and stop their former small but supportive buying of the imported garbage temporarily to be sold as H&R . BvT

[leftiye]

Sounds like an opportunity for someone to introduce a similar line, and do it right. Interchangeable barrels, ALL of them; and manufacturing tolerances not of Afganistani levels, and to include industry standard bore sizes, and groove depths, and TWISTS.

[Scrounger]

More likely course is that Remington will make a deal with Rossi to import their single shot rifles and market them under the Remington name.

[bcp477]

Oh well. That probably decides the issue for me. Though I'd love a single-shot...and have been considering an H&R/ NEF (whatever it's called this week)....I want nothing whatever to do with "production realignments"....or "outsourcing opportunities"....or any other related corporate BS. All this sort of thing usually adds up to is a crappy product....or a product with more bugs than an ant farm. I really couldn't care less about the specific issues of the business, or what the owners of the company want to do today, tomorrow, etc. I also have no judgements to make about the "international" issues related to this. I just don't want to be put in the position of having to do the R&D (or deal with the inevitable QC issues) on any product that I buy, FOR the company from which I buy it. If they need that kind of service, they can darn well PAY ME for it. So, I don't NEED a single-shot....and I don't want one THAT badly. I'll just stick to my old reliable Yugo Mauser......and keep it simple.

[Hackleback]

More likely course is that Remington will make a deal with Rossi to import their single shot rifles and market them under the Remington name.


Why would they do that? The Baikals singles that Rem is currently importing are "works of art".

[Scrounger]

I had forgotten, or little noticed, that they were doing that. I suppose they could always "change horses"...

[Baron von Trollwhack]

"Work of art" or "piece of work"? BvT

[jhrosier]

I had forgotten, or little noticed, that they were doing that. I suppose they could always "change horses"...

Just think of it as 280 American families with no income and dismal prospects.:x

Jack

[NVcurmudgeon]

Corporate America has become skilled at explaining how "streamlining, consolidation, global competition, outsourcing," and other corporate euphisms for crippling American industry will benefit "the bottom line." I wonder if management has researched who will buy the resulting "one world" products when Americans are all out of work.

[leftiye]

NVC, Well said.

[scb]

Sounds like an opportunity for someone to introduce a similar line, and do it right. Interchangeable barrels, ALL of them; and manufacturing tolerances not of Afganistani levels, and to include industry standard bore sizes, and groove depths, and TWISTS.

Sounds like your look'n for a T/C Contender Carbine

[JIMinPHX]

I sort of smelled this coming. I'm glad that I got mine while the getting was good. After this little stunt of theirs, I'm not buying anything new from Remington, Marlin or NEF ever again.

[Harry O]

I went through a plant closing about 20 years ago. I remember at the time that the union, the local mayor, and some other politicians were saying (quite loudly) that the plant was profitable. The said that there were various underhanded reasons for the closing. The union said it was to break the union. They said that if they did shut it down, the management would just wait 6 months and open it back up without the union. The mayor said that they were just trying to get tax breaks from the City.

However, I saw the books on a monthly basis (I am not an accountant -- and engineer, but we saw the numbers in staff meeting each month). The plant had been losing money for the past 6 years and it was getting worse. The union agreed to meet with management to see how to cut costs (they had fought any attempts in the past). Naturally, it would mean a new contract. I was in the room when the union president said his first words -- that they were intending to ask for $2 per hour raise, but since the company was in trouble, they were only going to ask for a $1 per hour raise. That means they were going to "give" the company a dollar an hour to help them -- and it was reported that way in the newspapers.

Anyway, the plant closed down and it is still shut down today. All the speculation about "profitability" was pure Bravo Sierra. I would believe that there is at least some of that here, too. Companies do not close down plants that make more in profit than what you can get by putting your money in money market accounts. I don't know for sure what that is today, but I would guess it is less than 5%. If they can't make that much, no investor is going to keep them open.

[Junior1942]

Harry O, you are a smart man.

[Boz330]

It's not just one thing that shuts these companies down. The fact is that the government along with other factors squeezes every last golden egg from the goose.
EPA, OSHA, unemployment insurance, health insurance, workmans comp, corporate taxes, property taxes, inventory tax, and a mountain of paperwork to prove you aren't doing anything wrong or illegal. Or you go to some country with none of the above that welcomes you with open arms.
I don't disagree with your sentiments just that it isn't always the evil corporations fault. And lets face it the younger generations aren't buying guns like us old guys and the biggest consumer is the worlds militaries. We are a drop in the bucket compared to that.

Bob

[jlchucker]

HarryO, I went thru the same thing myself--in the 1980's. Nearly identical scenario, to the letter! The community had 3 rather large businesses, founded locally in the 19th century but eventually owned by a conglomerate. Before bad-mouthing conglomerates, this one over time had spent untold amounts of money on a local high school shop program, provided scholarships for local kids, jobs pretty much guaranteed for them upon college graduation, etc. Then the profitability leaked away. After losing a million dollars a month for some 2 years, my local employer was sold off. Eventually the others in town were as well. Today, that town has 3 big industrial buildings that have been vacant for years. Unfortunately, this has been happening all over America, and politicians of both parties seem to care less. We who post here don't know the true circumstances behing the H & R thing--or Marlin either, for that matter. But regardless of sentiment toward their products (or lack thereof, if one happened to buy a lemon) a business decision was made, and the only reason a business exists is to make money. If H & R had been turning a good profit, and keeping production equipment up to date, then the new parent company probably wouldn't be spending the money to close them down--because even consolidations cost a company money.

[Scrounger]

Bob, the cost the government puts on a company is no different than the cost they pay for rent, power, insurance, or anything else. It is one of the factors that goes into arriving at a price at which you can profitably sell your product. It is the style of businesses today not to use your own money or profit to run the company but to keep it mortgaged to the hilt. The interest you pay is another price setting factor. Profits are kept low to avoid taxes. In this condition, the company is teetering on stability, one little change in conditions can push it across the line into bankruptcy. It also can create conditions which make the business attractive to the specialists in mergers and take-overs. If there is a lot of debt, the business can be bought for a minimal cash investment. Oddly enough, the debt and negative income can be attractive to companies with lots of profits they need to offset. Another factor can be company assets. How many times have you seen one company buy another, sell off their assets, then bankrupt the company, leaving the local bank and investors to take the loss.
other than rock stars, athletes, and lottery winners, guys don't get rich by being "lucky".

[badgeredd]

Unfortunately I too have worked for companies that closed because of profitability. First we were profitable and then an "expert" was imported by the "holding company" that had bought our company. Procedures were changed (read that as made worse) and we started losing money, according to management. Next, the holding company started consolidating and closing various plants. Finally they closed the last one to Whirlpool. Point is they had been profitable because they sold off all the assets, and IMHO they had no intension of making the company a thriving business. They just pillaged the assets and raped the employees. BTW the company was in the top 20 nationally as molding/tool building companies. Obviously greed was the entire reason for their (the holding company's) acquisition. It seems that a profit isn't all that is wanted by these raiders. They want huge profits!

Sad that this seems to be the trend throughout the US. God help us if we need to defend our borders and way of life!

[rbstern]

Too bad. They've been making firearms in Gardner, MA, for a very long time. End of an era.

[Harry O]

That remids me. The union also said that there were two sets of books. The "actual" profit and what they were being told were losses. I don't believe that for a minute.

Yes, some companies are worth more sold off in parts. However, that is a one-shot deal. Once it is done, there is no more money to be had from it. An ongoing company that is making a REAL profit will continue to provide money for everyone as long as any ONE group in the company doesn't get greedy (that covers union, management, and stockholders (if there are any)). It is preferable to keep a profitible company going and it is preferable to break up a losing company and sell it off it parts.

Regardless of what is said, I don't believe this was a profitable company. It was privately held by Marlin so there were no public accountings. We still don't have an accounting because the current owner is private, too. Even if we did, what good would it do? There would still be people saying that they were keeping two sets of books to show losses. I still believe that a company that is showing a REAL profit (as opposed to accounting tricks -- which can only work for a short time), will not be closed down.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Of course one thing left unsaid was and is massachusetts' unstinting efforts against, GOD, guns, religion, family, personal responsibility and the "Protestant" work ethic, and the continuing voter and government thrust towards everything opposit to the above. So really the citizens bear as much responsibility as the union "giving" a dollar back to the employer going down the drain. BvT

[Boz330]

Bob, the cost the government puts on a company is no different than the cost they pay for rent, power, insurance, or anything else. It is one of the factors that goes into arriving at a price at which you can profitably sell your product. It is the style of businesses today not to use your own money or profit to run the company but to keep it mortgaged to the hilt. The interest you pay is another price setting factor. Profits are kept low to avoid taxes. In this condition, the company is teetering on stability, one little change in conditions can push it across the line into bankruptcy. It also can create conditions which make the business attractive to the specialists in mergers and take-overs. If there is a lot of debt, the business can be bought for a minimal cash investment. Oddly enough, the debt and negative income can be attractive to companies with lots of profits they need to offset. Another factor can be company assets. How many times have you seen one company buy another, sell off their assets, then bankrupt the company, leaving the local bank and investors to take the loss.
other than rock stars, athletes, and lottery winners, guys don't get rich by being "lucky".

Art, I don't disagree with everything you say but manufacturing especially doesn't operate in a vacuum. If stuff coming in from outside the country is cheaper to buy then folks will buy it. In many cases these items are throw away when their life span is met. TVs are a perfect example. In some cases such as cars the items coming in are as good as or better than US made. With out a doubt the Japs gave the big 3 a dose of reality back in the late 70s. A US made car was toast at 100K miles. The Japanese stuff was going 200K to 300K. The US caught up and I'm sure they will again.
My business is service oriented and I have some competition so I can't just charge what ever I want. I do have to comply with FAA regulations and in the last 5 years they made major changes to the regs for Aviation SAFETY. Since the FAA doesn't distinguish between a 747 and a hot air ballon (which is what I work on) we all have to comply with the same paperwork which has doubled or more. Then they also saw the need for ongoing training. I am a one man shop so I get to take myself off in a corner and give myself continueing education and evaluate whether it was effective.
When I was rewriting all of these manuals I was seriously trying to figure out a way to retire, and I actually love what I do, except the paperwork. Point is since I've been in this business, aproximately 34 years, the regulation has gone from an inconvience, to a major hassle in time. If there is an improvement in safety it is only because the working class man has been driven out of general aviation because of cost. I'm not saying some oversight isn't necessary for the protection of the masses, but there is no common sense used most of the time, it seems it is kill a cockroach with a Buick.

Bob

[GSM]

Anybody see a replay sort of along the lines of Smith Wesson from a few years ago?

[Little Joe]

My first gun was an H&R 20ga shotgun and I still have it.Their shotguns are not to bad for the money and I think every kid should have one.

Their rifles on the other hand are a joke,just cheap junk.If Remington shuts them down thats no bg deal.We all will be better off without them.No loss at all.

Out of here,
Little Joe

[OBXPilgrim]

Their shotguns are not to bad for the money and I think every kid should have one.

Their rifles on the other hand are a joke,just cheap junk. No loss at all.

Out of here,
Little Joe

Well, that's some interesting observations but exactly opposite of mine. I've always looked at the shotguns as pure junk, that I never could hit any thing with because the pattern was always so high to the bead sight.

The rifles on the other hand, were quite useful.

I've got one gun with a .22 Hornet barrel that I finally got to shoot good, a .357 mag barrel (that can be loaded to .357 max due to it's long chamber & throat & .360 DW brass), a 7.62x39 barrel that I've got shooting 1" at 80 yards with H4895 & 311041 cast, and a 50 cal muzzleloader barrel.

I'd love to have one more 'Handi' from them - a .223Rem/.30-30Win/.45-70, and might even send it back for one of the junker shotgun barrels - if I could get one with a vent rib (Classics).

[jack19512]

Their rifles on the other hand are a joke,just cheap junk.






That is quite an observation. :roll: How many of the H&R rifles have you had to base your opinion on? And what about the rifles brought you to this conclusion? Although some like the rifles and some don't you are the first person I have read or heard about that rated them junk.

I have had three of the rifles myself. One was a 17 Mach2 Sportster, a .223 Ultra, and a Buffalo Classic 45/70. Of the three I only have the Buffalo Classic now. I didn't sell the other two because they were junk though.

I sold the two because I just didn't like single shots and also to finance other purchases. I will never sell my B/C. They are what they are, but to say they are junk in my opinion is undeserved.

Whether you like a firearm or not and whether you buy a certain firearm or not it hurts a lot of people when a product goes out of production. H&R rifles were inexpensive and I am sure are responsible for quite a few people getting into the shooting sports. There are a lot of people that own much more expensive firearms and think highly of their H&R rifles.

I respect your opinion and know that there must be reasons you feel this way but to feel to the extent you do bothers me. If they discontinue making these rifles jobs will be lost and some people that don't have buckets of money on hand will be deprived of being able to purchase a rifle that most anybody can afford. :(

[Nrut]

I just don't want to be put in the position of having to do the R&D (or deal with the inevitable QC issues) on any product that I buy, FOR the company from which I buy it. If they need that kind of service, they can darn well PAY ME for it. So, I don't NEED a single-shot....and I don't want one THAT badly. I'll just stick to my old reliable Yugo Mauser......and keep it simple.

Then you don't want a Handi rifle......don't believe me...then how do you explain all the home fix sticky's over at the NEF/H&R Talk forum over at GrayBeard?...for all we know Remington just might kick some quality control into some handi-rifle butt...I speak from the experience of owning two of these rifles bcp477...One shoots and the other I'll most likely have to rechamber so I can fit the proper sized cast bullet to groove dia....
Remington taking over Handi is a good thing and my glass is half full for now...:)

[HORNET]

I'm still surprised that there are ANY firearms companies actually manufacturing in the Northeast U.S.. High labor costs, hostile state government regulations and policies, obscenely high tax rates... I expect to see more become no more than a business office (if that) with the actual manufacturing being done in a state with much more attractive atmosphere.

[bcp477]

I care not a fig for all of the controversy and swirling masses of hearsay surrounding this issue. I operate by the K.I.S.S. principal, which has served me well for a very long time. That is, in fact, the whole reason I wanted a single-shot rifle. However, all of the nonsense surrounding the whole issue just puts me off. So, no...at this point, I don't want an H&R/ NEF....or any other new rifle. It's better that way, in any case.

[Sam]

If we don't want all those crippling regulations and featherbedding unions, all we have to do is vote the turds out of Congress! No one seems to understand that point, or be willing to do anything about it.

Sam

[Junior1942]

.....Their rifles on the other hand are a joke,just cheap junk.If Remington shuts them down thats no bg deal.We all will be better off without them.No loss at all.My 45-70 Handi-Rifle is a loooong way from being junk. Will your high-$ Ruger #1 do this at 100 yards with iron sights? Heck, will it do it with a 24x scope?

With a little sight tweaking, I could have hit that quarter 4 out of 5 shots @ 100 yards. . . . With open sights......

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/photos/187108.jpg

[James C. Snodgrass]

Junior, Yes my #1 will do that.James[smilie=1:

[boommer]

for me a shotgun that shoots over the bead it gives me no cover up is a shot advantage I want, but thats me! The handi's are great bang for the the buck! we will see what happens best of luck for there jobs.

[JIMinPHX]

I disagree about H&R rifles being junk. My favorite hunting rifle is a Handi. Also, I can’t count on one hand, how many times I’ve been at a range next to some guy with a high dollar, biped equipped, huge scoped, bull barreled, should-be-a-tackdriver rifle next to my little Handi that I bench rest on an empty cardboard ammo box, & I outshoot the living daylights out of his groups. I’m just starting to work up cast loads for the Handi, so my cast performance isn’t stellar yet, but I had my j-word groups down below 1/2" with 3 different types of bullets at 100-yards using a crummy little $200 Handi. They’re quick handling, quick pointing little rifles with most of the barrels that you commonly see on them. Quite frankly, I leave my $600 rifle, of the same caliber, in the gun safe & grab my Handi most of the time when I go hunting.

Also, the nice lady in Gardner that I have spoken to when I have called there has been nothing less than helpful any time that I have called her. She has always given me straight answers & they have always been correct. My only disappointment, was that I got a 1:12 twist .223 when I was expecting a 1:9. The people at H&R didn’t mess it up though. I failed to check my facts. I had been told by someone here on this board that they had changed over to 1:9, so that’s what I had expected. I had never checked with H&R to see what twist they were producing. That’s my fault, not theirs.

[JIMinPHX]

Junior, if that’s your 100-yard work with iron sights, then remind me never to get on your bad side.[smilie=1: There would be no escape.

[JIMinPHX]

I'm still surprised that there are ANY firearms companies actually manufacturing in the Northeast U.S.. High labor costs, hostile state government regulations and policies, obscenely high tax rates... I expect to see more become no more than a business office (if that) with the actual manufacturing being done in a state with much more attractive atmosphere.
This is why I am baffled by Henry setting up shop in Brooklyn of all places. I also find it hard to believe that firearms are still manufactured in Connecticut & Springfield Mass. Guns are being made in the places that they are hardest to own & where production costs are sky high. Kimber is in Yonkers too! Another bewilderment.

[Hackleback]

"Work of art" or "piece of work"? BvT

intended as a bit of tongue-in-cheek.....


Not one to think everything is a conspiricy, but it makes one wonder why they are buying up all the american gun companies... do they smell money or???????????

[cuzinbruce]

Harrington & Richardson made pretty good Garands. On the other hand, the one Topper I had came apart on me while shooting a round of trap. Forend got looser and looser, to where I was having to hold it in place. When I got home, I saw that it was the pin holding it was bending as I fired it. And that is about all that is holding a single shot together!!!
As to the price differential, our trading partners (such as the Chicoms who were given "Most Favored Nation" trading status by Bubba Clinton) have pegged there currencies artificially low. China is notorious for this. When the last America manufacturers are gone, then they will turn the screws on us and prices will go out of sight. Bought any gasoline lately? In the meantime, Republicans and Democrats alike pretend there is no problem. Oblivious or paid off?
Bruce

[Marlin Junky]

I sort of smelled this coming. I'm glad that I got mine while the getting was good. After this little stunt of theirs, I'm not buying anything new from Remington, Marlin or NEF ever again.

What are you trying to accomplish by boycotting Remington, Marlin and NEF? If everyone felt that way there would be more American workers in unemployment lines. I think the best we can do is trust the free enterprise system to maintain itself and vote for Representatives that will protect out freedoms.

MJ

[JIMinPHX]

As to the price differential, our trading partners (such as the Chicoms who were given "Most Favored Nation" trading status by Bubba Clinton) have pegged there currencies artificially low. China is notorious for this. When the last America manufacturers are gone, then they will turn the screws on us and prices will go out of sight. Bought any gasoline lately? In the meantime, Republicans and Democrats alike pretend there is no problem. Oblivious or paid off?
Bruce

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that sees this.

[Marlin Junky]

Originally Posted by cuzinbruce:
"As to the price differential, our trading partners (such as the Chicoms who were given "Most Favored Nation" trading status by Bubba Clinton) have pegged there currencies artificially low. China is notorious for this..."

And, as a result China is scurrying around Asia trying to find the cheapest source of labor in the world.

The fundamental concern today is where are the energy sources coming from. Russia is positioned very well with extensive reserves while North America has misinformed, politically biased environmentalists keeping certain forms of energy development at bay. Russia has already opened up their energy markets to foreign investors/traders so we'd better get a handle on how to compete whether that means buying Russian real estate or whatever.

MJ