Inverted HBWC in 38 Spl

[BKS]

I want to load some of the Berry's plated or if I can find them, some powder coated, HBWC in 38 spl.
Even if they don't work any better, they will look impressive. Ha jk.
anybody have any load data or observations?
Or just use the regular data.

[Scharfschuetze]

Many of us have done this at one time or another. I did, checked the block, and to be honest, I have never done it again. I don't recall any accuracy issues at short range. I never tried them in anything other than my back up and off duty 38 Special S&W.

boolit weight and bearing surface is the same whether it's right side up or upside down, but the case volume will be less, so pressures should be higher with the boolit reversed if using the same charge. As always, start low and work up till you arrive where you want to be with them.

Keep in mind that factory (hornaday and Speer) HBWC boolits are swaged lead and thus pretty soft and prone to leading at higher 38 Special velocities. By using your intended plated or powder coated boolit you should be able to up the velocity levels a useful amount.

[Char-Gar]

Let's don't do this again, shall we not. Go take a look at the recent thread about 38 Special man stopper loads, or do a search. There are some things that have been answered over and over again, that just are not worthy of another do over.

[BKS]

Sorry. I didn't search enough.
Thanks for the replies.

[oldcanadice]

I loaded a bunch of Hornadys many years ago and they were very impressive hard off the muzzle. They were +P equivalent loads. If you took a one-pound metal coffee can, filled it with water, put the plastic lid on and set the can down on the top at about 15 feet, a hit anywhere close to center would blow the can about six feet in the air and split it open and wrap it back around on itself. The water formed a ball in the air about 10-15 feet across behind the place where the can was. A friend blew a skunk practically in two with one at about 15 feet.

That was the good news. Ultimately they were not a good idea.

First; you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with them at 50 feet. Then; my friend ringed the barrel on a 357 Ruger single action shooting them. Near as we could tell, one of the bullets blew through leaving the body of the bullet in the barrel. You couldn't tell -- all the noise and recoil were still there. The next bullet down made the mess and a return to Ruger for a new barrel. You can avoid that problem with the Hornadys by putting a gas-check on the step on nose (now the base).

Have fun playing with them; we sure did. But be advised: if you shot a person with one in this day an age, you would be guaranteed to go to jail for a very long time -- self defense or not -- and they'd take everything your family has in a lawsuit they would surely win. Don't even think about using them for self-defense carry.

[Uncle R.]

Have fun playing with them; we sure did. But be advised: if you shot a person with one in this day an age, you would be guaranteed to go to jail for a very long time -- self defense or not -- and they'd take everything your family has in a lawsuit they would surely win. Don't even think about using them for self-defense carry.

Oh Cheez...
Now you did it.

Guess I'll just sit back and watch...

:popcorn:

Uncle R.

[jmort]

Previously read, and decided to save the server some space.

[oldcanadice]

Unc R: Didn't you ever knock down a hornet's nest just to watch the buggers fly?

[Walkingwolf]

I loaded a bunch of Hornadys many years ago and they were very impressive hard off the muzzle. They were +P equivalent loads. If you took a one-pound metal coffee can, filled it with water, put the plastic lid on and set the can down on the top at about 15 feet, a hit anywhere close to center would blow the can about six feet in the air and split it open and wrap it back around on itself. The water formed a ball in the air about 10-15 feet across behind the place where the can was. A friend blew a skunk practically in two with one at about 15 feet.

That was the good news. Ultimately they were not a good idea.

First; you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with them at 50 feet. Then; my friend ringed the barrel on a 357 Ruger single action shooting them. Near as we could tell, one of the bullets blew through leaving the body of the bullet in the barrel. You couldn't tell -- all the noise and recoil were still there. The next bullet down made the mess and a return to Ruger for a new barrel. You can avoid that problem with the Hornadys by putting a gas-check on the step on nose (now the base).

Have fun playing with them; we sure did. But be advised: if you shot a person with one in this day an age, you would be guaranteed to go to jail for a very long time -- self defense or not -- and they'd take everything your family has in a lawsuit they would surely win. Don't even think about using them for self-defense carry.

There is absolutely no case law to support the bold. You are either justified, or you are not, if a person is justified in using deadly force they can use any tool legally available. That could be a car, golf club, cinder block, sledge hammer, or custom handloaded ammo. I just wish someone would provide some case law before coming up with this garbage.

Now I would not use HBWC for SD, lack of penetration.

[Uncle R.]

Unc R: Didn't you ever knock down a hornet's nest just to watch the buggers fly?

Lemme just move my chair back a little more...

:bigsmyl2:

[dubber123]

I will avoid the ridiculous SD argument and answer the OP's question. Yes, I tried them, I used Hornady HBWC's. They are a little harder and seem to have a bit thicker skirt than many swaged boolits.. Even at fairly low velocities they expand very well. The bad news is they penetrate very poorly and shoot just as badly at any range not measured in feet. Fun to play with, but I don't carry them. And yes, I carry handloads for self defence.

[Mark454]

You WILL NOT go to jail because of specifics about your weapon/ammo. I know, cause my cousin's step-sister's cat's previous owner's cardiologist's son-in-law shot a robber with his m-1911-a1-howitzer-spec-ops grenade launcher and got off clean.

He was using handloads AND had a trigger job. True story...

[Scharfschuetze]

You WILL NOT go to jail because of specifics about your weapon/ammo.

Criminal Law and Civil Law are two different animals, but for some reason the two get mixed up whenever this argument is addressed.

Criminal law's standard for self-defense is pretty simple here in America. "Did you fear for your life or serious bodily injury to either yourself or another?" This is the question any prosecutor will have to determine before deciding to prosecute or not to prosecute. Even police shootings must fall within these guide lines to be considered a "justified shoot" and the situations are studied at the microscopic level.

Torte or civil law can skew way to the left of common sense. With too many attorneys trying to feed their families, who knows what claim can or will be made. The deeper your pockets (how rich your are), the more ludicrous the claim may be. Of course there is no possibility of jail time in this venue, because it is all about obtaining monetary damages against you for a wrongful act. Instead of the government filing criminal claim against you, a second party (the plaintiff) does so for a perceived harmful or careless act by you that caused him some type of damage.

I believe that this whole argument about hand loads got started in one way or another with the writings of one Masad Ayoob (Sp?) back in the mid to late 70s. He was a reserve police officer in one of the Atlantic coast states and made a pretty penny writing about police matters including gun fighting and the consequences thereof in police journals. While I disregarded much of his writing as bombast and hyperbole, I understand from those who attended his shooting courses that he was a pretty good firearms instructor.

Police officers at times get into trouble for using hand loads when their department's firearms policies mandate that they only use issue ammo. One of the fellows (a good friend) on my department ran into a firestorm of public opinion and an internal investigation because he used hand loads instead of the issue ammo in a gun fight. It was a good shoot and considered justified by the prosecutor's office, but he suffered from the civil end of it due to his disregard of policies. In the end, he left police work due to the whole issue. I used issue ammo when needed, and never had a hick up with the District Attorney or the shooting review board.

[Char-Gar]

In Texas Civil Law, I can conceive of no set of circumstances where the use of a handload would make the difference in ether or nor a judgment was obtained in a Tort law suit involving the use of a firearm. The legal issue would be whether or not the shooting itself was negligent or not. If the shooting was not negligent it will not matter what he/she was shot with. If the shooting was negligent, again it would not matter what he/she was shot with.

Under Texas Criminal Law, either a shooting was justified under the law or it was not. What gun and ammo was used will have no bearing on the case.

This old nonsense about legal consequences of the use of handloads was a load of BS when originally thrown out there, and has not improved with passing years. Still it is passed around among the unknowledable and you just can't seem to drive a stake through it's heart.

[dragon813gt]

This old nonsense about legal consequences of the use of handloads was a load of BS when originally thrown out there, and has not improved with passing years. Still it is passed around among the unknowledable and you just can't seem to drive a stake through it's heart.
You can thank Massad Ayoob for this. I'm surprised that his name wasn't mentioned by someone before me. He is the one that brought the whole issue to the forefront.

[Mark454]

I agree guys, this argument gets waaaay overdone. Practice with what you carry, don't ever draw your weapon until you've made the conscience decision that pulling the trigger is the only solution, and you're okay living with what ever consequences the court decides you deserve.

I hope I never have to draw my weapon, but if I ever do, it will be because there is an active threat to life, and that threat must be stopped at all costs. Until then, I disregard the fact my weapon is even part of the equation.

[Char-Gar]

You can thank Massad Ayoob for this. I'm surprised that his name wasn't mentioned by someone before me. He is the one that brought the whole issue to the forefront.

I know the source of the BS, but I don't mention the man's name because there will always be some guy that thinks his writing are holy writ and I don't need another argument today. He built him a business being a "firearms expert" and experts have to know stuff others don't know, or else people won't pay them for being an expert. Sometimes they really do know stuff and sometimes they just make it up.

[oldcanadice]

FYI: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-628312.html& Very squishy law.

Also note: New York is a 'you-must-retreat' state where the way you prepare for an encounter can be used to imply malicious intent regardless of any claim of self defense. Even more squishy law. Google won't find them for you, but I read of any number of totally crazy convictions in self defense cases in the 25 years I lived there. Also abused the other way around: a case I remember was a NYC judge threw out a charge against a felon with a gun because the felon wasn't trying to actually "use" the gun when arrested. The laws on illegal possession weren't even admitted.

Just sayin: The Northeast is a totally bizarre place for a Westerner to understand or adjust to.

[Walkingwolf]

You can thank Massad Ayoob for this. I'm surprised that his name wasn't mentioned by someone before me. He is the one that brought the whole issue to the forefront.

I did not buy his bible, and am not a member of his cult.

[Mark454]

I did not buy his bible, and am not a member of his cult.

+1, I didn't drink that Kool-Aid either.

[oldcanadice]

OK. Now that the venting part of the discussion seems to be waning, maybe we can get to the fun part of the question.

Who else out there has actually loaded some cup points and actually SHOT something with them? Coyote? Small Deer? What were the results (good or bad)?

Time to pony up some stories!

[tazman]

I loaded some NOE 148 grain hollow based wadcutters backwards that I cast myself. This was in the nature of an experiment. I used range scrap and did not water quench them as is my usual method.
I shot them at paper and into water. They shot reasonably well out to 20 yards which surprised me a bit until I realized the skirts on the hollow base were much thicker than any factory hollow based I have seen.
When I shot them into water jugs they didn't penetrate very far and appeared to mushroom drastically, then break up. The slugs I recovered had pieces of the skirt broken out.
I doubt they would work very well unless used on something small in which case you might as well load them normally.
They are extremely accurate loaded normally.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm surprised that his name wasn't mentioned by someone before me.

Paragraph four, two posts above your post. :shock:


I believe that this whole argument about hand loads got started in one way or another with the writings of one Masad Ayoob (Sp?) back in the mid to late 70s. He was a reserve police officer in one of the Atlantic coast states and made a pretty penny writing about police matters including gun fighting and the consequences thereof in police journals. While I disregarded much of his writing as bombast and hyperbole, I understand from those who attended his shooting courses that he was a pretty good firearms instructor.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Tried loading HBWC Hornady and Speer boolets in .38 spcl cases. The accuracy (?) fell off past 30 feet! I found that the Hornady weren`t as soft and gummy as Speer boolets nor leaded like Speer did. Tested on 1x6" boards I found they would split the wood using the loads I made.Robert

[Good Cheer]

Speers will mushroom well. So will the Lyman hollow base mold if cast soft.
Mild loads from a snubby will mushroom on water.
By the way, years ago the Speers had a little partial spherical section on the front. If you trimmed that off with a razor blade then the little step behind it made a perfect gas check base. Loaded with 296 in .357's they would stop rabid melons on contact.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Double ended flat faced or not flat face wadcutters cut nice clean holes in the target making them easy to score, but their shape is the worst possible aerodynamically. They will skid on the wind; a HBWC reversed will do even worse especially if the HB is not perfectly cast/centered and you would do better to shoot them as they were intended to be shot to start with....that is if you are interested in the best grouping. if you have any other reason for reversing them then do so. LLS

[SSGOldfart]

Many of us have done this at one time or another. I did, checked the block, and to be honest, I have never done it again. I don't recall any accuracy issues at short range. I never tried them in anything other than my back up and off duty 38 Special S&W.

boolit weight and bearing surface is the same whether it's right side up or upside down, but the case volume will be less, so pressures should be higher with the boolit reversed if using the same charge. As always, start low and work up till you arrive where you want to be with them.

Keep in mind that factory (hornaday and Speer) HBWC boolits are swaged lead and thus pretty soft and prone to leading at higher 38 Special velocities. By using your intended plated or powder coated boolit you should be able to up the velocity levels a useful amount.

Funny how much many of us think alike I just did this two days ago with both upside down didn't make any difference for me and PC tighten my groups noticeably,I did find a bit of change in the POI with the upside down ones,,but a third experience was testing a PC Hollow Point 358439 POI moved right at a inch high and a inch left with 3grs. Of bullseye used in all of the loads wadcutters where seated flush with the case mouth and hollow Point where seated a bit lower than normal OAL 1.49"
Testing was done using a Ruger black hawk in 357no choreography due to a broken screen,I dropped it "That's my story and I'm sticking to it":bigsmyl2:

[hicard]

I used that load against an attacking pit bull once and must say that it was very effective. Now I agree that a hbwc loaded, as designed, is still an effective round and that is what I am doing now. Besides. in court, I was using a simple light target load. Who can attack that?

[Beerd]

OK. Now that the venting part of the discussion seems to be waning, maybe we can get to the fun part of the question.

Who else out there has actually loaded some cup points and actually SHOT something with them? Coyote? Small Deer? What were the results (good or bad)?

Time to pony up some stories!

from an piece written by a fellow named Paco titled "357 Magnum and the Literature":
"I shot a black bear one time with a reversed 147 grain hollow base wadcutter, so the hollow base was now the hollow nose, and it was loaded over 6 or so grains of Bullseye for over 1500 fps. Killed that bear so fast I thought a tree fell on him... Of course it fouls at that velocity also very quickly... but even that soft wadcutter went thru the lungs of the bear and expanded well."

..

[Good Cheer]

Just photo of some tests run quite a while back. You can see where they hit the bottom of the five gallon buckets.

It should be stated that sizing to allow seating out is critical to controlling pressures. These WERE NOT seated flush with the case mouths.

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/snubby%20tests_zpsffep6ure.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/snubby%20tests_zpsffep6ure.jpg.html)

[Char-Gar]

from an piece written by a fellow named Paco titled "357 Magnum and the Literature":
"I shot a black bear one time with a reversed 147 grain hollow base wadcutter, so the hollow base was now the hollow nose, and it was loaded over 6 or so grains of Bullseye for over 1500 fps. Killed that bear so fast I thought a tree fell on him... Of course it fouls at that velocity also very quickly... but even that soft wadcutter went thru the lungs of the bear and expanded well."

..

Paco Kelly is very knowledgeable and a fan of the hot loaded 357 Magnum. An inverted HBWC going 800 fps and 1,500 fps are entirely different propositions. A soft lead slug of any shape when pushed fast enough will mash out and keep on going until it runs out of energy. Drop the velocity of Paco's load 700 fps and the results on that bear would have been quite different.

The main knock on the reversed HBWC in the 38 Special is that accuracy is not much beyond rock throwing distance if that.

[Walkingwolf]

from an piece written by a fellow named Paco titled "357 Magnum and the Literature":
"I shot a black bear one time with a reversed 147 grain hollow base wadcutter, so the hollow base was now the hollow nose, and it was loaded over 6 or so grains of Bullseye for over 1500 fps. Killed that bear so fast I thought a tree fell on him... Of course it fouls at that velocity also very quickly... but even that soft wadcutter went thru the lungs of the bear and expanded well."

..
That's nothing, M. Ayoob once wrote that he shot at a water snake, and missed, and the snake died from the concussion...

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Just general musings here.....

Funny how this reversed wadcutter thing keeps coming up. Many threads and posts. The information and conclusions never change....they work well if you can hit with them.....but there are better boolits and bullets out there for the purpose. I remember guys talking about the concept 'way back in 1969 when I first got into law enforcement and the issue round was the miserable 158 gr. RN .38 Spec. The reversed wadcutter probably would have been an improvement over that, but that's all we were allowed to carry at the time.

How can an innocent person be found guilty/liable in Civil Court? Well, the burden of proof is much less. In a criminal court the jurors must agree unanimously that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In a civil court proceeding it goes by the preponderance of evidence and a majority vote. Also, the civil proceeding doesn't have to be about the actual act, but can instead be for the perceived results of the act like deprivation of income, companionship, and the pain and suffering caused by the demise of the late departed. The kiss of death for a defendant, whether in the right or not, can often be the presence of insurance. Jurors often seem very ready to hand out insurance money to the aggrieved.

As for Mr. Ayoob, he has written several books about self defense and what to expect after the act, one of them being "In The Gravest Extreme", and they are well worth the read for those not already well schooled in the subject. He is, and has been for years, an active officer/supervisor in a medium-sized police dept. and travels all over the U.S. of A. and to other countries to testify as an expert witness in shooting trials. His services are expensive! They used to say that in a self-defense situation every shot the defendant fired would cost him $20,000 in legal fees. I imagine that has changed with inflation.........

[olafhardt]

One of the Lee 50 caliber minie balls is essentially a 50 cal, 365 grain HBWC. I shoot them over 6.7 grains of unique out of my 500S&W Handirifle. They will completely penatrate two gallon jugs of water either forward or reversed. The reversed made a bit larger hole in the second jug. Since I cast these boolits out of 50 to 1 ww + tin I am sure they they are harder and tougher than lead. I think they would do an out standing of deturtleing logs.