Loading 312-160-2R in 308 Win

[newton]

I've been researching and poking around for a few weeks now because I have a couple of projects I have to complete before Christmas. One is getting a cast load setup for my nephews 243, and the other is getting a cast load setup for my boys new 308.

The 308 is a Rossi(actually they both are but this thread is about the 308) and based on my experience with my nephews gun I figured this Rossi would have the same deep throat that Rossi is known for. Well, I picked the gun up yesterday and it seems my assumptions were correct.

For the sake of time I went ahead and purchased all the needed supplies to load for it, including a mold. I was not sure which mold to get in order to offset the deep throat. So I ended up with the 312-160-2R. I wanted a "lighter" weight boolit for his general shooting needs and this seemed to fit the ticket - besides, he is still young and pointed boolit just looks cool :grin:

Anyways, I figured I would start this thread and keep track of the process for others to see and so I can ask for help as it comes along. Which brings me to my first question.

I loaded up a dummy round just to see how deep the throat is and I got these results.

153704

153705

This is where it just started to kiss the lands as you can see from the marks. So, my question is do you want to see these marks, or do you keep adjusting it down to where the marks are not visible. Or, do you seat out further to where you see more defined marks? In my research I just kept hearing the same thing come up with loading this boolit "seat till they kiss the lands" - or something like that.

The round chambered easily, even when the boolit was seated out further. On ALL of my other guns I have never had this quandary because I needed to seat to a particular OAL for the gun to function correctly, plus I have never loaded this style of boolit. The only other one that comes close is my 30-30, but I use a bore riding boolit that sometimes leaves marks, and sometimes not depending on how the mold dropped the boolits. But I don't take this into consideration with that gun because its a different critter.

I'll be starting load development using 4227, just looking for a good easy shooting load for general plinking. Later I'll be working up a hunting load but using a different boolit.

One thing I do like so far is that at this seating depth the gas check will be sitting even with the base of the neck.

[s mac]

Try it both ways, let the rifle tell you what it likes.

[newton]

True. I think I will start with it as is. I guess I was more curious if the above picture is what is indicative of what people call "kissing the lands". When you kiss the lands, do you just touch them, or actually leave marks on your boolits?

My plan is to load 5 round batches and start with 19 grains going up to 28. Then I will see what the groups look like, what the barrel looks like, and hone in from there. Its a big spread, but that's about the spread I have seen people work with when loading this boolit for the 308, and it fits in with the spread listed in the Lyman manual.

I cast a bunch last night, tonight I'll put gas checks on and size them, then tonight/tomorrow powder coat them. I hope to be able to test this weekend. Christmas is just around the corner.

[Doc Highwall]

Two questions, did you slug your barrel at the chamber end, and what diameter are you going to size the bullets at.

I would suggest the the bullet be .001" - .002" larger than your barrels throat diameter and your case neck expander to be only .001" - .002" smaller than your cast bullet size.

[newton]

I have not slugged yet, but because I HIGHLY doubt it will be over .309", I am going to size to .310".

Im not trying to wring sub MOA accuracy so as long as there is no leading, and I get decent groups, I'm happy. The one thing I would like to do is get as much velocity as possible so that the scoped hunting zero will be close to the plinking trajectory. But not at the cost of big groups/leading.

[quilbilly]

I am using the C309-160-R sized to 309 in my 308. When I first bought the rifle a year ago and took it to the range with that CB without sighting it in, the first group out of the gate was sub MOA. 19 gr of 2400 was the load but 23.5 gr of 4198 is just about as good.

[newton]

I am using the C309-160-R sized to 309 in my 308. When I first bought the rifle a year ago and took it to the range with that CB without sighting it in, the first group out of the gate was sub MOA. 19 gr of 2400 was the load but 23.5 gr of 4198 is just about as good.

I figure that my 19 grain of 4227 will be about the same also. I took note of a post I saw of Ed Harris in which he talked about starting at 19 grains for the 308(and a couple others I think). He also talks about using it in place of 2400.

Which, I might just stop at that - if it does good - and shoot some of the hunting loads to see where they hit.

I plan on sighting the gun in at 2" high at 100 yards for the hunting load. If I could ever find a ballistics calculator that would allow you to chart one load, then see what the trajectory would be if you dropped the velocity down, I would be a happy camper.

[newton]

Well I found it. I am quite happy now. I can now see what the trajectory would be of the two rounds.

Using "Ballistics Explorer" by Oehler. I kept trying to figure it out and could not so I emailed them this morning. They replied back very quickly and gave me the exact procedure to do what I was wanting to do.

I also talked to Sierra, but they were not quite as useful in their explanation of it, and I am still not convinced their software allows it to happen even though they say it does. They just did not seem to understand exactly what I was asking about.

Anyways, I checked the weight of my boolits last night and they are right at 165 grains, so with a gas check and coating they will be at 170 grains.

Question: Do you use data in the Lyman Cast Bullet manual for 160 grain or the 170 grain? They don't show data for the Lee boolit at all.

[quilbilly]

The Lyman manual is more than adequate for most purposes for muzzle velocity although I chronograph to verify. For downrange ballistics I use published ballistics coefficients (in this case from the Lee website) then run to my old Speer reloading manual which has excellent tables. For terminal ballistics I do my own tests with soaked compressed phone books at 40 yards. From my own terminal ballistics tests, the Lee C309-160 (drops from my mold and alloy at 167 gr) at a muzzle velocity of 1850 will do just fine out to 200 yards. That same boolit from my 30/30 at an MV of 1550 gives 17" of penetration and an impressive wound channel at 40 yards so it is clearly more than adequate to 125 yards even at that lower MV.

[newton]

The Lyman manual is more than adequate for most purposes for muzzle velocity although I chronograph to verify. For downrange ballistics I use published ballistics coefficients (in this case from the Lee website) then run to my old Speer reloading manual which has excellent tables. For terminal ballistics I do my own tests with soaked compressed phone books at 40 yards. From my own terminal ballistics tests, the Lee C309-160 (drops from my mold and alloy at 167 gr) at a muzzle velocity of 1850 will do just fine out to 200 yards. That same boolit from my 30/30 at an MV of 1550 gives 17" of penetration and an impressive wound channel at 40 yards so it is clearly more than adequate to 125 yards even at that lower MV.

do you get that 1850 fps with your 19gr of 2400?

[newton]

Got my boolits coated and ready to go. But ran into a question.

I am reloading military brass, which many people - including a special note on Sierra's data page - say to reduce by 1 or 2 grains when using military brass.

Does this translate to cast boolits also? I would think that Lyman might make mention of it in their book, and maybe I glanced over it.....but I was curious if anyone has experience any difference using military brass vs Lyman published loads?

I know that with the pressures we are dealing with, except for the high end stuff, it is not as dangerous as jacketed loading stuff. But at the same time, we are dealing with different powders.

I have a chronograph, so I will start low and see where it goes, but I would still be curious about others experiences.

[SSGOldfart]

Try it both ways, let the rifle tell you what it likes.

Man that's a good bit over size for a new Gun,I would try both and go from there,then try to find tune after he's got a few dozen under his belt
I got some 105gr.GC boolits for the 243 shoot me a address If you want to try a few they are ready to load,I've got a pair of T.C. Encores in 243 & 308 to do the same thing with,but I'm keeping these two for myself ho-ho-ho and all that:bigsmyl2:

[newton]

Thanks old fart. If I ever finish with these projects I might take you up on it.

It is oversized, but I knew it before I bought it. Lol. Honestly though, working up an OAL last night gave me good promise. One thing is this boolit fits the throat spot on.

[newton]

Got out and did my testing this past Saturday. Some things I learned from it.

1. It pays to have a Chronograph setup and fire all shots through it.
2. It would be nice to have a spotting scope
3. Primers are not always a good sign of over pressure

This being a new setup for me(gun is actually for my boy) I was starting from scratch even with the scope. I had bore sighted it and knew I was on paper though. I first started with the rounds he will be using hunting. I am a BIG cast fan, and only shoot it in my 30-30. But I had a box of Sierra 150 grain game kings from a project for another guy and decided he could use up the rest for his hunting in order to take full advantage of the power of the 308.

I had IMR 4320 on hand and saw in the sierra data that it was next to the accuracy load powder they listed. So I loaded up some with 42, 43, 44, and 45 grains. I was somewhat concerned about the use of military brass, and how they say to back off 1-2 grains, with my 45 grain loads. So I shot the others and saw that I was inline with what their velocities show - unless their velocities are taken right at the muzzle. My chrony was set 10' away. After shooting the 44 grain loads the primers were very flat, but with velocities what they were and cases coming out fine I tried the 45 grain loads. They flattened the primers VERY much, but cases came out good and velocity was inline - not to mention that the 45 grain load gave me a hair over 1" group.

155196

155197

After the scope was set I then started testing for his normal plinking rounds. I tried both Unique and IMR4227. Lee 312-160-2R, gas check, powder coated, sized .310", being engraved by the lands(sometimes using a little force to close action, but not anything hard).

Unique velocities.
11gr - 1459, 1452, 1450, 1443, 1452 - Under 1" group with 1 single flier low. I tried this combo again and got this.
1463, 1457, 1450, 1458, 1461 - Under 1" group with 2 fliers high. This load shot ~20" low and left POA.

12gr - 1541, 1527, 1528, 1526, 1521 - Group started to open up from here on out. One thing I noticed with the Unique loads was how consistent the velocities were compared to the 4227 loads. This is also the point where I was wishing I had a spotting scope so that I could have verified the fliers were the higher/lower velocity ones. There was one time, with the 4227, that I actually could tell that one groups flier was indeed a significantly different velocity. But without actually going down after each shot it was hard to distinguish the hits in the scope from 100 yards away.

13gr - 1612, 1607, 1621, 1602, 1611

14gr - 1692, 1679, 1694, 1690, 1689 - Groups just got larger, so there was no need in going any further.


IMR4227 velocities. I was not sure where to start, or how high to go, so I had 50 cases primed and decided to start around 2 grains under max listed and go down from there(I actually shot them from lower to higher though). I had interesting results, and could spend a lot of time and powder testing these. One thing I did, also with the Unique loads, was to pull a bore snake through after each 5. With the 4227 loads it always caused the first shot to be a flier and some times a significant velocity difference. Also, starting low the groups printed left of POA, but slowly worked their way to the center about the 20gr mark and then veered right at the 25 gr mark.

17gr - 1453, 1498, 1534, 1475, 1486 - one flier and 4 grouped within 1"

18gr - 1623, 1610, 1572, 1588, 1587 - unfortunately most of these rounds hit a dang limb in front of my target. I should have made my POA higher for these lower loads, but I learned after this.

19gr - 1651, 1682, 1659, 1660, 1646 - this group was strung vertically 2 1/2" but only 1" wide.

20gr - 1729, 1689, 1695, 1717, 1726 - this one was the most interesting of them all. I had three shots touching each other, and the other two were an inch low and to the left - also touching each other. I think that in the future I will play with this some more. But it could have been a fluke.

21gr - 1794, 1786, 1778, 1773, 1770 - this group was open, no good.

22gr - 1892, 1890, 1839, 1871, 1804 - this group was strung vertically, and I actually could tell that the lower velocity rounds were hitting lower. I have to wonder if the velocities were more consistent with the use of a filler they might be a good group. The horizontal spread was only 3/4".

23gr - 1905, 1926, 1907, 1907, 1907 - no, these did not actually have the same velocity. This was the point my chronograph decided to quit reading and I had to cycle power to it. The group tightened though, and actually looked like a group. About 1 1/2"

24gr - 1931, 1964, 1945, 1941, 1976 - I had one flier out of the group, the rest were around 1 1/4". Tighter, better looking than 23gr.

25gr - 2020, 2027, 2001, 2009, 1994 - The group was more open, right at 2 1/4".

26gr - 2066, 2123, 2067, 2073, 2081 - This group opened up even more. So being my last I did not try anything hotter. I do remember someone talking about having a lul of sorts in this area/velocity, with tighter groups on either side of it. I might try a couple grains hotter just to see, but I am interested in plinking loads after all.

One thing I can say for sure. Other than the clean bore fliers, this gun seems to shoot very well. I know most guys will say that 3" groups at 100 yards is pathetic, but considering the velocity range that I tried these at, and no groups were over 3", I have to say that says something. Does to me at least, but I could be bias with the hard time I just had with the 243. This was the first firing for the brass also, so i would be curious how things do now that the brass has been formed some. I just neck sized the next batch(kind of hit the shoulder also), so we shall see.

Honestly, I have not decided what to do yet. I will probably end up with using Unique, but may just shoot up the 4227 first even if its not the best. I really am curious about the 17 and 20 grain groups.

Hope this helps someone. I'll update if I get more info, but for now I cant be shooting this gun that much since my boy would eventually catch on to whats happening. After Christmas, he and I will spend some good quality time casting and loading. I cannot tell you how much I am excited about that. Before now he did not have a gun of "his own". I think now it will mean something more than just time spent with Dad - not that its a bad thing in and of itself though.

Feel free to ask any questions. I am sure I probably left something out.

[leadman]

Unless I am shooting to obtain the very best accuracy I set the boolit to be off the lands by a couple of thousands. The boolits will sometimes have a little different profile due to the alloy, casting temp, etc. The distance back from the lands keeps the boolit from sticking in the lands and pulling out of the case if it has to be removed without firing. Also on a single shot there is usually some type of mechanism to prevent the gun from firing if the action is not locked up tight.
You do not mention what alloy or BHN you are using but I found that for higher velocity loads should be around 18 bhn. Powder coating of coating with Hi-Tek changes this slightly. For velocities over 2,000 fps I like to have an alloy around 20 to 22 bhn. For loads around 2,500 fps and over I like around 30 bhn. Thirty-two bhn has allowed me to shoot Hi-Tek coated 22 cal. boolits with Hi-Tek to over 3,600 fps.
In Richard Lee's Second Edition manual there is a very good section on boolit strength versus pressure and well worth reading.

I have shot the tumble lube version of that boolit over 2,500 fps with excellent accuracy (moa and less). To do this I inspect and weight sort them. For general use I weight sort so a group is in the same weight range, say 160 to 160.9grs. When I get anal I sort to plus or minus .25grs. (160 to 160.5grs). Twenty two caliber I sort to .25grs spread (55 to 55.25grs).

I think you have a good idea of what is practical in your sons' gun and enjoy the time spent together refining the loads. Merry Christmas.

[newton]

They were for sure seating into the lands with different pressures. I think it might have something to do with the powder coat, but I could be wrong. They were not seated deep enough to cause any stuck boolits though. That is one thing I would not want for his gun. Also, I did apply a slight crimp, more so just to remove the case belling. This particular boolit has a very thick nose, and to seat it into the case far enough to be off the lands the gas check would be below the neck. While I shoot some heavy boolits like this in my 30-30, I decided not too in this gun. Besides, from the hard time testing I had with the .243 and finding out that it liked being snug in the lands, I figured this gun would do well also.

As far as BHN, that is my next tool on the list to get. But, I am using WW with some lino letter sticks mixed in, then water dropping them. They are pretty hard, but soft enough to be engraved by the seating stem. One thing I did not do is weight sort them. But for plinking rounds I figured that would not matter. When it comes time to reload with him I'll show him all about all of it and it will be interesting to see how precise he wants to get. For the most part I am a very detail kind of guy when I want to be, but have learned over the years that sometimes the time it takes for things is not worth it in the end.

When the jacketed rounds run out, then we will start looking for a heavy load for cast boolit hunting. I have a good heavy boolit mold we will try first, but I'll let him see if he wants to try another. It will be at that point we will start being more detailed for sure in hopes of getting them to fly up around that 2500 fps mark.

The gun does have a safety feature that does not allow the hammer back unless its a full lock up. That only happened a hand full of times during the testing, but all it takes is a quick snap of the action to get it to function. With those loads I saw absolutely no sign of high pressure, which I am not near anyways, so I have no worries. I think the powder coat is a tad slicker than lead and it would have to be jammed into the lands quite a bit in order to pull the boolit out of the case if a round was taken out without being fired.

[HangFireW8]

Newton,

Not only are primers not always a good sign of overpressure, sometimes flat primers are not a sign of overpressure at all. Sometimes they mean oversizing of the shoulder.

The primer backs out first and then the case expands backward over it. If it had time to mushroom a bit or you are using military brass with slightly non-cylindrical primer pocket, you can end up with a very flat primer at safe pressures.

[newton]

I can tell you that this brass does not have uniform pockets, or my primer seater is messed up. But they are definitely funky. I'm going to be loading some more 243 soon so I shall see.

I chalked it up to the brass being new/not fired in my gun. They still show the increase in pressures, but at the top I can see not only going by them.

[HangFireW8]

I just realized you are probably talking about a break action 308. Any flexible action like that can give you flat primers. That plus military brass and their primer pockets. Even swaged they are, um, lumpy.

[Motor]

newton, I use the tumble lube version of that boolit. I size mine .311" basically because that's what size die I had when I started using them in 30-30. However they work very good for me that size.

I haven't used them in .308Win yet but I do in 7.5x54Mas which is very close in size to the .308Win.

I'm using 18gr of 2400. My boolits are powder coated and gas checked. I made a trim die to flat nose the boolits. With a .180" diameter flat point the boolits hit water filled jugs with a lot more force. It's even noticeable at 100 yards. I haven't had a chance to chronograph the load yet or get a shot at a deer with it.

Without the flat point the boolits act almost like FMJs on the jugs.

My boolits with flat nose and gas check still weigh 168grs. Without the flat nose they are just over 170grs.

Motor

[Motor]

I forgot to mention: Since you are working up your loads you don't to worry about military brass capacity. But if you establish a good load in the military brass you may need to re-work it some if you switch to commercial brass.

I use a lot of military and commercial brass in all 3 popular calibers. Only 7.62x51 and .308Win have differences in case capacity and its not always true.

The "normal" thing to do is to weigh fully prepared casings without primers. Theoretically a case that weighs more will have less capacity than one that weighs less. Some will argue that this is not accurate and they have a valid point but weighing casings is not a waste of time and can give you a reasonable idea about which casings may have more or less capacity.

Motor

[newton]

I just realized you are probably talking about a break action 308. Any flexible action like that can give you flat primers. That plus military brass and their primer pockets. Even swaged they are, um, lumpy.

Good to know. Thanks for the info.

[newton]

newton, I use the tumble lube version of that boolit. I size mine .311" basically because that's what size die I had when I started using them in 30-30. However they work very good for me that size.

I haven't used them in .308Win yet but I do in 7.5x54Mas which is very close in size to the .308Win.

I'm using 18gr of 2400. My boolits are powder coated and gas checked. I made a trim die to flat nose the boolits. With a .180" diameter flat point the boolits hit water filled jugs with a lot more force. It's even noticeable at 100 yards. I haven't had a chance to chronograph the load yet or get a shot at a deer with it.

Without the flat point the boolits act almost like FMJs on the jugs.

My boolits with flat nose and gas check still weigh 168grs. Without the flat nose they are just over 170grs.

Motor


Yea, this is the tumble lube version also. I also thought of making something that I can trim the noses. Would love to see pictures of your setup or a good description. Eventually he will run out of jacketed bullets and then it will be cast boolits from then on out, unless he wants to load jacketed later in life.

[sundog]

I got that mould to make boolits for SIL's SKS, but have not gotten around to loading any for it yet (loaded some Hdy purple tip 124s that shot way good though). Anyway, after casting a bunch of them I was pondering the shape and weight and thought, "hey, these need to be tried in a .308". Loaded some over 12 and 14 grains of Herco and shot them in a 700 SV (12 twist) and they shot like a dream! They were dipped loobed in 60/40 alox/JLFW, run thru a honed out Lee push thru die coming out at .311, and redipped. Gonna continue this boolit in .308 with other powders, as it looks VERY promising. Gonna try it in the '06, too. I use a lot of 4227, so the data posted is appreciated.

Only problem I had was the GCs would not fully seat by hand. I had to set up a Lyman 450 with a .311 H&I die and GC seater to get the checks fully seated. Extra step, but worth it.

Newton and others, keep posting results, this is a good thread.

[newton]

Yea, I have to say they are a good boolit for the 308. I am going to be shooting again this afternoon unless something else comes up. I am going to shoot the 4 best grouping loads I had and then make my final decision of what to load up for Christmas based on that. Then, later next year, my boy and I will play with seeing just how accurate this thing can be.

[s mac]

I can tell you that this brass does not have uniform pockets, or my primer seater is messed up. But they are definitely funky. I'm going to be loading some more 243 soon so I shall see.

I chalked it up to the brass being new/not fired in my gun. They still show the increase in pressures, but at the top I can see not only going by them.

If it's the brass I sent you, the primer pockets were swadged, but sometime a ring of the primer crimp remains, take a utility knife and trim the ring a bit. You can see the ring, and can make the primers tough to start in the pocket.

[newton]

If it's the brass I sent you, the primer pockets were swadged, but sometime a ring of the primer crimp remains, take a utility knife and trim the ring a bit. You can see the ring, and can make the primers tough to start in the pocket.

Its not that brass. I went ahead and bought some new stuff in order to load the full power loads. I like to keep track of how many times full power loads are shot in a particular piece of brass. The brass you sent actually seats the primers easy. I think it may be my press. I am not sure how to check it just yet. For now I just am rotating them and seating the primer again.

I have a handy dandy Lyman hand reamer, and I was removing quite a bit of the sharp edges from this other brass, when I picked up one of the cases you sent the reamer just dropped in and there was no need to remove anything.

[s mac]

Good deal, the brass I sent was once fired, so you can track it also.

[newton]

I got out last night to do some testing. I am glad I did because two of the loads I was thinking of loading up for him turned out to be the worst two tested last night.

155322

Left to Right:

11gr Unique, 17gr 4227, 20gr 4227, 24gr 4227

I did not set up the chronograph this time as I was just wanting to see what the groups would be like. The difference between the last tests and this one was the brass had been fired in this gun now, and I only sized the neck(just barley touching the shoulder). I am thinking about going ahead and getting a neck sizing die instead of using the FL sizer screwed out, but I am not sure it would make that much difference.

I also did weigh the bullets out and grouped them within .2 grains of each other. This is the same batch of bullets that were shot in the original tests, so the alloy hasn't changed.

The one high shot on the third(20grain) load is where I forgot to adjust my scope.....so I had to run back to the shop and load another round to cure my OCD. Even though, if you were to move that hit straight down the amount I adjusted the scope, it would be dead in that group. The squares on the paper are 1" squares.

The random shots on the right(24grain) load I cannot explain. One of the high shots happened when I caught my wife walking outside out of the corner of my eye just as I was about to pull the trigger. But the other two I have no clue. I did load up a couple more of this one just to see, but one of those was high. I really had high hopes for this load, and it was one of the best during the testing, but I don't like that randomness.

So needless to say, it looks like 17 grains is going to get put into production. Cant beat 1" groups at 100 yards with cast boolits for a day of fun! 20 grains just missed out by 1/4" - so that previous 3 hole touching was a fluke. The 17 grain load hits right at 20" low from the zero for the hunting load(150 grain Sierra - 2750 fps).

One thing that is interesting is how far left the lower loads shoot, and how they move right with higher velocity.

[quilbilly]

do you get that 1850 fps with your 19gr of 2400?
Closer to 1900 FPS.