muzzleloader "purists "

[cbashooter]

Why in this dicipline do guys try to portray themselves better than others because they are "purists" and only shoot..real black,flintlock, smoothebore,all American hand made guns? Yet I doubt all the parts on these guns were in any way made in the traditional manner.when a subject about substitute powder comes up they always seem to tell all the horrors and why they use only the "holy black".If a new guy has a cva with synthetic stock caplock and some triple seven,more power to him.fun will be had don't
Put the guy down.your fun with what you decide is the only "real way" to enjoy the sport has nothing to do with others persuit of fun with muzzleloaders.

[Lonegun1894]

I understand both sides of this one, so I guess I am somewhere in between. Now before I ruffle too many feathers, I am glad to see new shooters get into this hobby of ours, regardless of what weapon they choose. My problem comes in when people try to blow a bunch of smoke. Here is what I mean, I started with a CVA caplock St. Louis Hawken .50, which we all know isn't a historically correct copy of anything that has ever been found that was actually made by the Hawken brothers. What it was, was a affordable way to try this side of the shooting sports, and not gamble a months or more pay on something I didn't know if I would like. Since then, I have acquired several other more historically correct muzzleloaders, and yes, I use "holy black" in all of them, and most are flint, and a couple are smoothbore. With one exception, none are "correct", and even that one isn't an exact copy of any museum piece. No matter what, none of us, regardless of how obsessed we get with this, are truly purists. In my case, regardless of if I am shooting my flintlock smoothbore or my AR, I drove my truck to the range, I did not walk or ride a horse. If there is someone there with a ML, I will help if asked, but will usually try to stay out of the way unless asked. Having said that, it does get under my skin when someone shows up with an inline, or even a plastic stocked side-lock, and starts pronouncing that their weapon is identical to what was used during the American Revolution, or the War of Northern Aggression. Use your equipment to the best of your ability, and above all else enjoy it (safely), but be honest about what it is or isn't. There isn't any one right way, so teach or educate when asked/needed, but encourage others. Maybe I'm just odd, but to me, I have little interest in sitting with a book and memorizing dates, but just can't get enough or learning how and why things were done, and the weapons involved are just another of the tools that keep my interest going and keep me learning. And the more I learn, the more I want to learn.

[triggerhappy243]

HERE IS A THOUGHT. I have 3 renegades. two are 54's and one is a 50. they are not authentic. I dont care. If I cared that much............ I would have a lathe, a rifling machine and all the tools to build a genuine authentic Hawken. and horses to power the machinery.

[Tar Heel]

I believe it's because the "spirit" of the primitive season (with its associated equipment) has been corrupted with "modern" equipment so some can hunt for another two weeks with scoped rifles and cross bows.

I don't care for the modern in-line stuff. I prefer the more primitive and historical stuff. If you want modern, buy a Remington 700 .30-06 and be done with it. Harvest (slay) your food more efficiently if that's the game.

There is purity of purpose with the use of the historical tools like a flintlock and caplock. I don't think anyone is trying to "portray themselves better than others". They may be attempting to enlighten users of more modern equipment to try the older equipment and enjoy the discipline in its pure form.

[Lonegun1894]

Triggerhappy,
I think you just hit the nail on the head! You are happy with your equipment, I am happy with mine, and hopefully cbashooter is happy with his. I could care less if you approve of my gear or I approve of yours, because frankly, I have no responsibility to keep you happy and you have no responsibility to make me happy. And if the purists have an issue, well, there was slight variation even in military "standard issue" weapons, which were supposed to be as close to identical as possible. This gets even more blurred when we get into civilian guns, cause there was variation in the guns made by a single gunsmith, and they were different from the ones made by the gunsmith a county over, or a state over, etc. So the only way to have something that is perfectly historically correct is to make an exact copy of a museum piece, and then you are limited to the exact location and time of manufacture of said weapon, which may have been repaired (changed) at some point in time, and things just get worse from there. So use whatever you like.

As to what you just said, Tar Heel, perfect example. I personally don't like inlines, because I consider them to be just another single shot rifle when you use modern ignition and a scope. If someone wants to use one in a general firearms season, by all means, but not in a primitive weapons season. Having said that, if the hunter in question is using a weapon that is legal as per the regs as written, well, change the regs if it is that much of a problem, but leave the hunter alone, because we all try to get some form of advantage when we can. If the regs change and the hunter breaks the law, then they are a poacher and I have nothing for them, but will support them as long as they are playing by the rules--even if they don't do things the way I do.

[swathdiver]

What's the point of getting into black powder if one's going to use plastic stocks, inlines, and fake black powder? To extend one's hunting opportunities/season? That's the reason I figure why most folks buy inlines.

Why buy fake BP when the real stuff is available but might take a little more effort to acquire? I figure they're too lazy and or ignorant and just buy what's in front of them at the store, same with a plastic stocked traditional style ML; at first anyways.

I only power my hand made soft lead round balls with real black powder. Some guns were made in the USA, most in Europe and if I live long enough, will supplant the Spanish and Italian guns with more authentic arms made by Americans or, God willing, by my own hands.

To each his own. [smilie=s:

[Dryball]

So, what would you all say to the person that has both a historically accurate flinter and a modern smokeless inline? I say to each their own. I own both and use both legally. I also rondezvous. I don't personally use substitute BP but know others that do because they are too far away from places that have "real black". Who cares what people think. After all, this isn't grade school anymore....quit being snobs. This isn't the pit

[NC_JEFF]

Guys a lot of us buy our first ML because we want to either try muzzle loading, expand our shooting options or, it was a great deal when we bought it. I personally have a traditions Kentucky rifle built from a kit and i think it is more fun to shoot than anything else I own and don't want to spend 5 times the money for the same experience. I use Pyrodex because its easily available. I don't even know where to find real black powder but I enjoy the rifle just the same. Should the exact powder we use really be judged by others. I don't judge anyone using powders other than Bullseye in their 45ACP loads. Most of us just truly enjoy shooting our weapons regardless of historical correctness. I appreciate those who take the extra time and effort to be historically correct or more pure to their particular weapon but we can't all do that. Let's just enjoy muzzleloading in whatever way is best for each of us individually.
I do agree that modern inline ML rifles do not belong in the primitive weapons category either. A few pellets of Pyrodex, a saboted 44 mag XTP all touched off with a primer........is that really primitive?

That's my 2¢ worth, to you all, thanks for your being on the forum

[dondiego]

If you have to ask.........

[aspangler]

I see both sides of the picture too. Having said that I have both an inline and 3 side lock .50's. The inline is for sale. I also have a .32 that has a barrel made by hand in the 1800's. The stock I made myself from maple. The lock is a reproduction of one that is of the same period as the barrel. The open sights are hand made by me. It has only had real black shot in it because that is the only fine powder I have. I bought 10 pounds at one time to water down the haz mat fee. Half was fffg and half was ffg. I also get better groups with real stuff. Just my 2 cents worth.

[fouronesix]

Why in this dicipline do guys try to portray themselves better than others because they are "purists" and only shoot..real black,flintlock, smoothebore,all American hand made guns? Yet I doubt all the parts on these guns were in any way made in the traditional manner.when a subject about substitute powder comes up they always seem to tell all the horrors and why they use only the "holy black".If a new guy has a cva with synthetic stock caplock and some triple seven,more power to him.fun will be had don't
Put the guy down.your fun with what you decide is the only "real way" to enjoy the sport has nothing to do with others persuit of fun with muzzleloaders.

Just petition your state wildlife commission to open whatever big game season for single shots, call it a "primitive weapons" season, get a Ruger #1 in 7 mag, scope it and be done with all the pretense. Or rig the same type gun to load from the muzzle with smokeless powder and modern bullets, call it a muzzleloader to weasel into a legal loop hole and go for it. It's little wonder why many have quite hunting and those who have never hunted look at all this from the outside and shake their heads in silence. The post about…. "If you have to ask". certainly seems to apply.

[rodwha]

On a traditional muzzleloader forum some of the older gents were discussing how the traditional ways were dying out, that new and younger faces weren't showing up to replace the older guys on their way out. But then these same guys talked about lambasting the younger guys at the range because they were using an inline or using substitute powders, or even projectiles other than a patched ball with gadgets they bought at a big box store. And of course the fellow's on the forum get it even worse.

It seemed fairly unintelligent to me that they needed it explained to them that their attitudes and snobbery were one reason the traditional would die off. Seriously? Who's going to listen to some stranger berating them?

It was explained to them that people are more likely to listen and become interested if instead they'd simply allow it to be what it is and that with time and better yet opportunity to shoot and try more traditional means would get more people interested and involved.

My Lyman Deerstalker has a recoil pad and fiber optic sights, and I put a modern sling on it with loops that can hold precharged powder containers. Ilike it. But I mostly shoot patched balls I cast or the Lee REALs I cast using either Triple 7 or Olde Eynsford.

I dont care care much for the I lines and also don't believe they should be allowed in the muzzleloader season. But as lon as its legal...

On that forum is a fellow whom I've been gettin into heated discussions with for about 2 years now. He's one of those who lambast people for their non traditional ways or for doing it any other way but his. Yet he shoots in matches using mouse fart loads with cereal grains to top it off. He says anyone who doesn't shoot their pistols in a manner that's the most accurate, such as his load, doesn't deserve to own or use those guns. He hates the fact I load mine with 30 or 35 grns and home cast bullets because it's what I found to be the most accurate in a useful load as I use mine for sidearms durin hunting and require enough power to feel confident that they'll do their job. These guns shouldn't even be allowed for hunting according to him, yet with these loads I'm getting no less than .45 ACP performance (likely around 500 ft/lbs with my Ruger) and I'm able to keep all shots in the black (3-3.5") at 15 yds offhand.

In all that time I've not noticed more than maybe one post in which he was helpful or constructive in his replies/comments, and it just seems a shame he's still a participating member there as he adds nothing of value. It is the people that behave like that that will cause traditional ways to die out or be lorded over the rest.

[cbashooter]

My original post had nothing to do with hunting.I was Talking about the "fly fisherman"
attitude. Personally I dont shoot In lines but I do shoot substitute powder and real black powder. My flintlocks use bp.I don't prefer one type over the other in caplocks. I find some of the more modern substitutes to be quite good. But then again I shoot three to four days a week most often, I don't just sit there and admire the looks of my "superior" guns. I find the elitist attitude tends to be with the guys in the forums that are averaging from 3 to 7 posts a day. How much Shooting can they really be doing?

Well put rodwha.

[Boaz]

It's all about history . If you don't know the history associated with the old firearms (the many) and it is meaningless to you to appreciate the older style guns . Modern technology and black powder had to meet and inlines are the result .

I enjoy history and like the older firearms because of it . I never put down what someone on prefers though .

[Hannibal]

I understand both sides of this one, so I guess I am somewhere in between. Now before I ruffle too many feathers, I am glad to see new shooters get into this hobby of ours, regardless of what weapon they choose. My problem comes in when people try to blow a bunch of smoke. Here is what I mean, I started with a CVA caplock St. Louis Hawken .50, which we all know isn't a historically correct copy of anything that has ever been found that was actually made by the Hawken brothers. What it was, was a affordable way to try this side of the shooting sports, and not gamble a months or more pay on something I didn't know if I would like. Since then, I have acquired several other more historically correct muzzleloaders, and yes, I use "holy black" in all of them, and most are flint, and a couple are smoothbore. With one exception, none are "correct", and even that one isn't an exact copy of any museum piece. No matter what, none of us, regardless of how obsessed we get with this, are truly purists. In my case, regardless of if I am shooting my flintlock smoothbore or my AR, I drove my truck to the range, I did not walk or ride a horse. If there is someone there with a ML, I will help if asked, but will usually try to stay out of the way unless asked. Having said that, it does get under my skin when someone shows up with an inline, or even a plastic stocked side-lock, and starts pronouncing that their weapon is identical to what was used during the American Revolution, or the War of Northern Aggression. Use your equipment to the best of your ability, and above all else enjoy it (safely), but be honest about what it is or isn't. There isn't any one right way, so teach or educate when asked/needed, but encourage others. Maybe I'm just odd, but to me, I have little interest in sitting with a book and memorizing dates, but just can't get enough or learning how and why things were done, and the weapons involved are just another of the tools that keep my interest going and keep me learning. And the more I learn, the more I want to learn.

I recently became interested in side lock muzzleloaders myself, flintlocks in particular. I have been contemplating building a rendition of an American Long Rifle to be exact. But the biggest thing that has caused me to rethink the project is the 'authenticity' debates.
Unless, as has been observed and stated above, one takes multiple pictures and builds an exact replica of a display piece, then the rifle is apparently destined for as much scorn as costume jewelry at a political fundraiser?
Or am I wrong about that?
And how does someone build an 'authentic' rifle without a coal forge and period tools? And aside from copying the display pieces, how does the builder know his rifle will be accepted once finished?

I apologize if my questions start a dispute. I truely am interested in building a rifle. But I'm not going to attempt such a project until I understand the 'rules'. If anyone can explain them or where to look for them, I would appreciate your insight.

Upon the recommendation of another, I have a copy of The Gunsmith Of Grenville County. At the moment, this is my sole muzzleloader reference. Thanks, and I hope this doesn't hijack the thread.

[Lonegun1894]

Try these two places. Lots of info, and lots of guys willing to help, but also a few that you will just have to ignore (like any other forum). Read and ask questions, and these people will have most if not all the answers you need. I have the same book you do, and it is a great resource.

http://www.americanlongrifles.com/

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php

[M-Tecs]

It never cease to amaze me on the lack of tolerance or understanding that some express on this issue. None of us shoot muzzleloaders because we have to. We do it as a sport. We can judge others on legality and safety but beyond that it really isn't anyone else's business on how THEY enjoy to pursue THEIR sport.

Personally I enjoy most types of hunting, shooting and firearms but since OP asked about "muzzleloader purists" I will keep my comments limited to that. Some have very real attitudes towards others that do not share their vision of when a proper point in history is acceptable. I can understand some of it from the history buff's point of view but beyond that most of it is just hypocrisy.

I have been lucky enough to shoot a hand canon, a matchlock, a wheel lock, flint locks, percussion riles & handguns, a muzzle loading canon and variety of 209 inlines including smokeless. All except the 209 inlines have historical significance but they all have their place. For muzzle loading powders I am currently shooting real black, Buckhorn 209 and smokeless. Only one is historically accurate but again they all have their place.

Whether it's a rendezvous, BP competition or hunting as long as someone is operating safely and within the rules/laws I do not understand the outright snobbery expressed by some.

I am aware that some of the attitude is a carry over from"primitive hunting season" verses a muzzle loading season. Most states no longer have a "primitive hunting season". I wished it had stayed that way. I worked to keep the "primitive hunting season" limited to sidelocks with loose powder and lead bullets but we lost that battle. That seems to be the trend with some states even switching to single shot rifles. Again I think this is a mistake but if the state allows it it's not my place to look down on those that do.

[Fishman]

The range of muzzleloader designs are no different than the range of modern gun designs. Semi-auto, bolt, pump, lever, single shot. Same goes for handguns. Those that choose to explore one design exclusively are welcome to it. I like to try many different designs and have been fairly successful in that endeavor. Accordingly, I have inline and sidelock black powder guns and like them both very much. New shooters with one gun should be welcomed as Rodwha pointed out so well. Sometimes gun owners are our own worst enemies.

Taken to its logical conclusion, a wheel lock is too modern for some and if you don't make your own black powder including the raw ingredients, you are a poser.

[Squeeze]

For years i used sidelocks. I never cared much about playing dress up or reenacting anything, now I have many inlines, and several custom (smokeless capable) inlines. I rarely use the sidelocks anymore, and even gave away or sold most. About the only ones I kept were .36 and smaller caliber. They are hard to find inline. I laugh at the guys who spew the "purist" attitude over their modern computer. It the loudest of that bunch that keeps the new recruits out of their "camp"

[rfd]

lots of dependencies, starting with one's brain/mindset.

some folks, like me, are into the history of the muzzleloader and prefer to start at its "modern" beginning, the flintlock of the 18th century and all its associated aesthetics and accoutrements.

some folks just wanna hunt, bring home the meat, could care less what they hunt with and get into those inline zip guns to be legal for their muzzleloader hunt season.

and though not to appear a purist, there are instances where technically the holy black is the better performer over subs. and there are other contingencies to observe which may dictate the better way of doing things and what materials to use.

it's all good as long as it's fun, n'est pas?

[irishtoo]

i believe the term used is "stitch counter" it is a derogatory term used by the less than purely pc folk. if we do not show tolerance to the young and new people trying out muzzleloading this hobby as well as hunting will die out. we must do everything we can to make shooting a fun and enjoyable sport to the youth of today. at the range anyone that expresses a interest in my flintlocks is extended an offer to shoot them. then i load the gun light. we need to get them out from in front of the video games and guide them down this path gently. irishtoo

[rfd]

irishtoo, i'm with you brutha. giving the young'uns a chance to participate, along with teaching and encouragement, is the righteous way to go. helps to keep the old ways and our centuries old heritage legacy alive and not forgotten. pass it on, as was done to me by my elders who've all long gone .....

[Mauser48]

Why I pyrodex so frowned upon?

[rfd]

personally, i don't frown on any sub. if it works well for you or anyone else, that's just awesome. however, all my muzzleloaders are flintlocks and without a doubt, for me at least, quality black powder insures consistent ignition and less fouling. i've never gotten that from pyrodex or any other sub.

[rodwha]

I don't care for the sticky fouling mostly.

Its also more corrosive than BP, which doesn't mean anything if you clean up when done. I read of some who had left their guns for days or more with no issues so when I stayed at the range for far too long and with too many guns I left my rifle overnight. It was a nasty mess that took hours to subdue.

Regardless it it doesn't have the power I'm after as I use it in my revolvers as hunting sidearms.

[Mauser48]

Interesting. I always thought the whole point of pyrodex was to be cleaner. Hopefully my reloading store caries the real stuff, I think they do. What brand is your guys favorite? It looks like swiss and old eneysford seem to be well respected.

[Lonegun1894]

I use just real BP because it simplifies my supplies to use the real thing in all my MLs, caplock and flintlock, than to try to remember what is in my horn at the time. And as has been said, the substitutes don't work reliably in a flintlock. I used to use Goex exclusively, then ordered some Graf & Sons powder, and used that til I ran out, and now just make my own. Results have been the same for me. I got a hold of an old can of Elephant powder that didn't work very well (weak and erratic POI), and have gone through a couple pounds of Pyrodex in my caplock before I went and bought flint locks too, but accuracy wasn't as good and clean up was harder than with BP, so if it ain't broke, why fix it?

[Col4570]

Look at it this way,if BP had not been invented but nitro came first,would the argument still be valid.I personaly Shoot Traditional type Guns with Black Powder but I wouldn't interfere with any other Man/Womans preferences.Shooting Sports need everyone to agree since we are continuously under scrutiny.(and take that Swarofsky scope off your Hawken,it looks like a Sailor on Horseback).

[Hannibal]

Try these two places. Lots of info, and lots of guys willing to help, but also a few that you will just have to ignore (like any other forum). Read and ask questions, and these people will have most if not all the answers you need. I have the same book you do, and it is a great resource.

http://www.americanlongrifles.com/

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php

Thanks very much!

[triggerhappy243]

Now here is something else I will share,. I use pyrodex.... because I can. Because this is what is available. And because I learned how to eliminate all Hang fires. I never let my rifle lay over night dirty.... never. To those who will only use pure black, You will never hear me criticise you or it. Now to those who say(from experience) pyrodex is the most corrosive, It seems that your locations have a lot more ambient relative humidity in the air Than where I live. Pyrodex is hygroscopic..... no argument. More humidity, seems to speed up corrosion. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM......

[Lonegun1894]

Now here is something else I will share,. I use pyrodex.... because I can. Because this is what is available. And because I learned how to eliminate all Hang fires. I never let my rifle lay over night dirty.... never. To those who will only use pure black, You will never hear me criticise you or it. Now to those who say(from experience) pyrodex is the most corrosive, It seems that your locations have a lot more ambient relative humidity in the air Than where I live. Pyrodex is hygroscopic..... no argument. More humidity, seems to speed up corrosion. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM......

Now that makes A LOT of sense, cause humidity tends to be pretty high here in Central Texas.

[rodwha]

I only buy Olde Eynsford when getting BP. I also buy Triple 7. These both give me the same POI with the same charge. The only other powder I've used is Pyrodex.

A fellow did a corrosion test by placing a pile of T7, BP, and Pyrodex on separate steel plates, lit them, and left them in his MO garage for 4 days. T7 barely left a mark, BP had rusted the plate fairly well with surface rust, but Pyrodex was so bad it was very pitted. Humidity levels I guess you'd say are somewhere in the middle.

As an aside I had read that someone used Ballistol to keep rust issues from occurring if time didn't allow for a thorough cleaning, that the idea was that the hydroscopic nature would absorb the oil leaving no room for water pulled from humidity. It made sense and so I tried just to see by leaving my pistol in the garage for 2 days. Worked like a charm.

[Good Cheer]

In reply to post #1, it's just human nature.
People normally erect a standard by which they are excellent in their own estimation and then commence to defend it with whatever mental gymnastics are needed. Same thing with quilters, the aforementioned fly fishers, dog breeders, sour dough bakers...
Uh, except home brewers. Home brewers would never do such a thing.:drinks:

[rfd]

lotta self proclaimed gurus abound on the web, with their know-it-all attitude, which is unfortunate for both them and the poor folks they dupe.

[rodwha]

In reply to post #1, it's just human nature.
People normally erect a standard by which they are excellent in their own estimation and then commence to defend it with whatever mental gymnastics are needed. Same thing with quilters, the aforementioned fly fishers, dog breeders, sour dough bakers...
Uh, except home brewers. Home brewers would never do such a thing.:drinks:

Unless they hold to reinheitsgebot. Actually had a guy give me a virtual sneer for using carafa special (dehusked dark grain) that gives color without all of the roasty characteristics which to him just wasn't proper. Guess he wouldn't approve of my jalapeño blonde ale either... Sometimes painting outside the lines is great!

[Good Cheer]

Oh my, he really would get miffy at my old house standby with oven toasted pearl barley!
Say, what part of Texas are you at? Back about '87 living near the south coast I started playing around with prickly pears... :veryconfu
There are some things I will always miss about the land of my birth.

But about the rights and wrongs of being a traditionalist in muzzleloading, there's no way we can invent something that wasn't tried with muzzleloaders before our parents were hatched so I'm perfectly happy to just keep right on reinventing and learning it all for myself. How could I be more traditional than that?

[Maven]

"lotta self proclaimed gurus abound on the web, with their know-it-all attitude, which is unfortunate for both them and the poor folks they dupe." ...rfd


An excellent call, rfd!

[charlie b]

OK, so why get all upset about what someone else proclaims or brags about? So what if they are "wrong". Just move on.

Now, if someone says that they like a load of 200gn of FFFg onver a 700gn bullet in a .50 cal original rifle, then please do explain that what they are doing is dangerous.

But, if someone shows up with a plastic stock KY rifle and claims it to be authentic, then just walk away. Or if someone has a smoothbore and claims a 1" group at 200yd. So what.

I got into black powder a long time ago cause a C&B revolver kit was what I could afford. Great fun to shoot as well. Used to take it to the local combat revolver course. They guys were even kind enough to not time my reloads :D

Went on to a KY and Hawken kits that I used to hunt with. Great fun. Then I lost interest. Gun hunting. Then got shot at a few times and decided I wanted to be out in the woods when it was less crowded. Got out the Hawken again. Elk season, got an inexpensive inline. By now everyone has an inline, 209 primed, scoped rifle. So, woods are just as crowded. Quit hunting. Have taken up the bow (recruve and longbow) cause maybe that will be better. But, with the crossbows and compounds that is changing too.

I am looking at another muzzleloader kit on a Rigby pattern to get back to just shooting. No, I don't care what anyone else cares about it. I just like to hear what other people have done and how it works for them.

[rfd]

it's misinformation or lack of all the pertinent information, as well as some modicum of peer pressure through bravado and/or narcissistic ego, that can just about have someone make not-so-good decisions, or spend wasteful dollars, and/or create potentially harmful shooting scenarios. i've seen more than a few "purist gurus" have influence over the naive and subject ignorant. that's just a shame for everyone.

[charlie b]

If someone makes a choice based on internet "gurus" then they deserve what they get.

[trebor44]

Wines, single malts, Buckskin Bill (Last of the Mountain Men) or just wear your jeans and shoot what you got and remember snobs and "experts" are not invulnerable, they have the same body functions as the rest of us. Smile and walk away!

[nekshot]

Oh great, now correctness over how we speak and converse over muzzle loading!!

[rfd]

Oh great, now correctness over how we speak and converse over muzzle loading!!

no, not at all.

it's about sharing and helping in a positive manner, with rendered opinions based on one's experiences, then leaving it up to the rendered party to decide.

[OnHoPr]

single malts,

Dang, I know it is early, but a good triple of Glenfiddich 12 sounds like it would hit the spot right about now.

[Muddydogs]

If one wants to go trapping around the woods with there flintier or other side lock that's fine with me, heck they can wear buckskins britches and a coon skin cap for all I care. Me I muzzle load hunt due to the lack of people in the woods at that time and my game laws say I can use an inline with covered ignition, sabots and a 1x scope so I do. I want to get the most bang for my buck. I also own a couple more traditional types of muzzle loaders, even shot a deer with one back in the day and I would still be hunting with them if I had to but since I am in it for the hunt and not the tradition of muzzle loading I shoot the best I can. I also wear modern clothes and boots as well. I'm all in with the modern crowed, no possible bag, plastic speed loaders, rubber things that hold 209 primers and aluminum ram rods. If the fish and game changes the rules about scopes this year like they are talking about and I can have more then a 1X scope on my rifle I will be the first in line to get mine down at the sporting goods store.

Guys are always crying about archery and muzzleloader seasons are supposed to be primitive, well I didn't make the laws about what gear could be used and if it bothers you that much maybe its time to start an origination to bring the traditional back into the primitive seasons because most states are far past primitive at this point. Until then I will be shooting my inline.

[dromia]

Some people just have the need to promote their own self importance.

That only works when people give cognisance to it though.

[fouronesix]

I believe it's because the "spirit" of the primitive season (with its associated equipment) has been corrupted with "modern" equipment so some can hunt for another two weeks with scoped rifles and cross bows.

I don't care for the modern in-line stuff. I prefer the more primitive and historical stuff. If you want modern, buy a Remington 700 .30-06 and be done with it. Harvest (slay) your food more efficiently if that's the game.

There is purity of purpose with the use of the historical tools like a flintlock and caplock. I don't think anyone is trying to "portray themselves better than others". They may be attempting to enlighten users of more modern equipment to try the older equipment and enjoy the discipline in its pure form.

^ Absolutely and historically correct about how and why most of the original "primitive" method big game seasons were established by the States. The current status of the technology and politics of the special interest groups has sadly gone way beyond what anyone agreed to or even envisioned when those regs were established.

…. I'll get into trouble if I say more.

[waksupi]

I just know what works best. I have seen far more ruined inline rifles, than I ever have traditional guns. Generally due to fake powder.

I helped draft the ML laws for Montana around 35 years ago. I don't think anyone involved even knew a modern inline existed, if it did at that time.

[Boogieman]

Hannibal you , might look at Track of the Wolf's website . They have books & rifle kits in all styles Most of the " expert" builders use manfactured parts ,this is not new. alot of the old guns had locks imported from England . We had factories making barrels in this country around 1800. Pick a style you like ,study some pictures of the old gunsmith's work and go to it. There is a far amount of leeway with in each style. No two old guns were the same, even from the same smith. Use quality parts and build it the way you want it. The snobs don't have to like it.

[Good Cheer]

About hunting, just my narrow minded minority opinion but it 'pears to me that there shouldn't be any muzzleloading deer season. A time set aside for hunting with arms that do not use caps or primers? Yeah, that would be a tweaking humdinger. The reason I say that is a percussion rifle with a strong fast twist barrel is just another single shot. It's more trouble to load than a Handi but what else is different?

This has a 16" twist.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/0ShebaA_zpsaa422de7.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/0ShebaA_zpsaa422de7.jpg.html)

It shoots these paper patched.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/40PPAdjustable1_zps00aa161c.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/40PPAdjustable1_zps00aa161c.jpg.html)

What's the difference between that and a 40-60 Winchester except not having a lever on the bottom?

[rfd]

About hunting, just my narrow minded minority opinion but it 'pears to me that there shouldn't be any muzzleloading deer season. A time set aside for hunting with arms that do not use caps or primers? Yeah, that would be a tweaking humdinger. The reason I say that is a percussion rifle with a strong fast twist barrel is just another single shot. It's more trouble to load than a Handi but what else is different?

What's the difference between that and a 40-60 Winchester except not having a lever on the bottom?

the difference is nil. i agree - why bother even having a muzzleloading only season if the spirit of that weapon has been corrupted into a deformed hybrid that acts far more like a cartridge single shot?

[Good Cheer]

Once more with my narrow minded minority opinion, to me it's just whether the individual is accepting the handicap or not. But, one thing is certain, any time gubmint makes a goofy set of rules it is the nature of human beings to flow around it. If caps and primers were banned then electric ignition would become popular! :roll:

[Sensai]

According to Merriam-Webster:
Full Definition of HYPOCRITE1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virtue) or religion

2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
— hypocrite adjective

A great example would be someone who drives an automobile to the range to shoot his flintlock, which is made of modern steels and loaded with "holy black" that was made in a modern factory with modern equipment. Then drives to his modern home and gets on his modern computer and logs into the internet to lambast people who don't do things the historically correct way.

Come on people! get real!:bigsmyl2:

[rfd]

...
A great example would be someone who drives an automobile to the range to shoot his flintlock, which is made of modern steels and loaded with "holy black" that was made in a modern factory with modern equipment. Then drives to his modern home and gets on his modern computer and logs into the internet to lambast people who don't do things the historically correct way.

Come on people! get real!:bigsmyl2:

what's missing is the word "spirit" - the reason for re-enactments, rendezvous', and basically keeping alive the ways of olde tymes in the information age. that's a good thing, over all. but to precisely live today as one did in the 18th century borders on insanity. and yes - to say that one's way is the "correct way" is ludicrous.

[paul s]

Why try to explain why? You ether get it or you don't.

[Hickory]

I think purist is the wrong word, it should have been snob.
Yes, snob. It doesn't matter what you shoot, rifle, pistol or shotgun, or any subcategory in each discipline.
Let's take rifle, because it is the subject here. You have these subcategories;
22lr
Center fire, and this can be divided up in it's own subcategories.
High power
Bench rest
Black powder cartridge
Muzzle loader-caplock, flint and inline.
Hunting rifle
I could name more, but I think you get the picture.
Everyone who shoots whether hunting or target is a snob in his area of discipline. You feel, at least for yourself that you have fallen into a nitch and you are comfortable where you are and are not about to change because it is something you do well and for most part you're a snob.
I know this, because I'm a snob. In the realm of my shooting, I shoot handguns and varmint rifles and could care diddly about a shotgun.
Most people are just like old dogs, weren't not willing to get into any new tricks or patterns that upset who we are.
Purist? No just snobbish.

[Hang Fire]

The states will do most anything to increase revenues, so the inline approvals are just a concocted excuse for generating more of said revenues.

With that said, if one is more comfortable using an inline to obtain more time afield, then by all means, do so.

But I also sincerely believe there will come a time when the antis will declare with the inline's efficiency for hunting and etc., there is no longer a need for cartridge guns.

[Sensai]

My point is that you can take anything to extremes. That doesn't give you the right, or duty, to criticize others for not doing things your way. I think that it's wonderful that there are people who want to dress up in period appropriate attire and use period appropriate replicas for historical reenactments. Most of us don't do that. I also think that people shouldn't have to put up with a lot of static for doing things their own way, as long as it's safe and legal and doesn't hurt anybody else. If you claim that something that you are doing, or using, is period authentic and it isn't then you can expect correction. But you shouldn't be held to a revolutionary war buffs standards if your objective is to provide venison for your family. This mess is just another symptom of the current political correctness age that we live in. People seem to have the idea that they are somehow authorized to run other people's lives because they can do it so much better than the people themselves. I'm just not playing that game! Of course, this is just my opinion, and worth every penny that you paid for it.

[rfd]

it should always come down to respect for one another. that will eliminate any manner of purist snob.

[Hannibal]

Hannibal you , might look at Track of the Wolf's website . They have books & rifle kits in all styles Most of the " expert" builders use manfactured parts ,this is not new. alot of the old guns had locks imported from England . We had factories making barrels in this country around 1800. Pick a style you like ,study some pictures of the old gunsmith's work and go to it. There is a far amount of leeway with in each style. No two old guns were the same, even from the same smith. Use quality parts and build it the way you want it. The snobs don't have to like it.

And in my case, this is what I have trouble understanding. As there wasn't a set 'standard', even among the same gunsmith, I don't understand how 'authenticity' is evaluated. It seems some parts were imported, some made by the gunsmith, but mostly seemed to be governed by availability.
I'll keep looking and studying. Maybe I'll get it sooner or later.

[rfd]

to the trained eye, looking at 18th century arms, while there weren't an specific standards there were origin and artisan styles. for most of us, me included, we don't get down to the minor details of style. and i do agree that availability of barrels and locks played a major factor in the gunsmith's creation.

[Good Cheer]

For me, I'm just happy as I can be to rock and roll with a flinter TC Hawken with a rifled .62 Green Mountain barrel.

[HeadLead]

Been liking my GP.50 flint for many a year now. Never tried subs. BP only, but only cause that's what I was learned. Love the firearm and the accessories. Not particularly concerned if one shoots other styles. It's what you like, you uses it.

Innerested in period clothing to go with my GP and possibles now. Wonder how that will pan out.

Good day.

[OnHoPr]

This has a 16" twist.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/0ShebaA_zpsaa422de7.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/0ShebaA_zpsaa422de7.jpg.html)

It shoots these paper patched.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/40PPAdjustable1_zps00aa161c.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/40PPAdjustable1_zps00aa161c.jpg.html)



Interesting southpaw weapon.

[Newtire]

I went to my range one day as a m/l club was coming there for one of their shoots. Brought my great grandpa's 1850-ish G. Spangler target rifle to shoot & right away one of them offered to buy it. He told me they didn't allow aperture sights so I told them I was just going to shoot down on my end of the range and they could feel free to shoot their own way. He very graciously offered to let me shoot with them the one time but told me I would have to get something with open sights if I wanted to shoot in their matches in the future. I really didn't feel a sense of camaraderie much with these guys. My Ford pickup was even older than his. That group wasn't much fun to play with!

[Boogieman]

And in my case, this is what I have trouble understanding. As there wasn't a set 'standard', even among the same gunsmith, I don't understand how 'authenticity' is evaluated. It seems some parts were imported, some made by the gunsmith, but mostly seemed to be governed by availability.
I'll keep looking and studying. Maybe I'll get it sooner or later.

A good book on the history of the long rifle is The Pennsylvania - Kentucky Rifle by Henry Kauffman. It's for sale on E-Bay . Recreating the American Long Rifle by William Buchele goes through the actual building process step at a time. There are many old rifles that are works of art but many of the orginals were plain working guns long since worn out and had their parts used to build new guns.

[rfd]

I went to my range one day as a m/l club was coming there for one of their shoots. Brought my great grandpa's 1850-ish G. Spangler target rifle to shoot & right away one of them offered to buy it. He told me they didn't allow aperture sights so I told them I was just going to shoot down on my end of the range and they could feel free to shoot their own way. He very graciously offered to let me shoot with them the one time but told me I would have to get something with open sights if I wanted to shoot in their matches in the future. I really didn't feel a sense of camaraderie much with these guys. My Ford pickup was even older than his. That group wasn't much fun to play with!

well, in all fairness, match rules are match rules. that is, assuming it was a match taking place and not just practice shooting where there are far fewer gear rules.

in addition to our rigid gear rule buffalo rifle match, our club also hosts a buffalo rifle match that relaxes the standard firearm, ammunition and sight rules to allow for a wider latitude of participants. both shoots use the same target faces and shooting rules, only the shooting gear is in question.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

According to Merriam-Webster:
Full Definition of HYPOCRITE

1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virtue) or religion

2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
— hypocrite adjective

A great example would be someone who drives an automobile to the range to shoot his flintlock, which is made of modern steels and loaded with "holy black" that was made in a modern factory with modern equipment. Then drives to his modern home and gets on his modern computer and logs into the internet to lambast people who don't do things the historically correct way.

Come on people! get real!:bigsmyl2:


I'd rather be passive smoking than having passive beliefs. Not many people have stated that they don't believe in most of the above, or indeed using modern spectacles or heart pacemakers. There might, I suppose, be the odd hypocritical Amish in the woods. Powder has been made in rather sophisticated factories for a century and a half, and sometimes made as well as anyone does today.

I agree, though, that smokeless powder or pelleted-propellant rifles using plastic-saboted jacketed bullets and scopes, sometimes with many components in common with the manufacturer's cartridge rifle, is rule dodging on a fairly spectacular scale. It isn't rule breaking, and nobody is doing wrong. But there seems a good case for changing the rules. Not that you can get a more accurate rifle the inline way than you can with traditional technology, or a safe one, one with better stopping power. But they bring out a lot more people, including people with more interest in extra days than in muzzle-loading technology. The more handicap you accept, the more you need few people going about and less shots being fired in the woods.

[Knarley]

I'm going deer hunting this year for the first time in many years. I'll be using a TC Hawken that I've had for thirty some odd years, shooting FFFG Goex, and a patched round ball set off with a percussion cap. I'll be hunting with my brother for the first time ever, he'll be using an in-line of some sorts.
I used to do the rendezvous thing, and I don't know anything about inlines. But I do know a little of some of the subs, I shoot APP for cowboy action shooting, and I used Pyrodex ONCE pheasant hunting with a double 10 front stuffer. (I'll never use Pyrodex again, but that's my problem)
I plan on having a good time this coming hunt, and couldn't give a hoot about equipment that is different from mine.
People who have a problem, well, that is THEY'RE problem.
But in the end, if you want to hunt with a flinter, go for it. Same as a cap gun. If an Inline is your thing, knock yer self out.
Just make sure you take a good shot, and be safe out there.

Knarley

[Geezer in NH]

Just petition your state wildlife commission to open whatever big game season for single shots, call it a "primitive weapons" season, .

I would buy into changing to flintlock smoothbore only primitive season.

I had a GM made [Knight] rifle called the Disk gun cost $125.00 with my nephews company discount. Sold it away with out shooting it. I would rather had used the TC renegade caplock I had not shot in 20 years. All I hunted with was flint lock.

[OverMax]

Traditional purist know-it-alls verses Inline close-minded snobs . Its a Teeter Taghter mind set. Some up's some down's. He's right you're wrong. Who cares!! >"Can't we all just get along."_[smilie=s:

[daniel lawecki]

I'm a shooter not a purists if someone in the shooting sport is enjoying himself I'm fine with that. But with a different spin on the topic are the purists using game cameras for deer hunting or the fisherman using depth finders or fish cameras. I have muzzle loaders cap and ball revolvers but with this said. I don't use a lot of the gadgets fishing hunting or shooting I use the KISS program keep it simple stupid. And yes I'm a good with what ever he or she is using in our great sport.:popcorn:

[rfd]

i hear ya, but "getting along" means compromise that sometimes some folks are just not capable of achieving. oh well.

[Gtek]

I would love to reply in truth, but due to the possibility of stepping into a violation with keyboard police I shall refrain. But I would like to extend an offer of if you see me in the woods or on the marsh or at the bench and you do not approve of my equipment, come get you some! We are all brothers in this discipline of whatever we put in whatever pipe and make it go bang. Is anyone familiar with the phrase divide and conquer? What if EVERYBODY liked and had the same, man that sounds like fun. Problem with slinging poo is you always seem to end up with some on you.

[longbow]

There is a big difference between being a purist and a snob. A purist can be doing things the way they used to be done as closely as possible just for the shear satisfaction of doing it and reliving the history. As has been said, unless you build the gun the way the old gunsmiths did, it really isn't historically correct in the true sense. If you are going to go that far then even building a gun totally by hand with tools you built but working under electric lights would negate the historically correct aspect but then that just gets silly doesn't it?

Some people think of me as a purist in that I make and shoot wood bows in competition. But I don't make them to be a purist, I make them because I can and I feel like a kid with a stick and string when I shoot them. I have more fun shooting a bow that I made myself than I do shooting anything else. My bows are not fancy and not historically correct longbows and I shoot alongside people shooting modern recurves, longbows and compound bows... and lately crossbows. They can shoot what they want and I'll shoot what I want.

Same with the flyfishing comment. I flyfish... not to be elitist or even purist, I just enjoy it.

Same philosophy should apply to guns. Few of us build our own guns but then few settlers, mountain men or cowboys made their own guns either. I am betting most didn't cast their own bullets either. Gunsmiths made guns and made them in their own style. So there's something to think about... I read that many Hawken replicas aren't true Hawken clones. I am betting that many styles of guns were copied by other gunsmiths back in the day as well so weren't exact copies but developed into their own style. After all, did the Hawken brothers "invent" the style of gun they made or adapt from a previous design for a different purpose?

Anyway, I am rambling on here.

Purists are not necessarily snobs. Many (probably most) are purists because they get satisfaction from the knowledge and history of our forefathers.

Snobs on the other hand figure they are the only ones doing things right so if you aren't doing what they do you are wrong. They also tend to be controlling type people who wind up one club executives or groups (in my experience anyway). It only takes a few snobs to ruin things for many, many others.

Learn from the purists and don't let the snobs put you off.

My thoughts anyway.

Longbow

[Newtire]

It was mentioned earlier several times about what made up an "original".

When I was a young kid, I bought a smoothbore caplock that had a broken mainspring for $5.00 from a kid who got it from an old guy they bought their house from. It had a single key like a cheap "Hawkens" lookalike but it was very old. No Belgian proofmarks or anything else for that matter. So, who knows what was an original anyway.

When they tell me at the Winnemucca shoot, that I can't use gaschecked boolits though, it's time to find a new group.

[cbashooter]

Wsksupi-

I helped draft the ML laws for Montana around 35 years ago. I don't think anyone involved even knew a modern inline existed, if it did at that time.

I know Montana did his first muzzleloading restricted area and 1950s for the bitterroots.
My late uncle was involved drafting that one.
I don't believe Montana has Muzzleloading specialty seasons? Aren't they just within firearm restrictive units

[Whiterabbit]

Has nothing to do with purity. What about this analogy:

What if you liked shooting deer with slug guns, or say, a 30-30 with cast boolits, then one day found that everyone around you was using whizzbang 30 cal RUM magnums on bipods with super-scopes and sniping away at deer from 400 yards away? It's pretty simple: deer start running away from you when you are 500 yards away.

Makes it hard to take a shot with your dinky 'ol 30-30.

------------

So fast forward to 30-30 season so you got a shot with your "traditional" 30-30 rifle, and someone comes up with whizzbang powder and special bullets for 400 yard shooting with a 30-30 so you can simulate shooting deer at 400 yards with a 300 RUM.

What do you do? Do you cry purist so that you can keep using your old 30-30 and hope the deer by that time still let you get closer than 100 yards away, or do you adapt to the "modern" whizzbang stuff so you can extend your season a little bit more?

(end of analogy)
------------

In CA, everyone likes to think they are a pig sniper with 50mm scopes and whizzbang magnums. Where does that leave you? In public land, it leaves an area clear around you of no 4 legged animals for hundreds of yards. Good luck.

Roundball hunting in black powder season? not in CA, unless you are on private land. (or locked up public land that doesn't count.)

[M-Tecs]

I don't agree. I archery hunting in rifle zones and I don't take over 30 yard shots with archery. I normally take two to three deer a year with archery. I have have my best success late season after the rifle season is over. For your analogy to be correct I shouldn't be able to get that close.

As a long range competitor a 400 yard shot on a deer with good conditions and equipment is a chip shot but I mostly rifle hunt with original trapdoor Springfield or 44/40 original Winchester 1873 rifle. A hundred yard with either rifle is a long shot.

That being said I am using a smokeless muzzle-loader for a early December hunt. I could use my TC Renegade or my very historically correct Rendezvous Hawken rifle but I am in the mood to use the smokeless muzzle-loader.

[cbashooter]

So

"Fake " powder is Pyrodex etc..

Barrel ,lock,hardware etc..made on modern machines is not "fake"

You stock blank cut on an electric bandsaw is not "fake"

Your frizzen hardened with a propane torch and case hardening compound is not "faked"

Your caps of modern chemicals are not "fake"

Why is the powder the enemy of the snob,it's made with modern stuff but no more than the rest of the "traditional " gun you shoot.
And don't tell me it won't shoot ! because I shoot as good with it in many guns as even Swiss will.(not all but many )

[Good Cheer]

No cap or primer would be the way to go.
Maybe have a three weekend long period at seasons end when arms that use caps or primers are allowed, right after the steampunk handicap season.
That way the 300 Mag and other in-line hunters could mop up with the extended reach.
But hey, I've been a productive member of society and therefore do not get to make the rules, so the status quo is not in danger. :-P

[Gtek]

But what if your Model-T kicked back on you and damaged your rock lock thumb?

[waksupi]

I know Montana did his first muzzleloading restricted area and 1950s for the bitterroots.
My late uncle was involved drafting that one.
I don't believe Montana has Muzzleloading specialty seasons? Aren't they just within firearm restrictive units
When Ethel Harding was still a state representative, she came to us to codify the laws for the state, as it was growing in popularity. You are correct that they are used in restricted areas, but are allowed in all areas.

[Sharpsman]

If anyone desires blackpowder it can come from these sources. Can be delivered to your front door!

http://www.goexpowder.com/distributors.html

Personally I don't give a 'hoot 'n hell' what anyone shoots as long as they're having a good time! As I've grown older I've discovered that doing things the old way appeals to me more than getting caught up in a tech race to keep up with the Jones boys! Forty years ago I purchased a .50 TC Hawken model rifle and shot it a while....then let it go to someone that desired it more than I did! Recently the 'urge' struck again and I bought a .54 GRRW Hawken with 1-70" twist and I'm getting back in the game! The younger guys that come into the game with the latest In-Lines MAY....IN TIME....discover that they as well may wish to change over the way our ForeFathers did things but if they don't....I'm gonna keep on having fun doing it my way! We need all the shooters we can get...regardless of what they're shooting!!

[Hang Fire]

...I started with a CVA caplock St. Louis Hawken .50, which we all know isn't a historically correct copy of anything that has ever been found that was actually made by the Hawken brothers. .

I would suggest you do a little historical reading about the Hawken brothers. Their business did not thrive on their big bore mountain rifles alone. They made and relabeled a variety of cheaper firearms (including shotguns) for farmers, local or occasional hunters and etc..

[Lonegun1894]

I know that, Hang Fire, but everything I have found used breech plug with a snail more like the modern TC and Lyman caplocks, while the CVA used a drum, among many other differences. Now general architecture, you're absolutely correct. They made a LOT more than just what they're famous for, and it is very educational and interesting when one really digs into the variety of things they made. Definitely not a "one trick pony" type of shop. But I never found anything that was a exact match in all details, but some came interestingly close.

[Hanshi]

I've been called a "purist" simply because I hunt any and all seasons with (almost exclusively) flintlocks. One of my favorite rifles, though, is a factory percussion in .54; and yes it has killed deer. I don't believe that any possession confers prestige to anyone. Snobbishness in any sport or pastime is uncalled for and causes the "snob" to look/sound ludicrous and laughable. I'm a purist as I gave up modern guns.

My first muzzleloader was acquired 50+ years ago. Only in the past decade and a half have I gone strictly and exclusively BP & muzzleloaders. I use to mix them and rotate modern & primitive. If I am a "purist" it is because flintlocks are all I hunt with; but my percussions also see a lot of exercise on the range and (rarely) in the woods as well. I don't feel handicapped in the woods with modern shooters all around. I chose my own way because I like muzzleloaders; that's it! I also do not dress in any kind of "period" clothing and wear camo like most do. I don't like inlines but do not begrudge them to anybody. I hope they sell a million of them; I just won't buy one.

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt74/hanshi_photo/PICT0586-2.jpg (http://s599.photobucket.com/user/hanshi_photo/media/PICT0586-2.jpg.html)
http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt74/hanshi_photo/33ae6300-ac20-4150-b61f-27fde190966f_zps64fc91a3.jpg (http://s599.photobucket.com/user/hanshi_photo/media/33ae6300-ac20-4150-b61f-27fde190966f_zps64fc91a3.jpg.html)

The challenge is what I like about shooting and hunting with 18th and 19th century technology.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I would give you my opinion, in plain english, but I would rather not be banned here.

In any sport there are the "traditionalists", who choose to do things the way they were originally practiced. They appreciate the oldtimers and how they did things. They want to replicate those old days, and they work hard to develop the skills.

Then, there are people, as in nearly every walk of life, usually newcomers, who espouse the "If they'da had it, they'da used it..." mentality, want shortcuts, and and would prefer not to have to work to develop the necessary skills.

Let me give you a few examples.

Harley-Davidson owners: not the outlaw clubs, but everyday people who owned them, rode them, and did most of their own maintenance. Then, about twenty years ago, what we refer to as "Rubes", Rich Urban Bikers came along. They all had to have expensive customs, shuddered at the thought of riding them more than a hundred miles, and went to rallies in their custom painted color-coordinated motorhomes with thirty foot trailers, and matching paint bikes. They hit a campground about an hour's ride from the rally, roll the bikes out, and "ride" to the rallies. Then, they make the show, craving attention. HD began offering electric start, mostly for these people who did not know, or want to know about easing a piston up to TDC, and having to be able to actually kickstart a big twin. We call them "Poseurs.".

The "Purists" as you refer to them in muzzleloading, want to reconnect with, in largest numbers, the time frame from 1753 (French&Indian War) to 1787 (Revolutionary War). They spend a lot of time researching those early times, and trying to emulate those early settlers in dress and accoutrements. They have gatherings, and attendees are presumed to have a serious interest in the era, or they would not attend. Most of the ladies hand sew their clothing, and that of their husbands and children. There are tradesmen, who produce all the items that would be found in a colonial home. They do not want corner cutters, and get things the easy, and incorrect way. They have rules; rules that are strictly and purposefully written to make it a time consuming and difficult apprenticeship. They don't care to pander to "wannabes". They make you earn your way into their groups. If you drop out along the way because it is too much like work, they don't care.

I will tell you a personal story about a club I belong to. It's called the United States Army Rangers. It dates back to Rogers Rangers founded by his majesty in 1754. I served in Vietnam from August of 1969 to September of 1971. We have reunions. There are Rangers, from a few honored survivors from Merrill's Marauders of WWII all the way to young men who are on active duty. We are all immediately Brothers In Arms, because of a shared, hard earned experience gaining that coveted Ranger Tab, and serving in the companies. It was a major insult when the Army changed the rules and now allows truck drivers, clerks, cooks, even regular Infantry etc, to besmirch our honor by wearing that black beret. The Rangers switched to a tan colored one. I started in a two-story barracks with 95 other candidates. Every day or two, it seemed there were more empty bunks. By week five's end, the top floor and it's 48 bunks were empty and closed off. I was one of twenty-three to earn the Tab.

If you want something, earn it...

Army Sgt & Airborne Ranger Richard Kayser

[Sharpsman]

And a BIG HOORAH for you Sgt Richard Kayser!!

My CONGRATS!

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Thanks. I did not intend to get crossways with anyone, including the original poster, but I believe in working for that status you desire.

Take care all, and God Bless us everone...

Rich

[rfd]

I've been called a "purist" simply because I hunt any and all seasons with (almost exclusively) flintlocks. One of my favorite rifles, though, is a factory percussion in .54; and yes it has killed deer. I don't believe that any possession confers prestige to anyone. Snobbishness in any sport or pastime is uncalled for and causes the "snob" to look/sound ludicrous and laughable. I'm a purist as I gave up modern guns.

My first muzzleloader was acquired 50+ years ago. Only in the past decade and a half have I gone strictly and exclusively BP & muzzleloaders. I use to mix them and rotate modern & primitive. If I am a "purist" it is because flintlocks are all I hunt with; but my percussions also see a lot of exercise on the range and (rarely) in the woods as well. I don't feel handicapped in the woods with modern shooters all around. I chose my own way because I like muzzleloaders; that's it! I also do not dress in any kind of "period" clothing and wear camo like most do. I don't like inlines but do not begrudge them to anybody. I hope they sell a million of them; I just won't buy one.

The challenge is what I like about shooting and hunting with 18th and 19th century technology.

huzzah! well said, sir, and i join with you afield and at the range.

[sharps4590]

As this is mostly opinion allow me to offer mine. First off I believe there is a difference between a "purist" and an "elitist". I consider myself a "purist" in several areas, muzzleloaders being one of them. There was an allusion to the "fly fisherman attitude". Well, that is another area I consider myself a purist. As definitions can become hazy it would seem an offer of my understanding of the two terms in order. To me a purist, in these regards, is one who makes a choice to do something in a particular manner and cares not what others do or what they think of the way he or she does things. An elitist would be the snob so many have mentioned. One who not only looks down their nose at what others do if those things differ from "their superior way" and is generally not bashful about expressing their opinions.

I am a purist. I like doing things the older ways. Heck, I even cut a cord or two of my firewood every year with a one man crosscut saw and am known to head for my woods with nothing but that saw and a double bit axe. Most of my muzzleloaders are flintlocks and none of them, percussion or flint, has ever seen a substitute or synthetic black powder, my fly rods are mostly vintage bamboo and I use a silk fly line on them, many of my cartridge firearms are pre-WWI German drillings, combination guns and double rifles chambered in cartridges that haven't seen the light of day in 100 years or more. Several of them are not Nitro proofed and have only seen black powder since I've owned them . I've invested a considerable amount of time, money and effort into learning about all the above and how to make them work successfully. All the above make me smile. Not dissimilar from my choice of music, big band from the 30's, 40's and early 50's.

Now, that's me. Do I consider myself superior to any? Good grief no! If it's legal and it makes you smile, go for it, I could care less other than to be glad for you. What does get my hackles up is when someone looks at what I'm shooting or fishing with and implies that "oh, you're one of those guys". Now how could they possibly know that simply by the equipment I use? I do resent that implication. To say such a thing puts them into the same category as those they accuse me of being, an elitist.

When it comes to entering a match of any kind. The rules are there. Abide by them or don't shoot. It's nothing to get your shorts in wad over or resent because they won't let you play your way. Everyone is subject to the same rules.

So there is my thoughts. I'm neither a snob nor an elitist but, I do take quite a bit of pride in being what I consider a "purist"...for my own satisfaction, not yours. If "you" are enjoying yourself doing your thing I am very glad for you.

[rfd]

huzzah! to you, too, sharps4590 :goodpost:

[izzyjoe]

Idaho sharpshooter, that was a great post, and thank you for your service to this country! I don't know why everybody can't get a long and have fun like we are supposed to do, but that is way it is, and personally I don't care what other folks do with there time, and money that's their business, I have shot both side locks, and in lines, and I prefer a side lock, but that's what I like. Sometimes at the range if someone is having trouble with a inline ,or sidelock l'll ask if they need help, if they say no, I figure that have it covered and go about shooting, but if they say yes l'll offer to show them what works for me, and down talk them on what they are doing wrong. It's all about having fun, and shooting anything without having trouble is fun. I have found out for myself a lot about muzzleloading, and what works and what doesn't. Pyrodex and 777 are what's available my area, so I've learned to use them and live with them, but one day I was out of town and found some goex, and have never look back. Nothing wrong with the others, but I found out what works for me. I hunt for meat, and enjoy using my T/C hawken, and even though it's old and ugly it serves its purpose each year for me. Have great day, Peace!

[mooman76]

Idaho Sharpshooter, I know what you mean about the Beret. When in the AF we were trying to get a Ammo badge pushed through specifically for members that worked directly with ammunition. Someone got word and turned it into a Munitions Maintenance badge meaning anyone that worked Munitions or maintenance (close to 50%)got the badge. Give it to everyone and it looses its meaning. Not as prestigious as yours of coarse but I get what you mean.

I don't call myself a purist, not even close but I too like the old ways. I just think some of the purists go too far in their thinking. It can go on forever in the way you think but in some ways we are still tied to the modern world. I like to shoot my sidelocks. mostly percussion but when I get more time I want to start getting into flintlock more and hopefully get into a club. I was in a club for awhile but being in the military at the time, I moved to another place. club here so I just shoot when I can.

[Skypilot39b]

As this is mostly opinion allow me to offer mine. First off I believe there is a difference between a "purist" and an "elitist". I consider myself a "purist" in several areas, muzzleloaders being one of them. There was an allusion to the "fly fisherman attitude". Well, that is another area I consider myself a purist. As definitions can become hazy it would seem an offer of my understanding of the two terms in order. To me a purist, in these regards, is one who makes a choice to do something in a particular manner and cares not what others do or what they think of the way he or she does things. An elitist would be the snob so many have mentioned. One who not only looks down their nose at what others do if those things differ from "their superior way" and is generally not bashful about expressing their opinions.

I am a purist. I like doing things the older ways. Heck, I even cut a cord or two of my firewood every year with a one man crosscut saw and am known to head for my woods with nothing but that saw and a double bit axe. Most of my muzzleloaders are flintlocks and none of them, percussion or flint, has ever seen a substitute or synthetic black powder, my fly rods are mostly vintage bamboo and I use a silk fly line on them, many of my cartridge firearms are pre-WWI German drillings, combination guns and double rifles chambered in cartridges that haven't seen the light of day in 100 years or more. Several of them are not Nitro proofed and have only seen black powder since I've owned them . I've invested a considerable amount of time, money and effort into learning about all the above and how to make them work successfully. All the above make me smile. Not dissimilar from my choice of music, big band from the 30's, 40's and early 50's.

Now, that's me. Do I consider myself superior to any? Good grief no! If it's legal and it makes you smile, go for it, I could care less other than to be glad for you. What does get my hackles up is when someone looks at what I'm shooting or fishing with and implies that "oh, you're one of those guys". Now how could they possibly know that simply by the equipment I use? I do resent that implication. To say such a thing puts them into the same category as those they accuse me of being, an elitist.

When it comes to entering a match of any kind. The rules are there. Abide by them or don't shoot. It's nothing to get your shorts in wad over or resent because they won't let you play your way. Everyone is subject to the same rules.

So there is my thoughts. I'm neither a snob nor an elitist but, I do take quite a bit of pride in being what I consider a "purist"...for my own satisfaction, not yours. If "you" are enjoying yourself doing your thing I am very glad for you.

As it should be, enjoy what you enjoy, allow others to enjoy what they enjoy, share your knowledge with those who are interested and learn from others what they have to offer....it makes life MUCH simpler

[Newtire]

I think the post about being either a purist or an elitist hits the nail on the head. Glad to have the company of a few fellow travellers who don't really care how many Boone & Crocett elk you shoot each year and are just fun to hang out with. I consider myself lucky that way. I do appreciate those who perpetuate the originality of things but just can't abide having their beliefs rammed down my throat.

[jjarrell]

Im new to this site but have been muzzleloading for many years. I could care less about the "purist" if there truly is such a thing. Or the modern "muzzleloader". Shoot what you like. If its an inline, so be it.............."Jump in the truck and lets go, its almost daylight and we are late for the woods!"................. Ill tell you all right here and now. I LOVE T/C rifles. Mostly I think, because a Thompson Center Hawken was what my dad decided to get me for Christmas way back when. MY DAD WAS AND STILL IS MY HERO AND I'M OLD. They are damn fine rifles. I have a few with high end custom barrels and a few that are bone stock. All T/Cs. I prefer the sidelock or flinter to others, but what I like should in no way have any bearing on what someone else chooses. I also prefer my rifles to be blued...............guess why. That's what I like that's why. BTW.........browning a barrel isn't authentic either. Check your history. Browning and blueing were luxuries that most could not afford. Most were in the white. They were browned by time and use. We need to be tolerant of each other and quit putting people down for not liking exactly what YOU think they should. To the "purist", it smells the same as anyone else when you take a dump. To the "modern" muzzleloader, sidelocks aren't outdated. Me and my custom 36" Howard Kelly barreled, 1:72 twist .54 cal T/C Hawken will put them through the same hole for as long as my shoulder can take it, and blow the pants off both the "purist" and the "modern" shooter with roundballs. Im not a purist or a modern shooter...............so where do I fit in? If we don't stop this foolishness. All the organizations that are trying to stomp out hunting, and the shooting sports that we all love so dearly will prevail. Who are you going to bitch about when that happens. JMO

[hpdrifter]

i just dont see much difference between a scoped modern muzzleloader and modern center fire.

to each his own.

[Good Cheer]

Purist is pointless in my book but why let percussion rifles (.45's, .54's, .30-06's) have an entire season?
[smilie=l:

[Squeeze]

Ive killed a bunch with a roundball. I kind of drifted away and I like Inlines now. But, I do most of my hunting with a recurve bow. (and carbon arrows) [smilie=l: Hows that for a contradiction?

[Texantothecore]

My approach is a bit different: if is pretty I will buy it. I don' t care if it is historically correct. Close enough and accurate is good to go.

[Texantothecore]

I will add that many of the rifles we know about were rather expensive guns for the time, not the day to day guns. Many of the day to day guns were cobbled together with parts from grandads clapped out flintlocks and the ones I have seen are not what you would expect. So "historically accurate" may be "historically inaccurate".

[Sharpsman]

If it ain't PRB and blackpowder....I don't need to talk about it!

[Hanshi]

If it ain't PRB and blackpowder....I don't need to talk about it!



You and me both.

[waksupi]

You and me both.

Yep. When I was still on staff, I had a minor fit that the traditional and modern weren't separated. Entirely different animals.

[dondiego]

Has all of the traffic gone to the new site? I have noticed way fewer postings here lately.

[triggerhappy243]

What new site?

[Texantothecore]

Although I love the history of bp shooting I regard bp as the equal or the better of gunpowders. I have only one gun (semi-auto pistol) that does not use bp and that pistol will probably be leaving the fold this year to be replaced with a revolver which will be quite pleased with bp.
My 1851 Navy went through 650 rounds without a misfire. I have never had a semi do that.
So bp frequently is used in my modern rifles and pistols to great effect.

[rbuck351]

Wasn't John Brownings harmonica gun an inline? Never mind, that wasn't a muzzle loader. It was a breach loading, percussion, inline, repeater. I just wouldn't be caught dead shooting a modern contraption like that. No sir. A smooth bore with touch hole and a glowing ember is the only real traditional way. Any thing else is just, well, I don't even want to discuss it. It's, it's, it's, well it's just wrong. As I walk off in a huff. After all my way is THE way.:bigsmyl2: