primer pin holes,sticky cases

[DDDueler]

Loading for a (new to me) Interarms Virginian Dragoon, 71/2" 44Mag. 246 grain cast w/gas ck. This is a big heavy gun.
Alliant says: 11.8 g Unique, 35000 lbs.. Lyman says 11.0 g @1200 fps. I shot 10 g unique and cases were a little sticky.
Then I shot 2 rounds with 11.5 g unique and had black pin holes in 20 year old CCI mag primers and Very sticky cases. Stopped there, came here.

[Powersgt]

All the sources I have show that you are right in line with the powder charge but I never use MAG primers unless I am using a H110 or other similar powders. What do the cases mic at from a sized or new case?

[BABore]

I'm willing to bet that none of the data you've quoted used magnum primers. They can add several thousand psi to a load and are not needed with Unique. I've found that 10.5 grains works for me, but work it up on your own with standard primers. Unique is a fairly fast powder and fast powders can get squirrely when pushed to max pressures. Little things like seating depth, bearing surface, and ambient temperature can take them over the edge. If your looking for more speed, get it done with a slower powder. 2400 if you want just a bit more and 296/H110 or 300 MP if you want max performance. I even use standard primers with those powders in the 44.

[DDDueler]

resized are .448, reloaded are .448.

[DDDueler]

Used Large pistol in 10 g load, used mag. primer in 11.5 load. Can't get 2400 powder anywhere, so wanted to see if I could get a mag load from Unique. Have always used 2400 in past. I don't consider 1255 fps crazy from such a large gun, so tried 11.5 g.. I can back off to 11.0 g @1200fps and that's ok. Always used mag primers in heavy 44 loads before. Pin holes in primers concerned me. I guess the problem I have is to pull or not to pull the remaiming 48 rounds I have loaded. Don't want to blow up a nice revolver. Thanks

[bangerjim]

Strange. I have not seen that, but I only use mag primers with published loads of H110.

I do not even allow dirty olde Unique in my shop. I have used 8.2gn of Titegroup and ETR7 in mags with standard primers with excellent success, but not a full house wrist-snapping load like H110.

Be sure and clean your cylinder out. That could cause some of the sticking your are talking about.

Hope you find a satisfactory answer to your "holey" situation!

bangerjim

[freebullet]

The pin holes are a sign. I most certainly would NOT shoot them.

The magnum primers aren't necessary with fast burning powder. I normally use the fast powder for gallery loads (for me thats 800-1100 & no checks) in mags & rifles. Sounds like you might want to try a slower powder for the speed your after.

If my cases already getting sticky at 10gr I would not add 1.5gr and a warmer primer. I'm glad you didn't have anything crazy happen. I've noticed some data in 357 that I cannot safely get near. Like 2gr shy & I'm seeing pressure signs. Work loads from the start and increase carefully. I normally only make 3-6 test loads and only increase the powder no more than .2-.5gr with each set of test loads. When getting near the top charges I've been known to make/mark a few +.1 gr at a time. That careful load development prevents major surprises & having 50 rnds to break down.

Another thing you might check for is lube residue build up on cases and in the chambers. I had an experience with that causing the cases to feel as if they were soldered in the chambers even though there were not any pressure issues.

[gwpercle]

Too hot ! Best to drop back and work up a load. Don't pick a near max then add a magnum primer, this is a recipe for disaster.
Try 10.0 grains and a standard primer, after shooting and checking for signs of excess pressure, If you feel the need for more speed , only then move up very slowly.
Sticky extraction is dead giveaway....the black pin holes are a screaming alarm to stop.
Load safe, load smart.
Gary

[DDDueler]

If Lyman lists loads as high as 12.1 and Alliant is 11.8, I thought I would be ok @ 11.5 in this Virginian. It's as strong or stronger than a Super Blackhawk. Would not have shot them in my Uberti 44 mag.. I normally work up .1 or .2 g also when loads are hot and gun is lighter.
It felt good and 2 holes almost touching, so gun seemed to like it. I have loaded for 55 years and used to say " I think I'll lighten up next time". At 70 I'm going to pull em. Thanks guys!

[DDDueler]

Loaded and shot 10 g unique in both Uberti and Virginian. Shot great and felt comfortable. Will stay here as a load for my Uberti. Have shot 22 g 2400 powder w/240 swc in my mod.29 for 35 years... not looking for that. Hoping for a 1250 fps load from Unique....I'm sure I got it but guess I will go back to 10.5 and work up to 11.0 and stop there.

[Blackwater]

One other possibility you might want to check out, is to take a look at the contour of the firing pin with a good, powerful magnifying glass. Get it really clean first, of course, then see if it looks smooth and consistently rounded. Sometimes, a pin can have a mark or burr on it and cause the primers to pierce slightly. I just don't think it's the load, unless maybe it's those mag. primers. You only need those with certain hard to ignite powders, but certainly not with Unique. FWIW?

[Tatume]

Welcome to the list.

Are the pin holes in the center of the primer, at the firing pin strike? Or are they on the periphery? If the holes are around the edges of the primers, your primers are probably defective.

Take care, Tom

[DDDueler]

Yes, dead center. See above.

[DDDueler]

Tonite I looked at primer stricks in 10g. loads and pin mark in center of firing pin mark was same as hot load but did not penetrate or make hole. I looked at firing pin and it had a .001" projection on end. 3 swipes with stone and it's gone. Gun not fired for 30 years ,so a cleaning of chambers and I'll shoot it tomorrow. I could not believe 11.5 g. is too hot.

[44man]

I have shot 296 since about 1980 and they never get a mag primer in the .44. Only when I get to the .475 do I move to them.
Mag primers in the .44 have always tripled groups.
I would say the projection on the pin was the problem but also remember a slight change in boolit profile can change pressures too.
There is a lot of internal force on a primer, if you were to take slow motion pictures you would see the hammer almost reach full cock from the primer hitting the pin, then the hammer will strike the primer again.
The .44 case is not large and a mag primer can force the boolit out before powder ignition. Not a good thing especially with H110 and 296. You do not want to increase air space. You need good case tension with any primer.

[DDDueler]

sorry, above didn't get sent...see comment below that. thanks

[DDDueler]

WOW, this shows I never stop learning. Didn't know mag primers were that big a deal. Always used them when I went above 20.0 g. 2400 powder. Have shot 25 g. of 4227 w/240g jacketed SP and mag primers and they were accurate and hell on elk. That was in the 70's and Keith was an influence.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, I think people have hit on the likely reason. I've had it happen on a .38 Webley I bought unfired after several decades of storage, which must have had about as low pressure as any modern or nearly-modern pistol. It might take a shade more stoning, but anything that doesn't leave the tip too short should be fine. If it had happened through excessive pressure, you would see how a tiny piece had lifted out of the primer. Too long a taper in the tip of the pin, so that a gap was left around the edge, would have resulted either in the same or in a crescent-shaped crack around its edge. Here is one from an unknown rifle, picked up on a range, in which the gap was caused by a lopsided enlargement of the firing-pin hole.

153716

The other was done (with a remote pressure gun I believe) in the developmentin an improved .244 Holland and Holland Magnum. It was done by pressure which would surely have destroyed a revolver, but shows how an overpressure primer rupture happens.

[DDDueler]

I cleaned the chambers, then decided to shoot one more of the lighter loads to see how my honing on the firing pin affected the look of the primer......10.0 g. unique, large pprimer, .....black pin hole in primer!! Appearently firing pin is tooo long. Company out of bus. for 35 years.
I don't know where to start to shorten a revolver fire pin.

[dubber123]

If you are still using the same lot of primers, I would try some others before filing away at the pin. If you have had the same problem with 2 different lots of primers, it may indeed be a mechanical problem.

[44man]

I agree, long ago Rem primers had a problem. they tracked it to the cleaning solution for the cups that ate the cups. You could just have brittle, old primers. Though I have never seen it, not to say it can't happen. Get new and try again.

[freebullet]

Pics of your loaded rounds & the fired cases with primer issues would help folks steer you in the right direction.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I cleaned the chambers, then decided to shoot one more of the lighter loads to see how my honing on the firing pin affected the look of the primer......10.0 g. unique, large pprimer, .....black pin hole in primer!! Appearently firing pin is tooo long. Company out of bus. for 35 years.
I don't know where to start to shorten a revolver fire pin.

It is more a matter of knowing where to stop. But I wouldn't exclude the possibility that your choice of primers and brass are responsible. Both are made to tolerances, and when shallow pocket combines with deep primer, this might result. Is it possible that you are loading with rifle primers instead of pistol? They are about .008in. deeper, and while this might be composed of thicker composition layer with the same anvil, it is also possible that the latter comes closer to the breech face.

http://ballistictools.com/articles/primer-pocket-depth-and-diameter.php

I take it this is the single-ejecting Virginia Dragoon? That alone might make the cases seem sticky in a .44 Magnum, especially if the chambers are a little bit rough.

[44man]

the VA Dragoon was of the highest quality. i can't imagine much of a problem.
Need more primer tests to see.
Sorry, rifle primers are .010" higher then LP and will not fit. They can cause slam fires out of battery.
This is either a pin or brittle cup problem.

[Char-Gar]

WOW, this shows I never stop learning. Didn't know mag primers were that big a deal. Always used them when I went above 20.0 g. 2400 powder. Have shot 25 g. of 4227 w/240g jacketed SP and mag primers and they were accurate and hell on elk. That was in the 70's and Keith was an influence.

Elmer Keith did not use magnum primers with his 44 Magnum loads.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

the VA Dragoon was of the highest quality. i can't imagine much of a problem.
Need more primer tests to see.
Sorry, rifle primers are .010" higher then LP and will not fit. They can cause slam fires out of battery.
This is either a pin or brittle cup problem.

I don't know the source or authority of the dimensional tolerances quoted in the Ballistictools website I supplied in post 23. But leaving aside the possibility of departure from those tolerances, in that table a maximum Large Pistol pocket and minimum Large Rifle primer height coincide at 0.123in. That will fit the tightest headspaced of firearms, and lots quite legitimately aren't. A single action revolver doesn't slam very much.

[MtGun44]

If you don't know how to modify the firing pin, time to find a competent
Single action gunsmith.

[44man]

I don't know the source or authority of the dimensional tolerances quoted in the Ballistictools website I supplied in post 23. But leaving aside the possibility of departure from those tolerances, in that table a maximum Large Pistol pocket and minimum Large Rifle primer height coincide at 0.123in. That will fit the tightest headspaced of firearms, and lots quite legitimately aren't. A single action revolver doesn't slam very much.
The .500 S&W was made for a LP mag primer and then they went to a LR primer. Guys seated LR primers in LP cases and got slam fires. The primer must be just below the case head with any. No proud primers. Brass can vary but you need a lot of trust in that. There is no doubt a LR is .010" longer then a LP. No, forcing it in and crushing it does not help for ignition. Primers are sensitized by seating the anvil but nut crushing the cup.
SR and SP are not much issue but you can only give danger to a man telling him he is OK with a LR in a LP case.
I get bashed more then anyone but there is a reason, it is truth and safety.

[dkf]

I find it hard to believe that your load is very high pressure unless you are using a super short COAL.

This is the load I recently tested in my Ruger Redhawk 5.5". They shot rather light, especially under 11gr. Brass dropped right out of the cylinder and the primer edges were still good and round.

MP #503 SWC .432" Alox
1.700" COAL
HS-6 Powder
CCI #300 LPP
Rem .44mag Brass

Started at 10.0gr working up to 12.0gr.

[dkf]

I have shot 296 since about 1980 and they never get a mag primer in the .44. Only when I get to the .475 do I move to them.
Mag primers in the .44 have always tripled groups.
I would say the projection on the pin was the problem but also remember a slight change in boolit profile can change pressures too.
There is a lot of internal force on a primer, if you were to take slow motion pictures you would see the hammer almost reach full cock from the primer hitting the pin, then the hammer will strike the primer again.
The .44 case is not large and a mag primer can force the boolit out before powder ignition. Not a good thing especially with H110 and 296. You do not want to increase air space. You need good case tension with any primer.

44man did you use the same powder charge with the non mag primer vs the magnum primer? I was using CCI #350 mag primers with 23gr-24gr with a 240gr XTP and accuracy did not seem to be the greatest.

[paul h]

If you live in an area with lower ambient temperatures, I'd highly advise using a magnum primer to ignite H-110/W-296. It has a heavy detterent coating and really needs a good spark to get it going.

As to the op, my old model Ruger 357 occasionally pierces primers. It has nothing to do with loads being too hot, and all to do with the firing pin extending a bit too far. I've loaded it to levels I won't mention using small rifle primers with never a pierced primer, and loaded powder puff loads with small pistol primers with the occasional pierced primer.

[44man]

44man did you use the same powder charge with the non mag primer vs the magnum primer? I was using CCI #350 mag primers with 23gr-24gr with a 240gr XTP and accuracy did not seem to be the greatest.
As I tested primers I always reduced for the mag and worked back up. In the .44 it made no difference and the standard was always more accurate.
Most was done in Ohio for IHMSA and even at -20° the mag groups were always larger. True I don't have -40° or more so I can't go there. I am not sure you ever need a mag primer in the .44, somebody from where I don't want to live must test. Someone said you need them but Federal never loaded the .44 ammo with mag primers. I called and talked to a nice lady that went through records for me. I think it comes from the name of the round, .44 MAGNUM!