I sure don't know much about flintlocks

[Sensai]

:? I just bought my first flintlock from one of our good members, and thought that I should learn a little about them while I await it's arrival. As the title says, I found that have a long way to go!

A couple of questions:

1: Is there a standard size round ball for the 54 caliber? This particular rifle is a Lyman Deerstalker. I see .530 and .535 as the most common, with different thicknesses of patches, Would it be better to use a smaller ball and thick patch, or the largest that will fit with a thinner patch?

2: Is there a black powder substitute that can be used with flintlocks? Real black powder is hard to find around here! Every where I go it's the same story, "we used to carry it, but it just got to be too much trouble". I'm particularly concerned about the priming charge.

Thanks for any help and please forgive my ignorance of this subject.:oops:

[smokeywolf]

The holy black can be had through the mail. Never heard of any major seller of black not shipping to the lower 48. Olde Eynsford or Swiss are top choices for brand. FFFFg in the flash pan to bottom or slightly below flash hole. FFg down the barrel. Other folks here are much more well versed than I about starting quantity for main charge.

I've never used a black powder substitute so won't offer comment on that subject.

I'm a little surprised that the member from whom you bought the rifle did not offer some of his experience.

[carbine]

Back Creek Gun shop outside Winchester

[Beagle333]

Would it be better to use a smaller ball and thick patch, or the largest that will fit with a thinner patch?

Smaller ball/thick patch = easier to load and more fun if shooting for fun, due to that.
Largest ball/thin patch = best accuracy and slightly more penetration offered, but aggravating to load many like that.

My .02 [smilie=s:

[scattershot]

Black works best, especially for the priming charge. Beyond that, I found that a bigger ball/thinner patch gave best accuracy, but each rifle is a law unto itself. With a flinter, it's important that you not overfill the pan with your priming charge. The flash should go up into the flash hole, not burn through like a fuse.

good luck!

[Sensai]

Thanks for the replies.



I'm a little surprised that the member from whom you bought the rifle did not offer some of his experience.

Not his fault, I didn't ask.

Hazmat fees and minimum order sizes limits online purchase of black powder to a "last resort" for me.

[Odinbreaker]

I have a Lyman Deerstalker 54 cal flint The best powder is 3 ffg you can use it for main charge and in the Pan. I have used 530 RB and 535 Rb just change the patch. Mine will also shoot Powerbelts real well a few year ago I got a deal on some 400 grian power belts in 54 they work well and have a punch. I also use a T C maxiball mould that drops a 405 gr bullet. I have used that bullet in all 4 of my 54 cal never had a problem. I usually use a 75 to 85 grain load depending on the bullet lighter heavier load. Heavy bullet lighter load.

[pietro]

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I, too, use the K.I.S.S. method of loading FFFg Holy Black for both the main charge & the pan/priming (pan powder should lie in the bottom of the pan only, taking care that the touch-hole/vent isn't covered by powder).

In case you missed it above, board member "carbine" posted a funshop near Winchester VA that stocks BP.


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[Sensai]

Winchester is quite a hike from me. I'm just south of Williamsburg.

[fouronesix]

Thanks for the replies.



Not his fault, I didn't ask.

Hazmat fees and minimum order sizes limits online purchase of black powder to a "last resort" for me.

Last resort eh? The subject of "I can't get BP (won't bother with getting it)" is a very common post on the forum. Go to Powder Inc or Graf and Sons websites and do the math. You'll find it available for about 20-25/ per lb total shipped to your door. Powder Inc has a 5lb minimum and Graf doesn't. But it simply makes sense to get at least 5lb anyway. 5lb of BP is really not much once you start shooting. Pretty simple I think.

[Maven]

Sensai, Try this guy as well: http://addictedtoblackpowder.com/index.html

[duckey]

Hey tidewater. I live in Williamsburg. I shoot Pyrodex and American pioneer powder in my percussion and they work fine of course. Never tried either in a flinter. I can say the Pyrodex fouls more then American pioneer. Black powder however holds the crown for fouling a barrel but it is a flinter and prolly more traditional. Have you tried bass pro or green top?

[rfd]

imo, there's absolutely no sub that can hold a spark to the real deal black powder in every manner from ignition to performance. pay the hazmat fee and be done with it, you will never ever regret using real black powder, particularly in a flintlock. hook up with other ml's in local club or at the range and go in on a bp buy to save $$$.

i use 3f exclusively for flintlock calibers .36, .40. .45, .50, .54 and .58 - for both the tube and pan. i prefer swiss, but goex works just fine. there is no need for 4f or null-b in the pan. if 3f won't reliably touch off the main charge you have an ignition problem with the flint, the frizzen or the geometry of the lock.

i would suggest to start off loading 65 grains of 3f (by volume) under a thin .010" cotton patch strip, under a .530" round ball. increase the patch size to .015" if necessary. there is no need to pound the ball down with starters or hammers, that was never done in either the 18th or 19th centuries and no need for that today. you press the patched ball into the muzzle with thumb or back of yer patch knife, trim off the excess patch, push (not ram) the prb down the tube to always seat firmly on the power.

there's so much more ......

[fouronesix]

There's a reason the subs like Pyrodex can be found at most yuppy and big box sporting goods/gun stores. Flintlocks do best with BP- to reliably and as quickly as possible go bang. There is a reason there are not the same hazmat shipping and storing requirements for the subs as there are for BP. :)

[Boogieman]

Check with the gunsmiths at Old Williamsburg. they may be able to help you . Powderinc. sells Goex for $26.40 per lb. ,5lb min,order this includes shipping & hasmat charges. They are really good people to deal with. I live about 60 miles from them so i just go get a years supply at a time.

[swathdiver]

Hazmat fees and minimum order sizes limits online purchase of black powder to a "last resort" for me.You're not doing your homework. Ordering 3lbs of BP from Graf's and having it shipped to your door is about $15 more then buying 3lbs of a junky substitute that will drive you bonkers because it does not work well in Flinters.

[Sensai]

I realize that real black powder is the best way to go, I just didn't know if there was a substitute that works. I will spend more time on the phone trying to locate some real black powder locally. While starting out on this learning curve, it makes more sense to me to by a pound locally to try than to buy at least five pounds to try. I really can't handle too many $130 purchases of powder that I don't like. Once I settle on a powder or main load/priming powder combination that I like, sure, I'll buy in quantity from an online source. Thanks for all of the input, though. As I said at the start "Thanks for any help and please forgive my ignorance of this subject.:oops:"

[Sasquatch-1]

First off here is the website for Back Creek in Winchester: http://www.blackpowderva.com/ He can sell up to 50# per car.
If you happen to be in the area and decide to check him out, make sure you call in advance. John is a working farmer and does not keep regular hours at his shop.

Second, do a little on line research for your area and see if you can find a re-enactor group. There has to be several in the Williamsburg area.

Third, and this is going on personal experience, I have used both Pyrodex and Goex FFFg in my flints. The real black is the only way to go. I found that with Pyrodex it was like one of the old westerns where they lay down a line of black powder as a fuse and it burns forever. This even happened when using real FFFFg in the pan. Much quicker ignition when using real black in both places.

[rfd]

ime, 3f real bp will work just fine for both the barrel and pan. that saves paying for two granularities of bp. perhaps you can visit a local club or range and buy a few ounces of 3f bp from a shooter, to try out. if not, buy at least 2 to 5 pounds of any good brand 3f bp ... it will work just fine if not best of all. bp gets burned up fast when you consider that you'll probably be using about 70 grains total for the tube/pan per shot, and with 7000 grains per pound of bp, that's 100 shots.

getting the rifle to go off consistently then depends on the lock and ignition - how sharp the flint, how hard the frizzen, the geometry of the flint's angle with regards to the frizzen, how few grains of 3f bp go into the pan and where in the pan, making sure the touch hole is opened and cleaned, keeping the entire lock and flint clean ... just for starters. there's more, but once you pay a little flintlock "dues", learn a good maintenance and load procedure, it all works just fine every time. promise.

i'll repeat again - make ml life easy from the get-go, use a .530" ball and .010" patch strip at the largest, won't hurt one bit to go down to a .005" patch strip either. you wanna make loading easiest, without fuss. if you think it's necessary later on, go with a larger ball and/or patch thickness.

you can test out yer rifle's ignition at home by loading the tube with 10 grains of bp and a few grains in the pan (all 3f granularity) and fire the lock. the noise won't even require ear plugs, the sound is low freq and more of a "wumpf!" with no crack. not a lot of smoke, either. but you'll get to know a lot about yer lock without wasting range or field time.

cheap traditions .50 hawken kit i put together, 3f in the tube and pan (10 grains + about 2 grains), good ignition. dang low light i couldn't see the pan or bp going into it, they both had the same color ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkMKeU_281g

[swathdiver]

I really can't handle too many $130 purchases of powder that I don't like.

It's about $80 from Graf's, to your door, for 3lbs of genuine BP. Get 2lbs of Goex Olde Eynsford FFF and 1lb of Goex Olde Eynsford FF. If memory serves, those guns like 3f powder best.

And we just saved you $50 and several gallons of fuel and sales tax! [smilie=w:

[pietro]

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Does anyone else here think that a local gunshop that has black powder doesn't also have to pay hazmat shipping fees ?

Since they're in business for the money (and not for love) the local shop's extra cost is most likely loaded into their retail price.

The reason behind ordering BP online from a bulk shipper/supplier - is that the online supplier costs are much lower to stay in business - like no brick/mortar store expenses (taxes, upkeep, etc, etc).


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[Hanshi]

In my .50s I started with 60 to 70 grains of 3F, a .490" ball and lubed .016" ticking patch. When I starting using a .024" patch both accuracy and velocity increased. Remember that different (even identical) guns may like a larger, .495", or smaller, .485" and a thicker or thinner patch. My first load is kind of a good standard starting place. Subs either don't work well or not at all in a flintlock. You can prime with the same powder you use for the main charge. I usually order a 25# case of Goex or Jacks Battle Powder; the hazardous materials charge is the same no matter if you order 3# or 50# of powder. Get with an experienced flint shooter or you may become frustrated.

[rbuck351]

Did someone say you can order BP through the mail as in the USPS. If you meant UPS or Fex EX shipping gets stupid here in AK. and that's not counting the HAZ MAT. One of our local gun shops get some on the barge from time to time but it's not regular. It runs $25 per lb which I suppose isn't all that bad if it was always in stock. Bass Pro, Cabelas SW and the like do not handle BP.

[rfd]

i order online from MainePowderHouse, 25# swiss, $23/pound, no shipping or hazmat fees with that large an order.

[fouronesix]

Sensai,
Well think of it this way- you are either going to like the flintlock or not. If you dink around, buy a pound or two of a sub trying to find something that will work, discover it doesn't work very well, you are already two pounds of powder in the hole and haven't even tried something that will give you the best chance of making a flintlock work. Then your choices will either be to get rid of the flintlock or buy some blackpowder that you should have bought to begin with.

[rfd]

i agree with 416 - sometimes one can be penny wise and pound foolish. it has been my long flintlock experiences (since the 60's) that black powder use will render the better possible outcomes whence employed with flintlock ignition, performance, fouling control and clean up.

[Thundermaker]

Hazmat fees and minimum order sizes limits online purchase of black powder to a "last resort" for me.

Substitutes have a much higher ignition temp than real black. That's why they're not as heavily regulated. The temp is too high for a flinter.

Powder Inc. Has free hazmat. They do, however, have a minimum order of 5 lbs.

Graf's has no minimum order, and their goex products are about $7/lb cheaper than powder Inc. They do have a hazmat fee. That being said, if you order 5 lbs, it still comes out a bit cheaper than powder Inc.

You should probably go ahead and order several pounds anyway. You don't get that many shots out of a pound.

[rbuck351]

What I have found with the free shipping is usually it doesn't work for Alaska and Hawaii and I don't need anywhere near 25# of BP for my 32cal flinter. 25grs gives me good accuracy and plenty of velocity. That figures out to about 250 shots per #. That's a lot of shooting considering it isn't the fastest thing in the world to reload. But yeah I use the real thing cause the fake stuff doesn't work well at all.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Thanks for the replies.



Not his fault, I didn't ask.

Hazmat fees and minimum order sizes limits online purchase of black powder to a "last resort" for me.

To cut through the non answers, there several North-South Skirmish groups in and around Tidewater Va. Look them up, meet them or talk to them, and someone will likely steer you to BP dealer or supplier in the area. They are there.

Call the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association and inquire as to the Tidewater area affiliated shooting groups. They are there also and respond favorably to inquiries.
Either organization would have members happy to help you out.

BvT

[SamTexas49]

You have been given a lot of info on which powder to use. As I recall on pyrodex, it had a higher ignition temp , thus more finicky to set off with a flinter. When the day comes to start shooting be sure NO ONE is standing to the side of the flintlock ! They really wont appreciate singed hair!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Sg8tDKrXg

[rfd]

you ain't kiddin' - stay away from the lock side. ignition and launch in less than a second. frame #3 sez it all ...

http://i.imgur.com/aKT2ytg.jpg

[Wayne Smith]

Sensai, I buy mine from The Armory in Virginia Beach, almost around the corner from me. Bob's carries some Goex as does The Armory. Next time you will be in the area PM me.