Want to buy new semi auto 30-06 hunting rifle!

[43PU]

I have done my research and looked here as much as i could. I hunted with a semi auto for the first time and realized the advantages of a semi auto 30-06. So what would you get and why? Remember I have a budget of around 500$

Thanks

[str8shot426]

I would save another $500 and get a Browning. You won't be disappointed.

[43PU]

well i would like to buy a nice BAR how ever with buying a house and a set of 5 month old twins money is a bit tight, i was hoping to stay around the 4-500$ mark

[376Steyr]

If you can't afford a Browning, get the most recent Remington auto you can afford. Remington has been tinkering with the design since it was introduced in the 1950's. My first rifle was a 742 in 30-06, and it did a fine job on deer and elk at moderate ranges. Downside of the 742 is it is not the most robust rifle, and it will break down a lot sooner than a comparable bolt action. There was a thread here a few years ago about rebuilding worn out 742s into straight-pull bolt actions.

[pietro]

.

Although I liked my .30-06 Remington 7400 Satin, I loved the .30-06 Browning BAR ! :happy dance:

BTW - If/when you ever decide to divest yourself of an autoloader, the Browning will always be saleable (quality counts, here).

Any Remington will be virtually un-saleable at anywhere near half of whatever you pay for it. :dung_hits_fan:

Most gun dealers will refuse to even take a Remington in trade, because they usually have one or more that have had birthdays in their inventory (sellers ask big $$$, but never actually get the big $$$). [smilie=b:


.

[chill45100]

I worked at a small town gun shop and the owner would only allow minor repairs to be undertaken on the Remington's. Never had or allowed one in the sale rack. Brownings were another matter.
Chill45100

[6901]

I have owned a 1982 7400 since my father bought it for me at Christmas. I have had zero problems with it and have about 1000 rounds fired. I now use bolts but I borrowed it out to others who have no complaints.

[triggerhappy243]

I realize you are asking advice on a semi-auto. sounds like you have your heart set on one. I'm curious why not a bolt gun. Outside of a really fast follow up shot, what difference does it make.( oh crapola,that's what Hillary said), Better let me rephrase that.You could get a bolt gun for less money and still have cash left for a decent scope. And they are more accurate too.

[triggerhappy243]

But if I had to buy a semi-auto, I would buy a brand new one, be a remington or a browning.

[Mauser48]

Yep BAR. If not that then a 742.

[M-Tecs]

BAR for me.

[str8shot426]

well i would like to buy a nice BAR how ever with buying a house and a set of 5 month old twins money is a bit tight, i was hoping to stay around the 4-500$ mark

At 4-$500 you are going to be limited to the used rack for a decent auto loader. I don't know of any new semiauto rifle for that price worth buying.
For what it's worth, I bought my eldest son a 30/06 Ruger American topped with a vortex 3-9x40 scope for just under $500. It's the best inexpensive hunting rig on the market in my book.
If your set on an auto and not in a hurry, keep looking, there's a lot of old 742's out there. You'll find something.
Good luck.

[Lead Fred]

The 742 is still bound to the 2710fps limit.
Unlike the 740 (now 7400) pump which has the Weatherby style bolt lugs which are like a bolt gun, and you can shoot whatever thought them.

and the BAR is better than both of the Remmies, and costs a tad bit more

[shoot-n-lead]

Had'em all...and the BAR is the only one that I will own, now.

[Lonegun1894]

I know this is a bit over your $500 limit, but how about a M1 Garand? They're great rifles, shoot well, and will do the job. The downsides are the price is a bit over your imposed limit, and they need slightly lighter pressure ammo than some of the commercial hunting '06 loads develop. But since you're here on this forum, I assume you load your own, so that isn't going to be a problem for you.

[1johnlb]

+1 on the m1 garand. Not that much more for a field grade.

https://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/

[CHeatermk3]

The OP is looking for a hunting rifle; if it's gonna be scoped the Garand will limit his choices. Not to mention the weight!

Bide your time and save your money. Shoot what you already have and remember that if you need a "fast follow-up shot" you prolly should not have fired the first one.

[Maximumbob54]

Just keep saving and eventually get a BAR. There's a good reason that Remmy auto's sell so cheap used and BAR's are always more expensive. You get what you pay for and this is a big one.

And before you poo-poo the thought of waiting and saving, I did and I'm sure glad I did.

[FergusonTO35]

How about a Remington pump or Browning BLR lever action? Almost as fast and much more reliable.

[43PU]

I hunted this year with a M1 Garand and that's what made me decide on a semi rifle to me it was a great comfort to know I have a very quick follow up shot if needed and if not needed then I don't lol.

Check out this post from hunting with CBs

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?292123-M1-Garand-Kills-again

[dilly]

My buddy got an AK47 in 308 Win for $500. I think it was last year, and it was an unusually good deal. May be something to think about.

[oldblinddog]

The BAR weighs 12 lbs without scope and unloaded! :kidding:

I would suggest the AR-10 in .308 if it was in your price range.

[gumbo333]

Look for a used Rem for a few years. If you are careful you won't loss any money when you sell it for a new rifle. Especially if you are not too picky about caliber but more Rem's in '06 than all the others put together. Don't pass up a good 270 if priced right. BAR is really nice but quite $$$. Best bet is to find a long lost uncle that will give you one.

[triggerhappy243]

the military version of the BAR may weigh 12#, but not the sporter version.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I realize you are asking advice on a semi-auto. sounds like you have your heart set on one. I'm curious why not a bolt gun. Outside of a really fast follow up shot, what difference does it make.( oh crapola,that's what Hillary said), Better let me rephrase that.You could get a bolt gun for less money and still have cash left for a decent scope. And they are more accurate too.

In hunting as in war, the real advantage is in a deliberate second shot without sound or movement. That is never more true than in the sort of deer hunting where any rifle in reasonable condition is accurate enough.

[MBTcustom]

Please stay away from the Remington jamamatics, and the Browning with its inability to shoot more than three shots into a decent group at 100 yards. I would say the average BAR does about 6-7 inch groups at 100 yards if you simply shoot what the magazine holds. I have seen only two that would do less than 3" groups for 5 shots at 100 yards, and those were just barely that.

If you want a semi-auto 30-06, the M1 Garand is the only game in town.

If you are willing to step back to a 308, then the M1A is the best way to roll in my opinion, followed closely by the FN/FAL, followed closely by the AR-10.
The garand, M1A, and FN/FAL are arsenal designed and implemented firearms that work very very well and will provide a lifetime of service. Civilian designed guns are decidedly weak (read Remington), inaccurate (read BAR), or build like a leggo/erector set that weighs 12pounds and is about as ergonomic as a New York sky scraper (read AR-10).

With the Garand, the M1A, or the FN/FAL, I feel comfortable saying that you can expect less than 2MOA across the board with these three rifles with any ammo, and nearly sub MOA for handloads.

Accurate
Reliable
Ergonomic
Tough as nails
Long lasting

It's hard for any civilian rifle to meet or beat that list.

[FergusonTO35]

Goodsteel, I would agree with you. My father in law has a 742 in .270 with a perpetually wandering zero, he has missed and wounded deer at handgun range with it. Cleanly missed a broadside shot on a big spike buck at 70 yards last Saturday in fact. He is actually a very good hunter and marksman, when he lived in Ohio anything that came within 100 yards of his smoothbore Remington 1100 with cheapo rifled slugs was as good as dead.

I think most of the hunting autoloaders in high pressure cartridges such as .308, .30'06, and anything magnum are at best carry alot/shoot a little type guns. The hunter owes it to himself and the game to be skilled and proficient with his rifle. Something that is inaccurate and/or malfunctions frequently isn't going to get the job done.

[Jupiter7]

My older Belgian BaR is a 2moa gun on the best day. It doesn't get shot anymore as its in too nice condition to carry into woods. Garand is a good choice. Consider a browning lever in 06'?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Goodsteel, I would agree with you. My father in law has a 742 in .270 with a perpetually wandering zero, he has missed and wounded deer at handgun range with it. Cleanly missed a broadside shot on a big spike buck at 70 yards last Saturday in fact. He is actually a very good hunter and marksman, when he lived in Ohio anything that came within 100 yards of his smoothbore Remington 1100 with cheapo rifled slugs was as good as dead.

I think most of the hunting autoloaders in high pressure cartridges such as .308, .30'06, and anything magnum are at best carry alot/shoot a little type guns. The hunter owes it to himself and the game to be skilled and proficient with his rifle. Something that is inaccurate and/or malfunctions frequently isn't going to get the job done.

That could easily be the rifle's fault, but if it was simply a matter of being semiautomatic, I think we would have heard more about it a long time ago. I never wanted one, but I can see their advantage, and it isn't just to fire more shots.

[6901]

Maybe I got the one good 7400 made in 1983 but it will shoot most any factory load or handload into at least 3 inch groups. As I stated in my earlier post I now shoot bolts but my experience with my 7400 jam free. I will admit that Remington may have took a down turn after 1983 but mine has given me accurate and trouble free service.

[FergusonTO35]

I still say a Browning BLR is just what the OP needs. What about the new Garands from Springfield? Are they any good?

[str8shot426]

Please stay away from the Remington jamamatics, and the Browning with its inability to shoot more than three shots into a decent group at 100 yards. I would say the average BAR does about 6-7 inch groups at 100 yards if you simply shoot what the magazine holds. I have seen only two that would do less than 3" groups for 5 shots at 100 yards, and those were just barely that.

If you want a semi-auto 30-06, the M1 Garand is the only game in town.

If you are willing to step back to a 308, then the M1A is the best way to roll in my opinion, followed closely by the FN/FAL, followed closely by the AR-10.
The garand, M1A, and FN/FAL are arsenal designed and implemented firearms that work very very well and will provide a lifetime of service. Civilian designed guns are decidedly weak (read Remington), inaccurate (read BAR), or build like a leggo/erector set that weighs 12pounds and is about as ergonomic as a New York sky scraper (read AR-10).

With the Garand, the M1A, or the FN/FAL, I feel comfortable saying that you can expect less than 2MOA across the board with these three rifles with any ammo, and nearly sub MOA for handloads.

Accurate
Reliable
Ergonomic
Tough as nails
Long lasting

It's hard for any civilian rifle to meet or beat that list.

6-7 inches? You have to be kidding! Of the 3 BARS I have owned over the years all would hold 3"@100yds with about any ammo. My current bar in .243 win has printed a fuzz over an inch on several occasions.

[218bee]

Well, everyone has opinions so I guess I'll add mine.
I actually prefer single shots..so take my opinion for what its worth.
I see your from Kentucky so can I assume your seeking a rifle to hunt Whitetail?
If so, I am also going to assume hunting in hilly country or small woodlots bordering farmland? Average shot 50yds or so? These are all assumptions by me.
I fully understand wanting a rifle of a certain type or caliber to try I do it all the time, regardless if its the "best" choice or not.
I've shot and taken deer with a Rem 742 many years ago in Wisconsin and killed all with one shot each, all shot less than 100yds.
Due to your budget, I'd look for a 742 used for probably around 300 bucks and hopefully ya get a good one.
Like any used gun yer takin a chance, and the more complicated mechanism of an autoloader adds to the chance of malfunction but I know some guys that have used those all their lives with no problems....keep it cleaned and maintained. Probably don't need a scope if shots kept under 100yds unless your eyes are like mine.
A semi-auto would not be my first choice, but if that's what ya want, that would be my recommendation. Good luck to ya.

[FergusonTO35]

I would think you could get a Remington autoloader to shoot well if you figure out what it likes, and load accordingly. My father in law is not a reloader. To him a rifle is just a tool to make things go dead. I have found that most rifles have a sweet spot for accuracy which is usually somewhat below factory power level, no reason why an autoloader wouldn't be different. Of course, that assumes you are willing to put the time and money into it.

[43PU]

Yes I am from East KY in the Appalachian foot hills. However my property was stripped mined in the 80s and now where my blind sits I have a chance of shooting 5-600 yards (I said chance, I'm not going to take a shot like that at 5-600). I want a semi auto because It is something different,I have 6 Garands 3 Fals and 4 M1As I have dozens of bolt action "hunting" type guns I just wanted something differnt. Now the reason for the '06 is because I have seriously HUNDREDS of pounds of brass for it (I have a friend that has a full auto 1919 that does not reload) and in the state of Kentucky you have to hunt elk with a 270 or bigger.

How are the older BARs I don't care to stretch my limit on an older used BAR. As of the 2-3 MOA that's fine it will strictly be a lead shooter anyways my shots will be taken inside of 200 yards anyways.

Thanks

[FergusonTO35]

I went to Dad's place in Prestonsburg yesterday, didn't see any elk though.

Looks like you are already well versed in milsurp autoloaders in serious calibers. Since you are going to reload, I would recommend just hitting up the gun and pawn shops until you find a Remington or BAR that tickles your fancy for the right price. Then just experiment with loads until you get what you want. One of my relatives has a 742 he might part with, PM sent.

[Ola]

If reliability is the main concern: Valmet Petra (http://www.greentrail.fi/tuote/valmet-petra-30-06-kaytetty-kivaari/3910000003919/)

If you want a nice semiauto that looks like a hunting rifle: Sauer 303 (http://www.sauer.de/en/products/semi-automatic-rifles.html)

[43PU]

ola thanks but I have 2 valmets and about 20-25 AKs in different variants

[petroid]

I have 6 Garands 3 Fals and 4 M1As I have dozens of bolt action "hunting" type guns I just wanted something differnt. Now the reason for the '06 is because I have seriously HUNDREDS of pounds of brass for it (I have a friend that has a full auto 1919 that does not reload) and in the state of Kentucky you have to hunt elk with a 270 or bigger.

To clarify. The regulations state that it must be 270 caliber or larger but no mention of case length or capacity is made. As such, a 30 carbine is legal, however a 6.5x55 is not. Your 308s are legal and perfectly capable

[JimP.]

i have two 30-06 semi-auto hunting rifles. first is a M1 Garand which i use for woods hunting. second is a Winchester SXR which is like the Browning BAR, minor differences, still made in Belgium.

[C. Latch]

I've done most of my deer hunting for the last several years with an AR15 in 6.8 SPC. I can appreciate what you say about desiring a second shot without having to move to make it happen. I've made several doubles and triples with my 6.8. Made one last week on a pair of does.

I'd recommend it without hesitation for any person who hunted deer inside of 300 yards, period. Perfect caliber, and with a good barrel (mine's a Shilen) accuracy is world-class.

You could also look into an AR10 style rifle in .308 or, better yet, a 7mm-08.

The ONLY downside to hunting with a semi-auto is the fact that you have to deal with a bit of noise when loading the chamber. That can be mitigated.

[43PU]

Well I took most of your opinions and i have been looking all over the place and I found myself a Used Browning BAR Long Trac on GB and i picked it up for WELL within my price range so now i need to find some See through mounts and a nice red field illumination scope!! thanks

43PU

[pietro]

Well I took most of your opinions and i have been looking all over the place and I found myself a Used Browning BAR Long Trac on GB and i picked it up for WELL within my price range so now i need to find some See through mounts and a nice red field illumination scope!! thanks

43PU


Congrats, on a very decent choice !

The only caveat that I would give, is to stay away from those (high) see-thru rings.

I realize that the see-thru rings seem to be an ideal solution, to be able to use the iron sights; but, IME, if it's time to use the iron sights, a hunter is usually better off with the scope entirely removed from the rifle - a solid argument for QD rings (that return to zero when re-mounted).

.

[Lonegun1894]

I agree with Pietro. Congratulations on an excellent rifle! But please reconsider the see through rings. Every set I have ever seen on a rifle seems to do nothing but really mess up your cheekweld which does nothing but throw in a serious inconsistency into your form and results in horrible inaccuracy. If it was me, I would consider either going with just irons, or a low mounted 3-9x variable. Keep it on low power in case you need a close quick shot, or turn it up if you see something at distance, but either way, it is consistent and doesn't leave your head floating in various places behind the scope and resulting in groups that look more like buckshot patterns.

[FergusonTO35]

Good rifle but please use only solid rings. See throughs will beat your scope to death and create a wandering zero, they can also cause the screw holes in your receiver to become elongated over time. The extra vibration of an autoloader will make it even worse. If you have a good scope with proper magnification for the intended use there is absolutely no need for see through rings. The past few weeks I've been hunting in the hills of Mercer County with a Burris Fullfield II 3-9x40 on my .257 Roberts. I kept it on 6X the whole time and could have taken shots at just about any distance, even up close.

When people tell me they need a good scope and mounts but are on a strict budget I always advise an inexpensive (the better Simmons or Bushnell lines) or used name brand scope and quality steel rings and bases. Even the best scope and rifle in the world will be handicapped by poor scope mounts. If you feel you will likely need the iron sights at some point then get some Weaver brand quick release rings and bases. I have a set of the medium height Weaver rings that can be yours for the cost of postage.

[Maximumbob54]

On the comment about see through rings, I'm looking for something quick detach and I'm reading some very good reviews on Talley's setup. Right now they have my vote for replacing a set of see through Weavers on my BAR.

Oh, and since I posted my last post on page one of this thread I just bought a BAR in .270 with Leupold VX-2 for just under $600 out the door. Deals are out there, you just have to keep shopping and have the cash ready to go.

[rockrat]

Friend bought a BAR back in the 70's, in 308. His rifle was a pain, kind of. It was very unforgiving for any change in how he held it. If his grip loosened up a bit, it would group 2-3"@100yds. If he was attentive and consistent in his hold, and trigger work, it would hold just shy of 1"@100ys. This using military ball ammo.

Think the North Denver (Thorton)Cabelas has a 742 in 280rem.

[Clay M]

I grew up shooting the seven forty two. Killed my biggest buck ever with it in 73.
It was the deer rifle everyone had to have back then.
I personally think the rifles are a piece of junk, but I was impressed with it when I was sixteen.
My best friend had a BAR in .30/06 .
It was a much finer rifle.
I have owned both.
Nowaday the only semiauto I own is Springfield Armory M1A National Match.

I use single shot rifles for any hunting I do.
A deer is not going to stand around all day and let you shoot..;)

[43PU]

You would be surprised what deer with do in East Kentucky, my dad shoot at one 4 times with a 30-30 and missed all 4 before he told me to shoot it, now i have seen as many as 20 deer come to my feeders at one time, and with VERY limited time to hunt, i would like to fill my tags as fast as i can, so i can put meat in the freezer which is what hunting is for me, a way to feed my family. I am excited about my New BAR it should be here any day now!, what do you think about tip off mounts?

[M-Tecs]

what do you think about tip off mounts?

The couple I have tested didn't repeat worth a hoot. Not a fan.

[Clay M]

In the early days a semi auto was appealing to me.
I had been using a Ruger .44mag carbine when I was twelve.
In the early mid 70's the 742 came out, and everyone was buying them.
I was overjoyed to get one for Christmas when I was fifteen.
It served it's purpose. A deer killing machine, although all the deer I ever killed with it were one shot kills.
I guess I outgrew it, and found other rifles more fascinating.
I still have happy memories of the rifle.
In fact of the 100 plus deer I have killed,most have been taken with one shot, whether I was using a lever , semi auto , bolt, or single shot rifle.
I figured out I only really had one shot, and to make it count.

My father taught me that when I was very young.
I went out today and shot his favorite Sako rifle.
I miss him.

[S. Galbraith]

Interesting requirements. A .308 would be far easier to obtain. However, as other posters have said, the Browning BAR is the way to go.

[jonp]

oddly enough i looked at a gently used 742 30-06 at the gunshow yesterday priced $300

[Artful]

43PU (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?27017-43PU) did the BAR come in yet? Have you gotten a chance to shot it?

[pietro]

what do you think about tip off mounts?



Not much, since tip-off mounts are for rimfires.

Do yourself a favor and go to www.swfa.com (http://www.swfa.com) - click on "mounts, rings & bases", then look at the (lowest online) costs for several makes of QD rings/bases.

There are good "no tool required" QD rings available from the likes of Leupold (QRW ), Burris (Zee QD) & "tool needed" (coin or screwdriver) return-to-zero rings from Burris, Leupold, Nikon, Weaver & others.

Any of those makers will also have bases appropriate for mounting their rings onto your BAR.


.

[jonp]

Interesting requirements. A .308 would be far easier to obtain. However, as other posters have said, the Browning BAR is the way to go.
I shot the best groups of my life with my grandfathers 742 Woodsmaster 308 and 110gr Silvertips. With a Redfield 4x at 100yrds you could cover the group with a quarter. Don't tell me that those rifles can't shoot.

[S. Galbraith]

I shot the best groups of my life with my grandfathers 742 Woodsmaster 308 and 110gr Silvertips. With a Redfield 4x at 100yrds you could cover the group with a quarter. Don't tell me that those rifles can't shoot.

Oh I have no doubt that the 742 is a very capable rifle. I was just commenting that he was so committed to a .30-06 semi auto when a short action bolt rifle is highly capable. Some of the best marksmen I know are bolt shooters, as well as moving game hunters. Here's one example:
https://www.facebook.com/CampfireStories/videos/907511385951910/?pnref=story

[jonp]

no worries, s.galbraith. It came out a little strong and not in the way some took it I'm sure. I happen to think that in a semi-auto like a BAR or 742 etc a short action is the way to go but my experience with them outside of the 742 and AR family is limited.

[BustemAgain]

This thread warms my heart with memories. I started whitetail hunting, well serious deer camp whitetail hunting, in a UP Michigan deer camp that when I was old enough( you had to be 21 or married) to start going had 49 members. 44 of them used Remington 742s and of those probably 40 had various high see through rings. While I am no fan of them I can say that those Remingtons all worked even in some harsh winter swamp conditions. The problems and there were tons of them were almost all related to the "Ironsighter" rings. Apparently going from 0 degrees to 75 degrees several times would reek havoc with what I am assuming where non stress relieved aluminum extrusions. Us younger fellows would be tracking the winged and wounded through the swamps into the wee hours nearly every night. One night in particular we brought in 5 nice bucks that had been shot around the edges. Every one but one of those had been victim of the curse of the Ironsighter. The other was a victim of poor bullet selection. We eventually instituted a sort of product improvement program. Most of the older guys switched to Burris Zee rings on Weaver bases. The few see thru mount clingers took to leaving their guns in there cars or blinds over night to avoid the temp swings and the 30/06 contingent started using 220 grain Corelokts almost to a man. The difference was amazing in the following years. Culminating in a year with 61 bucks taken before the buck pole collapsed. That camp is nearly no longer though. It was mostly populated with World War II vets from a time when sportsman drove a station wagon and smoked a pipe. The wolves moved in and decimated the herd. I think they had 5 guys in camp this year and all saw wolves. I moved on to a different camp and these many years later shot my first deer with a 30/06 semi-auto. A nice little 8 point with a Browning BAR grade IV or some such that my Uncle had willed to me and I took for a spin for old time sake.

[43PU]

Yeah the BAR came in, I need to refinish the stock on it. I threw a red field 5star 6-18x40 on it I have yet to shoot it but I might tomorrow morning

[43PU]

And she shoots good!!! This is factory federal ammo, at 100 yards at 27* in the morning the lowest hole was a called flyer which is why there is 6 holes instead of 5, now don't be jealous of my custom made targets, the group is around 1 inch

[randyrat]

You picked the right gun, BAR. Way to go!
I think the 742 is a great gun for the guy who shoots 2 times a year..First he checks the sights at 50 yards about late Sept shoots 2-3 rounds. Second he shoots 2 rounds at a deer opening morning in Nov.. Wipes the outside of the gun down with 2in 1 oil and calls it a year..He brags about how reliable his Remington is and accurate for the last 10 years and takes a another big gulp of Beer..

They are not a bad gun for what they were made for, maintaining the 742 correctly makes them go further. I still wonder how many were ruined because they were sprayed with WD-40, not cleaned and lubed just sprayed.

[izzyjoe]

Great pick! You'll love that BAR, don't listen to anyone they shoot small groups with store bought ammo, randy I'll agree with you, wd40 has been the ruin of many a gun, and improper cleaning. All the old timers that I was brought up around said just clean the bore, and oil the action, well we know better now don't we! The 742's were ok rifles, they kept gunsmiths from going hungry.

[Outpost75]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Sound advice and correct choice. I have nothing of value to add.

Bravo Zulu all...

[badbob454]

m1 Garand is my choice

[TNsailorman]

I never owned a 742 but my Dad did. I loaded his ammo for it. 47.5 grains of IMR4895 and a 150 grain Hornady roundnose bullet. It would do an 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" about anytime you wanted to test it, which was every year right before hunting season. He kept it well oiled and clean and never had a problem with it. However, he had a stroke and could not hunt anymore and it sat for a year or two. My sister loaned it to her boy friend who kept it for a couple of years and then return it a year after they broke up. He had evidently left it sitting in a creek somewhere as the bottom half of the butt stock was water damaged and the action was dirty and a bit of rust inside. After dad died, my brother got the rifle and took it to a gunsmith who replace the bolt guide sleeve inside and , bought a new stock and replaced the stock and did a blue job on the rifle. It looks like a new rifle now. james