Loading black?

[badgeredd]

Since some of the forum members have suggested I try Holy Black in my 40-65. I figured, why not? But then my ignorance of how it should be done popped up. First I don't have a BP powder measure. Second, is 65 grains weighed or volume measure. Third, there isn't any money available at the moment but I really want to load some cartridges so how can I do it with what I have? I realize that a lot of shells should use a drop tube; do I need one? HELP me, PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks guys !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[405]

In many ways BP cartridge is more straight forward than loading smokeless. Just don't allow any air space between powder and bullet base. About 1/10" compression of powder by bullet as it is seated is a good place to start. Load and shoot.... simple enough:mrgreen:

Now--- fine tuning, accuracy, cleaning and the like are other issues.

[Razor]

Until the real experts pop in.....
Go by VOLUME...
I loaded some .303 Brit with BP... a kick in the pants...!
I was in kinda the same boat as you..
What one fella said was...
dump some 2f in a big bowl...
drag the case thru it 'til it's FULL...
hold in one hand and tap the case with the other hand to settle the powder some..'bout a quarter inch... (SAME EFFECT AS A DROP TUBE ??)
seat the boolit...
shoot...:Fire:
Jus' that simple...:roll:
You want SOME powder compression...
NO air space between powder and boolit..
HTH

Razor
:castmine:

[e15cap]

Black Powder is weighed by everyone I know. Lots of people are using Lyman 55 for black.
A drop tube is nothing more than a suitable size copper tube with a funnel on the top. Make wads with a punch and hammer out of tablet paper or milk carton. A blow tube is a cartridge case drilled and tapped for a pipe nipple with some plastic tubing stuck on it. No rocket science here, just geterdone. Roger

[badgeredd]

Okay guys, one more question. Should I use 3f or 2f in the 40-65? or even maybe a duplex? I want to have a repeatable load so if I fill a case and then weigh it, would that be a better way? Guess that is more than "one more question", sorry (well not really) just a bit ignorant about this BP thing!

Do I "need" a wad? or is it just better to use it and if so why?

[Wayne Smith]

In the 40's you can uyse either 2 or 3F - my 40-70-BN shoots better with the 3F but try both. A wad protects the base of the boolit, you can cut a wad from a coffee can lid or the lid of a Chinese food container. Likewise an acceptable wad can be cut from an Orange Juice box. Buffalo Arms sells the appropriate wad punch and they sell a press mounted punch.

Yes, you should use a wad. You need some way to compress your load, shaking, a drop tube that can be made with on old arrow body and a plastic funnel, or holding the case on an electric razor for the vibration. I made a ram to mount in my arbor press out of Corian - turned it on my wood lathe. Bufalo Arms also sells a compression die you mount on your press. This gives you a relatively standard amount of compression.

Old information is that Goex likes compression and Swiss BP doesn't.

[Don McDowell]

Black powder charges are in grains. Never knew of any scale that would register volumes.:roll:

Anway I've had good accuracy from the 40-65 here with 60 grs of Goex Cartridge, a.030 fiber wad and about any cast bullet between 3 and 400 grs.
It really gets deadly accurate with 60 grs Goex 3f express ,.030 fiber wad and the Lyman Snover cast from #2 alloy and lubed with Sagebrush alox.

[xtimberman]

Make yourself an inexpensive drop tube using an old aluminum arrow shaft (Easton 2314, 2514, etc.) and a small aluminum funnel attached with JB Weld on top.

Use a C-clamp to hold a strong clothespin onto the front of your bench. The clothespin will hold the tube at your preferred height when pouring BP into the funnel.

xtm

[wonderwolf]

Make yourself an inexpensive drop tube using an old aluminum arrow shaft (Easton 2314, 2514, etc.) and a small aluminum funnel attached with JB Weld on top.

Use a C-clamp to hold a strong clothespin onto the front of your bench. The clothespin will hold the tube at your preferred height when pouring BP into the funnel.

xtm

I really like that idea, whats the ID of the shaft? thats being resourceful there esp if you go out hunting downrange where archers shoot with a metal dectector might find several for free lol :mrgreen:

badgeredd you might want to look into getting some publications for referance such as paul mathews books. IMHO I would stay away from duplex until you've gotten the all black powder thing down.

[carpetman]

Wonderwolf---"What's the ID of an arrow shaft"? Arrows come in different diameters---they match up pounds of pull and draw length and determine what size(stifness) is needed.

[August]

Arrows are splined for stiffness, they are all the same diameter.

[carpetman]

August--You are partially correct--arrows are splined for stifness. That is true. Now how do they vary that stiffness? Arrow material is one way----carbons for example are skinnier than aluminum. But here we were talking aluminum, so to get the different stiffnesses the wall thickness and overall diameter comes in different sizes---either of these two would vary the ID which is the subject. BTW wooden arrows are solid so you cant use them for a drop tube. Well ok,you could if you hollow it out.

[xtimberman]

I really like that idea, whats the ID of the shaft? thats being resourceful there esp if you go out hunting downrange where archers shoot with a metal dectector might find several for free lol :mrgreen:

All arrow shafts are NOT the same diameter.

You can figure ID of an Easton aluminum arrow shaft by looking at the size designation. The first two numbers designate the OD in /64ths of an inch. The second two numbers designate the wall thickness in .000".

For instance, a 2114 aluminum arrow shaft has a nominal OD of 21/64", and a wall thickness of .014". The ID would be 21/64" minus .028".

BTW, stiffness of an arrow is referred to as spine not spline.

xtm

[carpetman]

xtimberman---Thanks for posting that info about the numbers on Easton Arrows---I knew it at one time and could not remember exactly. I knew the spine too,but had forgotten that---some reason spline seemed ok to me.

[badgeredd]

badgeredd you might want to look into getting some publications for referance such as paul mathews books. IMHO I would stay away from duplex until you've gotten the all black powder thing down.

A duplex load is a load of 2 different powders with different burn rates. If one used 3f in the bottom of the case, say 10 grains, and finished off the load with 2f, one would have a duplex load.

I decided to load 3 shells each with 2f and 3f to see which seemed to give me the best initial accuracy and then work with the best one first. I know my 45 muzzle loader shoots really well with a load of 25 grains of 3f and 60 grains of 2f duplexed. Of course that is using round balls too.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and ideas, love the arrow shaft idea!

[steif]

Hi,
I made my cheap drop tube with a trip to the hardware store... Just look for a water pipe like is used for a toilet or sink supply, they are usually nickel plated copper with a " head" or compression fitting head on the end. I put that end in the down position and found a old aluminum small funnel we had in the kitchen for the top, and mounted the whole thing on a scrap piece of board. the cone shaped head area fits different sizes of cases like a charm. If I remember right it was under $10 for everything including some plastic cable clamps to hold the tube on the board... works real well and the added bonus since it's nickel plated it looks real snazzy on the wall next to my bench...lol...
Good luck!

[Black Prince]

A duplex load is a load of 2 different powders with different burn rates. If one used 3f in the bottom of the case, say 10 grains, and finished off the load with 2f, one would have a duplex load.

And if one used between 10 and 15 PERCENT of a smokeless powder such as 4227 or RX7, and finished the rest off with 1.5, 2 or 3 FFG, an over powder wad of say .060, and then seated the bullet, you would have a duplex load that will burn the BP charge so clean, with or without compression, you can shoot 100 rounds without a blow tube or cleaning. For general use, it will be a great load without having to mess with a blow tube.

NRA will not allow duplexed loads in silloute matches , but will allow I believe up to 20% smokeless, in long range matches.

Let us know how you come out. BP is fun to shoot and it can also be very accurate. It can make you pull your hair out too, so don't get discouraged trying it. I shoot a 40-65 using duplexed loads and it's a hoot, but it took a lot more effort to get it to shoot than smokeless loads.

A bit of unasked for advice: The quality of your bullets, especially their bases, will play a major role in whether you get good accuracy. A nose pour mould can be a very good investment here. Select them by visual and by WEIGHT inspection. Reject all with obvious surface pits or voids and any by weight that exceed one standard deviation from the mean either plus or minus. Flare the case mouth enough so that you do not damage the base when loading. Use a good over powder wad to protect the bullet base. Crimp only enough to remove the flare.

Good luck.

[barnaclebill]

Hi
Sharps Black Powder Cartridges
I may be in the wrong forum here but maybe someone could point me in the right direction...I want to do my own BP loading for my Sharps Rifles. 45-120 and 50-90 and 45-70 and trap door Springfield 45-70. All guns are original and I am having a bit of difficulty finding brass cartridges for them. I also have a total lack of reloading equipment as I have only fired Muzzle loaders in recent years. One reloading book on the way and lots of learning so I will not blow myself up. This forum looked real promising to start with and help is always appreciated.

[405]

Hi
Sharps Black Powder Cartridges
I may be in the wrong forum here but maybe someone could point me in the right direction...I want to do my own BP loading for my Sharps Rifles. 45-120 and 50-90 and 45-70 and trap door Springfield 45-70. All guns are original and I am having a bit of difficulty finding brass cartridges for them. I also have a total lack of reloading equipment as I have only fired Muzzle loaders in recent years. One reloading book on the way and lots of learning so I will not blow myself up. This forum looked real promising to start with and help is always appreciated.

bbill,
This is the right place.

The basics are: Die sets for the cartridges you have, get the sets that have the neck expanding die with them (Lyman M die or equivalent). Reloading press. Maybe a primer seater and case trimmer. Caliper measurement tool. Brass- poke around here and places like Midway, Graf, etc. online stores. The 45-70 is the easiest to come by. The others may get a little pricey!:-?. Bullets and black powder of course. The bullets should be lubed with soft BP type lube. Probably some .030 or .060 card wads. Primers. Powder measure- actually you can get by with just a dipper because in loading BPCR you fill the case with powder to a level just above where your wad and/or bullet base will be when seated with a little compression of the powder column. That is about as basic as it gets

First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter.

Read, re-read and re-read the BPCR manual(s) you get. There are several out there. The more manuals, instruction books the better!

Fire away! Clean as carefully as you would a muzzleloader shooting blackpowder. To start you may want to swab between shots with soluble oil-water mix (moose milk) and jagged patch. That will help with accuracy until you can fine tune the loads. IF you do as so many do just starting out who go out and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot!!! who don't clean the bore often and have used the oft recommended soft, plain base bullets especially if those bullets are undersized- all kinds of discouraging things can happen. Like rapid drop in accuracy after a few shots, frustration, very tough to clean lead deposits and so on.

After shooting, clean the brass with small bottle/test tube brush in hot soapy water and rinse then dry. Over time BP will also corrode brass. Clean and oil bore just like a muzzleloader (sans the hooked breech types:mrgreen:).

As to "blowing yourself up" ??? Less likely with BP than smokeless I imagine. The rounds/gun types you mentioned were designed for BP. Smokeless in BP designed cartridges and guns is the part that gets tricky. A little too much or the wrong type of smokeless powder in the large volume BP cartridges is where the bad Kabooms come from.

Have fun

[Black Prince]

I am having a bit of difficulty finding brass cartridges for them. I also have a total lack of reloading equipment.
Bbill, double click on this http://www.buffaloarms.com/. It will take you to the place that has everything you need. Call them and they are VERY helpful. They know what they are doing. They can get you set-up and loading in no time.

Once you get everything all set-up at home, let us know and we'll help you from there. Since you have no equipment or loading stuff, there isn't much we can do now. Well, we could sit down and have a drink, but we don't have any Evan Williams. While we are waiting for your stuff to get here, send each of us a bottle of Evan and we'll discuss the fine art of bullspit while we wait. If you don't do that, some of these boys will get bored and go to sleep.

Oh an WELCOME. You gonna be fine here. These are good boys who know their stuff. Now quit messing around and send tha Evan. :)

[barnaclebill]

Thanks for the quick replies. I will start putting supplies together and get back but I am sure to have more questions soon, I also did find some brass at the TRACK OF THE WOLF

?????????
"First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter."

Does this mean the same as making a metal cast of the chamber with low temp casting metal? Georga is sort of close and maybe I will visit and bring the Evan Williams, never had it !whatever it is. I live in SE Florida but from Seattle.
Thanks again---I knew this was a good place to start.

[Black Prince]

Bbill

BEFORE YOU GO ANY FURTHER, get yourself a good loading manual. Better yet, get about four or five. If you can find one, I suggest Lyman No. 47. The new No. 48 is not as good in explaining all you need to know to go where you want to go IN MY OPINION. But if a No. 48 is all you can find, get it. Lyman does the best job of over all explaining the loading process IN MY OPINION. Lyman also publishes a black powder manual. I have it, but it mostly deals with muzzle loading and does not have a lot of BP cartridge information in it. There are other reference materials out there such as the whole series of books by Paul Matthews. Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe also have an excellent BP Cartridge loading manual and primer. Find them and read them FIRST.

There are about as many different approaches to do what you need to do as there are guys on this forum. Probably all of them will work, but some may be contidictory and that will cause you to question what you are doing. You don't need that. A good manual has been checked by several different technical writers and they have all passed on what the manual says. They have also passed it by the lawyers, so whatever you read is going to be conservative, and you want to be.

That is NOT TO MEAN that these guys here, myself included, can not give you dam good advice on how to do this stuff. What I'm trying to say is that we all have our own way of doing many of these things and our own opinions and sometimes we can confuse someone who does not know or understand all the technical mumbo jumbo we all like to use. And, of course, my way is always better than what someone else is doing because if his way was better, I'd be doing it that way.

AFTER you read information in a manual that you trust and still have a question about what it says, THEN come here and ask. Likely everybody here can assist you in understanding what the manual is saying and by sticking to just explaining that one area, we won't get off on tangents like we are bad to do and confusticate you all to hell and gone.

Don't just jump in and do something. By using the wrong tools, materials and techniques, you could damage your barrel trying to drive a slug through it. READ the proper way first in a good manual. Ask the boys here about it. We have all done it, and we probably have used several different methods. I for example, ONLY USE WOOD dowell rods to drive dead soft round balls down my pre-lubed barrel and do not take any chance on damaging it, but others use metal rods and longer slugs very successfully. If you ask how to do that here and get different answers, it may create doubt in your mind and you don't need that.

This is fun and interesting stuff, but there are some basic ways of doing things that can keep you out of trouble and prevent problems from ever coming up in the first place. There are steps that should be done first, and second and so on. Learn what they are and then do them in the proper order. Everybody here will help you, but sometimes we like our own way better than some other way. I don't want you to get started on my way when there may be a better way for you. So get started right and enjoy the process. Shout out here when you need help.

I was of course, just pulling your leg about the booze. I don't use it. It's all I can do to get things right without that stuff screwing up my head.

[405]

Thanks for the quick replies. I will start putting supplies together and get back but I am sure to have more questions soon, I also did find some brass at the TRACK OF THE WOLF

?????????
"First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter."

Does this mean the same as making a metal cast of the chamber with low temp casting metal? Georga is sort of close and maybe I will visit and bring the Evan Williams, never had it !whatever it is. I live in SE Florida but from Seattle.
Thanks again---I knew this was a good place to start.

bbill,
Track o' Wolf is a pretty good supply source- have used them for certain brass and some frontstuffer parts.

Slugging is really very easy and since you have muzzleloader experience may have some slugs already. Simply as I can describe it. Here goes:

For each gun get a very soft (pure lead is best) slug or even round ball a few thousandths over your bore diameter. For example: for the 45 cals a .490" roundball is ideal. Even soft lead fishing egg sinkers work! Get a brass drift punch or short brass rod that is maybe .30" diameter, a longer than barrel length brass or steel rod about .30" diameter. A plastic or hard composite or even hardwood mallet, a spent pistol case that is smaller than bore diameter that will fit over end of long rod. You'll want to put several wraps of masking tape around long rod about every foot or so to keep the rod from contacting the inside of bore.

Lube the bore and lead ball with oil. Place gun in vertical position muzzle up. Place lead ball on muzzle crown. Slowly drive ball into muzzle with mallet until almost flush. You'll end up with a slug entering the bore and a "washer" of excess lead on muzzle face. No problem- leave the washer there for now. Take short starter brass rod and place in center of slug and drive farther into bore. Take long rod with the pistol case on end and insert into muzzle and drive the slug the rest of the way thru until it pops into the chamber. Measure, with caliper or mic, the diameter of the raised rifling on the slug- that is the groove diameter of the bore.

Can't over-emphasize the importance of having that groove diameter recorded for each gun. For best chance of good accuracy and minimal leading with cast bullets they should be somewhere from barrel groove diameter to about .002" over groove diameter.

The thing your were talking about with the casting is for measuring the exact dimensions of the chamber. That may or may not be necessary but usually is done to trouble shoot certain problems later on if needed.

Hope that helps

[August]

I lived in Port Orford for many years. There is one (1) arrow shaft factory making shafts out of Port Orford Cedar, it is in Myrtle Point. All the shafts made in the sole Port Orford Cedar Shaft factory in the western world are the same diameter. They only have one size knife on their shaper.

They are hand splined for stiffness. The stiffness varies as the result of the location in the tree where the arrows come from (among other natural phenomena).

Sorry I don't know nothin' about no space age, alloy, aluminum tubes that might be shot out of a bow. Never had no reason to use 'em.

[barnaclebill]

The first time around I plan on buying 40 loaded bullets from Buffalo $170 whew!!!!
Then I will reload the brass. My Question is---How many times can Brass be reloaded if it is cared for after shooting BP? takes my bill at Buffalo up to $600 so far. The $140 leather Cartridge belt for the 45-120 sort of ruined the pocket book a little but hey! Can't take it with you and more fun than having a CD at the bank.

Does the Lyman die set also seat the Primer?

Can Primers not be ordered online?

Recommended Black Powder ? for the 45-120 and 50-90 .

I can't find a Moose to milk here in Florida. maybe someone in Alaska can help me out. Will Alligator milk work? I have one of those in my pond.

Thanks again
Barnacle Bill

[Black Prince]

Bbill

Dang it man, yew gittin' tha cart afore tha dern horse. Primers are seated either with one of the several hand tools out there, or on your press. Depends on what press you have as to how that'll work. If you want to start off easy, get a Lyman 310 tool and die set. You will use a die in the set to seat primers there and it loads some dam good ammo too! Get yerself a copy of Venturino and Garbe's BP Cartridge Primer. The manuals are cheap and easy to read. You'll know the answer to most of these questions in about an hour's worth of reading. The manual even has picters. THASS why I like it cause I can't reed gud ya see?

Yes. Powder can be ordered on-line. I suggest you start with Goex cartridge grade FF-G or Swiss 1.5 powder. I use Swiss, but some people say it is over priced. It works for me , so I use it. There will be a 20 dollar Hazmat fee for each powder order so get a bunch when you get it. Same deal on primers ordered on-line.

Brass will last depending on how you treat it. If you don't bell the case mouth too much and shoot mild loads, it'll last longer than if you shoot hot loads and bell a lot. You can always aneal (soften) the case mouths and help prevent split necks and thus make them last longer. Just as a didja know, I've had more trouble with nickle plated cases splitting, some on the very first loading, than I have had with brass cases. Doan know if that has anything to do with the plating process, or it was a hard batch of brass, but I had five or six split out of a hundred last batch I got from Starline. But I LIKE nickle cases cause they are purdy and they don't tarnish quick like brass. Whatever floats yer boat.

BTW, I had Moose milk on my oatmeal up here on the mountain in north Georgia this morning. Didja know them suckers is hard to milk? :)

[405]

barnacle,
The moose milk is easy. Getting the moose to stand still is the hard part!

Several of the online shooting supply stores like Midway, etc. sell Ballistol. It is a water soluble oil. Been around since WWI. Get a handy size plastic bottle or squeeze bottle with spout- anything that makes it easy to apply to patches for cleaning. Fill about 1/4 of bottle with Ballistol. Fill the rest with water.... presto! moose milk

Ballistol is fairly cheap and when mixed with water way cheaper than similar store bought pre-mixed BP solvents. Very good for on-the-range bore swabbing. It also helps delay, prevent or neutralize BP residue corrosion. Then when back home the bore should be cleaned normally and oiled. BTW also works very well for regular muzzleloader swabbing.

Others have used various mixes of vinegar, ammonia, Simple Green, soap, etc. with water for the same purpose. I've used moose milk for a long time, it works so have stuck with it.

[Black Prince]

Well now by golly, THERE is something that a buncha these guys will likely agree with. That Balistol stuff if great. Smells kinda funny, but does a good job. Makes oatmeal taste different too. :)

[barnaclebill]

While I was going through my Muzzle loading supplies last time in Seattle I came across a pint of oil that an old timer gave me in 1966 for soaking my patches after I built my first and last Kentucky long Rifle from scratch---It is "Sperm Whale Brain Oil". Now ain't that a kick. pre Whaling bans oil. Now that must be a valuable oil for very original shooting. The plating process will cause the case to crack easier--been there , done that. But they really do look cool.

Do the Lyman die sets include the primer insertion tool for using on a press?. They did not indicate at Buffalo if it was.

Books are on the way so in the meantime I must just ramble along asking dumb questions.

[Black Prince]

Partner, the only dumb question is the one you don't ask and then screw something up because you didn't ask.

Primer seating is done on your press with the primer arm or whatever set-up it uses. It is not a function of the die except on the 310 tool, and even then, it ain't exactly what you'd call a die. Don't worry about that. Most presses come either with a primer seater of some kind or another, or they come with an independant priming tool such as with some Lee presses. I use an old Lyman All American or a Dillion press 550-B as upgraded. Both have priming capability on the PRESS; it is not in the die. Many people like the independent priming tools made by just about everybody from RCBS to Lee. I just use the one on the press because that's what I've always done and have never had any problems. If it ain't broke, I ain't gonna fix it. You are sweating the small stuff because you don't know how it works. Once you read the manual, or the press instructions and look at the photos, and do it one time, you'll say, there is nothing to this.

BTW, what kind of press (which model) did you get? Did you get a sliding collar competetion bullet seating die? They come in handy with the longer straight (thin walled) cases and help support the case when the bullet is seated and thus help prevent crushing the case. May not ever be a problem, but a competition type die just prevents that in the first place.

Yew gonna have fun I can tell. Once yew start breathing that BP smoke, yew is gonna be hooked fer good!

An uhhh, can you spare a couple ah drops of that brain oil? My brain ain't working rite anymore and I jiss thought if I could put a little oil on tha machinery, it might . . . aww never mind. I'll just use moose milk.

[montana_charlie]

BaracleBill,
Feeling that you are in competent hands, I didn't intend to intrude. However, I have been reading along, and an 'inconsistency' has appeared that may deserve mention.

First you said...

I also have a total lack of reloading equipment as I have only fired Muzzle loaders in recent years.
Then you amplified on your caliber(s) by saying a couple of things...

The $140 leather Cartridge belt for the 45-120 sort of ruined the pocket book a little but hey! Can't take it with you and more fun than having a CD at the bank.

Recommended Black Powder ? for the 45-120 and 50-90 .
then, Black Prince made this recommendation...

If you want to start off easy, get a Lyman 310 tool and die set. You will use a die in the set to seat primers there and it loads some dam good ammo too!
That prompts me to say that the Lyman 310 tool may not be able to handle cartridges as long as yours.
I started reloading with the Lyman 310, and like it as a portable loader. But, the Lee hand press seems more 'flexible' because it uses standard dies.
However, I don't know if (even) the Lee will take .45/120.
A good many bench-mounted presses won't...
CM

[405]

Not directly related to the BPCR reloading but holy cow! That stuff is rare, rare rare. Guard it or lock in a safe :mrgreen: break out for special occasions only.

[Black Prince]

I use the Lyman 310 with my 40-65 with no problems, but checked here http://www.cnyauctions.com/the310shop.htm to see if you can get a die set for 45-120. They have die sets for the 50-90 and the 50-110, but I don't see them for 45-120 and that may be because it is too long. It may also be because they don't have 45-120 dies. Anyone interested can give'm a call and find out. I didn't think about how long that 45-120 case is when I suggested the 310.

That goes back to what I said earlier: I was only thinking about what I do and how I do it, and had completely forgotten that you are shooting a 45-120. That is why it is always good to have as many eyes on this stuff as we have here. The high detail people will spot things like that and I won't see it. They keep us straight and out of trouble most of the time, but I can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

[barnaclebill]

I was going to order the Lyman Orange Crusher II press, 4 1/2" opening for the 3 1/4" 45-120.
Also ordering the Lyman LYM7460506 and Lyman LYM7460499 dies for the 45-120 and 50-90. from Buffalo Arms. It appears that these are new products from them.
This is Buffalo Arms Description of the die.

45X3 1/4" Sharps Lyman Die Set
Reloading Dies / .42-.45 Caliber
Item #: LYM7460506
$46.39 / Each

Nostalgia is bigger than ever within the shooting sports. There are many fine Sharps and Highwall rifles on the market in a variety of calibers fueling this interest. The one problem that has faced reloaders of many of the Sharps calibers, however, has been the cost and availability of properly dimensioned reloading dies.Lyman has now eliminated this problem with the introduction of our Classic Rifle Die Sets. These standard 7/8" x 14 3-die sets will fit most brands of reloading presses and include Lymans popular "M" neck expanding die.

[405]

barnacle,
You betcha! You are starting off right with the good equipment! That press with the dies you ordered will serve you well. Once you get firing the smoke then you'll have to watch all the little details, re-adjust components, techniques and so on to get the kind of performance and accuracy those guns are capable of. It can get frustrating at times. Most of us who shoot them are continually tinkering and trying for the impossible- the perfect load. If the Sharps are modern repros and depending upon the makes- your bore and groove diameters should be pretty close to standard specs. That trapdoor is another matter if it has the original barrel. They can have groove diameters from +/- .458 to well over .461. Trying to shoot a standard .457 or .458 cast bullet out of an over-sized trapdoor bore can be extremely frustrating. Likely very inaccurate and big leading potential. On the other hand if the bore is not like the inside of a sewer pipe and the bullet is correct diameter for the bore.... they can be scary accurate.

badgeredd,
We kind of hijacked your thread- hope some info here applies to your questions also :coffee:

[barnaclebill]

Thanks again for the inputs-All helps

All the Sharps and trapdoors are original. When I was in my more stupid days I fired Standard 45-70 cartridges from the trapdoor and about ruined my ears. The trapdoor is like new and had never been fired when I got it as a kid. The Sharps are all in extremely fine condition. The 45-120 Sharps barrel is 1 1/4" across the flats so it will not blow up anytime soon. In the past I would not fire all the really old rare guns but now since I decided not to sell any of them I will just go shoot them and collect more since I ended up hating the stock market and interest rates are in the toilet. Can't take them with me and whoever gets them when I am gone can deal with ?????decreased value?????by firing them. What good is a fine rifle if you cannot use it. After seeing Quigley Down Under I just knew what my next Rifle would be. I stopped at an estate auction the other day and bought a US 1847 [replica ] Colt 44 Walker ...What a quick way to dump a can of Black powder. Anyway sorry for the rambling but hey---At least I'm talking BP. if I get out of line just let me know.
Thanks Again.
BB

[Black Prince]

Wal yew jiss keep on talkin' Bbill cause yew talkin' our kinda talk. Original Springfields, Sharps, and Colts!! Man it muss be nice to have money!!

But you are right on the money with shooting those fine firearms. If you are not an investment collector, you might as well shoot them. And we will do everything we can to help you do it correctly so you don't do anything to harm them or YOU.

As you can already see, these boys are plenty sharp. With the stuff you have ordered, you will be making fine smelling smoke in no time. Are you going to buy or cast your bullets? If you are not going to shoot a lot, buying bullets is okay. If you are going to shoot, you might be better off casting your own and that is another ball game into itself.

But not to worry, these boys do that too and they know their stuff. This hobby can occupy your entire day if you have the time and money to do that. It's never dull and it's about as much fun as a man can have with his pants on.

Come to think about that, I ain't never tried to shoot with my pants off. Hell, it might be as much fun as a fella can have with his pants off and without all the baggage that comes with other types of fun while in that situation. It'll dam shore be less expensive!:)

[barnaclebill]

[QUOTE=Black Prince;338280]Wal yew jiss keep on talkin' Bbill cause yew talkin' our kinda talk. Original Springfields, Sharps, and Colts!! Man it muss be nice to have money!!

But you are right on the money with shooting those fine firearms. If you are not an investment collector, you might as well shoot them. And we will do everything we can to help you do it correctly so you don't do anything to harm them or YOU.
Are you going to buy or cast your bullets? If you are not going to shoot a lot, buying bullets is okay. If you are going to shoot, you might be better off casting your own and that is another ball game into itself.]

Many of my old guns were purchased as a kid after I got out of the Navy in 1966. I just bought what I liked the looks of and BIG. I happened to buy some guns that really got pretty rare like Winchester 73s, Spencer, Blunderbusses, and just lots of BIG caliber Rifles. I still do not have a Henry but $35,000-$100,000 Forget it. !!!!I usually could not afford much more than $100 and had to think serious about that. I still have almost all the guns I bought as a kid. Regret the ones I sold.

I plan to cast my own bullets cause I just like to do that sort of stuff. I presume the same mold would work for the 45-120 and the 45-70? haven't put together a shopping list for that stuff yet but I will be asking.

Thanks

BB

PS---How do you do a quote with just part of a posting?

[405]

barnacle,
Those here, inclined to enjoy shooting and admiring the old originals, are maybe as excited about this as you are. I am anyway. I think it's a great priviledge to be able to shoot an original Sharps much like the feeling of shooting an original Hawken or fine original longrifle!

So, for sure slug those bores. I've slugged/measured quite a few old, original bores and any barrel 130 + years old may have some odd dimensions. Shooting regular cast even if undersized over BP if loaded right and cleaned right won't hurt them at all. But for the best accuracy and a better idea of their real potential, using the right bullet of the right diameter can help a lot. BP can obturate or bump up undersized, fairly soft bullets but how well that translates into accuracy is iffy- at least I've found that to be the case. Seems much easier and less frustrating to start with a bullet that is closer to best guess diameter for bore/groove dimension.
Have fun! and yes at least some of us are a little envious :)

[badgeredd]

And if one used between 10 and 15 PERCENT of a smokeless powder such as 4227 or RX7, and finished the rest off with 1.5, 2 or 3 FFG, an over powder wad of say .060, and then seated the bullet, you would have a duplex load that will burn the BP charge so clean, with or without compression, ............

Let us know how you come out. BP is fun to shoot and it can also be very accurate. It can make you pull your hair out too, so don't get discouraged trying it. I shoot a 40-65 using duplexed loads and it's a hoot, but it took a lot more effort to get it to shoot than smokeless loads.

........... Flare the case mouth enough so that you do not damage the base when loading. Use a good over powder wad to protect the bullet base. Crimp only enough to remove the flare.

Good luck.


THANK YOU Black Prince!!!!!!!!!!!
I tried your suggestions along with a couple others (each separate from the others) and the duplex is a hoot to shoot and the cleanup is far less a pain. Of course you having a 40-65 sure does help! Thanks again.

[floodgate]

barnacle bill:

GEEZ! That hurts. I can remember going down to Bob Abels' in New-York in the early '50's and seeing Henrys at his standard price of $90.00 each, and two barrels stuffed, muzzle-down, with Trapdoors and 1861-1863 Springfield and contractor CW rifle-muskets, your pick, at $15 each. I even spotted a full set of the three Trapdoor XR's at the same $15, but by the time I went home and looked them up in Gluckman and rushed back, someone else had scarfed them up. I even got a fine Japanese spring-lock Tanegashima matchlock at $50 from a posh Madison Ave. antique shop - half-off because the owner allowed as how it was all dusty from hanging on the wall so long. That one, at least, I've still got; but my wife won the $100 with bayonet India Pattern "Brown Bess" off me when I told her no-one could hit a beer bottle at 40 paces with a musket - NEVER BET AGAINST A WOMAN SHOOTER!

But then, how much were we earning per hour in 1950?

Fg

[Black Prince]

Glad that worked for you Badgeredd. I like it because I don't have to use a blow tube or clean the chamber or barrel even after 50 rounds. The smokeless burns the black so clean, I don't have to do anything but load in another cartridge and shoot. I get all the smoke and noise without all the messy cleaning or have to use that stupid blow tube. When I shoot NRA Iron Chicken matches, I have to do alla that crap because I shoot straight black powder as the rules require. It's a PIA!!

But when I'm out messing around, those duplex loads are Jim Dandy anywhere you are not REQUIRED to use all black powder.

Now Bbill,

if you want to quote something here, I just use html symbols like {quote} only you should use brackets insted of this {/quote} If I had used brackets, that would come out like this:
only you should use brackets instead of this They have a neat way of doing it here that is a short cut, but I've never tried to use it and use html instead. Maybe some of these boys who are a lot smarter than me will explain to BOPHUS how to use the quote thingie here.

[EDK]

You need to get two books. SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST by Mike Venturino and LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph Wright. Buffalo Arms has them both.

Hang out at shilohrifle.com/forums and do some reading.


:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[barnaclebill]

You need to get two books. SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST by Mike Venturino and LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph Wright. Buffalo Arms has them both.

Hang out at shilohrifle.com/forums and do some reading.


:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

I'm on it.
Thanks
BB

[barnaclebill]

[First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter.]

easier than I thought it would be.
45-120 had land diameters (groove in bore) of .4505 & .4530 average= .45175

50-90 had land diameters of .506 & .508 average= .507

The brackets didn't work

[Black Prince]

Bbill

Less try this one more time. If you wanted to quote what you did above, here is how I do it.
]quote[ First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter. ]/quote[

All you have to do to make that work as a quote in your post is turn the brackets around so they are opposed like this [quote].

There is an easier way to do it, but I don't know how to use the quote function here.

Oh heck!!! I just tried it. All you gotta do is type whatcha wanna quote and hit the quote thingie. Works good. HA. I say HA!

Yew did it in your post to EDK. Whatcha mean yew doan know how to do it? Are yew jerkin' my chain?http://i29.tinypic.com/2nl69fc.gif

[barnaclebill]

You need to get two books. SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST by Mike Venturino and LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph Wright. Buffalo Arms has them both.

Hang out at shilohrifle.com/forums and do some reading.


:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

Very interesting..When you said get the book "Loading and Shooting paper Patched Bullets" I had to do a bit of research as to what a paper patched bullet is. I think I have it figured out now and the interesting thing is that I thought this was a new idea for competition shooting. Well Today in the mail was my original poster printed by Sharps a LOOOOOOG time ago showing a life size drawing of each of the cartridges Sharps made. To my surprise it appears that many were paper patched. I also learned that there were 36 cal. paper and 52 cal. Linen bullets. Always learning more.:coffeecom


BB

[405]

[First slug the bores in your guns. Record those numbers in your load log book. At least the groove diameter should be recorded. You want bullets from groove diameter to about .002 larger than goove diameter.]

easier than I thought it would be.
45-120 had land diameters (groove in bore) of .4505 & .4530 average= .45175

50-90 had land diameters of .506 & .508 average= .507

The brackets didn't work

BB,
Looking at your numbers after you slugged those bores- need to make sure we are on same page and talking about the same measurements. Can make a huge difference when seeking best bullet diameter for bore dimensions.

Example:
Bore diameter (strict definition in our context)- the inside diameter of the rifle barrel as it was bored prior to rifling grooves being cut.

Groove diameter- the inside diameter of the of the rifle barrel between bottoms of opposing rifling grooves.

Lands- the raised portions in a rifle bore that are the remnants of the original bore surface that was not cut when the grooves were added. (could call land diameter the same as bore diameter in our context)

OK....When that slug pops out after driving thru it should have more or less the reverse imprint of the inside cross section dimensions of the bore. The widest diameters as measured on the slug would be the barrel groove diameter (opposing bottoms of the grooves)

Just looking at your +/- .451-2 that you are calling "groove in bore".... that mearuement seems closer to standard bore diameter in most 45 cal rifles. A .451-2 bore diameter usually means about .458-9 groove diameter.

Re-check your numbers and definitions.

Best bullet example: if the bore diameter on your 45-120 is about .451 and the groove diameter is somewhere around .458 you'll want to start trying bullets sized to about .458 then work up to about .460.

Since old guns can have wide variations of dimensions it's possible your groove diameter numbers are correct.... just making sure!!! might save a lot of headaches and poor shooting.

mt charlie,
Sorry, you beat me to the same idea! Hope this doesn't p on your hydrant :)

barnacle B
Yes, slugging a bore is very easy. Always surprised that some avoid it.
Yes, paper patching bullets has been around awhile- at least the early 1870s or before. You don't think Matthew Quigley would be out-of-period do you :)

Also added, a simplified drawing showing the "deal" about bores, slugs, etc.

Usually the best diameter bullet to start with is barrel groove diameter.

[Black Prince]

My dear Mr. Barnaclebill:

This distinguished body of highly educated, experienced, and dignified gentlemen at Cast Bullets is shocked by your use of what can only be correctly called, redneck slang. I am sure sir, I speak for many of the brotherhood here, when I say that I am aghast that you would use such language in our presence assuming as you obviously do, that we would understand a word of it.

We most certainly do not. If you intend to stay in our company sir, you will endeavor to make amends for your past actions, and in the future be particularly attentive to what you say and how you say it. We have already been traumatized and shaken by your brazen language, and we vigorously and emphatically denounce your caviler attitude towards members of this assemblage as evidenced by your presumption that we would comprehend such wretched vernacular.

Strict instructions have been issued to me by the secretary of this group to immediately place you on double secret probation, and to demand that you pay double dues during the probationary period of one year. Please forward your dues to me forthwith and without delay.

Your humble servant,

Mr. Black Prince:)

PS:

Ditto what 405 said.

[montana_charlie]

easier than I thought it would be.
45-120 had land diameters (groove in bore) of .4505 & .4530 average= .45175

50-90 had land diameters of .506 & .508 average= .507
Easy for you, maybe...but your numbers confused the heck outta me.

So, I made up this crude little drawing of a slug taken from a bore which has four lands and four grooves.

Measuring the lead slug from A to B gives you groove diameter (of the barrel), and measuring from C to D gives you the barrel's bore diameter.

A groove diameter of .458 is in the ballpark for being 'normal', and a bore diameter of .450 is 'nominal' for a .45 caliber rifle.

We do not expect (and will just be confused by) any numbers being 'averaged' when expressing these dimensions.
CM

[waksupi]

In case yonder aur any Rednecks reading dis I have done a li`l translation fer yew cheer.

Very interestin..When yew said git da book \"Loading `n` Shootin paper Patched Bullets\" I had ta do a bit of research as ta whut a paper patched bullet is. I recon I have it figured out now `n` da interestin thang is dat I thought dis was a new idea fer cumpetition shootin. Well Today in da mail was my original poster printed by Sharps a LOOOOOOG time ago showing a life size drawing of each of da cartridges Sharps made. Ta my surprise it appears dat many were paper patched. I also learned dat yonder were 36 cal. paper `n` 52 cal. Linen bullets. Always learnin mow

I can only hope the readers of this letter are as outraged as I am at Redneck hillbillys. To get right down to it, Redneck hillbillys parrots whatever ideas are fashionable at the moment. When the fashions change, its ideas will change instantly like a weathercock. If you think that Redneck hillbillys has the mandate of Heaven to commit all sorts of mortal sins -- not to mention an uncountable number of venial ones -- then think again. Believe it or not, I like to speak of Redneck hillbillys as "unstable". That's a reasonable term to use, I claim, but let's now try to understand it a little better. For starters, several things it has said have brought me to the boiling point. The statement of its that made the strongest impression on me, however, was something to the effect of how its mistakes are always someone else's fault.
My goal is to take a proactive, rather than a reactive, stance. I will not stint in my labor in this direction. When I have succeeded, the whole world will know that an understanding of the damage that may be caused by Redneck hillbillys's out-of-touch précis isn't something I expect everyone to develop the first time they hear about it. That's why I write over and over again and from so many different angles about how Redneck hillbillys's causeries would be absolutely risible if they weren't so incoherent. Let me express that same thought in slightly different terms: Redneck hillbillys has really pulled a fast one this time. That's pretty transparent. What's not so transparent is the answer to the following question: Is there anything that Redneck hillbillys can't make its lackeys believe? A clue might be that Redneck hillbillys's double standards reek like rotten eggs. I always catch hell whenever I say something like that so let me assure you that it is the picture of the insane person on the street, babbling to a tree, a wall, or a cloud, which cannot and does not respond to its tirades.
Sesquipedalianism doesn't work. So why does Redneck hillbillys cling to it? The most appealing theory has to do with the way that it's obviously a tragedy that Redneck hillbillys's goal in life is apparently to compose paeans to ageism. Here, I use the word "tragedy" as the philosopher Whitehead used it. Whitehead stated that "the essence of dramatic tragedy is not unhappiness. It resides in the solemnity of the remorseless working of things," which I interpret as saying that Redneck hillbillys's causing all sorts of problems for us. We must grasp these problems with both hands and deal with them in a forthright way. Redneck hillbillys is off its rocker. There, my ranting is finished.




BB[/quote]

[Black Prince]

Preach on brother. Halleluiah and AMEN!!

The wisdom on your sermon will be carved in stone and passed down through the ages. School children will be required to memorize it and recite it at the opening ceremonies of all official activities. Politicians will quote it in their speeches when they are attempting to sway voters to their cause. Yea I say unto you, these eternal words will live on without regard to the vicissitudes of time or space to become one with the universal mind. Your immortal words will become as those of Plato and Aristotle’s in the minds of all men throughout the land now and forever more.

And the double reverse backhand dog knot is always the best thing to use for trot lines in swift flowing rivers, especially if there is the possibility of catching an alligator, and there is always that possibility, as every good Redneck knows.

Yawl boys do know how to tie'm, dontcha?

[barnaclebill]

My dear Mr. Barnaclebill:

This distinguished body of highly educated, experienced, and dignified gentlemen at Cast Bullets is shocked by your use of what can only be correctly called, redneck slang. I am sure sir, I speak for many of the brotherhood here, when I say that I am aghast that you would use such language in our presence assuming as you obviously do, that we would understand a word of it.

We most certainly do not. If you intend to stay in our company sir, you will endeavor to make amends for your past actions, and in the future be particularly attentive to what you say and how you say it. We have already been traumatized and shaken by your brazen language, and we vigorously and emphatically denounce your caviler attitude towards members of this assemblage as evidenced by your presumption that we would comprehend such wretched vernacular.

Strict instructions have been issued to me by the secretary of this group to immediately place you on double secret probation, and to demand that you pay double dues during the probationary period of one year. Please forward your dues to me forthwith and without delay.

Your humble servant,

Mr. Black Prince:)

PS:

Ditto what 405 said.

I sincerely offer my humblest APOLOGY if I offended anyone in the group. I honestly felt that none of you would understand a word of what I said but just in case there was a stranger in the mists that happened to read my post I wanted to cover all my bases on gathering information.I feel absolutely shaken to the bone for being on double secret probation and I promise that in the future I will behave myself. please inform me where to send my dues for the next year. You have all been very helpful and did not deserve my tasteless joking around about Rednecks as I have learned the hard way that you are nothing less than pure gentlemen. Actually my New best friends in Florida are self acclaimed Rednecks and I strive to be as friendly as they are. They would truly be mortified by my crude actions that I have apparently sunken to. Please Forgive me.
Barnacle Bill:killingpc:groner:

[Black Prince]

Hee, hee. You gonna fit in gud here hoss. Dang shore are. In fact, I moan put tha seal of approval on ya rat now. Heah it is: OFFICAL SEAL OF APPROVAL
http://i27.tinypic.com/2a4wlg6.gif

[barnaclebill]

BB,
Looking at your numbers after you slugged those bores- need to make sure we are on same page and talking about the same measurements. Can make a huge difference when seeking best bullet diameter for bore dimensions.

Example:
Bore diameter (strict definition in our context)- the inside diameter of the rifle barrel as it was bored prior to rifling grooves being cut.

Groove diameter- the inside diameter of the of the rifle barrel between bottoms of opposing rifling grooves.

Lands- the raised portions in a rifle bore that are the remnants of the original bore surface that was not cut when the grooves were added. (could call land diameter the same as bore diameter in our context)

OK....When that slug pops out after driving thru it should have more or less the reverse imprint of the inside cross section dimensions of the bore. The widest diameters as measured on the slug would be the barrel groove diameter (opposing bottoms of the grooves)

Just looking at your +/- .451-2 that you are calling "groove in bore".... that mearuement seems closer to standard bore diameter in most 45 cal rifles. A .451-2 bore diameter usually means about .458-9 groove diameter.

Re-check your numbers and definitions.

Best bullet example: if the bore diameter on your 45-120 is about .451 and the groove diameter is somewhere around .458 you'll want to start trying bullets sized to about .458 then work up to about .460.

Since old guns can have wide variations of dimensions it's possible your groove diameter numbers are correct.... just making sure!!! might save a lot of headaches and poor shooting.

mt charlie,
Sorry, you beat me to the same idea! Hope this doesn't p on your hydrant :)

barnacle B
Yes, slugging a bore is very easy. Always surprised that some avoid it.
Yes, paper patching bullets has been around awhile- at least the early 1870s or before. You don't think Matthew Quigley would be out-of-period do you :)

Also added, a simplified drawing showing the "deal" about bores, slugs, etc.

Usually the best diameter bullet to start with is barrel groove diameter.

The numbers that I measured of the slug were the groove diameters. not the bore diameter. measured from high point to opposite high point but got slightly different measurements when I measured the other groove diameter. How do you accomodate the different measurements?

[Black Prince]

Use the measurement that is the larger of them to start with. Try it and see how it works for accuracy and any tendency to lead the bore. ( Assuming proper bullet alloy and lube.) Recover bullets and examine them for fit. Look at the land and groove engraving on the bullet. Are they completely filled out? Is there any evidence of slipping? Is there excessive lead behind the bullet (on the bullet base) at each land where it displaced bullet metal?

Those things will give you an idea of whether or not the bullet fits your barrel. A potential problem I see in what you have said here is that the normal cast diameter of bullets designed for .45 caliber rifles are larger than the measuremnents you have given here. If you size those bullets down to say .453 or .454 or there abouts, you are going to be sizing them a lot. In my experience, that does not do anything good for accuracy. You may have to pop for a custom mould, but that is no biggie because if you are going to do good shooting, you need a good mould anyway and Lyman does not make them.

Of course, you may size those suckers down 6 or 7 thousands and they still shoot good. There is always the exception.

This is all a part of loading and shooting these rifles. Almost everyone goes through some of this in one way or another working up accurate loads. Don't be discouraged. If it was easy, everybody could do it. Just go through the process until you get a good load.

As 405 has correctly said, it's all about bullet /barrel fit and then finding out what velocity your rifle likes for that bullet, or IF it likes that bullet at all, and make up a load to drive the bullet at that speed. Then you can experiment with bullet alloy, powders, primers, wads, lubes, seating depth, compression ratios, enlarging flash holes, crimps and so on, but that is the fun part of all of this.

BTW, got any idea of the barrel twist rate on those rifles?

[MT Gianni]

Waksupi, Never use grandiose words when diminutive ones suffice.

[405]

barnacle,
Agree with Black Prince! use the larger measurement.

For perspective- jacketed bullets have about 100 BHN (hardness index) skins. Bullets like Barnes X (var) are about 100 BHN thru and thru. If you study the diameters of jacketed bullets in relation to the bore and groove diameters of the barrels they're shot in- you'll notice it's quite common for them to be under groove diameter by .001 and in some cases not too much over bore diameter. Yet because of their hardness and toughness compared to cast bullets they are almost always much, much easier to get to shoot accurately at high pressure and at high velocity and don't suffer from the same fragility flaws that can plague cast bullets. Guess that's why so much of this forum is dedicated to the finer points of shapes, weights, lubes, dimensions, alloys, powders, wads, cases, chambers, throats, bores, etc. with cast bullets. Usually a string of difficult objectives in search of an impossible goal :)

Most BP bullets have a BHN of between about 5 (pure lead) and maybe 10 (20:1 alloy). Soft alloy cast bullets used for most BP shooting are so plastic in nature there is little problem with forcing them into tight holes.... as long as it is within reason.... usually up to about .002 oversize... more than that seems to gain diminishing returns, but exceptions do exist

I've found (at least satisfied in my mind) that BP does tend to obturate slightly undersize bullets to fill the space available but it is almost always better to size them to fill the hole or even over-fill the hole slightly first, in a controlled manner, than to rely on the sometimes upredictable nature of obturation..... undersized bullets can obturate slightly crooked (off axis) resulting in inaccuracy. Or, an undersized bullet can obturate a tad late resulting in gas blow-by, leading, excess fouling and inaccuracy.

[barnaclebill]

Use the measurement that is the larger of them to start with. T A potential problem I see in what you have said here is that the normal cast diameter of bullets designed for .45 caliber rifles are larger than the measuremnents you have given here. If you size those bullets down to say .453 or .454 or there abouts, you are going to be sizing them a lot.





BTW, got any idea of the barrel twist rate on those rifles?

I am going to re-slug the bores to insure that my previous test was valid.

I will check the twist rate today.

Darn it , when you guys indicated I was in the right Forum you were right. I really never realized that there were so many variables and idiosyncrasy's in the construction and dynamics of a simple bullet. I am an Engineer and appreciate the depth and detail of information you all are giving. It is greatly appreciated. The 45-120 is so dad gum heavy [16 pounds ] . No offhand shooting with that sucker. I think most of my shooting will be with my Sharps 50-90 or 45-70. Lots of dies to buy.
BB

[Black Prince]

http://i29.tinypic.com/kd515z.jpg

NOW we are making music! We are on the same sheet and in the same measure. You are on the right track Bbill. All you have to do is get in the same key, on the same note and timing, and we'll be Nashville bound! Uhhhh, I mean headed for the shooting range.

[barnaclebill]

NOW we are making music! You are on the right track Bbill.

I just took a real close look at the 45-120 slug I made and it has 5 grooves The 50-90 has 3 grooves so there are no grooves opposite each other to measure accurately. What do you do in a case like this?
Wish I knew how to play Guitar ! I can build one but can't play it.
BB:confused:

[Black Prince]

Bbill

There are days when I wish I could play them dern gitfiddle things too.

When I have been in the situation that you are, I took the largest measurement that I could get on the slug and used it as a starting place. This is shooting; It ain't rocket science. A lot of what we do is "about" right because a lot of rifle manfacturing was "about right" or "as close as we can get." You can measure several barrels of the same caliber from good rifle makers and often get plus or minus 3 thousands difference. That is because allowable tolerances are plus or minus one thousand. You will be within 3 thousands on your measurement of the slug, even if you can not get exactly across opposing grooves, so you are "about" as close as you can get.

In this BP shooting business, 3 thousands can be a lot or not, depending on a lot of variable factors. Don't get bogged down in that kind of thing. Take the best measurement that you can and move on with it. Even if it isn't exact, it's better than guessing what it is.

As 405 has explained, there is a bump up factor in shooting BP with lead bullets that are essentually plastic under the condition of barrel presssure, and it can help size the bullet to fit the barrel. It is best to start with the bullet being as close to correct diameter as you can get, but it does not have to be exact. Your rifle accuracy, or lack of it will tell you if it is "close enough" when you shoot it. Bullet sizing dies are cheap. Try several different sizes if you need to and find the one that works best in your rifle. Then get a bullet mould to cast a bullet close to that size so that you size it as little as possible before shooting it. The best of all possible worlds is to have it come from the mould and go right in the rifle without any sizing at all. That however, is sometimes a little hard to achieve given that the metal shrinks in the mould as it cools.

Get "close enough" and your rifle will shoot fine. It's like picking a guitar; Get "close enough" to the note, and as long as it's in the same key, it won't make much difference.

[montana_charlie]

I just took a real close look at the 45-120 slug I made and it has 5 grooves The 50-90 has 3 grooves so there are no grooves opposite each other to measure accurately.
When I made up that drawing, I secretly wondered if you might have odd numbers of lands and grooves.

I have never had that situation, but the best remedy I have heard (without needing special equipment) is to take one of the thinner steel leaves from a set of feeler gages and wrap it snugly around the slug.
Measure that diameter, then subtract the thickness (times two) of the leaf.

That will only give you groove diameter, but that is the dimension you will size bullets to, anyway.

Another approach to choosing a bullet diameter is this...
Do a chamber cast of the rifle. You will probably want one eventually, anyway.

Measure the diameter of the 'freebore' (the area in the chamber between the end of the case and the start of the rifling) and choose a bullet which most nearly fills THAT diameter.

That is the dimension I go by all of the time...rather than my groove diameter.
Because the bullet (when it 'bumps up') is going to fill that space, anyway....I feel you may as well start out with a slug that fits the hole.

BTW, that chamber cast is going to tell you some other important things like chamber depth and freebore length.
CM

[405]

I just took a real close look at the 45-120 slug I made and it has 5 grooves The 50-90 has 3 grooves so there are no grooves opposite each other to measure accurately. What do you do in a case like this?
Wish I knew how to play Guitar ! I can build one but can't play it.
BB:confused:

A sluggers greatest fear- the odd land/groove conundrum :mrgreen:

Since all you are trying to do is to get to ballpark bullet diameter to start so you don't invest or waste a bunch of time and effort into grossly undersized bullets that won't work well, fear not! A couple of months ago I had the same problem slugging a bore with odd number of lands/grooves. It was a 43 Spanish Rolling Block- an odd critter anyway! I slugged as usual. Using a large magnifying lighted lupe I did a best guess estimate measurement across the tops of the groove impressions on the slug at points corresponding to a line intersecting the center of the slug as nearly as possible. That would be on top of one edge of a groove impression to the top edge of the opposing groove impression. The geometry of it is that it will give a slightly undersized reading of the true diameter but close enough! I added .001 to that figure for good measure. In this case my measurement as described was close to .439. I sized some 385 gr soft cast plain based bullets to .440. Loaded up some mild smokeless rounds with 5744 and yipee. Excellent accuracy and minimal leading and fouling!!!! Success on first try. Was it exact rocket science- no. Did it work- exceedingly well. Yet is was ballpark only.

Another way would is to carefully and lightly wrap the slug with some thin but stiff foil. Measure across the diameter, subtract 2X the thickness of the foil. The figure should be close to the true diameter. But it is tedious and a little tricky to get exact. Still no worries- just looking for ballpark figure :mrgreen: This method may work a little better for the 50 cal three groove.

Sorry again mt charlie and BP! Didn't mean to step on your posts. Seems like we're all on the same wavelength on this one and posting simultaneously. Also, barnacle, looks like the A Team is on it!

Good luck!

[barnaclebill]

A sluggers greatest fear- the odd land/groove conundrum :mrgreen:


Another way would is to carefully and lightly wrap the slug with some thin but stiff foil. Measure across the diameter, subtract 2X the thickness of the foil. The figure should be close to the true diameter. But it is tedious and a little tricky to get exact. Still no worries- just looking for ballpark figure :mrgreen: This method may work a little better for the 50 cal three groove.

Sorry again mt charlie and BP! Didn't mean to step on your posts. Seems like we're all on the same wavelength on this one and posting simultaneously. Also, barnacle, looks like the A Team is on it!

Good luck!


Did some more measuring at the corner of the grooves and the numbers are

45-120 5 grooves .457" 29" barrel 1 1/4 twist
50-90 3 grooves .512" 20" barrel 3/4 twist

Do these numbers make more sense?

BB

[Black Prince]

Now look Bbill, if you are going to try to do this right, you are going to have to go all the way or none. So if you want to measure the slugs and the twist rates on those original rifles, you are going to have to get in the right "spirit" and frame of mind. You wouldn't be having this trouble if you were in the right '"spirit." So here's what you have to do now:

First you are going to have to be purified. I ain't kidding you. The best way to do that is in a sweat lodge while breathing some white sage that you have in the water that you sprinkle on the hot rocks every now and then to make the steam ya see? You don't smoke it now; you breathe it. It'll clear out all of the crap in your mind and allow you to concentrate on the important things.

That'll bring you to the second issue; you'll have visions of great heards of buffalo and be one with the Great Spirit. This is a very kool thing. You will feel like you are weightless and that you can fly. You will know the secrets of the universe.

Third. You'll come out of the sweat lodge nekkid and dance around the fire while all the members of this board poke sharp sticks at your privates.

Yeah. I KNOW it's a tuff thing to have to do, but dang it, do you wanna know this stuff or not? And besides that, most of these boys are old and they can't see well enough to stick you with those sharp sticks, but I remember this one ole boy that just seemed to get stuck ever time and after he got out of the emergency room , he . . . well, he doesn't come around here anymore. He was a poor sport if you ask me. I'll bet he still can't measure a slugged barrel.

Come to think on it, your numbers make more sense that getting your privates poked with sharp sticks. I'd use them if I were you and just forget about being as one with the great spirit.

[405]

barnacle,
Much better and makes more sense! Now when you order bullets to load in those you can make a better guess for bullet diameters. For starting out just order small quantities of bullets to reload, and let the gun tell you what it likes. For example : without having done the measurements but given the numbers you have for the 45 cal I'd order a few bullets of .458 and a few at .459. Maybe in the 20:1 to 30:1 alloy range. Lubed with BP type lube of course :)

I wouldn't start at the heaviest either. I think you were giving the total twist for the barrels. The standard unit of measure for barrel twist is inches per one revolution . So I think by converting I get something like a 1:23 twist in the 45 cal and 1:27 in the 50 cal. An easy way to measure for the unit so everyone is talking same language is: Lay gun in a cradle or cleaning holder. Take a cleaning rod with jag and snug fitting patch. Place patch in muzzle and move up and down bore a couple of times. This ensures the patch and rod to be tracking the same as the rifling. Situate so patch is about two inches into the bore at muzzle end. Mark the exact top of rod at edge of muzzle. Place similar marks at two inch intervals down the top of the rod say from about 18 inches to about 28 inches. That should cover most of the range we need for these barrels. Slowly push the rod in until one of the marks makes one rev and comes back to exact top. Measure from the first mark to that mark = inches per rev = twist rate. The 45 should show about 1:23 or (23:1 if you wish:)) and the 50 about 1:27. IF so that's it!! Then a judgement can be made and information exchanged here and elsewhere about various bullet possibilities.... the idea being stability of the bullet in flight.

To start, in the 45 cal I'd try something like a bullet in the 400-450 gr range. If tempted to get up into the 500-550 gr range like the long range big boys shoot :) stability may get iffy. I know for example that a 45-110 loaded with BP with a twist of 1:18 (tighter twist than the 1:23) will stabilize a 520 gr bullet to long range. One of the Gov service rounds for the 45-70 trapdoor with a twist of 1:22 used a 500 grain bullet and it proved to be stable but was probably nearing the limit.

Keep on pluggin' :coffee:

[Black Prince]

To add a little to the information 405 has correctly provided above,

Analyze before loading. Always stay within the bullet weight intended for your twist rate. Try to select a bullet with the longest bore surface, best balanced, shortest ogive to tip measurement, highest ballistic coefficient, and best sectional density, in that order.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/ = good sight calibration calculator free on the Internet.
http://www.z-hat.com/twistrate.htm = barrel/bullet twist rate calculator that is free on the internet, or use the table below:

.458 = bullet diameter
Column one= bullet length in inches
Column two= twist rate needed to stabilize bullet
1.374 to 1.424 1 in 27
1.425 to 1.480 1 in 26
1.481 to 1.541 1 in 25
1.542 to 1.606 1 in 24
1.607 to 1.678 1 in 23
1.679 to 1.756 1 in 22
1.757 to 1.841 1 in 21
1.842 to 1.936 1 in 20
1.937 to 2.040 1 in 19
2.041 to 2.157 1 in 18
2.158 to 2.288 1 in 17
2.289 to 2.435 1 in 16
2.436 to 2.603 1 in 15
2.604 to 2.796 1 in 14
2.797 to 3.020 1 in 13

What this is saying is the slower the rate of twist, the shorter (and thus lighter) the bullet has to be to be stabilized, or the faster the rate of twist, the longer (and thus, heavier) the bullet you can stabilize and shoot accurately in that barrel. Keep in mind that the rotational velocity, or stabilization velocity, is a function of two things: One is the twist rate of the barrel, and the other is linear velocity. All other things being equal, the faster you drive the bullet down the barrel (linear velocity), the faster it will spin and the heavier (longer) bullet it will shoot accurately. The limiting factor on that is how far the bullet will maintain its velocity down range. While rotational velocity decays at a slower rate than linear velocity, it does slow down the further down range the bullet goes. So if you want to shoot a heavy bullet very far, you need a relatively faster twist rate, and you need to move the bullet down range at a sufficient enough speed (linear velocity) to maintain rotational velocity to the distance you want to shoot.

This beats the heck out of getting poked with sharp sticks to learn how some of this stuff works.

[405]

to what Black Prince said. Couldn't have said or presented it any better.

[Nardoo]

Shootin' my 45/90 with its steel butt plate and no shirt on is kinda like being poked in the privates with a stick. I hit the long gong five outa five at the last Rondy an' all the guys started talkin' about sharp sticks. And when I buy more Sharpses my wife threatens to get a sharp stick too.
This is an old Indian custom aint it, this pointy stick thing?

Nardoo

[Black Prince]

Hee, hee. Shore seems that way sometimes don't it? A squaw with a sharp stick can ruin your whole day and play hell with your rifle shooting. Maybe we oughta work up a table to determine the velocity we need to be moving to be able to avoid a squaw with a sharp stick? I'd say our velocity ought to be hers plus 10 unless she has a habit of throwing those sharp sticks. If that is the case, our velocity needs to be hers plus about 50. Bbill is an engineer and he can work out the formulas and calculate the tables. As evidenced by the fact that he has all of those nice rifles, I'll bet he has already figured this out. I'm trying to get a kitchen pass to go to the shooting range from the chief squaw, so I don't have time to do it.

[barnaclebill]

Postell, pyrodex, Grease Cookie, Roosters, FFFg, Moist burning Powder--And I thought one of the main saynigs was "keep your powder dry" Lubricants, Alox, Beeswax, centrifugal Force and G's [that one I know] Crisco, [thought it was for baking] Cold putty, Lubricity, vaseline [Yup--used that too] Sperm whale oil [the only ingredient I have] , Velocity. Acceleration, Pressure, wax paper, [do they make that anymore?]Grease Cookie [again-I just like that word and want to use it] Vaporize, wadcutter, Minie Lube, injectors, grease wad extruder, [ this is getting exciting]Twist, Naked Bullets, [must be one of my past girlfriends], GOEX, Pope, nose diameter, Vernier, Snover, Fouling, wheel weights, linotype, dwell time, Paper patched, reducing dies, smokeless, fluxing, spru hole, grains, cutoff plate , hard spru, driving bands, cavitation, neck die, flash hole deburring, [ I know,don't enlarge the flash hole], decapping, resizing, Duplex [I like the idea of not cleaning after every shot], Fouling, volumetric, SR-4759, Flare, primer, Compress, taper, scoops, dribble, drop tube, compressing, lubricating wad, "the "tragedy " of it all, GREASE COOKIE !

Just read " Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" Matthews.

This just looks dead easy

Translation
Pour powder in case and push in a bullet.
As an Engineer-------I like this !
Barnacle Bill

Thanks all for the latest help

[Black Prince]

I know what you mean Bill. I've watched engineers build large buildings. They just dig a hole, pour a lot of concrete and steel in it, and a building results. It just looks dead easy.

[barnaclebill]

I know what you mean Bill. I've watched engineers build large buildings. They just dig a hole, pour a lot of concrete and steel in it, and a building results. It just looks dead easy.

I thought it was that easy....

And just why can they not make moist burning Powder today?:veryconfu

[13Echo]

Moist burning powders could be made today but it would be labor intensive and therefore costly. According to the Mad Monk the secret is the preparation of the charcoal which involves choosing the best species, the proper size and age of the wood, and careful charing to have the proper percent of carbon and residues which includes wood creosote (not the same stuff used to preserve cross ties and powerpoles). All this required a lot of hand labor, much more so than merely cutting a maple tree and charing the wood. Swiss comes the closest as it uses black alder collected from pollarded trees at about 8 years old, stripped of bark, and carefully charred at a relatively low temperature. After this incorporation requires more time than typically done today and a long time tumbling in the polishing barrels to get the desired finish. Swiss is good as is the new Express powder from Goex but the best of the old time powders were reportedly better still.

Jerry Liles

[barnaclebill]

This is an interesting history lesson that I never knew---Thanks

As usual they just made things better in the good ol days. [except computers]

[barnaclebill]

I thought it was that easy....

And just why can they not make moist burning Powder today?:veryconfu

I am still here and just reading up on all the books I can find. Found lymans #47 on ebay so it is on the way.

I decided not to buy loaded ammunition but to just jump in and reload. Brass on the way.
Thanks again for all the help and I will be back in touch as I progress with this little project but as always a lot of other duties get in the way.

Books are very interesting reading but the advice I get here is PRICELESS !

By the way---is extruded formed Brass better or worse than the machined ones?

[405]

barnacle! good so see you're still with us.
I'm not sure of your exact question about the brass. Most is extruded. The base, primer and flash holes are usually swaged/punched, but can be swaged then drilled/machined. Each type of user/ reloader has their preferences. Most BPCR shooters like fairly thin neck walls, soft necks, and regular hard bases. When in doubt or have a choice get the thinner neck wall thickness type. Everyone likes concentric and even wall thickness. Depends on the application or pressure, chamber dimensions, best bullet diameter, etc.

I think??? you are referring to say 45-120 brass that began life as something else then was re-formed, trimmed or further drawn or lengthened to correct length. There is little demand for volume production for many of the obsolete types so manufacturers may never set up to produce it in quantity from their big machines. Instead, smaller companies with special extruders/swages/spinners/drawing dies use a more common parent case then re-form to the more obsolete. An example is the 40-70 SS. A lot of that started life as 30-40 Krag then was turned into 40-70SS :)... and so on. The 45-75 Win is a real bugger :(

As far as any of it being better or worse?? Don't know, again depends on application or subjective likes or dislikes or experiences. Chevy or Ford- some folks don't like Ford because grandpa didn't or a Ford broke down 50 years ago, etc. I like a lot of the Starline brass, I like Bell or Jamison, I like Winchester but have found some of their special run brass in odd calibers to be not so good. Remington is OK. Hornady seems to be good. I use Bertram when it's necessary but it can be good or not so good and it's always expensive. My favorite brass makers usually don't apply here- Norma and Lapua. One caveat about universal cases like the 45 Basic. It can be trimmed to the shorter lengths BUT beware the trimmed cases may have very thick neck walls that can interfere with chamber clearance for chambering or bullet release. That could happen (I've had it happen) with minimum chamber neck and larger bullets for larger groove diameters. I reform some cases from different parent cases but prefer to use correct headstamped brass.

[barnaclebill]

Thanks

Got my Lymans #47 today and about to read up more. My brass is from Starline. I am going to take some castings of my chambers to see what I have. Looking forward to the big reloading day but want to make sure I try and do it sortta right.

BB

[barnaclebill]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27653389@N08/2573117278/
please do not quote this link in a message

If this link works right it is a high res photo I just took of a very old Sharps Poster of all the Cartridges they made. It is to scale so you can blow it up and print it to original image size 17" X 23" on 18" X 24" paper and the cartridges will be actual size. If you have a resolution problem I will redo the photo in a higher resolution.Thanks again to all of you who have helped me along so far. I am still waiting for some back ordered reloading supplies, including Cerrosafe metal so I can make casts of my Chambers.

Enjoy the bit of history

BB

[John Boy]

Bill - here's the message from Yahoo trying to view the picture:
This photo is private.

Oops! You don't have permission to view this photo.

You should be able to post the Sharps Poster directly here in the forum. I for one would be very desirous to see it and add to my references

[barnaclebill]

Bill - here's the message from Yahoo trying to view the picture:
This photo is private.

Oops! You don't have permission to view this photo.

You should be able to post the Sharps Poster directly here in the forum. I for one would be very desirous to see it and add to my references


I will have to get this image thing figured out so I can post it in High Res.:confused:

[barnaclebill]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2573117278_509128df02_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2573117278_509128df02_b.jpg

[barnaclebill]

Sorry For Now

For now the uploaded image is only about 1.4MP and I cannot find a site to be able to post it full size at 5MP. Ideas would be appreciated. Can a 5MP picture be posted on this site? How?

BB

[John Boy]

Bill, first of all ... Much Thanks for the Chart. It is a unique look at the cartridges out of Hartford.

As for the size, one can download the chart and with their photo editor, enlarge it

You may want to try using WinZip to compress the 5mp file and then posting it as an attachment. The Zip file can a maximum 97.7mb in size to be able to post it on the forum

[montana_charlie]

I am happy to see that chart for another reason.

You know the "aka" guys? I mean those shooters who are sticklers for correct terminology when it comes to 'naming' their caliber.

One might make a statement like this...

"Yep, I went to the range today with my new .45-90 (aka .45 2 4/10ths Sharps Straight) to see if I could make it shoot as well as my .45-70 Government (aka .45 2 1/10 Sharps Straight) or my .45-120 (aka .45 3 1/4 Sharps Straight).

I think I'm really gonna like this .45 4/10ths SS cartridge (aka .45-90 Winchester) because it's ultra cool."

By the time I get done wading through all of the aka's, I don't care if he shot his foot off!

But, now...I can just show him the picture, and ask which one of those has a title under it that matches his "aka".
CM

[Mumblypeg]

Holy Cow! I am gona ax a question and I hope it don't take as long to anser as the things that barnacal bill axed.
I'v been working with my 38-55 Uberti trying to get it to shoot what I would call a good group with smokeless and got fusstrated due to the fact that it has failed to meet my expectations thus far. Now I recall that this is an old blackpowder cartrige so with my fusstration an all I just desided to load the cases up with holy black... best group so far. But that's not my question. Now I have plenty of ML ers and know how to clean them, no problem but what all do you do to this High Wall? Do you guys take the actions apart to clean the inside and if so anybody got instructions for a High Wall. I've been into all my other guns, no.1's, marlins etc. just never been into high wall.
You know this stuff is more intertaining than Jepordy!

[John Boy]

...but what all do you do to this High Wall? Do you guys take the actions apart to clean the inside and if so anybody got instructions for a High Wall.
Peg - I don't and I Won't! HiWall's are a pure pain if you haven't stood next to a competent gunsmith to disassembly and put back together. They look simple, but they ain't.

If you must - take off the wood - douse the innards good - blow dry and put the wood back on.

I too would like to see a disassembly procedure for HiWalls

[4060MAY]

Uberti Highwall not Browning/winchester Maruoko
Remove the forend
loosen the lever spring
loosen the little screw that holds the lever pin
remove leverpin
block and lever should drop out the bottom while holding the trigger
if DST push the rear trigger forward.

[azduke]

I'm new to loading black powder cartridges,loading for a reproduction .45-60 and a new rolling block in .45-70.What is the Lyman 55 and should I load to the bottom of the bullet

[405]

I'm new to loading black powder cartridges,loading for a reproduction .45-60 and a new rolling block in .45-70.What is the Lyman 55 and should I load to the bottom of the bullet

The Lyman 55 is a powder measure that has been around for a long time. Both the original version and the black powder version are near identical. The BP version they say is designed for safety with non sparking metal on the drum parts. I have both. Even my old 55 looks to be made that way??? And YES, just as in muzzle loader BP loading no air space between powder and bullet. That space can also be taken up with card wad (s). The wad can be thought of as a fiber gas check and helps to protect a plain base bullet's base and is used also to separate the powder charge from a grease cookie if one is used.

[barnaclebill]

I am still here !

My reloading stuff was mostly on back order and took them 7 weeks to ship it WOW !

So now just waiting for the UPS man to arrive.

I think the cartridge belt for 45-120 Sharps was the problem.

Glad to see you are all still there.

BB

[barnaclebill]

Well I got my reloading stuff yesterday for my Sharps 45-120 and the Sharps 50-90

I used Cerrosafe today for the first time----but the 2nd time actually worked. I took a cast of my 45-120 and the Cerrosafe slug came out to the following dimensions

Bore length for the brass was 3.176" Exactly the Same length as the brass from Buffalo Arms
Rifling measured .458" at the very end nearest the breech and .456" 3/4" further up the rifling.

Without going to a custom mold what would be a recommended bullet to cast or purchase ? Long range Target shooting is primary use. Field mice shooting may be a second target.

I got the book on Loading and Shooting paper Patched Bullets by Randolph Wright as you all recommended and think I will give paper patching a try also.

Got my Lyman Orange Crusher Press [gray now] 50 brass 45-120 , 50 brass 50-90 , 3 die set for 45-120, 3 die set for 50-90, Shell holders, Rooster Labs BP Bullet Lube, Cerrosafe, and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

No Primers
No Paper Patches
No Powder---I would like to do Duplex Loads
No Bullets


recommendations on these items will be appreciated.

I know I am missing something here besides EXPERIENCE !

Thanks

Barnacle Bill

[13Echo]

"I know I am missing something here besides EXPERIENCE !"

Oh boy. If you only knew how this grows to take over.

Well since you're loading black you'll need compression plugs in .45 and .50, proper sized expansion plugs for soft lead bullets, extra die bodies to hold the plugs, a good supply of Fg black powder (those cartridges can really go through a lot of powder in a hurry) try Goex to start, bullets cast in an appropriate alloy (30 to 20:1 lead to tin) with an appropriate black powder lube (many choices, SPG, Black Magic, home brewed, etc), wads of various types and thickness to try (a lot of shooters use and like LDPE in .003 to .006" thickness), primers (try a variety, many like CCI, My rifle seems to like Rem 9 /12), rifle cleaning supplies - a really good, heavy duty rod, appropriate jags, and patches, proper BP solvent (water works as good as anything), proper oils and solvents to finish (don't use anything with ammonia! If it is a copper solvent don't use it with black!)

For the 45 try a bullet like the Lyman Postel or Paul Jones Creedmoor of about 500 to 540gs. For the .50, well for any distance, you're going to need a bullet of at least 600 grs. Good moulds come from Lyman, Saeco, RCBS. Custom and semi-custom from Paul Jones, Brooks, NEI, Buffalo Arms, etc. Cast diameter of the bullet should equal groove diameter or be just a tad larger. Slightly small bullets may bump up but this isn't always reliable.

Since you're on the cast bullet site I presume you have some equipment. No? Then, eventually, you are going to want to a lead pot, alloy, dipper, moulds and mould handles.

It's amazing how this all accumulates.

Good shooting.

Jerry Liles

[Don McDowell]

Go to www.sageoutfitters.com , they can fix you up with excellent bullets and wads .
Then hop over to grafs and get an order in for 1f powder and maybe some Goex Cartridge , and the primer of your choosing.
If your 3 die set is of the lyman variety, and has the M die it can be used fairly effectively for a powder compression die , should you actually think you need to compress the powder.
A slow drop thru the 24 inch droptube of a Lyman 55 bp measure works to settle the powder down in the case real well.

[barnaclebill]

When I made up that drawing, I secretly wondered if you might have odd numbers of lands and grooves.

I have never had that situation, but the best remedy I have heard (without needing special equipment) is to take one of the thinner steel leaves from a set of feeler gages and wrap it snugly around the slug.
Measure that diameter, then subtract the thickness (times two) of the leaf.

That will only give you groove diameter, but that is the dimension you will size bullets to, anyway.

Another approach to choosing a bullet diameter is this...
Do a chamber cast of the rifle. You will probably want one eventually, anyway.

Measure the diameter of the 'freebore' (the area in the chamber between the end of the case and the start of the rifling) and choose a bullet which most nearly fills THAT diameter.

That is the dimension I go by all of the time...rather than my groove diameter.
Because the bullet (when it 'bumps up') is going to fill that space, anyway....I feel you may as well start out with a slug that fits the hole.

BTW, that chamber cast is going to tell you some other important things like chamber depth and freebore length.
CM

I previously did a slug of my 45-120 with the 5 grooves and measured it again and mysteriously this time when I rotate the slug in the calipers the max dimension is .456"...a couple days ago I received my Cerrosafe metal and took a cast of the chamber including 1 1/2" of the bore. Measuring with the same technique I get .455". If I measure the diameter at the very end of the freebore just before the start of the rifling I measure .468"...BIG difference. very hard to measure the bore with 5 grooves.

[barnaclebill]

Use the measurement that is the larger of them to start with. Try it and see how it works for accuracy and any tendency to lead the bore. ( Assuming proper bullet alloy and lube.) Recover bullets and examine them for fit. Look at the land and groove engraving on the bullet. Are they completely filled out? Is there any evidence of slipping? Is there excessive lead behind the bullet (on the bullet base) at each land where it displaced bullet metal?

Those things will give you an idea of whether or not the bullet fits your barrel. A potential problem I see in what you have said here is that the normal cast diameter of bullets designed for .45 caliber rifles are larger than the measuremnents you have given here. If you size those bullets down to say .453 or .454 or there abouts, you are going to be sizing them a lot. In my experience, that does not do anything good for accuracy. You may have to pop for a custom mould, but that is no biggie because if you are going to do good shooting, you need a good mould anyway and Lyman does not make them.

Of course, you may size those suckers down 6 or 7 thousands and they still shoot good. There is always the exception.

This is all a part of loading and shooting these rifles. Almost everyone goes through some of this in one way or another working up accurate loads. Don't be discouraged. If it was easy, everybody could do it. Just go through the process until you get a good load.

As 405 has correctly said, it's all about bullet /barrel fit and then finding out what velocity your rifle likes for that bullet, or IF it likes that bullet at all, and make up a load to drive the bullet at that speed. Then you can experiment with bullet alloy, powders, primers, wads, lubes, seating depth, compression ratios, enlarging flash holes, crimps and so on, but that is the fun part of all of this.

BTW, got any idea of the barrel twist rate on those rifles?

I finally got my Lyman press and brass and now for the bullets. I was going to order some complete cartridges from Buffalo but decided to do my own instead. The bullets from Buffalo for the original Sharps are .459" But after doing a Cerrosafe cast and slugging I get a dimension of .455". I may be fretting all this too much but Isn't .459" too big? I am trying to avoid resizing costs for now till I get the hang of all this. Can a reloading press be used or is a sizing press required?....or a hammer? I have measured till I am blue and am just not comfortable yet with my options. Maybe paper patched? Options???????
Thanks
Barnacle

[405]

BBill,
Not quite sure what to make of the huge throat diameter and the small goove diameter???

I'm not sure if you were asking about swaging down or resizing a bullet with a large arbor swaging press or just using a regular reloading press with a bullet sizer die. Something like a Lee bullet sizer die works easily in regular press.

Order a few normal .458 or .459 cast bullets in a reasonable weight range 400-500 gr. Order a Lee bullet sizer in .457. Push the .458 or .459 bullets thru and load some and shoot.

For smokeless loads you might try 5744 powder. Lyman shows some 45-120 data for smokeless. I think you said you're gun was original? If so I'd just stay with blackpowder. For black just GOEX FFG with a fiber card or two along with a small pea size gob of BP lube on top or between card wads then lightly compress the bullet onto the charge column. Adjust the BP charge thus the loaded cartridge OAL so that the nose or front drive band just makes contact with the lands. Make note of the hardness of the bullets tried (BHN) number. Probably should start with BP lubed bullets (like SPG) with a BHN range of 8-15.

Later, you can open up the Lee sizer if needed in small increments as you load test- not a big deal if you're handy. For an "estimated" .455 groove dimension no problem starting at .457 bullet. Sizing down bullets by even several thou is not a problem. You could even get the .454 Lee die and run the .458-.459 bullets thru it to test the loads then open it up if needed.

Still.... that big throat diameter may be problematic... just have to see how the loads and gun act. Clean often and note excessive fouling or leading. Keep us posted

[barnaclebill]

BBill,
Not quite sure what to make of the huge throat diameter and the small goove diameter???

I'm not sure if you were asking about swaging down or resizing a bullet with a large arbor swaging press or just using a regular reloading press with a bullet sizer die. Something like a Lee bullet sizer die works easily in regular press.

Order a few normal .458 or .459 cast bullets in a reasonable weight range 400-500 gr. Order a Lee bullet sizer in .457. Push the .458 or .459 bullets thru and load some and shoot.

For smokeless loads you might try 5744 powder. Lyman shows some 45-120 data for smokeless. I think you said you're gun was original? If so I'd just stay with blackpowder. For black just GOEX FFG with a fiber card or two along with a small pea size gob of BP lube on top or between card wads then lightly compress the bullet onto the charge column. Adjust the BP charge thus the loaded cartridge OAL so that the nose or front drive band just makes contact with the lands. Make note of the hardness of the bullets tried (BHN) number. Probably should start with BP lubed bullets (like SPG) with a BHN range of 8-15.

Later, you can open up the Lee sizer if needed in small increments as you load test- not a big deal if you're handy. For an "estimated" .455 groove dimension no problem starting at .457 bullet. Sizing down bullets by even several thou is not a problem. You could even get the .454 Lee die and run the .458-.459 bullets thru it to test the loads then open it up if needed.

Still.... that big throat diameter may be problematic... just have to see how the loads and gun act. Clean often and note excessive fouling or leading. Keep us posted

Thanks
As for the throat diameter I am a little confused I think. When I measure the Cerrosafe slug I get .463" dia. grooves at a point just before the throat chamber starts. At the point where the throat chamber ends just before the grooves start the dia. is .476". I sized one of my brass and the diameter at the very end is .475". The thickness of the brass is .oo9" and fits the chamber nicely with just a touch of tightness.. When I push a lead ball through the dia. is .454".

I realize that my numbers keep changing but I have used 3 pairs of good calipers and taken the measurements several times keeping careful not to damage the slug. I cannot account for the differences.

Lee Sizer
You mentioned "opening up the Lee Sizer" I thought the sizers were all made to a particular size and non adjustable. Could you please elaborate on this a little for me? I am planning to use my new Lyman reloading press for sizing.

Thanks Loads
Bill

[405]

bbill,
I think it's making more sense now. I thought of the possibility that you were measuring the transition from chamber (portion where case fits) to actual bore. The throat is a transition between the chamber and the bore.... that's why the varying measurements from end of chamber to bore. Sounds like you are probably ok to begin testing.

If your best estimate of groove diameter is .454-.455... would be good to start with bullet of about .455. Yes, the Lee bullet sizers come in sizes. But they can be opened up without too much trouble. (can go into that later and the info has been posted here a few times- so is somewhere in archives) The current sizes Lee offers include .452, .454 then jump to .457. If you have .457 bullets on hand you can run a few thru the .454 sizer to see how your gun likes them. If you get more leading than should be or the accuracy is not what should be you can open the die up to .455, size a few bullets at that diameter and test.... and so on. If you go with straight .457 bullet it may be problematic in seating depth in case, may not shoot as well and may cause a too tight chamber fit with the loaded round. To test the chambering- seat a .457 bullet without powder and chamber the dummy. You should have some clearance between case and chamber walls for safety and ease of chambering. This will also let you get a feel for max OAL where bullet contacts lands. Doesn't have to be much chamber wall clearance along bullet shank maybe .001-.002.

.....as the equipment list grows :mrgreen:

[RMulhern]

barnaclebill

Here's the chart:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/CartridgeChart.jpg

[barnaclebill]

Thanks for posting my bullet chart....Someday I am sure I would have figured it out . I was reading one of the new books that were recommended " Shooting Buffalo rifles of the old West" or something like that, and it said that Sharps NEVER made a 45-110, Maybe so but I have a 45-110 Original Sharps that was CONVERTED by Sharps. 16 pounds. Also the chart does list a 45-110 Cartridge. So ???? Always a little confusion thrown in.

Finally I got lead pot and molds and wheel weights and gave it a first try. Everything went pretty fair but I think I melted some Zinc weights as I just discovered in the forum, they floated and did not melt right away. Only a couple of them tho. After casting a couple dozen of each I found that as they were getting better without wrinkles they were a bit frosted in color and I presume that maybe this is caused by a too hot lead temp. Am I correct here? Next time I will use it cooler. Maybe I need a thermometer. After casting my chambers in my Sharps 50-90s I Discovered they were both 50-70. As for the 45-110 I was correct on that one--But alas, that is what is stamped on the barrel. Now I just have to cast the 44-?? At least they stamped .44 on the barrel. Thanks again to all for the help and I will now just get back to casting. I also just found an old mold I have had for 50 years of 3 lead WW1 soldiers that I can cast.

[405]

bbill,
Good to see you're still plugging away!

Yep, that "powder in case" naming versus the "case length" thing is always confusing. Throw in the Winchester and other BP straightwalls of the era and yikes!

I think the 45 2 7/8.... could be 100 (gr powder), 110 or 120 depending on the amount of powder and length and seating depth of the bullet. Same for the 45 3 1/4 could be from about 100 thru 125. Throw in the 45 2 3/4 and it could be either 100 or 110! An overlap kinda thing. For those who reloaded..... the 2 7/8 could be say 45-107.5. When I load my 45-110 to be exact I'd have to say the cartridge is 45-84 with the 520 PP bullet and the wad column. :mrgreen: So long as the case fits the chamber correctly no big deal.

Yep the frosting on the bullets is usually high heat. Some like a little frosting some like chrome shiney. I like completely filled out mold and sharp edges which ever way they look. Also, might check the BHN of the extra zinc batch to see what it turned out. :roll: If the BHN is maybe 10 or less you're probably OK for the Sharps bullets. If it's too hard who knows? and may depend on how well they fit the groove diameter, etc. Some of how well they work depends on if smokeless or BP and the type of lube and so on. All sounds like progress!

[RMulhern]

BB

Sharps did make a .45/110 and for several years there were thousands upon thousands of rounds of .45/110 shipped to Wyoming for the Buff hunters! Kenny Wasserberger has much info on this caliber as he is a friend of this caliber and he has much historical data on where/who received the shipments of ammo from Sharps Company! Sharps DID NOT MAKE a .45/120 as a commercial caliber which isn't to say that someone....a rifle crank somewhere.....didn't have a reamer to bore out the .45/110 a little farther to the .45/120! I've had occasion to test a .45/120 a few years back but not long enough to give it a real wringing out! Preliminary testing made me think that I could get it to perform real well but I never got that chance! Recoil was not bad I must state with a hefty charge of 1F Goex!

Yes...you need a temp guage and my experience has been when casting all-lead bullets that a working temp of around 750F makes for some good bullets! Having the mould HOT ENOUGH in the beginning makes for good bullets right from the 'get-go'! I put my mould into the open flame of a stovetop for around 3 minutes and then I start casting and the bullets are good after about two being cast! Also....JUNK LEAD is a 'no no'! Too much zinc or antimony might cause you a problem! For several years now I go with a known quantity of alloy; either 1-16 tin/lead or 1-20 which works well for me! If the temp is TOO HOT yes....it will give frosted bullets...with the alloy or TRASH that one may be using! In the final analysis.....it is best to work with an alloy that you know is true.....rather than saving a few pennies and then winding up with junk bullets!:castmine::castmine:

[barnaclebill]

More Great Info. Thanks

I got part of my problem solved... I kept getting bullets that were looking a little wrinkley but after about 200 bullets at all different temperatures I finally noticed that the bad area was always in the same mold {2 cavity mold] The other bullet always had a stripe down the side. I then looked at the mold with a powerful magnifying glass and sure enough the imperfections were in the mold [I guess I can't expect too much from a $20 Lee mold,] I polished the mold with a little fine Scotchbright pad and now it throws great looking bullets at 650 degrees using a lee 20# bottom pour pot. They fall out of the mold very easy now as there were also small burrs on the edges.I have a pile now of a couple hundred bullets to put back into the pot and have more fun. Now on to the next steps of getting the bullets on the ends of a few pieces of brass without blowing myself up. One small step for Bill. looking forward to shooting these things.

Thanks Again :castmine:
BB

[barnaclebill]

I just sized my first bullets and referred to the books with no luck.

Here are the numbers

Lee casting . die 459"

Cast Bullets measure .460-.462"

Sized bullets to .454" with Lee sizer using the supplied Liquid Alox.

After sizing the bullets are .454" but there is a ring of lead on the base of the bullet. I presume that some of this is normal since the excess lead has to go somewhere.

Some bullets were much harder to size than others and of course left more lead ring on the base.

What is the normal procedure for removing this thin ring of lead? I used a razor blade on some of them which worked fairly well but sort of crude . I presume we want to keep the base of the bullet as smooth and square as possible. Is there a special or homemade tool for this?

Am I trying to size too much? [ up to .007" ]Since I am just starting this adventure of casting bullets I prefer not to have custom molds made at first.

It is interesting that the Instructions with the Lee Bullet Lubricating and Sizing Kit say to lube the bullets and let dry overnight then size them and relube the sized portion. Also the instructions say "Traditional bullet lubricating methods of placing lube only in the grooves are inferior to the modern method of coating the entire bullet with Lee Liquid Alox."

This leads me to a final question as to when to do pan lubing as I have planned to do before sizing or after sizing assuming that the bullets still have Alox on them and the decision as to whether or not to remove the Alox before pan lubing. :castmine:

These bullets are for my 45-120 Sharps original rifle.

Thanks BB

[Jon K]

Bill,

Did you slug your barrel?
Sounds like you have a .454 die, not a .459. .454 should be way too small for your Sharps.

I would slug the barrel first , then order the appropriate size die(.001-.002 over), or shoot as cast, if it will chamber.

Pan lube should carry enough lube for you to size, if you're only sizing .001-.002.

Jon

[barnaclebill]

Bill,

Did you slug your barrel?
Sounds like you have a .454 die, not a .459. .454 should be way too small for your Sharps.

I would slug the barrel first , then order the appropriate size die(.001-.002 over), or shoot as cast, if it will chamber.

Pan lube should carry enough lube for you to size, if you're only sizing .001-.002.

Jon

Back on page 5 of this thread I was having all sorts of problems and dimension changes to my bore but this is the latest. I think I missed one step in the process that had been previously recommended and that was to open my sizing die to .456 . Dumb me. I am using WW for the lead. I am going to switch to my .50-70 Sharps as I think I have the proper dies and sizer for this one and get back to the 45-120 Sharps later. I just want to start shooting one of these babies.

I previously did a slug of my 45-120 with the 5 grooves and measured it again and mysteriously this time when I rotate the slug in the calipers the max dimension is .456"...a couple days ago I received my Cerrosafe metal and took a cast of the chamber including 1 1/2" of the bore. Measuring with the same technique I get .455". If I measure the diameter at the very end of the freebore just before the start of the rifling I measure .468"...BIG difference. very hard to measure accurately the bore with 5 grooves.

[Jon K]

Bill,

Measuring w/5 grooves is difficult, as you wll not get a good reading trying to measure directly over the slug, because of the odd # of grooves. Take a piece of thin shim stock, wrap it around the slug, measure and minus 2x the shim thickness is your groove diameter. It may not be an exact measurement, but close enough to figure, how much larger you want to size the boolit.

After get that info, measure your chamber size and see if the chamber will accept the boolit + brass + clearance.

Jon

[barnaclebill]

Bill,

Measuring w/5 grooves is difficult, as you wll not get a good reading trying to measure directly over the slug, because of the odd # of grooves. Take a piece of thin shim stock, wrap it around the slug, measure and minus 2x the shim thickness is your groove diameter. It may not be an exact measurement, but close enough to figure, how much larger you want to size the boolit.

After get that info, measure your chamber size and see if the chamber will accept the boolit + brass + clearance.

Jon
That is exactly how I got the final measurements with the wonderful advice from others in the thread. I have even assembled a sized bullet with brass [ no powder or primer ] and loaded, aka pushed it, into the rifle and let the rifling slide the bullet into the brass, ejected the assembly and got a starting measurement for the total length. I presume that I must now get my sizer right and then try again to get my total length. I still have the casting and my slug so I can recheck my numbers. BB

[barnaclebill]

bbill,
Good to see you're still plugging away!

Yep, that "powder in case" naming versus the "case length" thing is always confusing. Throw in the Winchester and other BP straightwalls of the era and yikes!

I think the 45 2 7/8.... could be 100 (gr powder), 110 or 120 depending on the amount of powder and length and seating depth of the bullet. Same for the 45 3 1/4 could be from about 100 thru 125. Throw in the 45 2 3/4 and it could be either 100 or 110! An overlap kinda thing. For those who reloaded..... the 2 7/8 could be say 45-107.5. When I load my 45-110 to be exact I'd have to say the cartridge is 45-84 with the 520 PP bullet and the wad column. :mrgreen: So long as the case fits the chamber correctly no big deal.

Yep the frosting on the bullets is usually high heat. Some like a little frosting some like chrome shiney. I like completely filled out mold and sharp edges which ever way they look. Also, might check the BHN of the extra zinc batch to see what it turned out. :roll: If the BHN is maybe 10 or less you're probably OK for the Sharps bullets. If it's too hard who knows? and may depend on how well they fit the groove diameter, etc. Some of how well they work depends on if smokeless or BP and the type of lube and so on. All sounds like progress!

Finally got my first Cartridges loaded and ready to test them out. Everything went pretty smoothly but a couple things are a bit confusing.
First of all
I sized all the bullets with the same sizer.
I sized and expanded all my cases at the same time with the same tools.

BUT ! some of the bullets do not fit the brass and if I pick and choose the bullets I can find one that fits. Something seemed not to size correctly.

Next on loading powder.

A 50-70 is supposed to hold approx. 70 grains. I am weighing my powder in grams [Select Hodgdon Pyrodex-RS- FFG Equivalent as I cannot locate any Black Powder locally ] and I can only load 3 grams[46.3 grains] Maybe grains and grams are somehow different for powder. I am filling to about 3/16" below the mouth of the bass and seating the bullet 1/4" so I have a compression of about 1/16". Nothing between the lead and powder on this batch. Unless my calculations are faulty I cannot explain why my loads appear so small but I am sure you have a good idea.
Thanks BB :castmine::confused:

[calaloo]

Th same volume of black powder and Pyrodex weigh differently. Pyrodex is lighter.

Bill

[barnaclebill]

Th same volume of black powder and Pyrodex weigh differently. Pyrodex is lighter.

Bill

Thanks, The other thin I learned through reading last night is that there are grains by weight and also grains by volume.
I guess I should have known that since I knew that there are liquid ounces and volume ounces. Whoever came up with this system? :Fire: My Lee Pro powder measure is on the way.

[Mike Venturino]

In SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES it DOES NOT say that Sharps never made .45-110s. I know because I wrote it. It says the Sharps Rifle Company never called them by that name, instead going by the case length of 2 7/8 inches.

In fact they never labeled any of their rifles by the dual set of digits we're so familiar with today such as .45-70, .45-90, .40-90, and .45-110.

The ammo companies of that era loaded the .45-2 7/8" with 90 to 120 grains of powder and bullets as light as about 290 grains and heavy as 550 grains.

The Sharps Rifle Company never chambered for the .45-3 1/4" cases or the .50-3 1/4" cases. That is except for one Model 1878 "Borchardt" made especially for an ammunition company as a test vehicle.

Read more slowly and you will get more comprehension from what you read.

MLV

[405]

Yes,
MLV's books "Buffalo Rifles" and "Lever Guns" deserve a place in every Guns/Shooting/Reloading library.

[barnaclebill]

In SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES it DOES NOT say that Sharps never made .45-110s. I know because I wrote it. It says the Sharps Rifle Company never called them by that name, instead going by the case length of 2 7/8 inches.

In fact they never labeled any of their rifles by the dual set of digits we're so familiar with today such as .45-70, .45-90, .40-90, and .45-110.

The ammo companies of that era loaded the .45-2 7/8" with 90 to 120 grains of powder and bullets as light as about 290 grains and heavy as 550 grains.

The Sharps Rifle Company never chambered for the .45-3 1/4" cases or the .50-3 1/4" cases. That is except for one Model 1878 "Borchardt" made especially for an ammunition company as a test vehicle.

Read more slowly and you will get more comprehension from what you read.

MLV

I may be a bit mistaken but no need to get insulting. Sometimes the way a sentence is written can be mis-interpreted when reading. First of all I made a mistake and referred to the wrong caliber. I meant to say 45-120 which is the 16# rifle I have and it is clearly marked 45-120. The rifle is a conversion done by the Sharps Factory. One of my Sharps only says [caliber .44]. My "Old Reliable" which is a Model 1874 Sporting Rifle has no markings as to size at all. This rifle is pretty cool as it is in new condition and was owned by the Sharps Factory and shot by Charles Overbaugh in 1876 , [ He designed the German pattern Model 1874 Sharps as well as the Model 1877 in the competitions with other manufactures The gun then went to Creedmore, The Target Range on Long Island, NY. The two Carbine 50-70s do not have any markings at all and are both Sharp Factory Conversions.
I am just rambling but it sort of fits in th conversation.
Never fear---I am still going to buy your Lever Action Book as I throughly enjoy reading " Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West".

Sorry for the misunderstanding..as I passed 65 it just gets better as I can get more Lever Actions and Sharps-------Which are lever actions---Right?

PS: How is a Borchardt Rifle Identified?

BB :coffee:

[montana_charlie]

Thanks, The other thin I learned through reading last night is that there are grains by weight and also grains by volume.
I guess I should have known that since I knew that there are liquid ounces and volume ounces. Whoever came up with this system? :Fire: My Lee Pro powder measure is on the way.
Back when the amount of powder used (by a shooter) was determined by pouring it into a measure with a known volume, it was necessary to have some 'standard' that could be used universally. Water (unlike gunpowder) weighs the same, no matter where on the Earth you are. So, a measure that holds 70 (weighed) grains of water will have exactly the same volume as another one made in a different country.

70 (weighed) grains of water uses less volume than 70 (weighed) grains of any kind of powder. So, if you scoop out enough powder to center a scale at 70 grains...you will have substantially more powder that would be thrown by a 'volumetric measure' marked in (water) grains.

In other words, you would overcharge the piece!

Make note of that when using Pyrodex. It is intended to be measured volumetrically, using a black powder measure...and they (in keeping with tradition) are all marked in 'water grains'.
CM

[Mike Venturino]

Bill: I didn't say that to be insulting. I meant it as sage advice because as a writer one thing I often run into is that people "scan" what they're reading and don't get it right. I wouldn't have responded at all if you had written .45-120 instead of .45-110, so let's just forget it.

As for your Sharps conversion, the factory likely didn't stamp it .45-120. In the hundreds of original Sharps I've inspected and the better than 200 Sharps company factory letters I've read, I've never seen them refer to a rifle by the caliber and powder charge. Perhaps it was done at a later date?

By the way, that Sharps on the cover of my Buffalo Rifles book is a factory .45-70 conversion.

Mike V.

[barnaclebill]

IT SHOOTS IT SHOOTS !!!! :castmine:

I finally got it mostly all together sans grease cookie and took my new Sharps 50-70 reloads out for a trial run with my Sharps Carbine......1st offhand shot at 100 yards with iron sights blew up a 1 gallon milk carton of water. I use precise targets as you see. As for the 1 quart milk carton I blew up the stump it was sitting on and by the 10th shot my shoulder was giving out and the 11th shot fizzled as I forgot to load powder in it. The bullet went a little bit up the barrel but was easily ram rodded out at home with a wooden dowel. I was happy as a clam and they are all reloaded for the next adventure. This is just way too much fun ! I am now working on reloading for the 1886 45-70 Winchesters . one with an almost smooth bore. I love these lever actions.

I just wanted to thank all of you for all the assistance you gave me in this venture. All the advice was greatly appreciated and please forgive me for lot of dumb questions I may have asked :drinks: BB