Do You thrust Your's tools? Italy Germany 1-2

[Motard]

My thumb of the rule for buiyng tool is: A) skip China B) always prefer a tool made in 1900 than new century production, C) German made is better.
May be non the smartest rules but since now, not being a professional, they did worked well to me. Recently I badly messed up taking the slunging of my new Win '94 bore. Had two differents measures untill I ralized I did took them with different tools. A Wurt's (made in Germany) dial caliper I use quite a lot and a Veglia Borletti (made in Italy) micrometer. Well having not a check-bar, as Mitutoyo, I whent to a late-shop and made some comparative this mornin. Veglia was the right reading one. Luckly It can be easily correct but worth knowing153477.153478

[Springfield]

1. Skip China
2. Use the older Starrett tools I inherited from my machinist father. I have tools in his old wooden chest that I don't even know what they are.

[country gent]

Several rules I stand by.1 if you need it buy quality and perfer name brand. 2 if you have to borrow one 3 times buy it you need it. 3 buy what you need mics with standards, scales with check wieghts, measuring tools gages indicators that have certification of standard with them. Buy tools from reputable manufacturers and suppliers. Not saying youll never get a bad tool but name brand reputable is a much better chance of it being repaired replaced if not right.

[bangerjim]

Starrett and B&S only here! Older is better! Only buy the best. I have tools in my several machinist chests that are over 100 years old. Quality never wears out!

Buy HF/China/ENCO/CARP only if you cannot afford the best! That is all I trust for all my machine and metal work, which goes a LOT farther than just gun work!!!!!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Measuring tools...Yep, I buy the best I can afford. I do have some china made measuring tools, I've checked them out, and they do OK, ±0.0005 I have them when co-workers need to borrow them. I work with a few engineers who are young and have little respect for the tools they borrow from me.

Hand tools: Same thing, but since NEW USA made tools are cost prohibitive, I scrounge pawn shops, antique stores, and farm auctions for OLD USA made hand tools. Most of the time, I am able to buy OLD USA made hand tools cheaper than new chinese tools...as long as you don't factor in my time as labor :veryconfu

[Green Frog]

You're missing a good bet by avoiding all Asian-made tools. I love my Mitutoyo dial calipers and micrometer... and yes, I have a set of 0-1" through 5-6" Starrett mics as well. Oddly enough, for most reloading purposes I find a Chinese mic and caliper I got from Lyman to be adequate... but maybe that's just me. JMHO, YMMV. ;)

Froggie

[Uncle R.]

I remember a time in the early '80s when Japanese measuring tools were widely scorned.
My employer at the time bought some NSK (Japanese) dial calipers for an absolute rock-bottom price.
When I checked them on tool-room standards they were dead on through their entire working range.
No discernible error anywhere.
They were more accurate than any other dial caliper in the shop at that time, Swiss, German, American.
At least one of them is still in daily use now thirty-odd years later, and still very accurate.
I think most machinists now will acknowledge that name-brand Japanese measuring tools are world class.

Just sayin'

Uncle R.

[akajun]

Mit's are my go to tools when purchasing new measuring tools, I also have some older NSK and Yuasa Measuring tools that are spot on, though they are showing their age after being dropped dozens of times. My NSK mic's are still dead on though.

Next in line is B&S and Tesa, which are often the same tool,
then old starret, new starret is not worth what they cost anylonger, the levels, punches, and blocks are still good though.

I will confess that I do buy cheapo calipers, indicators, and mics from Enco when they are on sale, like 10-15$ a pair. I leave these in the open near my lathe, mill, welding table, work area as I do not care if they get dropped, they are totally used for non critical applications and convienence of use. I periodically will check something with them, and for the hell of it will check the part with another top dollar measuring tool or against a standard, I have not found one yet that has been off. Now the calipers dont run as smooth, and the mic's feel a little too smooth, but they seem to be accurate, definatly accurate enough for reloading.
The indicators, specifically the MHC branded ones, I find to be very accurate and reliable, I keep one mounted as a travel indicator on my lathe, it seems to hold up well to the vibration, heat, coolant, oil, and flying chips.

[rbuck351]

I bought a set of Enco Chinese mics 0 to 4" about 25 years ago that are graduated to .0001. They came with stds and still read right on. Very good mics. I used them daily in an engine rebuild shop for about 7 years and they worked every bit as good as the Starretts other folks were using.

[quasi]

dial calipers are not as accurate as micrometers.

[Motard]

dial calipers are not as accurate as micrometers.

thats thrue :-)

Sent from my C6903 using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.

[rbuck351]

Yeah, it's hard to argue with that.

[Petrol & Powder]

When it comes to nationalities known for quality, Japan is actually pretty high on my list. Not everything from Japan is high quality and there's a huge difference between Japan and China but there are some good Japanese made tools.

I'm not a machinist so my requirements are not as tough but I do like to buy some tools only once. I'm with akajun, inexpensive tools are good for applications where they may become damaged as long as you understand what those tools are.

[Jtarm]

I have nothing against Asian and like Japanese quality but I positively refuse to fund the Chi-Coms.

Buy quality & it only hurts once.

[JWFilips]

Really don't Thrust my fine tools...that would screw them up big time:bigsmyl2:
I trust my Starrett's and My Mitotoyo's

[EDG]

Want nice mikes?

European
1. Alina/TESA/Etalon and some Swiss made Brown and Sharpes are made by TESA these are all Swiss made mikes and are high quality
2. Mahr - these are very heavy and high quality German mikes

Japanese
1. Mitutoyos
2. Some NGKs were made in Japan


American made
1. Brown and Sharpe (American made models)
2. Starrett
3. Scherr Tumico/Tubular Micrometer/Scherr/ George Scherr (all the same mikes with the older Scherr mikes dating to the 1930s)
4. Lufkin discontinued in the 1970s or so and they are often well worn


Condition of any of these is of paramount importance.

A cheap like new Scherr Tumico can be easily found because they were made in huge numbers for the US government and it will be a better tool than a
beat up Etalon.

There are maybe a 100 other brands that range for excellent to junk.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK this is a subject I am pretty familiar with and used to be pretty much pro American or Swiss. Now not so much!

Tools are bought to do a job. The number of times you need to do that job should have a bearing on how much you spend for said tool.

I used to be a Snap On/Craftsman advocate. However a few years ago I broke a 1/2"-3/8" drive reducer I had bought from Harbor Freight. So I went to Sears to get a better replacement,,, Shock! The Sears tool was 3 times more and was the EXACT SAME tool with a different Roll Mark! It even had the same imperfection in the stake mark to hold the detent ball in,,, Meaning it was made in the same place,,, China! Closer examination revealed that all of the Craftsman Wrenches and Sockets were identical to the Pittsburg Brand that Harbor Freight sells, and typically at least 3 times the price!

I am now done buying tools from American Companies that have their products produced in China.

Snap On Broke my heart. All their stuff is made there now too.

I have a Timing Light I bought from Kragen Auto Parts. $79.95. A friend bought a Timing Light from a Snap On Tool truck. it was the same light with a Snap On sticker in place of the Kragen sticker! $279.95! When he saw mine he was pissed!!!!! he called the Snap On guy who we confronted latter that day.

He cheerfully refunded my friends money.

They are counting on the fact that you won't know the difference, and 99% of the people won't so they get away with it. They suck outright. I won't buy anything from Snap On ever again.

As far as precision measuring tools are concerned anything Swiss is probably good. I have 0-3" Tesa Micrometers. I also have a complete set of Etalon Mics form 0-9" that I got for a song,,, Literally.

Some Starrett tools are good. Their layout tools and scales punches and dividers are some of the best ever made, and I love mine. Their calipers are Ship! The rack is not covered and they get stuff in the rack and skip. Micrometers are OK but there are many others that are better for the money.

Mitutoyo also makes good stuff, Calipers are great and their Micrometers are great too. I have lots of their stuff and it all has lsted and performed well.

Some of the better known Chinese tools like Fowler Brand are good.

However,,, and this is the big rub, are you buying the tools to do a job, or to have nice stuff.

If you are only going to use the tool a few times there is no reason to buy the best. It is a complete waste of money. You buy tools to do a job, and if you are only going to do that job once, then you buy a tool to do THAT job, or better yet borrow it for that job.

I have lots of tools that I have bought for specialized jobs on my machines. They never got used that much as they were for specific jobs. Re sale of those tools will be at a loss since they are so specialized, there is a very small market of people who might need them.

Nope,,, for limited use, buy what you can afford but don't waste your money. The Name Brands mean little any more. You can buy used name brand tools, however you better know what you are looking at, as a worn out name brand tool or one that has been hurt in use, is not better than a new Chinese tool.

For measuring boolits a cheap Chinese Mic will probably work just as well for you as a $150 Swiss one.

If you are making Aerospace Parts probably better to buy the Swiss one.

Randy

[slohunter]

I picked up a Mitutoyo at a garage sale for 5 bucks. Reads exactly the same as my Starrett.

[tim338]

I try to avoid anything made in China. Some of the taiwanese made stuff is decent quality.

[country gent]

I trust my gage blocks standards and pin gages, they are standards. All measuring tools are checked against them before use to insure they are zeroed and accurate. Even my reloading scales get checked with check wieghts before use. A group to measure at or close to charge wieght lets me know that 60 grn ( ex) is actually 60 grns not 59.7 or 60.3. The only way to know what your measuring tools are is to check them against known standards pin gages or gage blocks.

[EDG]

W R Buchanan has the right idea about the cost and value of tools but I will add another 2 cents worth

1. if you are a causal mike user you may not care how it feels in your hand.
Having used mikes nearly 50 years has made me very fussy about how the mikes feel in my hand. Yes I can use any mike. But if I am measuring something to .0001 I want the mike to feel just right. I have a small collection of micrometers and some of them feel crummy even though they are high quality mikes. they just don't feel like my old Brown and Sharpe 8S that I have used so long.

2. the other issue for some people is they might tend to be penny pinchers and buy a mike that is not very good because they are uneducated about these tools. Mikes are not tolerant of much abuse or sloppy manufacturing.

3. Then you will have the other extreme. That is the person will have little knowledge and will buy something like a TESA or Etalon to guarantee they get a good mike when an old Lufkin, Scherr or Reed would have done just as well for 1/10 the cost.

Example

I once bought 3 old mikes off of Ebay for $9 plus shipping.
One is a very old and very heavy Starrett 238 which weighs about 3X the weight of a normal mike. This heavy duty mike was still in perfect working condition and needed no adjustment when I checked the calibration.
One was a very old JT Slocomb with the wear take up device that works something like an anti backlash mechanism. Again - no calibration was required.
The third was not expected to be anything but a paper weight.
It was a 1930s Reed which is the same design as a Scherr or Scherr Tumico or a Tubular Micrometer. It had a etched and pitted frame because it has been left in contact with a piece of cloth or something similar. However after it was cleaned up it calibrated right on the button and would work as well as any other mike for most hand loaders - except it is really ugly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I trust my gage blocks standards and pin gages, they are standards. All measuring tools are checked against them before use to insure they are zeroed and accurate. Even my reloading scales get checked with check wieghts before use. A group to measure at or close to charge wieght lets me know that 60 grn ( ex) is actually 60 grns not 59.7 or 60.3. The only way to know what your measuring tools are is to check them against known standards pin gages or gage blocks.

And herein lies the rub. A Micrometer is nothing more than a "C" Clamp with a precision screw thread and a way to precisely gage the number of turns it is opened. However it can be accurate if you know exactly how many turns it is open, and that corresponds to a known dimension.

This is where calibration comes in. The best micrometers in the world still need to be Calibrated from time to time.. Heat alone will change the size of the Frame, and that will change the zero. Simply closing the anvil on a known size will verify what the micrometer is actually reading and from there you can proceed with confidence that the tool is telling exactly what is there,,, as long as you do it the same way every time. (Rub #2)

Even a cheap HF Chinese Micrometer can be calibrated to read on the money. As long as the screw thread inside is consistent and mates with the Thimble's female thread with little or no slop then the tool will be accurate,,, as long as it is calibrated correctly.

And certainly good enough for measuring boolits made out of soft lead!

Randy

[David2011]

dial calipers are not as accurate as micrometers.

I have cheap micrometers as well as Mitutoyo and Starrett. The good micrometers have .0001" verniers on hem so no question there if I need a measurement that accurate.

I also have dial and (Ugh!) digital calipers. I have "always heard" how much better micrometers are than calipers but to .001" they all read the same so what's the difference?

David

[EDG]

Because calipers are highly dependent on technique so they lie to you if you think they measure to .001.
If you want .001 down to about .0001 your calipers in industry are worthless. You have to use a mike and it needs to be well calibrated.


I also have dial and (Ugh!) digital calipers. I have "always heard" how much better micrometers are than calipers but to .001" they all read the same so what's the difference?

David

[dragon813gt]

I understand all that. But for bullet casting purposes I see little difference between the two. I can use a caliper or mic to measure a bullet. They both will tell me .359. For a machinist I completely understand why you want the best and most accurate tools. For casting purposes the calipers and mics you can buy at HF work fine.

I have a cheap plastic caliper that I use for measuring pulleys at work. They only need to get me to the closest eighth of an inch. No need to spend good money for a good pair that's going to get beat up riding around in a van. "Truck calibration" is very real :laugh:

[W.R.Buchanan]

Because calipers are highly dependent on technique so they lie to you if you think they measure to .001.
If you want .001 down to about .0001 your calipers in industry are worthless. You have to use a mike and it needs to be well calibrated.

Ditto on EDG's point! More mistakes are made in machining due to bad readings from Calipers than any other single thing.

I have ruined enough stuff in my career to prove this point beyond 100%.

I never trust my first reading, and I always do it several times to insure I get repeatable readings. I do this with Micrometers as well.

If you can't get a repeatable reading, you have gotten a good reading.

It is as simple as that.

Randy

[smokeywolf]

My calipers are Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharpe and Starrett. My micrometers are Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, Mitutoyo and Tesa I have both standards and gage blocks to check all of them.

I much prefer mechanical or mechanical-digital to electronic measuring tools. My Mitutoyo and Starrett electronic measuring tools are used mostly when SPC is required.

I think as long as you can buy used American, German, Swiss or yes, even Japanese made precision tools on the on-line flea market/auction sites, there is no reason to lend more of your support to the Chinese economy. We/I already buy lots and lots of China made stuff. If you can still get an older non-Chinese tool that's better quality, why buy a new Chinese tool?

Somebody mentioned old Lufkin tools. I have an old Lufkin machinist's square (set) great old tool. Old Lufkin is among the best.

In the 1950s, at Lockheed, if you got caught with a Craftsman wrench in your tool chest you could be fired. Craftsman sockets, box-end and line-wrenches had thicker walls which would rub against the wall surfaces of a spot-faced area leaving scratches. Scratches were a potential start for fatigue cracks; especially around a bolt or rivet. Williams, Armstrong, Proto or Snap-on were the only wrenches or sockets allowed.

It all boils down to buying the best tool your budget can tolerate and be sure to allocate some of that money toward a calibration standard.

[David2011]

Because calipers are highly dependent on technique so they lie to you if you think they measure to .001.
If you want .001 down to about .0001 your calipers in industry are worthless. You have to use a mike and it needs to be well calibrated.

I was referring specifically to my tools. Maybe my technique is good? I don't know; I just get the same answer whether I use a .001" dial caliper or a .0001 micrometer when looking for measurements to .001". Jacketed bullets are pretty consistent in size. They're useful to compare one device to another. I get the same measurements ---TO .001"--- regardless of the tool. If I need a better answer than .001 accuracy I use a .0001 micrometer. I NEVER said I try to measure closer than .001 with the calipers. Not sure where that came from. I don't want or expect them to be that good but then I'm not a tool and die maker. I just fix guns. I assumed the calipers were not especially accurate. Experience has taught me otherwise. I prefer to use the micrometers when accuracy was important but the truth is that the measurements are not different between the mikes and calipers in my collection at the .001 level.

So, if a bullet measures .451" with the mike and .451" with the calipers, where is the inaccuracy?

David

[David2011]

Ditto on EDG's point! More mistakes are made in machining due to bad readings from Calipers than any other single thing.

I have ruined enough stuff in my career to prove this point beyond 100%.

I never trust my first reading, and I always do it several times to insure I get repeatable readings. I do this with Micrometers as well.

If you can't get a repeatable reading, you have gotten a good reading.

It is as simple as that.

Randy

Hmmm. When I was teaching gunsmithing classes the main mistake was the students not paying attention even with good measuring tools. One in particular cut EVERYTHING he made .002-.003 undersize. He would get within .003-.004 of the intended size and then overcut the finish cut every time. I tried to teach him how to not do that for two years without success. But this was the same guy who, after crashing the carriage into the chuck twice within 30 minutes looked at me and said, "It keeps hitting!" :veryconfu

David

[footpetaljones]

Buying only American made tools is a bandwagon I don't think I'll ever get on. There are plenty of scumbags that live in between LA and NY and some of them are in charge of manufacturing companies. If I need a tool that I am not depending on I'll first look for a used one, then Harbor Freight/Craftsman. If it breaks, I'll buy a quality replacement. For tools I do depend on, I'll again look for used ones (sticking to reputable manufacturers) or buy directly from reputable manufacturers.

[Jtarm]

IDK about Starrett measuring tools, but their wood-cutting bandsaw blades are the best-kept secret in woodworking.
Seems like everyone wants Lenox or Timber Wolf. I've tried them and neither cuts as smoothly as a Starrett resaw blade costing 1/2 as much a Timber Wolf. I guess it's because they're not widely available off the shelf. I have a supplier who welds them to length.

[1_Ogre]

I only use Starrett tools for measuring. My OLD calipers still are good to 0.001" or finer and I need nothing better than that. Get good reputable tools, take care of them, keep them clean and don't abuse them and they will outlast you every time. Remember, measure twice, cut once