1911 front strap stippling

[Love Life]

Good evening to all.

I am working on a retro hardball 1911. I have the AMU books, and have searched the internet, but always come home for good info!

How did the old AMU gunsmiths stipple 1911 front straps? What tools did they use? Nail punches, armor piercing bullet cores, etc?

Thank you for any and all information you can provide!

[country gent]

Most used a prick punch and small hammer 4-6 ounce. They got very good at this. The trick is not to set the punch on the surface but hold it 1/8"-1/4" above the surface and hit it lettig it "bounce" you do this in a continuous cycle quickly mocing the punch as you go. Setting the punch and hitting it gives rows and columuns that isnt as functional or pleasing to the eye. Bounceing and hitting continuously while moving the pucn gives a nondirectional surface more pleasing to the eye. Also when doing this make a steel filler for the mag well to support it so it doesnt get sprung or bent. The added support also gives a more consistant finish as you go. Its quick to learn grab up a piede of cold rolled steel sharpen up a true prick punch (Sharper angle than center punch) and start trying it. I ground some punches for stipling wood cane handles that really did a nice eye pleasing and greatly improved gripping surface. It dosnt take alot of force to do this.

[Love Life]

Thank you for the information Country Gent. So something like this?

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[Greg S]

Yup that's a prick punch. As CG stated. If you can get some 1/4-3/8 plate for the edges and clamp it in the vice it will prevent loosing the lines along the edge. As stated, hover the punch just above the surface and quick light tapes. On your practice piece you can play around with force of the blow. It won't take much more on the hardened frame.

[Love Life]

Thank you!

So to make sure I understand the purpose of the plates: They are to line up with the line where the flat transitions to the rounded front strap? That is to make sure I don't beat the sharp transition out of shape? Great tip and thank you.

[country gent]

Another trick that helps alot coat area wanted with layout blue or ink so you can see where you are at and working easier. Good even light helps alot also. What you are looking to do with the punch is raise a sharp edge on the edge of the prick punch mark. The plate guides are a big help. Ink these also to cut down on glare. Ive been known to even lightly hone the point sharp on the punch. We used drill blanks shrapened to the angle / shape we wanted. In the wood I used an oval .093 long and .030 wide. A little practice on a piece of scrap goes a long ways here. Some would also use a flat paint on the surface supposedly to help keed punch from sliding, Ive never tried it. Find a stool that is comfortable hieght for your vise. Get comfortable and look at the piece imagine what you want and place the punch where you want to start. 1/8"-3/16" above and start tapping the punch while slowly moving it . work a border and then try small circular movement going in a direction. The reason stippling was done was it is faster and easier than checkering, Some frames housing arnt quite thick enough for checkering, and 4 axis cnc equipment that could do this unattended .002 at a time werent redialy available. Stippling done correctly is an art form and can be an interesting surface. Oh and when you get a finger or knuckle with that small ball peen it still hurts like the dickens. Dont watch the piece or the pattern watcth the top end of the punch. When your looking somewhere else thats where the hammer goes. LOL

[seagiant]

Hi,
You might want to use a 4 sided punch point instead of round?

I don't stipple 45's but do stipple BHP's

Mark Graham at Arizonia Response Systems has a nice DVD on rebuilding BHP and goes into stippling quite heavy.

It is a nice DVD if you enjoy working on Hi Powers also! ALL knowledge is good!

[Love Life]

Thank you for the advice. I like the looks of the hardball guns of yestercentury. Good advice to protect my thumb as well. I learned that the hard way using a gas check making tool, lol.

[country gent]

Experiment with diffrent punch points 3 sided, 4 sided, ovals or even Vees. all give a diffrent look to the stippling and all can be very effective. Alot of the old armorers used the standard prick punch they used to pre punch layed out holes, mainly because it was handy and there. Some ground special punches up. In wood I pefer the oval 3/32 long 1/16 wide with a radioused end intead of sharp. This gives a nice gripping surface and dosnt cut the grain as bad. Stippled a piece of lexan with this style punch at work one night and it was a good gripping surface and really looked interesting. Must have looked to good as with in 2 days the handle was gone some one took it home with them.

[Mk42gunner]

I've stippled a few mainspring housings, with a lot finer/ smoother stippling than the level A and B match 1911A1's. What I used was a combination of a smallish prick punch and a small chisel. Like 1/16" or so edge.

The best advice I can give long distance is to get a 4-6" black iron 3/8 or 1/2" pipe nipple and practice on that. Mount the work piece solidly in a vise, rest your fingers on it and let them provide the spring for the punch.

Have at it and do at least try to miss your fingers.

Robert

[jmsj]

Love Life
I have stippled quite a few 1911's for myself and for Bullseye shooters. I try and use multiple different shaped punches, resharpen the punches often and vary the amount of force I strike the punches with. I feel the key to stippling is the randomness of the stippling and stippling tight to all edges . I try to make sure that no set pattern in the stippling shows on the front strap.
I like to cut an upper and a lower border to help define the stippling. I lay out the borders on the frame and cut them to about half depth, do the stippling then go back and cut them to full depth. This method allows you to clean up any errant stippling that might end up in the border cuts.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/jmsj515/1911%20gunworks/004_zps19b42997.jpg (http://s961.photobucket.com/user/jmsj515/media/1911%20gunworks/004_zps19b42997.jpg.html)
The frame needs to be supported during the stippling. I use the Power Custom frame support system. I adjust the side plates even with the flat to round transition. This allows me to use the plates as guides to get the stippling tight to edge of the front strap without getting errant marks on the sides of the frames.
http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_713100000_1.jpg

I have learned the hard way that that if you want to stipple a front strap and want a very accurate pistol, to do the stippling first. The stippling does displace metal and can cause the frame to move in other areas. I once was brought a pistol that had Accu-Rails installed, guy wanted the front strap stippled, I did the stippling job and after the stippling the slide/frame did not cycle as smoothly as before. This can hold true for barrel fitting as well when you are trying for minimal hood clearances and even bearing on all three barrel/slide lugs.
One other thing, I have found that cast frames are much easier to stipple than forged frames. It will take more force to get the same depth of stippling on forged frames. Forged frames can also have areas that are harder in spots making more difficult to get the depth of stippling even.
Good luck, jmsj

[Blackwater]

Love Life, FWIW, jsmj gives good advice. An old WWII vet gunsmith locally, who's now 90 years old, sharp as a tack, but deaf as a board, went into gunsmithing, and became a local legend at shooting. His specialty and first love was the .45, and he built many, many very highly accurate ones. He almost always stippled the front straps, and his manner was rather unique, but not unlike the one jsmj shows above. It's smooth enough that your hand can slip or move as you want/need to when you loosen your grip a tad, but rough enough that it won't move when you grip it with some firmness. As such, it's rather a unique setup that I like very much. I have two old Colt Combat Commanders set up like that, and I love them.

There are many ways to stipple, all giving varying results. Some target shooters who were afrad the gun would move in your hand, which always seems to change POI very slightly with the .45, liked our local smith to put "hooks" into the stippling on their guns. Some insisted that blood be drawn after a shooting match, but most prefer something more "betwixt and between," so that there's no blood loss, and the hand can move when the shooter wants it to.

I think stippling is a legitimate art form, and there are any number of ways to go about it. The suggestion above to try it on some scrap or bar stock is, I think, a good one, until you get your own technique down to where you really like it. Trying it on a piece of bar stock would likely be even better, so you could afterward, grab it and feel what it performs like in your hand. I've done a little, but abandoned the practice pretty much, since I couldn't get it to come out quite like I wanted. Just really never had the time to pursue it as a hobbyist. That's what I'd do if it was me, at least, which of course it ain't. Hope this helps you find your muse in it. Like I said, I really think it's a bonafide art form.

[AggieEE]

In one of Brownell's 'kinks books was a drawing of a light brass hammer, 3-4oz IIRC, that had a lathe bit fitted to each end. A set screw in the hammer held them in. The points were sharpened to the punch shape desired. The punches were also set to be left and right. Use it like an engraving hammer, as far as swinging it. Haven't tried it but looks like it should work if you can hit where you're aiming, I can't :smile:

[Char-Gar]

There is, or at least was, such a thing as a stippling punch. Brownell sold these some years back, but I don't know if they still do. However in my opinion stippling is just cosmetic with whatever benefit being between the ears. I have been shooting unstippled 1911s for 55 years and have not missed a target because there was no stippling.

[Love Life]

JMSJ, thank you for that information and the pictures. I'm going to practice it a good bit before I go to beating on one of my guns. Once I feel comfortable, the Norinco will get stippled. If works well, then I plan to do one of my Colts.

So just to verify, do the stippling before I do any slide to frame fit adjustments and barrel fitting?

[country gent]

Along with fitting of the trigger and trigger parts. Stippling does stretch the surface of the frames grip area and the vibrations changes can cause movement elsewhere in the frame. Stippling is moving metal around one or to pricks not to much but when mutiplied buy the huundreds of pricks in a pattern it can cause movement.

[Love Life]

So should the stippling occur before I do any other work to the gun? Stipple first, and then do any other mods or work?

An aside: I love the AMU books because it shows a slide being squeezed in a vise to tighten/eliminate the horizontal play. I did just that on another gun, and peened the frame rails, lapped them in. The more I play with these guns, the less I fear doing stuff to them.

[jmsj]

[QUOTE=Love Life;3438468]So should the stippling occur before I do any other work to the gun? Stipple first, and then do any other mods or work?

That would be my suggestion.
Just a heads up, Norinco's are notorious for being very hard. Please let me know your opinion of the hardness of the Norinco frame. I've got a line on a couple of them locally I'm thinking about for a couple of projects.
Thanks, jmsj

[Love Life]

I haven't had any issues stoning them or swaging down rails, but I'll let you know when I start punching on them.

2 of the ones I bought had the notorious lug peening issue.

[JHeath]

I should be embarrassed even to speak up in this company, but . . .

I masked this with tape around the edges, and stippled it with the point of an ordinary spade bit (wood drill bit). I put the bit in contact before striking it.

The spade bit raised sharp -- but not too-sharp -- directional "teeth" that I could orient or angle as desired.

This is a Tokarev, a cheap pistol that I really like. I wasn't uptight about the risk of "ruining" it.

[Greg S]

JSMJ, That stipping with the border looks tight. Nice job.

JHeath, interesting pattern. It looks really sharp. Have you shot it yet. If it is a little to aggressive, you could dull the points with some 220 lightly and check. I would bead blast first to see if that is enough and if not some worn 220 or fresh 320. I wish I knew how to post pics, I post some of a high cut for you to contemplate ticker ing with too.

[JHeath]

It's pretty aggressive, but Tok recoil is mild and my hands are tough from working ropes without using gloves. But 220 is a good suggestion if it becomes an issue, thanks. If this were somebody's prize 10mm I would "measure twice and cut once" i.e be more cautious.

[fecmech]

Some years back I stippled a front strap on a 1911 and did it as I was taught in high school metal shop using two people. I had my wife do the tapping with a piece of oak while I held the punch and moved it around. If you practice a bit on scrap you can do a nice job. I think it's a lot easier to do a good job with two people. You just guide the punch and the other person just taps consistently.

[dubber123]

Some years back I stippled a front strap on a 1911 and did it as I was taught in high school metal shop using two people. I had my wife do the tapping with a piece of oak while I held the punch and moved it around. If you practice a bit on scrap you can do a nice job. I think it's a lot easier to do a good job with two people. You just guide the punch and the other person just taps consistently.

Wow, either you are a trusting soul, your wife is more coordinated than my girfriend, or both. :) I see lots of bruised knuckles and not much stippling going on, followed by a very quiet evening.

[ole 5 hole group]

Wish I had pictures of my ole match 1911's, as the stippled front strap had sharp points. The purpose was so when you gripped the 1911 you would squeeze the grip to a set amount of discomfort - for lack of a better term - and this aided greatly in consistent grip and higher scores. That pistol never moved in your hand and you knew exactly when you had that same grip to begin each relay.

[wv109323]

I think Jack Best used and air tool with a four sided punch. His stippling was sharp enough to bring blood with 90 rounds of hardball.

[fecmech]

Wow, either you are a trusting soul, your wife is more coordinated than my girfriend, or both. :smile:
We've done 51 years together, nobody I would trust more.

[Love Life]

Update: I haven't stippled anything yet. I did end up buying a 1967 commercial Colt that had all the bells and whistles as a research item (that's what I told the wife...)

I now have a sample in hand to study. The sample is quite nice in that the frame rails were swaged, and lapped. A very light trigger, that had hammer follow. Easily corrected with a little spring bending...

All in all things are moving right along in my adventure to make a retro hardball gun.

I've got the punch and some bar stock on the way and will begin punching tiny dents into steel soon.

[country gent]

Once you get started and "learn' the process and feel of doing it youll be set to go. Start with light taps increasing to where you want the texture to be. The big trick is consistancy of the taps and keeping the punch at the same hieght. Work slow learning this as you go and increasing speed as you go. Pretty soon youll be tapping out very nice surfaces

[Mk42gunner]

So did you get the "Snort of Derision" or the "Look of disbelief" when you said "research item?" Enquiring minds want to know.

Just trying to judge how much trouble you are in....

Robert

[Love Life]

Haha. No trouble here. What I did find funny is the interior of the 1967 Colt Commercial slide is just about as rough as the interior of my Norinco slides when it comes to machine marks. My 2015 Colt Series 70 repro and Commander have much better finished surfaces.

[AF FAL]

Ok, dead thread revival...
I have been playing with the idea of stippling myself. I finally gave it a try with a project I am working on. I made a punch from 3/8" O1 drill rod, hardened and tempered it, and after playing with a piece of scrap 1018 for a bit gave it a go on a SA frame. Here are my results so far, I need to move the stippling up closer to the trigger guard a bit more still.

My tip is blunt which made it a little difficult to see exactly where I was placing the tip, so I ended up bouncing past the border a few times. I decided to wrap the stippling around to where the grip will cover it, not my first choice, but the best given my border violations I think. I tried using the power custom frame blocks, but my punch shape and diameter wouldn't allow me to get close to the border at all. I did use the power custom magwell filler. I started in the center of the front strap and basically worked my way out. I made a few randomly spaced hits, turning the punch about 1/4 -1/3 turn between strikes, then I filled in the area between strikes and continued moving along until I filled everything.

It looks way more aggressive than it is, in the hand it is a mild grip/texture, just enough to know it is there. I am going to play with tip shapes and strike angles more in the future to get variations in texture and aggressiveness.
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