Lighter loads in 308 savage 99? Sticky chamber :(

[Radarsonwheels]

Howdy!

I like to hunt with my winchester 94 in 30-30 and my scoped Rem 700 in 30-06 for longer shots. The lever gun is so handy but I like the idea of '06 velocity to hit hard a little farther out. I stumbled on a less desireable savage 99 in the gun store. It's a later model with an aluminum magazine and no counter. The stock is a little rough and it has an old sears fixed low power scope.

I figured wow best of both worlds- handy, scoped, pointy bullets, and good velocity.

The problem is that both 308 and 7.62x51 are sticking in the chamber. I took the gun out and had problems with sticky extraction. Some shots would be fine, some needed two hands to open the lever, and some needed the cleaning rod to bang out. Accuracy was not spectacular.

I cleaned the chamber with fine steel wool and thinner and the gun behaved itself for 5-10 rounds then went back to the same sticky bullcrap.

Maybe I'm missing something. There could be stuff wrong with the gun that aren't worth fixing like a pitted or rung chamber. I shot saami spec 308 reloads (2800fps recipe) and 7.62x51 turkish ammo, and both had the same problem. The extractor is plenty sharp and springy.

My next plan of attack was to see if lower power reloads would extract reliably. I just wonder how far I can go before I basically have a 30-30? I'd like to cast for punching paper, but I want to get decent performance on deer with sierra game kings and not just gently punch a .308" hole through both sides.

Any thoughts about any of this are more than welcome. I should just sell or trade the gun for cheap but I like an underdog!

radar in philly

[Vopie]

Find a 'smith with a 308 chamber burnisher. 742/7400 and BAR's are very popular with the Adironack hunters, every season we get in a bunch that the owners brought them in from the cold/wet and never cleaned 'em. That equals a rusty chamber,which equals failure to extract. Hopefully it's not pitted. Goodluck.....

[M-Tecs]

"308 chamber burnisher" could you provide a link to what this is?

[Radarsonwheels]

Well I looked up chamber burnisher on google image and the one that's listed looks like a tapered yellow metal (brass bronze etc?) allen key with a long T handle. It's a for sale listing and the description claims it is a wwII tool above the paygrade of the average british armorer and was used for vickers MGs and the like.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f324/PhiladelphiaR/Mobile%20Uploads/9E7C3F1B-ED85-46C9-BD9C-53978DC2C460.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/PhiladelphiaR/media/Mobile%20Uploads/9E7C3F1B-ED85-46C9-BD9C-53978DC2C460.jpg.html)
The tool that I made to insure it wasn't an ancient grease or carbon spot messing with me was a plastic coated coat hanger with the tip folded over some fine steel wool. I greased it and chucked it in the drill. The thin wire let me into the levergun's chamber without disassembly. I think it's time for a detail strip, cleaning, oiling, chamber cleaning and imspection followed by another tange trip with starting loads and iron sights. I was getting some erratic patterns at 50 yards, like two groups from one point of aim 5" apart.

I'm only $300 into this gun so I could always make a project of it and re-barrel/refinish the furniture. The trigger is sweet, the lever still has some good case color. The magazine works great although it isn't the cool one with the counter. I can count to five and still have a hand free ;)

As before any comments are more than welcome- even just to say throw it in the river.

thanks

[Radarsonwheels]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f324/PhiladelphiaR/Mobile%20Uploads/9523CF48-A30A-4D8F-B23F-6D32476EA373.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/PhiladelphiaR/media/Mobile%20Uploads/9523CF48-A30A-4D8F-B23F-6D32476EA373.jpg.html)

[Vopie]

Yep, that's one. Got my set from a retiring 'smith from a large firearms manufacturing company. B.T.W. burnishing is an old metalworker's term meaning to make smooth, polish by rubbing or turning... Old time bluers wood make burishers to put a high polish on a firearm before bluing.

[M-Tecs]

I would love to see details of your set. Please post some pics. Thanks

I have used chamber irons on 22 RF's and hones like this http://www.midwayusa.com/product/176172/flex-hone-rifle-chamber-hone-308-winchester-14-400-grit for gunsmithing apps.

For non-gunsmithing apps I have used roller burnishing & ball burnishing tools but this type of burnishing tool for chambers is a new one for me.

These are the types of roller burnishing tools I am familar with http://www.cogsdill.com/products/burnishing/

Ball burnishing is pushing a hardened ball through a bore. http://www.itiball.com/ball-burnishing.php

[ammohead]

Radar,

When you get your chamber issues cleaned out adjust your size die to make the shoulder of the sized case fit the shoulder of the chamber exactly. If you back off a full turn or so you will leave a bit of unsized neck that you can see. Now a little at a time lower the size die. Then carefully chamber the brass and feel the fit. Somewhere along the line you will size the neck perfectly inline with the shoulder and the sides of the brass will begin to size down moving the shoulder ever so slightly forward. You can feel this when you carefully chamber the brass. It will feel as though the headspace is too tight. If you lower the size die just a tad more you will get to where the brass chambers with no resistance. This is perfect headspace and is capable of allowing that little savage to really find its happy accuracy place. I have seen this over and over again with 99 savages. Give it a try.

[Geezer in NH]

The barrel needs to be removed and the chamber polished.

[M-Tecs]

Unless you are seeing signs of a rough or rung chamber I would look at some of the other areas that may cause this. How does the brass look? Any shiny spots or scratches on the brass?

http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/rifles/24635-savage-bolt-hard-cycle.html

http://levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23199

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3018985.0

I have done very little work on 99's but rear locking actions with limited primary extraction can have a variety of hard extraction issues not related to the chamber.

Keep us posted as to what the fix is.

[dragon813gt]

What dies are you using and how far back are you pushing the shoulder. I've had issues w/ hard chambering and sticky extraction w/ converted brass. Both were fixed w/ small base dies. I don't have a lot of reloads on the brass to know of the sticky extraction will come back.

[Vopie]

If your not having problems chambering the cartridge, and they're not to "hot" for the rifle, but are having problems with extraction after it is fired..... I would be taking a hard look at the chamber....

[Artful]

Well I looked up chamber burnisher on google image and the one that's listed looks like a tapered yellow metal (brass bronze etc?) allen key with a long T handle. It's a for sale listing and the description claims it is a wwII tool above the paygrade of the average british armorer and was used for vickers MGs and the like.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f324/PhiladelphiaR/Mobile%20Uploads/9E7C3F1B-ED85-46C9-BD9C-53978DC2C460.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/PhiladelphiaR/media/Mobile%20Uploads/9E7C3F1B-ED85-46C9-BD9C-53978DC2C460.jpg.html)
The tool that I made to insure it wasn't an ancient grease or carbon spot messing with me was a plastic coated coat hanger with the tip folded over some fine steel wool. I greased it and chucked it in the drill. The thin wire let me into the levergun's chamber without disassembly. I think it's time for a detail strip, cleaning, oiling, chamber cleaning and imspection followed by another tange trip with starting loads and iron sights. I was getting some erratic patterns at 50 yards, like two groups from one point of aim 5" apart.

I'm only $300 into this gun so I could always make a project of it and re-barrel/refinish the furniture. The trigger is sweet, the lever still has some good case color. The magazine works great although it isn't the cool one with the counter. I can count to five and still have a hand free ;)

As before any comments are more than welcome- even just to say throw it in the river.

thanks

You can also take a fired case - remove the primer and thread on a cabled Dremel - then use flitz on the case to polish the chamber - I usually follow up with a mop with flitz then a clean mop. Savage 99's don't have primary extraction like bolt guns, the case just goes in and out - and on older 99's the tilt lock bolt sometimes gets a little springy and the cases stretch when fired causing this problem, which requires some gunsmithery.

[Good Cheer]

Here's what I would do before I went any further.

1. Run a 30-06 into a 7-08 die. Don't trim the long neck.
2. Totally anneal it with good dark color almost to within a quarter inch of the extractor rim.
3. Fire form it with whatever powder charge and corn meal makes it conform to the interior surfaces.
4. Look for inappropriate geometries and disturbance of the dark color for where mechanical interference occurs.

Best wishes on your piece. Shot a 99 that was apparently lost in the woods and spent winter fending for itself. The inside and outside were pitted but it shot just fine with powder puff loaded Lee round noses. Never tried any factory duplication loads though.

[Radarsonwheels]

Howdy.

So first I re-cleaned the rifle and made a bunch of start loads with varget and sierra gameking 150gn bullets. They are supposed to expand and work well above 1600 fps so using a 2600 fps recipe should give me a nice shooting range for deer and longer than the 30-30 for open shots. I think the 30-30 is still better in brush anyway.

I got 1" groups at 50 yards with just a few 1/10th grains above start load and the cartridges and brass are acting like they are supposed to. I'm going to quit while I'm ahead!

Maybe if I decide to play with the rifle some more later I will try re-sizing with a more custom approach. For now I think I got the gun acting like it's worth the $300 I have in it.

Radar in Lower Bucks County PA

[Gtek]

Was it just me or did anybody else see the 2800 fps. Are you shooting 110's? The above advise is solid on getting in touch with sizing die, but a lever gun does not have the lug action as a bolt platform has for removing UPPER end cases. I would bet if after careful loading and pulling load down to 2400-2500 fps might change the world. Also 2800 fps in a book very rarely is real with what you have that minute, day, temp, bullet. boolit, bore/projectile measurements, etc., may fall on either side. That start low and work up thing works pretty well and you may have experienced about where they might start getting sticky.

[Radarsonwheels]

Hi

I must have exaggerated the speeds of the reman factory duplication 150 grain loads I was shooting. The loads I put together myself were start loads from the sierra book in freshly trimmed 308 cases. I'm not shooting over a chronograph so I'm just referencing what the book load recipe claimed for fps.

Sorry bout that!