Small Game 9mm Revolver Loads (?)

[RVM45]

Friends,

I used to think that the Ruger .30 Carbine Blackhawk had a lot going for it as a Long-Term Survival Gun. Note: With Lead Flat Points or Semi-Wadcutters and loaded down to about .32-20 levels—give or take.

Then a fellow asked me:

"Why not just go with a .357 Blackhawk loaded with 110-125 Grain Lead Bullets? Easier to resupply and it has the potential for more power when needed."

Cool, but for a Revolver largely dedicated to game no larger than a big possum, coon or groundhog—and when it is desirable to carry as much ammunition as practical...

9mm Cartridges loaded for use in a Convertible Blackhawk would be:

A.} More Compact;

B.} Marginally Lighter in bulk;

AND,

C.} Could use less powder to achieve the same ballistics...

In comparison to .357 Magnum Cartrdges.

So, if I want a 110 or 115 Grain Semi-Wadcutter or Large Meplat Lead Bullet loaded to rather fast velocities for the 9mm {No Idiot-Fringe Crack-Brained Fire Spitters…}

I am going to fire them out of a Ruger Blackhawk, so feeding is not even a minor consideration—and the bore will be closer to .357" than .355"...

And I like Unique, Herco and 2400—so please include them if possible...

But can you give me some bullet and starting loads please?

Thanks.


…..RVM45

[Hickok]

This is what I use in my Beretta 92 FS 9mm;

Lee 358-125FN ACWW+ 2% tin

Sized .358"

4.7 gr / Unigue 1177fps.

5.0 gr. / Unigue 1203 fps.

As always start low and work up the powder charge. These loads are what I consider MAX in my Semi-Auto pistol.

[Outpost75]

I use the Fiocchi .380 Rimmed Short (9x17R) cases in my .380-200 and 9mm Ruger revolvers, as well as in a 1930 vintage Colt Police Positive with 4" barrel. This is a .380 ACP case with a rim on it, .687" long, .377-.378" body diameter with rim thickness of 0.045". The thinner rims have presented no problem and ignition has been reliable in my 1930 era Colt, as well as a Ruger Service Six in .380/200 and the 9mm cylinder of my Ruger convertible.

The brass resembles .38 Short Colt and can be used with the same loading data. When fired in the larger 9mm or .38 S&W chambers the cases do expand a bit on the first firing, but once fire-formed they can be reloaded using .38 S&W or 9mm dies with a .38 Special shell holder and repeatedly reloaded with no problem.

I have had best results with the Accurate 36-125T and 36-155D bullets with 2.5 to 2.7 grains of Bullseye. In a strong revolver you can use a compressed charge of all the #2400 the case will hold (about 6.5-7 grains) and the 155-grain bullets give a clean burn with ballistics similar to .38 Special +P.

Before finding the .380 Rimmed Short brass I used to make 9mm Rimmed cases by trimming .38 S&W cases to .750" using the Lee Quik Trim, but Grafs had the .380 Rimmed Short on closeout very inexpensively, so I bought a lifetime supply and assembled a basic load which gives about 800 fps with the 155-grain flatnose and I can shoot in any .38 or 9mm revolver I own.

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[bedbugbilly]

Couple of questions first . .

If you have a 357, why not just shoot something like a 38 Colt Short out of it? A 38 Colt short uses minimal powder and can easily be loaded with the grain weight boolit you are talking about. And not a whole lot different in size than a 9mm. I load them a lot - use a Lee 105 SWC or a Lyman 121 gr 358-242 RN. You will still have about the same distance from boolit to forcing cone. Track of the Wolf carries the Starline 38 Colt Short or available in quantities of 500 from Starline.

Second question . . . just how much ammo do you really need to carry? I don't understand "desirable to carry as much ammo as possible". Just how much game are you running in to? Herds of possums or 'coons? And around here, ground hogs are present but not in large quantities at one time. Yes, 25 9mm cartridges may be a little lighter than 25 38 Special cartridges but here on the farm, my cartridge belt full of 25 rounds would last a loooong time for my revolver and pest control. And if you are hunting tree rats or cottontails, here we have "bag limits" and a dozen cartridges would/should last all day long and still have spares left over.

If you have a convertible . . . then of course you certainly have the option of the 9mm. If you are loading them for your revolver, there should be no problem in using a .358 lead boolit in them. For my 9mm semi-autos (SR9 and Shield), all I use is cast and I size them to .358. Your .357 Blackhawk is probably a bore of .357 so .001 over should work great out of it.

As far as loading data . . . I don't like to "quote" data. If you have a copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - there should be loading data in it for various weights of lead bullets for the 9mm Luger which will tell you the min/max for the powder type and bullet weight. The newest edition I have is the 3rd edition but it gives data for 92, 115 and 121 grain boolit weights.

Check the sites of the powder manufacturers for the powder you want to use and see what they have for loading data for the cartridge/boolet weight you want to use.

[Tackleberry41]

357 can be loaded either way, full power for hunting larger game, or down to 38 spcl levels. Probably not much you couldn't kill with it. The conversion gun is nice as you can run 9mm thru it, but a bit limiting in power when it comes to hunting. I guess your looking at something more along the line of end of the world survival gun. Unique would load just about anything you wanted in either caliber. Yea you might need 2400 for the full house 357 loads.

[NavyVet1959]

I seriously doubt that there will be that much of a weight savings since the bullet makes up the majority of the weight of a loaded cartridge. I also don't think the powder savings is going to make it worthwhile, but you *could* just take .38 or .357 brass, trim it to 9mm length, and then use 9mm load data for it.

[paul h]

I'm planning to pick up a 9mm cylinder for my old model 357 for similar us. Yes I know the cylinder will require fitting. I mostly shoot 38 sp out of the .357 anyhow.

To me the advantage of the 9mm is, once fired brass is dirt cheap and plentiful, and the brass is lighter than 38 special for carrying a larger supply of ammo.

You really won't have any appreciable savings in powder, both the 9mm and 38 sp burn 4-5 grs of powder pushing a ~125 gr bullet ~1000 fps.

If you really wanted to save weight you'd cut the cylinder back to account for the shorter round and set the barrel back to suite. Something I might do when I get a 9mm cylinder as I have a spare barrel.

[NavyVet1959]

I find that the best way to save weight is not to bring the cooler with beer with me.

But that's an unacceptable compromise as far as I'm concerned.

:drinks:

[paul h]

Thanks for the tip, don't know why I've never considered leaving the bear cooler at home when going for a hike.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/3/4/4/344100033/3311015512_EFF47C756532064167EE351C34F61E75.jpg

[NavyVet1959]

Thanks for the tip, don't know why I've never considered leaving the bear cooler at home when going for a hike.


Well, from the look of that photo, I suspect that the bears are already plenty cool, despite having fur coats.

For those of us down south, having a beer cooler is a necessity. :)

[MT Gianni]

I tried to find the Article Beagle wrote on Castpics titled "Cast in the 9mm Blackhawk" but it didn't make it to the new site. The essence is that case life is short with 9mm brass, get your best groups by far with sorting religiously by manufacturer and weight and speed is not really your friend. If I were to shoot 9mm a lot more than in do in my B-Hwk, I would go with the NOE 135 gr fn and keep it around 1000 fps. It should be a great grouse killer. I would consider the weight difference between packing 9mm and 38 special cartridges right up there with packing titanium silverware over stainless as weight difference. The reality is I would keep two 180 FN 357 shells loaded heavy as my first two rounds and two 38 specials as the second loaded with a 160 rf at 950 fps. This would allow me to open the cylinder load door, turn two clicks and shoot a rabbit or grouse with the 38 while keeping loads for surprises ready.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm not one to go heavily into the "One gun for all occasions" mindset. In retirement, I've spent a LOT more time in the back-country than I have in The Big City, the latter being the far more predator-dense environment than the former. I am much more likely to have my S&W 686 x 4" on board these days than one of the bottom-feeders--I suppose that is the best illustration of the concept I can offer. The 4" medium-framed 357 Magnum D/A revolver does a lot of jobs very, very well.

Discussions of the merits of powder-saving, weight fetishes (backpackers excel at this), sectional density/velocity quotient calculations are fun to engage in, but often don't make the cut once The Real World intrudes upon our reveries. I think a better approach is to look at what has sold successfully over the long haul and what has survived largely unchanged during that time. Numbers talk and nonsense walks--even in the face of the wholesale shift by law enforcement and citizen shooters to the bottom-feeders commencing circa 1985, the 38 Special/357 Magnum revolvers and their ammunition still sell smartly and perform admirably. I would have had a VERY tough choice to make had our shop adopted the 357 Magnum at the same time it adopted the 45 ACP in 1987. I am deeply fond of both, immediately and permanently adopting both at time of their approvals (the 357 in 1994). If forced to choose between the two, though--no contest--the 357 Magnum in a D/A platform would get the nod. For my uses, it is far more flexible and practical. Caliber Wars rage online and in LEO circles apace, no one is happy with their 9mm/40 S&W/45 ACP.......but NOBODY beefs or questions the use or utility of the 357 Magnum. EVER. And HELL YES I'm biased in its favor!

[ironhead7544]

I would use the 125 gr RNFP made for the cowboys in 38 cal.

[RVM45]

Yeah,

Thanks. It seems that I was making the equation too complicated.

I remembered reading that the .38 S&W case was a wee bit too fat to fit into a .38 Special Chamber. Then a Friend demonstrated that a .38 S&W Cartridge would fit in his Model 13.

Overlooking the fact that in a messy chaotic world the Impossible can happen occasionally—so just because something DID happen in no way PROVES that is in fact POSSIBLE...

But limiting ourselves to Pragmatics it seems some .38 Specials or .357 Chambers will admit .38 S&W Cartridges while others won't accept them.

All of this can be easily remedied by running the .38 S&W case into a .357 sizing die.

Jerry Mikulec sure seemed excited to get his new 8-shot 9mm Revolver. Said he'd save beaucoup powder...

But then I have mixed feelings about him...


…..RVM45

[9.3X62AL]

Given Mr. Miculek's preferences and game plan, the 9mm revolver CAN make sense. Ejecting a 3/4" long case COMPLETELY from a cylinder is more easily accomplished than is ejecting cases 1-1/4"+. That also might be splitting hairs, but in his environment it can make all the difference between a win and a loss. Does that translate to street/field reality? Your call. Mr. Mikulek's priority is speed, and most other variables fall behind that--a self-defender's priorities are more critical and complicated, and to my thinking getting good hit/s on the target would be my first mission.

[mac60]

I have a blackhawk convertible 9mm/.357 - I shoot much more 9mm through it than I do .38 or .357 mag. In 9mm f-c headstamp brass I load the Lee .358-105-swc (50/50 coww/soww, sized .358", Tac1 lube) over 3.6 gr. of BE sparked with a CCI500 primer. Shoots well enough for my purposes and it would probably work for yours too.

[9.3X62AL]

No two ways about it--both of Ruger's swap-cylinder Blackhawks (in 357/9mm or 45 ACP/45 Colt) are useful, flexible tools.

[NavyVet1959]

No two ways about it--both of Ruger's swap-cylinder Blackhawks (in 357/9mm or 45 ACP/45 Colt) are useful, flexible tools.

One thing to consider with the .45 ACP/Colt version is that you can load the .45 ACP rounds to .460 Rowland level and shoot them in the .45 ACP cylinder. That's not as much as you can do with the .45 Colt cylinder, but it gives you some mid-range capability using more readily available brass.

[Petrol & Powder]

Getting back to the OP's proposal, I see a dichotomy between saving weight in the ammo vs. saving weight in the gun.
A .357 Blackhawk is a fine gun but because of those relatively small charge holes in that big cylinder you're carrying a lot of extra steel around.
I agree with NavyVet that the majority of the weight of a cartridge is the bullet and not the casing/powder, so you're not saving much weight simply by using a smaller cartridge with the same weight bullet.
I'm also totally with 9.3x63AL that academic exercises, "... in of the merits of powder-saving, weight fetishes (backpackers excel at this), sectional density/velocity quotient calculations are fun to engage in, but often don't make the cut once The Real World intrudes upon our reveries. I think a better approach is to look at what has sold successfully over the long haul and what has survived largely unchanged during that time."

I think the OP selected the end result (9mm in a revolver) and then went in search of a hypothesis to support that preconceived result.

There's nothing wrong with asking, "hey what about the 9mm in a big tough SA revolver"? However that question assumes the 9mm is the correct answer and doesn't answer, "What's the best gun & cartridge for the task at hand"? That question may lead you in a different direction but the end result will be more useful and less academic.

All of that being said, If I was going to wag a .357 mag revolver around I wouldn't want the cylinder and barrel walls to be thicker than needed. I think the 357/38 DA revolver is extremely useful and trying to find some way to stuff 9mm cartridges into that platform to save just a little bulk in the ammo department (and saving very little weight in that process) isn't worth the overall costs.

[Larry Gibson]

Probably not going to save much in weight but good 9mm cast bullet loads in a 357 revolver with a 9mm cylinder are most often more accurate because of better internal ballistics with lighter weight cast bullets than the same in 38 SPL or 357 Magnum cases. I had a Ruger 38/357/9mm convertible BH with a 4 5/8" barrel many years ago. I foolishly traded it off and regret doing so. It was quite accurate with the 9mm cylinder and most of my 9mm loads were for small game such as squirrels, rock chucks, grouse and rabbits. I loaded the Lee 358-105-SWC over 3.8 gr Bullseye n the 9mm which pushed it at 1020 fps out of the BH. That load used less powder than in the 38 or 357 to achieve the same velocity and the internals and on target accuracy were much better. The savings in alloy over standard weight 38/357 bullets gave me close to 1/3 more bullets per lb of alloy. BTW, The sight setting for the different loads were known so with the easily adjustable Ruger BH sights there was never a problem with the correct zero for the cartridge/ammo used.

I now have a 45 ACP conversion cylinder for my 45 Colt Uberti Evil Roy SAA. I use 190 - 205 gr cast bullets in both 45 ACP and 45 Colt. I use 5 gr Bullseye in the 45 ACP and 7.3 gr Bullseye in the 45 Colt. With the 45 ACP (850 fps) load dead on (sights are regulated) at 25 yards the 45 colt load (950 fps) hits 2" high and is on at 500 yards. It is a very useful conversion.

Larry Gibson