1911 ejection woe or its me

[nekshot]

I am not a pistol guy but where my deer stand is I must use a handgun to shoot the one way so I decide to take one of my kids 1911's(its more compact then my wheel guns) and I can shoot it decently. I did some practice shooting according to how I might need to shoot thru the limbs and so forth of the tree my stand is in. When shooting one handed thru limbs and such the gun sometimes does not eject completely, the shell is half out of gun but slide is pinching it in ejection port. I think this is because of the way I was holding it with my hand because it never happens shooting with 2 hands or one handed when facing the target in a normal shooting style. I hope this is the reason or I must reload more ammo! One more thing, the gun has never done this before but I never shot it with my hand and gun sticking thru a tree top before. And in case you wondered shooting this way at 30 feet kept the shots in a inch and a half cluster!

[pietro]

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I've found that almost any autoloader will fail to operate properly if it's not solidly supported/grasped during the firing cycle.

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[matrixcs]

When single hand shooting a vice like grip is required to allow the slide to rack fully.
Most shooters discover this at some point.
I still need to think about it when I shoot weak hand even though I know what happens....
It is easily remedied with one hand practice.

[osteodoc08]

You're describing a stove pipe.

practice shooting weak handed/one handed and it should cycle for you if cycling normally otherwise.

Out of curiosity, what are you shooting load and boolit wise?

[Char-Gar]

What you describe is what happens when a 1911 pistol is "limp wristed". The pistol requires a firm hold and stiff wrist for it to operate properly. It tain't the gun, tis you!

[Love Life]

I use a grip strength like a firm handshake.

[nekshot]

Glad to hear its me. The load is 230 lee boolit, Unique 6 gr and win primer. I have developed a really bad habit over the last 10 years with these reduced powder rifle loads that have very little recoil, my grip on rifle laying in shooting bags is very soft and with a light trigger it encourages a soft hold more. I gotta man up and hang unto this puppy like I wanna hurt it!!!

[Mk42gunner]

Listen to Char-gar and Love Life. A weasel killing grip isn't needed, but a firm hand hold and locked wrist is.

Robert

[376Steyr]

Listen to Char-gar and Love Life. A weasel killing grip isn't needed, but a firm hand hold and locked wrist is.

Robert
So if a fella practiced with ferrets, he would be okay?:groner:

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I don't believe the cause is limp wristing. Take the gun and load out to the range and try to duplicate the malfunction by intentionally limp wristing. If you duplicate the stovepipe by intentionally limp wristing and the gun cycles with a two handed hold then you have your answer and I'm wrong. Your load is the same load I use, the gun should cycle one handed, my 1911's cycle and I shoot more one handed than 2 handed. Hundguns, especially the 1911 likes fresh recoil springs, change a 5" 1911 recoil spring every 5,000 rounds, a 5" should have an 18.5 spring. This is a nice easy and cheap fix.

We've had so called limp wristed malfunctions with other semi autos but when handing the same gun to a gorilla gripper the same malfunction occurs, then a reliable gun handed to the limp wristing suspect and the reliable gun runs fine in his hands. So take the gun to the range and try to duplicate the malfunction by intentionally limp wristing it.

if your an average sized person you should not worry about limp wristing. The 1911 has been around a long time and has been shot by people smaller than the average America with no problems.

[HABCAN]

'Stovepipes' always occur when you 'limp-wrist'. With ANY auto, simply remember to push the front sight as close to the target as far as you can force it (or visualize pushing it right THROUGH it!!) and the problem will never happen again. That method will also get rid of any vertical stringing in your groups which is a result of DIFFERENT 'pushes'. Squeeze the grips as if trying to get water out, but let your thumb and trigger-finger ride as lightly as a butterfly.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

HABCAN, that's just not true.

[Bazoo]

Proper grip pressure is acquired by squeezing until your hand shakes and backing of just enough until you stop shaking. Firm wrist is important as well.

When limp wristed, if the gun has an extended ejector, the rounds that do eject will normally eject very far back to the right. If not limp wristed, the rounds will nomally go to the 3:30 or 4:00 position.

A standard ejector would throw the casing back in your face or next to the right ear when limp wristed. And normally would throw them over the shooters head or shoulder.

Stovepipes can be caused by a week recoil spring. A sign of this is 2:00 ejection, but not always. Stovepipes is the most common sign. 16#s is the correct weight for a 5" gun, 18.5 is for commander length. You can put an 18.5 spring in a 5" gun, but if you're shooting light loads, it will cause stove pipes. Only when shooting heavy loads, not factory loads, should you use an 18.5# spring.

If ejection is erratic, some at 2:00, some at 4:00, some close, some far off, that is a sign of weak extractor tension.

Vertical stringing can be caused by inconsistent grip pressure from shot to shot. Mild flinching on some shots. Or by inconsistent sight alignment, such as referencing the top of the sight blade for some shots, and the white dot for some others.

[bangerjim]

LWR........Limp Wrist Syndrome.

Funny, this.............my 1911 shoots and cycles perfectly ever time I take it to the range......FOR ME. Loan it to someone there and it jams like that every time!!!!!!! It IS truly in how you hold your mouth..........and wrists!!!!!! HA.....ha.

banger

[gray wolf]

If ejection is erratic, some at 2:00, some at 4:00, some close, some far off, that is a sign of weak extractor tensio

Can also be a clocking extractor, ( extractor rotates slightly in it's tunnel )
If cases jam into the front of the ejection port, and get two V shaped bad dents on each side of the case mouth----look for week extractor tension ---- this mostly happens on the last round, no support under the last round, and the extractor can't hold the round up, the case tilts down and jams the case mouth into the front of the ejection port.

Just a few more things.

[Char-Gar]

LWR........Limp Wrist Syndrome.

Funny, this.............my 1911 shoots and cycles perfectly ever time I take it to the range......FOR ME. Loan it to someone there and it jams like that every time!!!!!!! It IS truly in how you hold your mouth..........and wrists!!!!!! HA.....ha.

banger

That is very true, I have had folks complain about how their 1911 is malfunctioning on them and ask me why. I will shoot it, in front of them, and it is 100%. Lots of things get blamed for 1911 malfunction but the vast majority of the time, they just don't know how to hold them.

When the military taught the 1911 pistol, they were quite good at teaching proper hold.

I had had several score 1911s over the years, and unless messed with all of them delivered great reliability out of the box/as issued. There is a very big industry in making and selling after market parts that are supposed to improve reliability and lots of gurus making money promoting them. A box stock 1911 of good make, will be reliable out of the box. At least they have been for me.

In 50 years with the 1911 pistol, I have never tuned an extractor, changed ejectors or much of anything else. They do need spring changes from time to time to keep everything working properly.

[MtGun44]

What ammo? Light loads will cause this. Limp wristing should not be a problem with full power
ammo.

[Mk42gunner]

So if a fella practiced with ferrets, he would be okay?:groner:
Weasel, ferret, mink doesn't really matter. If I were to find any one of them alive in my bare hand, I do believe I could exceed the grip I had as teenager that hand milked a large Holstein cow. (I'd probably also scream like a little girl and invent some new Sailor language at the same time).

Robert

[Scharfschuetze]

As you are experiencing jams in just one unique situation, let me add my two cents worth as far as a solution to the problem.

I trained literally hundreds of soldiers to use the 1911A1 back in the day and limp wristing the pistol was the most common cause of malfunctions. You need to proved a firm resistance to RECOIL for the pistol to operate properly. That equals a stiff arm so that the slide slides past the frame and not with the frame. As noted above a hand shake grip is all that is needed. You don't need to squeeze grips off.

I've also shot some NRA 2700 matches over the years. Most of the top shooters had "Softball" 1911s set up to fire about as minimum a load as possible with the light 185 grain SWC for competition in order to reduce recoil. Those guys never suffered a "limp wrist" malfunction and as noted above, they had a stiff wrist and arm, yet their actual grip was not all that firm and it was a one handed hold as required by NRA rules.

Now here's the key to why those "Softball" guns worked and a possible solution for you. Those 1911s had a lighter than normal op spring in order to allow functioning at the minimum recoil impulse of lighter than normal loads.

While I wouldn't recommend a very light spring, less than 14 pounds or so with heavy loads, it just might be a solution for you in this rather rare and probably once a year use of your .45 ACP. As I recall, my old Colt Gold Cup came with a 14 pound op spring and it handled the light load just fine. I still have my "Hardball" 1911 and it is set up with the standard weight op spring of 16 pounds which gets changed out every couple of years depending on round count.

Check Wolff Gun Springs, Brownells or other firearms supply companies for various weight springs for the 45. As an aside, a too stiff hammer spring can also retard your slide velocity and cause your problem too. Lighten up your spring set and you'll be able to use what is probably not a very solid position from your tree stand without your 1911 jamming. Go back to standard springs for the rest of the year once the season is over.

Here's a link to Wolf's 45 page:

https://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/COLT/1911%20GOV'T%20PISTOL/cID1/mID1/dID1

And just a final comment: Probably obvious and already done, but make sure that you are using a good slippery lube on the slide rails, the barrel's recoil lugs and legs and on the hammer cam on the firing pin stop or the top of the hammer where it is cammed down by the firing pin stop in recoil. This will also help the slide to slide past the frame and not with it.

While a mechanical solution may not trump technique most of the time, it might be what you need in that tree stand.

[nekshot]

You guys are having fun! I do unashamedly admit I have developed a serious limp wristed hold on my trigger hand. A couple years ago I traded into a beat up Ruger BH 357 and my son and I went to shoot it and at the first shot off a sandbag the gun disappeared- it was no where to be seen. I was a couple feet away from a stack of hay bales and low and behold the gun was untop of them. That gun kicked worse then a heavy 44 mag which I remedied it, But I must relearn holding a handgun!

[Char-Gar]

You guys are having fun! I do unashamedly admit I have developed a serious limp wristed hold on my trigger hand. A couple years ago I traded into a beat up Ruger BH 357 and my son and I went to shoot it and at the first shot off a sandbag the gun disappeared- it was no where to be seen. I was a couple feet away from a stack of hay bales and low and behold the gun was untop of them. That gun kicked worse then a heavy 44 mag which I remedied it, But I must relearn holding a handgun!

Yes, your hand or hands are the only things connecting the handgun to planet earth so the grip is very important. Like others I favor the firm handshake and a straight wrist.

The trigger finger should be isolated, which means not come in contact with the handgun other than the pad of your first digit on the trigger surface. With breath control, sight picture and the proper trigger control, your are home free.

Good luck!

[HABCAN]

Silver Jack Hammer...........sir, I have posted (#11) what has been true for me and for several dozens of my students over sixty-odd years. I didn't say it would necessarily be 'true' for YOU. YMMV, as always.

[hp246]

Lock your wrist.

[Bazoo]

Personally, i've never seen a full size 1911 jam from limp wristing. I've seen other guns do it. I let my wife do the testing for any gun on that subject, she's weak wristed. She shoots my springfield milspec without a problem, just throws the cases further back.

[Mk42gunner]

Any recoil operated gun needs a solid base to push against for proper functioning. Two examples stand out in my mind:

1. My brand new Ensign was trying to shoot a Glock 19 off the fantail and he kept getting stovepipe jams. He turned to me and asked "GMG2 what is wrong?" I answered him "Sir, you're limp wristing it. Lock your wrist." It wasn't my fault the rest of the wardroom heard my answer.

2. On my second ship, one of the MWR guns we shot "trap" with was a Remington Model 11. Good gun, always cycled fine. For everybody except one young SN, he was about 5'6" and weighed maybe 105 soaking wet. Built like a match stick, and not a husky kitchen match either. Even leaning into it that gun wouldn't cycle right for him. He finally gave up on it and used the 870.

Robert

[Greg S]

If the stiff wrist doesn't help please post back. The key to a reliable 1911 is the extractor which is either not working or the slide is not coming far enough back because (ahem) its being robbed of energy. To fix this problem, head down to the local Sports Authority and get some rosin and athletic tape. Tape your wrist up good and squeeze the rosin bag alittle and give it another whirl.

If that don't fix it we've got so e other diagnostic tests to perform to identify the problem.

Make, model and caliber? Standard, ramped or bull barrel?

[Plate plinker]

It is you most likely. If your load is a bit weak for your spring and the gun is dirty that could hold you up too. However I would think you load is sufficient.

[dubber123]

While I agree it is most likely a grip issue, I have seen a wide variance in ejectors on 1911's. From very long extended ones, to straight up square ones, to angled back ones. If the OP doesn't have one of the extended ones, installing one might help clear the case a little sooner when the slide doesn't make it fully rearward due to a grip issue or a light load.

I shortened the one on my Springfield quite a bit to get less energetic ejection, so I know it has a noticeable effect on ejection pattern.

[Char-Gar]

While I agree it is most likely a grip issue, I have seen a wide variance in ejectors on 1911's. From very long extended ones, to straight up square ones, to angled back ones. If the OP doesn't have one of the extended ones, installing one might help clear the case a little sooner when the slide doesn't make it fully rearward due to a grip issue or a light load.

I shortened the one on my Springfield quite a bit to get less energetic ejection, so I know it has a noticeable effect on ejection pattern.

I have had one and only one experience with extended ejectors. I bought a Norinco 1911A1 and like it very much, so when I ran across another, I snapped it up. I found the 2nd. one to give jamming problems, so I took it down to give it the once over. I quickly noticed that a previous owner had installed and extended ejector. I shortened it to the length of the orignal factory ejector and ejection and function was 100%. They are still running today at 100%. These "Norks" are very fine basic pistols. I paid $280.00 for one and $325.00 for the second.

I am utterly convinced that John Browning got it right the first time. When we start trying to improve on the design, more often than not we screw things up.

This is just my experience and opinion and others are free to have theirs as well.

[dubber123]

The angled back ejector was on an Auto Ordinance I was working on, and that one had ejection issues. I replaced it with a more squared up one, and it ran perfectly there after. My Springfield came with a long one, and I reduced it a bit at a time until it ejected where I wanted. It too ended up pretty square. I have seen the extended ones break off and leave a chunk of metal floating around in your pistol, yet another reason I am not a big fan of them.

They can be a useful tuning aid if you get a pistol with a vey angled back ejector, and it's a pretty inexpensive part to replace.

[Love Life]

I have had one and only one experience with extended ejectors. I bought a Norinco 1911A1 and like it very much, so when I ran across another, I snapped it up. I found the 2nd. one to give jamming problems, so I took it down to give it the once over. I quickly noticed that a previous owner had installed and extended ejector. I shortened it to the length of the orignal factory ejector and ejection and function was 100%. They are still running today at 100%. These "Norks" are very fine basic pistols. I paid $280.00 for one and $325.00 for the second.

I am utterly convinced that John Browning got it right the first time. When we start trying to improve on the design, more often than not we screw things up.

This is just my experience and opinion and others are free to have theirs as well.

I really like the Norincos. I bought a few of them as project guns, and they have taught me a ton. Right now I'm turning one into a retro hardball ball gun.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Some of the guys I shoot with got the Norincos, they really like them.

[gray wolf]

My old Springfield has an extended ejector
and an unbelievable round count with no problems at all.

Go figure Eh.

[freebullet]

I had a new colt defender. Limp wrist shooting would most certainly cause several problems.

1. It would jam with the case mouth pointing up at 1-2 o clock sticking out the slide.
I tuned the extractor and this prolem was eliminated.

2. It would throw cases at your eyeball or forehead.
I tuned the ejector and it eliminated the issue.

Google "1911 extractor tuning" & "1911 ejector tuning" very good info with diagrams exist.

Even when limp wristing the gun it wouldn't do those annoying & potentially dangerous conditions after tuning. Colt said send it back and wait 2-3 months. After thoroughly researching the issues I felt confident I could fix it, I bet you could too.

[Char-Gar]

I had a new colt defender. Limp wrist shooting would most certainly cause several problems.

1. It would jam with the case mouth pointing up at 1-2 o clock sticking out the slide.
I tuned the extractor and this prolem was eliminated.

2. It would throw cases at your eyeball or forehead.
I tuned the ejector and it eliminated the issue.

Google "1911 extractor tuning" & "1911 ejector tuning" very good info with diagrams exist.

Even when limp wristing the gun it wouldn't do those annoying & potentially dangerous conditions after tuning. Colt said send it back and wait 2-3 months. After thoroughly researching the issues I felt confident I could fix it, I bet you could too.

It makes no sense to me to modify a pistol's design to compensate for poor shooting technique. No sense at all! There is no reason to fix something that is not broken.

A man that knows the drill of a 1911, should be able to pick up a box stock 1911 of decent make and with good ammo have it run 100% for him every time. You don't "tune" the pistol to compensate for bad gun handling. Tune the shooter instead and he is good to go with any decent 1911 pistol.

[Char-Gar]

I really like the Norincos. I bought a few of them as project guns, and they have taught me a ton. Right now I'm turning one into a retro hardball ball gun.

What is a retro hardball gun? To my way of thinking a Norinco IS a retro hardball gun right out of the box.

[Love Life]

Something along these lines:

153564

Adjustable rear, Shark fin front, but I plan to stipple instead of checker the front strap. Plus I'll hard fit a barrel and a NM bushing.

[gray wolf]

I had a new colt defender. Limp wrist shooting would most certainly cause several problems.

1. It would jam with the case mouth pointing up at 1-2 o clock sticking out the slide.
I tuned the extractor and this prolem was eliminated.

2. It would throw cases at your eyeball or forehead.
I tuned the ejector and it eliminated the issue.

Google "1911 extractor tuning" & "1911 ejector tuning" very good info with diagrams exist.

Even when limp wristing the gun it wouldn't do those annoying & potentially dangerous conditions after tuning. Colt said send it back and wait 2-3 months. After thoroughly researching the issues I felt confident I could fix it, I bet you could too.



It makes no sense to me to modify a pistol's design to compensate for poor shooting technique. No sense at all! There is no reason to fix something that is not broken.

A man that knows the drill of a 1911, should be able to pick up a box stock 1911 of decent make and with good ammo have it run 100% for him every time. You don't "tune" the pistol to compensate for bad gun handling. Tune the shooter instead and he is good to go with any decent 1911 pistol.


I wouldn't be so quick to put all problems under the bad handling Umbrella.

Many very expensive, middle of the road and cheap 1911 are, Um, how should I say it?
Not so so ready to get up and go , Plainly put, not out of the box ready.

Not today, not with the way things are turned out, the Q C is just not there,
Worst of all, pride and attitude get left out of many a boxed up firearms.

Some of the problems stated above about tuning his extractor ( and that is not modifying it ) were indicated by problems clearly related to a week extractor.
I give him credit for researching the problem and fixing it.

1911,s for the most part are not forever plug and play, not today with the huge manufacturing differences and techniques.

I have known many, many 1911 shooters in my 73 good, and not so good years on this Planet, Me being one of them.
Very few do not have a little tool box set aside for there 1911-- along with basic and advanced knowledge of how to properly maintain them. ( maintaining is not modifying )

These are not the WW2 rattle trap 1911,s and they are not the tunnel Rat 1911,s of the 60's -- I do not confuse the two.

Ya no, some people buy a bran new car, never have a problem, someone else buys the same brand Car and has nothing but problems.
The guy without the problems tells the guy with the problems that he doesn't now how to drive.

Sometimes the guy with the problems can't fix the problems--- So he takes a driving lesson.

Problems UN-seen often go UN-fixed, and the goods go in the trash, screw it ! buy a new one.

[lefty o]

you can definately have shooter induced stoppages, but there's plenty of 1911's out there that dont run correctly out of the box. with a properly tuned extractor and ejector, combined with the correct recoil spring for your load, a 1911 will drop spent brass into a nice neat small pile. those pistols that scatter brass everywhere are telling you something isnt right.

[Char-Gar]

Something along these lines:

153564

Adjustable rear, Shark fin front, but I plan to stipple instead of checker the front strap. Plus I'll hard fit a barrel and a NM bushing.

I have a good Colt NM Barrel and bushing that are surplus to my needs, but the bushing is the collet type, which I don't mind at all.

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=gray wolf;3439503]
I have known many, many 1911 shooters in my 73 good, and not so good years on this Planet, Me being one of them. Very few do not have a little tool box set aside for there 1911-- along with basic and advanced knowledge of how to properly maintain them. ( maintaining is not modifying )/QUOTE]

I am also 73 having taken up the 1911 in 1960 with many years of Bulleye match shooting behind me. I have owned, built and maintained several score of 1911s over the years, so I am familiar with the pistol.

In the current crop of 1911s I have had experience with Norinco, Remington, Ruger and Rock Islands versions and all have been reliable out of the box. They needed no attention to be 100%.

If a fellow want to jack with is pistol, I have no problem with anybody doing so, but I take a dim view of;

1. Doing it to correct bad shooting techniques.
2. Doing so, just because some aftermarket parts maker want to sell you some magic "must have" gizmo.
3. Doing so because some guru says you need to. Most gurus are making bucks at being a guru and gurus do what gurus do and that is know more than the groundlings.

Bottom line is a very large part of the current modifications are unnecessary and can even induce problems. If a fellow knows how to shoot a 1911 and shoots his correctly with good ammo for a 1,000 rounds and it still does not function properly, then it is time to try and hunt down the problem and fix it. However many people today modify their pistols, for no good reason.

That is what my 55 years with the 1911 pistol has taught me. I think I will stick by it, but others are free to think otherwise.

[freebullet]

It makes no sense to me to modify a pistol's design to compensate for poor shooting technique. No sense at all! There is no reason to fix something that is not broken.

A man that knows the drill of a 1911, should be able to pick up a box stock 1911 of decent make and with good ammo have it run 100% for him every time. You don't "tune" the pistol to compensate for bad gun handling. Tune the shooter instead and he is good to go with any decent 1911 pistol.

Obviously the goal is to not limp wrist, jerk the trig, or any other things that might induce malfunctions and inaccurate shooting.
My point was with a slick tuned 1911 there will be no issues even if you accidentally limp wrist. With a 3" 1911 in particular everything must be perfect for reliable function and, with a barrel that short limp wristing is bound to happen. The gun needs to run no matter what I do.
I wasn't even advocating adding any aftermarket parts, simply making the most of what he already has. Please elaborate how that's modifying the design after you get your panties unwaded.

[freebullet]

Well, another member here I know personally received a new rock island. He had to send it back for repair after his first range trip. So 100% out the box don't apply to every person. Even after they did the repair we had to throat it to allow feed & chamber of cast. Also throated the defender and the ammo pickiness blues went away. Your trying to make it sound like they all come perfect and anyone who has an issue is stupid. My defender issues were not imagined. I thoroughly researched them and resolved the issues. Is that not what smart people do?

[gray wolf]

and anyone who has an issue is stupid.

I don't think anyone is trying to make anyone look stupid,not seeing the whole picture perhaps.
I do agree about many new guns having to go back, some for silly reasons caused by people just not knowing anything about a firearm,
and many that just ain't right.

It's not like buying a Toaster,-- but yes in this mass produced World things seem to fall through the cracks.

They come Off the C N C machine and people that just put the parts together. NO T L C

[Char-Gar]

Obviously the goal is to not limp wrist, jerk the trig, or any other things that might induce malfunctions and inaccurate shooting.
My point was with a slick tuned 1911 there will be no issues even if you accidentally limp wrist. With a 3" 1911 in particular everything must be perfect for reliable function and, with a barrel that short limp wristing is bound to happen. The gun needs to run no matter what I do.
I wasn't even advocating adding any aftermarket parts, simply making the most of what he already has. Please elaborate how that's modifying the design after you get your panties unwaded.

There is no need for sarcasm. I have one opinion and you gave another. Just leave it at that.

[gray wolf]

I think the knowladge base of this thread has gone over the cliff.