Got a deer with my JES rebored Winny 94 in 35/30-30

[outdoorfan]

This morning I got a 150 poundish 7 pter chasing a doe. He was moving from left to right, and I tried to sneak one into his boiler room before he got behind some brush. Well, I feel fortunate he only went 30-40 yards after the shot. Upon inspection of his lungs, the NOE 360230-RF clipped maybe 2 inches of the bottom of one lung, and I can't remember if it even hit the other one. His chest cavity was filled with more blood than I expected, too. The entrance hole was literally 3-4 inches up from the bottom of his chest, and the exit hole was just about even with the bottom of his chest on the other side.

Sorry, no relevant pics.

I suspect that the wide meplat and 2000 fps had something to do with that bullet doing maximum damage with a very marginal hit even though there was minimum resistance to mushroom the bullet. I'm very fortunate I didn't have a long tracking job.

[35 shooter]

Congrats on the buck!! What kind of accuracy are you getting with that rifle?
I'm considering whether to do that very conversion or get a 35 rem.
That same boolit you used on your deer is the one i was considering for either one.

Kind of leaning toward the 35 30/30 for the longer neck it has and of course the ease of finding plenty of brass to convert.

Again, congrats on the deer!

[pietro]

.
Ya gotta luv it - when a plan comes together ! :2_high5:

[nagantguy]

Great, I've been looking into just such a project now I may bump it to the head of the line. Congrats on your buck. The rut is wide open here in MI as well. Seen more bucks and more rut activity than I've seen in years.

[nekshot]

Congrats! I would love to hear more info such as loads and speeds from the 35-30-30 fellows. I think it is a exellant way to go but not much info and where do you get the dies to reload?

[Hickok]

Great!

Just a question to you and others who have taken deer with .35 caliber and larger caliber rifles, have you ever seen where these big fat boolits at times will push hair clean through a wound channel and inside of the animal? Happens to me frequently.

[outdoorfan]

Great!

Just a question to you and others who have taken deer with .35 caliber and larger caliber rifles, have you ever seen where these big fat boolits at times will push hair clean through a wound channel and inside of the animal? Happens to me frequently.

Good question. Unfortunately, I'm usually in too much of a hurry when gutting to pay attention to things like that. I will keep it in mind for the future, though.


Congrats! I would love to hear more info such as loads and speeds from the 35-30-30 fellows. I think it is a exellant way to go but not much info and where do you get the dies to reload?

The 35/30-30 is basically the ballistic twin of the 35 Remington. Perhaps the 35 Remington has just a bit more on the top end for those who want to push their rifles to the absolute max, but I'm pushing a 231 grain bullet (NOE 360-230) at 2000 fps, and their is a little room to spare. In load work-up I went up to 2050 or so, but accuracy really dropped off with the alloy I'm choosing to use (a/c ww's + 2% tin). Side note: I didn't find 20 bhn bullets (50/50 ww/soft; waterdropped) to be any more accurate.

I tried several different powders. IMR 3031 was not one of them, although I suspect it would have been a winner. Hodgdon Benchmark at 35 grains was the ticket for me. I tried Leverevolution, Varget, H4895, among others. When charge weights with those slower powders start approaching 38+ grains, recoil becomes abnoxious. When trying the NOE clone of the RCBS 35-200, I pushed Leverevolution to 42 grains. Recoil was crazy, and accuracy sucked. Velocity was around 2100. I got 2,140 fps with 36 grains of Benchmark. Accuracy wasn't real good. I tried Varget to 40 grains. Velocity was 2,130. Accuracy was not so good. 39 grains of H4895 got 2,140. Accuracy was subpar.

If I dropped down to the 2000 fps level, accuracy was quite good, with either the NOE RCBS 35-200 or the NOE 360-230. I could push the 35-200 to about 2,080 with decent accuracy, and I settled on around 2,030 fps with the 35-200. I ended up going with the 360230 because I had to seat the 35-200 too far out, exposing the lube groove. Not my preference.

I did chronograph testing at 265 yards on both NOE bullets, and the 35-200 is ballistically superior (of course). But the difference was only around 100 fps at that distance. And the 360-230 started a little slower too.

I also briefly tested a 250 grain LFN that I had on hand. I spun it up to 2,050 with 35 grains of Benchmark, but that was no good. 34 grains netted 2,000 fps, and accuracy was better. 39 grains of Leverevolution only made it to 1920 fps. Recoil was vicious.

One downside to this project is I have to trim brass after every firing. It may grow 2-5 thousandths or so. Most of my testing was using RP brass. I have about a dozen firings on that batch of brass with the loads listed above, and not one piece out of that batch of 80 or so has failed in any way. Of course, I annealed the necks before necking them up (from 30-30), but I haven't annealed any since. Dies can be had at CH4D for about $80.

Barrel length is 20". Most of my load work-up was with a Lyman 66 peep on the receiver & a Skinner sight on the front. I should mention this also. The 35-200 and 360-230 bullets that I have are plain-based. I attach aluminum checks on the base derived from Pat Marlin's pb checkmaker. All my gas-checked loads are derived this way. I don't use conventional gas-checked bullets any more.



Great, I've been looking into just such a project now I may bump it to the head of the line. Congrats on your buck. The rut is wide open here in MI as well. Seen more bucks and more rut activity than I've seen in years.

Yeah, the buck I nailed was on the heels of a doe. Making all kinds of noise as they came across the swamp to me. Fun to watch and experience!


Congrats on the buck!! What kind of accuracy are you getting with that rifle?
I'm considering whether to do that very conversion or get a 35 rem.
That same boolit you used on your deer is the one i was considering for either one.

Kind of leaning toward the 35 30/30 for the longer neck it has and of course the ease of finding plenty of brass to convert.

Again, congrats on the deer!

I'm getting around 2 MOA out to maybe 200 yards with the Lyman 66 and ghost ring (I don't use the aperture inserts). That is for 3-5 shots. There will sometimes be fliers that blow the group apart. Oh well. At 265 yards, I did quite a few 5-6" 3-5 shot groups, although sometimes would be 7-8 inches. And then there was the occasional flier, of course. I've tested the 360-230 out to 350 yards. Accuracy really dropped off, but that may have also been due to me not being able to see the target for squat. But, the bullets were still flying straight with no apparent wobble or yaw.

My rifle has a 1-16 twist. What inspired me to do this was the 35 Remington. But, I didn't want to spend the big bucks just to find a decent used one; and then there is the brass availability also. This is an extremely fun and potent cartridge on a great platform in the Win 94, and I am extremely pleased with my choice to go this route. A 230 grain bullet at 2000 fps is nothing to be taken lightly inside of 200 yards, that's for sure.

Any other questions, feel free to ask. Part of my reason for posting this is to spread knowledge on this fine old wildcat and to make people aware of it.

[Artful]

Congratulations - nice to hear a report of a successful hunt.

[Beerd]

Very good!

"A 230 grain bullet at 2000 fps is nothing to be taken lightly inside of 200 yards, that's for sure."
Yup.
..

[nekshot]

Thanks for taking the time with that report. In 10 years or so that is the first thourogh report I heard of this conversion and it really makes it tempting. I have a couple 94's I could pick from to do it and that would settle the 35 caliber issue with me in a lever. I have 35 remmies in everything but a lever and this would fill the love for a 35 lever!

[outdoorfan]

Thanks for taking the time with that report. In 10 years or so that is the first thourogh report I heard of this conversion and it really makes it tempting. I have a couple 94's I could pick from to do it and that would settle the 35 caliber issue with me in a lever. I have 35 remmies in everything but a lever and this would fill the love for a 35 lever!

You're welcome. I agree that there just aren't hardly any write-ups on this. I also searched high and low before having JES do this, and now that I have a little experience with it under my belt, I'd like to tell others about it.

I doubt you'll be disappointed in going through with converting one of your 94's. I encourage it! JES will do a 3-groove for $225 (including return shipping), and he usually turns this around in a week or two.

[35 shooter]

You started this thread right on time for me for sure. I've spent a fair amount of time in the archives lately researching this very thing...35 30/30 or 35 rem.

The two main advantages i see to the 35 30/30 are the longer neck and ease of finding brass. I guess a third would be it's a pretty cool wildcat...not everyone has one lol!

I take it the 360230 will keep the check in the neck on the 35 30/30?
Would you happen to know if it will stay in the neck on the 35 rem?

Actually i'd be pleased with either one i'm sure.

[outdoorfan]

The 360230 will easily fit in the neck of the converted 30-30 brass. I can't comment on the 35 Remington brass, but I have my doubts that it will. I seem to remember reading that the RCBS 35-200 is a "perfect" fit in that regard, and it's a lighter bullet.

Do you have a donor lever action that you can use for this conversion?

[outdoorfan]

I forgot to add one more downside to this process of converting the 30-30 brass. When necking up the brass, the resizing does not do so uniformally in that one side will often be shorter than the other. So, I have been trimming the brass a bit shorter than factory (30-30) just to keep things uniform. Necking up shortens the case a bit, and then I trim it to 1.85" to make sure that they all end up uniformally the same.

[35 shooter]

The 360230 will easily fit in the neck of the converted 30-30 brass. I can't comment on the 35 Remington brass, but I have my doubts that it will. I seem to remember reading that the RCBS 35-200 is a "perfect" fit in that regard, and it's a lighter bullet.

Do you have a donor lever action that you can use for this conversion?
No donor yet. I did see a few used levers the other day at a local pawn shop though.
I guess since i want to play with heavier than 200 gr. boolits and 30/30 brass is easy to find, this is the way i'll probably go.

Used levers are pretty common here so the only hold up will be finding the right price lol....Thanks again for the info!!

[outdoorfan]

My pleasure! And I also think the 35/30-30 is a good fit for you if you want heavier bullets than 200 grains. The 35/30 can probably even handle 260-280 grains, and JES can put a 14 twist on it if you'd like...

[35 shooter]

In some of my research on this i came across at least one report of someone using a 358009. There was no mention of whether the check was still in the neck, but i think the load was kicking 1800 fps?

I'm shooting the 360230 and 358009 @ 2200 fps. in my 35 whelen for best accuracy with each, so 2000 fps with the 360230 in the lever won't be much difference at all.

Okay, just looked back over my notes on the research and the 358009 @ 1800 fps. was in a "strong action". They didn't say, but i take that to be a single shot or maybe some kind of bolt conversion.

Anyway, the 230 gr. would be plenty for me in a lever gun anywhere near 2000 fps.

[Hickok]

I forgot to add one more downside to this process of converting the 30-30 brass. When necking up the brass, the resizing does not do so uniformally in that one side will often be shorter than the other. So, I have been trimming the brass a bit shorter than factory (30-30) just to keep things uniform. Necking up shortens the case a bit, and then I trim it to 1.85" to make sure that they all end up uniformally the same. After you neck the cases up to .35 cal, did you ever try fireforming the cases with a charge of fast burning powder, some cornmeal and a wax wad pressed into the end of the case mouth, (no boolit) ?

I do this when I convert .444 Marlin brass to 8mm JDJ brass for my Contender. I am first necking down, and then blowing the neck area out to get a good chamber fit. Don't know if it will work on your "necking up" process, but it may fireform the case to fit the chamber and may help straighten up the short neck some. Just a thought, maybe others will know if this is do-a-ble.

[outdoorfan]

In some of my research on this i came across at least one report of someone using a 358009. There was no mention of whether the check was still in the neck, but i think the load was kicking 1800 fps?

I'm shooting the 360230 and 358009 @ 2200 fps. in my 35 whelen for best accuracy with each, so 2000 fps with the 360230 in the lever won't be much difference at all.

Okay, just looked back over my notes on the research and the 358009 @ 1800 fps. was in a "strong action". They didn't say, but i take that to be a single shot or maybe some kind of bolt conversion.

Anyway, the 230 gr. would be plenty for me in a lever gun anywhere near 2000 fps.


Lost the post that I started. So annoying!

Anyway, the 30-30 action should run in the mid 30,000 psi range with a 100% safety factor in any of the modern (last 50 years or more) actions. That is my understand. So, the 35/30-30 should not need to be loaded down to be safe. The 358009 should easily run at 1800+ fps with 100% reliability factor in a Marlin or Win 94 action. I haven't actually done this, but I am pretty sure it will not be a problem. So, caution should still be applied here, and double checking of this. I don't think the 358009 is necessary unless there are huge animals around that you need protection from. The 200-250 grain class bullets will do all almost anybody will need them to do, imo.

One more thing: If the 30-30 action is going to be bored out and converted to something bigger, like a 375 Winchester (if that is even possible, I don't know), then I would imagine that maximum safe pressures will need to be reduced considerably to accommodate the thinner walls in the action after the conversion.

[outdoorfan]

After you neck the cases up to .35 cal, did you ever try fireforming the cases with a charge of fast burning powder, some cornmeal and a wax wad pressed into the end of the case mouth, (no boolit) ?

I do this when I convert .444 Marlin brass to 8mm JDJ brass for my Contender. I am first necking down, and then blowing the neck area out to get a good chamber fit. Don't know if it will work on your "necking up" process, but it may fireform the case to fit the chamber and may help straighten up the short neck some. Just a thought, maybe others will know if this is do-a-ble.

Good point. I thought about that, but I deemed it to be way more work than simply running through the sizer die that I have from CH4D. I don't mind trimming them back. After 12 or so firings of full strong loads and not one case failure, I've proven to myself that there doesn't seem to be any obvious flaw in my methodology. I might have considered the fire-formed method more seriously if I could shoot them off my back porch without bothering the neighbors here.

[missionary5155]

Greetings Outdoorfan and Congratulations !
That was a good write up and I thank you ! I am another one looking at this cartridge. Have an old ugly 94 some one black spray painted trying to cover the pitts and rust. Have enough caliber 38 rifles so that 35 looks appealing.
Thank you for all the follow up info about brass and cartridge you have added.
Mike in Peru

[outdoorfan]

Mike, thanks for posting. If I recall from previous posts of yours, I think I remember you saying that you have some early model 94's. If that's the case, do you have an understanding of the strength of the steel used in those early ones, even pre 1900?

[blixen]

Congrats on the buck! I also have been thinking about a 35/30-30 rebore for my Marlin mod. 30. Where'd you get your dies? From what I've seen they're pricey.

[DougGuy]

That same exact boolit strike with a .357 magnum and you might have never retrieved that deer. Good job!

[outdoorfan]

Congrats on the buck! I also have been thinking about a 35/30-30 rebore for my Marlin mod. 30. Where'd you get your dies? From what I've seen they're pricey.

CH4D. Around $80.


That same exact boolit strike with a .357 magnum and you might have never retrieved that deer. Good job!

Yeah, that could be very true. There was very little tissue (especially vital tissue) disrupted. However, my go to load in the .357 has the same meplat and only 200 fps less velocity. The alloy is also softer, so any possible expansion would probably also initiate a little sooner with the 357.

Anyway, I sure feel fortunate.

[outdoorfan]

Btw, although I really like the convenience of resizing in a custom sizing die from CH4D, there are other ways to resize these cases with dies people may already have on hand.

[Maximumbob54]

CH4D. Around $80.



Yeah, that could be very true. There was very little tissue (especially vital tissue) disrupted. However, my go to load in the .357 has the same meplat and only 200 fps less velocity. The alloy is also softer, so any possible expansion would probably also initiate a little sooner with the 357.

Anyway, I sure feel fortunate.

Care to share that load data for the .357???

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I have been using the JES rebore to 35-30-30 in a Winchester 94 for a number of years. You can take fired 30-30 cases and neck expand with a 38 special powder through die or equivalent M-die, re-prime, and start working up a load with your favorite boolit. THEN , trim to length, and get serious about the load. Mine like the 208 grain RCBS boolit. That establishes a fire formed minor shoulder that you don't need to worry much about anyhow, as HS is rim controlled in the 35-30-30. Get real dies later at your convenience.

I also have a JES 356 W on a Marlin action and it uses the same RCBS boolit. I have taken several deer with it and like it better than the Winchester as it is easily scoped. It also easily meets near 356W factory load velocities without issues. This is on a near new pre safety Marlin that is tight and built right and with the JES work and 3 grooves. BTW sometime back GRAFF was giving a price break on Redding custom dies if you bought then through them.

BvT

[outdoorfan]

I have been using the JES rebore to 35-30-30 in a Winchester 94 for a number of years. You can take fired 30-30 cases and neck expand with a 38 special powder through die or equivalent M-die, re-prime, and start working up a load with your favorite boolit. THEN , trim to length, and get serious about the load. Mine like the 208 grain RCBS boolit. That establishes a fire formed minor shoulder that you don't need to worry much about anyhow, as HS is rim controlled in the 35-30-30. Get real dies later at your convenience.

I also have a JES 356 W on a Marlin action and it uses the same RCBS boolit. I have taken several deer with it and like it better than the Winchester as it is easily scoped. It also easily meets near 356W factory load velocities without issues. This is on a near new pre safety Marlin that is tight and built right and with the JES work and 3 grooves. BTW sometime back GRAFF was giving a price break on Redding custom dies if you bought then through them.

BvT

Thanks for bringing your experience into play here. I agree that the .356 has got to be about perfect for a heavier big game rifle.


Care to share that load data for the .357???

C358-180-RF group buy, 16 grains Lilgun. It's a max load.

[TXGunNut]

Good report on a project nicely done! I think the 35-30 may make more sense than a 35 Rem these days, just depends on what you have lying around.

[outdoorfan]

Very true!

[BAGTIC]

Why fire form? 30-30 brass headspaces on the rim. One is merely enlarging neck. Load your regular charge in the case, seat bullet and shoot. If a load is safe in a preformed case it will be safe in an unformed case. If you have a chronograph you will probably find the unformed cases will give more uniform velocities than fire formed cases.

[gc45]

My 35 is the 356 Winchester, great gun and caliber that hits very hard.

GC45

[35Whelen]

Gotta love the 35's. A buddy gave me two boxes of Remington 30-30 cartridges for helping him get his hands on a Ruger Hawkeye in 358 Win. I was down in the loading room puttering about. Took an empty 30-30 case....lubed the inside of the case neck using #8 shot and powdered graphite, ran my 35 cal neck sizing die over it carefully and opened it up cleanly in one pass.....it was like pushing through butter. ( never have I experienced easier neck expansion, than by using the shot and graphite) At any rate. After opening it up, I ran it into my M die for 358, placed a 360-240A boolit into the neck and carefully seated it to the crimp groove. Made it up as a dummy round without depriming. Looking at it I thought damn !!!! You know what that would make a very cool short range timber or truck gun in a single shot ( sorry not a lever gun guy). I then googled 35-30/30 and found out it is likely one of the oldest wildcats out there. Very neat looking round....and now the wheels in the head are spinning round and round. Any ideas of a single shot for that caliber? Contender, Falling block, break open? I'm all ears....Looking for a round that will propel the 240 grain FP to around 1800 fps...quiet, no kick and stomps deer decisively ?

[35remington]

Let me caution you that brass that grows in length as much as you state after every shot is a clear sign the rifle is being overloaded. Think about why the brass is growing that much in terms of action stretch/bolt yield and it will become clear why that is so.

[outdoorfan]

Let me caution you that brass that grows in length as much as you state after every shot is a clear sign the rifle is being overloaded. Think about why the brass is growing that much in terms of action stretch/bolt yield and it will become clear why that is so.

I hear ya, but my opinion is that the load is very safe. Perhaps there is another reason why this is happening?

[35remington]

Not given the other clues so far. Back the loads down. If case stretch per shot is reduced you have confirmed your culprit. It is easy to pinpoint the cause.

That much stretch per shot is a clear sign of excessively flexing lockup. The gun is sending you warning signs via this bolt yield. Some of your numbers indicate ridiculous stretch per shot. Since the cases likely were not shot with the same load repeatedly you likely do not have a clear picture of what is going on.

Notable case stretch per shot should always set off the warning sensors in your brain when shooting leverguns. The velocity level of some of your posted loads seems to confirm the "too much pressure" hypothesis. Some of your loads are faster than they should be and your case stretch seems to be verifying it.

[outdoorfan]

Thanks for commenting. I read your articles (and commentary on the other forum) on the 35 Remington. They (articles) are superb, and also what got me interested in this project. Thanks! I would have gone with the 35 Rem if the brass (and rifle platform) was more available at a reasonable price, or at least the prices that were common when I started this.

Anyway, the 35/30-30 and 35 Remington have almost identical case capacity. And your own testing (and others) on the 35 Remington shows that a 220 grain jacketed bullet can be safely launched at notable speeds behind hefty charges of Leverevolution, among other slower burning powders. So, I extrapolated that I could safely launch a 230 grain lead bullet at less velocity and less powder charge than what you (and others) do. Did I miss something there?

Now, I have noticed some case stretch that is best remedied by trimming after each firing. It is true that I haven't noticed or documented this down to an exact science as to exactly how much case stretch is going on.

You bring up a good point about the action of the rifle yielding slightly which you say is causing the stretch. I'm wondering if the long neck of the 30-30 case also plays into that making it seem worse than it really is. I don't know. The 35 Rem has such a short neck in comparison.

My opinion is that the load is safe from a pressure stand point, unless I've missed something. Or maybe my rifle's action isn't as strong as it should be. Once again, I don't know. I don't see my load as any worse from a pressure standpoint as your load or other people's loads that are similar. So, I ask again, am I missing something? I don't want to be unsafe.

Btw, your idea of dropping down the charge a bit and repeatedly testing case stretch is a good one, and I might do that eventually.

[35remington]

Some of your powder selections, combined with bullet choice, are pushing the limit given indications that are occurring.

The case stretch is strongly suggesting some of the loads are getting to be excessive. Not blowing up the gun is not the only thing to look for in assessing load suitability. Case stretch is a pressure clue from a pressure measuring device....your gun.

The bottom line is what is occurring with your gun, not with another gun using a different cartridge and different powder and a different bullet. With the loads generating notable stretch, back off substantially and see if it slows greatly. If it does the loading was the culprit.

A prudent use for a case is often said to be to demote it from full power use after its third trimming. Since ten thou separates the "trim to" length from the max length, this means some of your loads are generating about six full power reloads before retirement. This is very subpar in terms of action and case stress. Cases ain't cheap either, even former 30-30's.

Do not keep using repeatedly trimmed cases. The brass is coming from somewhere, and that spot is the case wall above the solid head.

[bruce drake]

You've convinced me to do a test run for my 32 Winchester Special chambered Win94 with the 8MM Maximum mold I have that drops out at 240gr. My Win94 has the 1-16" twist as well.

And congrats on the deer! Could you have least waited until he caught the doe so he could have died with a smile on his face?

[izzyjoe]

Congrats on the buck! The 35-30 has also interested me for some time now, I actually bought a Marlin 336 to send off to be rebored, but the barrel is bad, it has a ringed chamber. So now I have to find a barrel on top off the rebore, that's why I've drug my heals on this project. But thank you for the input.

[outdoorfan]

Some of your powder selections, combined with bullet choice, are pushing the limit given indications that are occurring.

The case stretch is strongly suggesting some of the loads are getting to be excessive. Not blowing up the gun is not the only thing to look for in assessing load suitability. Case stretch is a pressure clue from a pressure measuring device....your gun.

The bottom line is what is occurring with your gun, not with another gun using a different cartridge and different powder and a different bullet. With the loads generating notable stretch, back off substantially and see if it slows greatly. If it does the loading was the culprit.

A prudent use for a case is often said to be to demote it from full power use after its third trimming. Since ten thou separates the "trim to" length from the max length, this means some of your loads are generating about six full power reloads before retirement. This is very subpar in terms of action and case stress. Cases ain't cheap either, even former 30-30's.

Do not keep using repeatedly trimmed cases. The brass is coming from somewhere, and that spot is the case wall above the solid head.

I was out of town for a couple of weeks, and then I forgot about this thread. So, just getting back to it now.

Again, thanks for your insights.

As to case stretch, I did use use some maybe 70-80 pcs of brass (remington) that I kept reusing over and over (about a dozen times) in my original load workup that included some crazy powder charges. Not one of those pcs failed. And I don't know if this matters, but I choose to trim to a certain length, which is not a maximum OAL as defined within the cartridge specs. I trim a little shorter.

When I get time or feel like it, I will do more testing with case stretch and charge weight.

Anyway, I know that you know your stuff. Thanks!

[outdoorfan]

You've convinced me to do a test run for my 32 Winchester Special chambered Win94 with the 8MM Maximum mold I have that drops out at 240gr. My Win94 has the 1-16" twist as well.

And congrats on the deer! Could you have least waited until he caught the doe so he could have died with a smile on his face?

So funny! Ha! Ha! I was just happy to see a buck. Lol!

[outdoorfan]

Congrats on the buck! The 35-30 has also interested me for some time now, I actually bought a Marlin 336 to send off to be rebored, but the barrel is bad, it has a ringed chamber. So now I have to find a barrel on top off the rebore, that's why I've drug my heals on this project. But thank you for the input.

I wish I had another hunting story to share using this rifle/cartridge, but I opted for the Rossi 92 in 357 maggie, instead, which I actually shoot better then the 94. Go figure! The Rossi has a better trigger.