WW and pure 50/50

[30Carbine]

So I am really flabbergasted at this point. I got a bunch of old wheel weights from my neighbor in the spring 20 5 gallon buckets full. he is in his 70's so there old, I was having the roof re done on the house this fall, still making ingots of the ww's, I asked the roofers about lead sheeting yep got an entire car trailer full of the stuff the next day. ok fine. now the problem I take the ww ingots and mix them with the sheeting lead 50/50 no problem right? not so much, On the lee hardness tester the ingots show about 10.4 bhn ingots air cooled ok. now cast some boolits air cooled on a towel show 8.0 bhn 2 days out side in the shop. so I made some more boolits same mold and lead water dropped same night cleaning out bucket tested 10.4 ok. nowwww fast forward a week tonight the same water dropped boolits are testing at 22.7 bhn? well what the, is going on I have water dropped the straight wheel weights and they only go up about 2 points and now this? any ideas? :holysheep

[KYCaster]

Looks like your "pure" lead sheeting isn't so pure after all.

Probably has more Sb in it than your WW.

Jerry

[Yodogsandman]

You must have made some mistake on the water dropped wheel weight bullet test. Older COWW's should run a little harder than newer ones.

When I heat treat for maximum hardness with COWW +2% Sn, my results are 30-31 BHN. Mixed 50/50 with pure lead, hardness runs 23-24 BHN. That's heating the lead in a convection toaster oven for at least an hour and then immediately quenching in ice water. BHN tests were conducted after 5 days. Heat treated lead will continue to age harden for about 5 days and then stabilize for a while. Air cooled will age harden for about 3 weeks and then stabilize. My AC'd COWW + 2% Sn was 10-11 BHN after 21 days.

[P Flados]

The old WWs could have more antimony than you think.

I also got a bunch of free roofing lead (vents). I "smelted" the batch and the ingots behave pretty "pure". BHN is right and no change in hardness with aging.

With COWWs mixed 50-50 with the above, and with 2% - 3% pewter (enriched with a little copper) mixed in, I have had batches get right hard. Around 18 BHN or so.

The more surprising result was from 2xPB + 1xCOWW (see details below). When I read up on it, no one really predicts water drop hardness for any specific alloy. With close to 1% antimony plus "trace" arsenic and/or copper, I got a peak at 16.8 BHN where a 1xPB + 2xCOWW (double the antimony) only did a peak of 20.6 BHN:



Mix 150925
Tin %
Antimony %
Arsenic %
Copper %
Lead %
Wt (lbs)
Hardness
($ / lb)


Pure Lead
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
100.0%
1.4
Brinell 5
$0.10


Clip On Wheel Weight
0.50%
3.00%
0.25%
0.00%
96.5%
0.7
Brinell 12
$0.45


Pewter
92.50%
6.00%
0.0%
1.50%
0.00%
0.0665
Brinell 23
$10.00


Mix 150925
3.00%
1.15%
0.08%
0.046%
95.78%
2.17
10.5
$0.52



Date
Dent (in)
Force (lb)
Multiplier
Ball (in)
Ball (mm)
BHN
Days


Water Dropped
09/25/15
0.120
49.8
4
0.172
4.369
10.6



Water Dropped
09/26/15
0.124
59.2
4
0.172
4.369
11.7
1


Water Dropped
10/01/15
0.118
59.4
4
0.172
4.369
13.2
6


Water Dropped
10/02/15
0.106
56.4
4
0.172
4.369
16.1
7


Water Dropped
10/04/15
0.104
56.6
4
0.172
4.369
16.8
9


Water Dropped
10/09/15
0.132
84.5
4
0.2189
5.560
15.6
14





Mix 151002
Tin %
Antimony %
Arsenic %
Copper %
Lead %
Wt (lbs)
Hardness
($ / lb)


Pure Lead
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%
100.0%
1.00
Brinell 5
$0.10


Clip On Wheel Weight
0.50%
3.00%
0.25%
0.00%
96.5%
2.00
Brinell 12
$0.45


Pewter + Cu(@800)
88.28%
5.73%
0.00%
6.00%
0.00%
0.1088
Brinell 23
$10.00


Mix 151002
3.41%
2.13%
0.16%
0.210%
94.22%
3.11
11.5
$0.67



Date
Dent (in)
Force (lb)
Multiplier
Ball (in)
Ball (mm)
BHN
Days


Water Dropped
10/02/15
0.100
56.4
4
0.172
4.369
18.3



Water Dropped
10/04/15
0.095
56.6
4
0.172
4.369
20.6
2


Water Dropped
10/09/15
0.122
84.5
4
0.2189
5.560
18.6
7


Water Dropped
10/14/15
0.124
85
4
0.2189
5.560
18.1
12

[scottfire1957]

I have read, here and other places, that waterdropped alloys, like COWW, that contain Sb and As, will increase in hardness over a few weeks.


Perhaps some research is in order.

[30Carbine]

So tomorrow I am going to take samples of the sheeting and ww's to the school of mines and get it analyzed. then I will know what is going on here for sure I think p flados you might be on to something here.

[30Carbine]

So the school got done running the tests on the ww. shocked to say the least. I have 600 lbs. of this stuff I need more pure...

2.6% SN
9.26% SB
1.02% AS
.02% CU
87.1% PB

[outdoorfan]

I'm not surprised that your ww's from that era/vintage tested with that much sb in it. If your sheet lead is close to pure, it will easily bend without breaking. If it takes a lot of effort to bend, and it also breaks, then you know it also has some kind of hardening agent in it.

[scottfire1957]

So the school got done running the tests on the ww. shocked to say the least. I have 600 lbs. of this stuff I need more pure...

2.6% SN
9.26% SB
1.02% AS
.02% CU
87.1% PB


Yeah, you do. Might be good trade material.

[00buck]

You did a great job on that spreadsheet!

[fredj338]

I say it's the error reading the Lee tester. You shouldn't have that much variation from cast to cast. Roofing lead is pretty darn soft. Old clip ww are about 11-12bhn. Water dropping those should get you around 18bhn. Water dropping roofing lead, I doubt you even get to 10bhn.

[P Flados]

So the school got done running the tests on the ww. shocked to say the least. I have 600 lbs. of this stuff I need more pure...

2.6% SN
9.26% SB
1.02% AS
.02% CU
87.1% PB

Goodness, 600 lbs of 9.26% Sb.

That works out to 55.6 lbs of Sb.

To get down close to 2%, you would need to end up with 2600 lbs.

Let see, 2600 lb, 32 boolits per lb (@ 220 grs) is 83,000.
Since you probably do not want to buy a ton of pure, and since 83,000 is more than a couple of years of shooting, I was suggest some swapping is in order
:drinks:.

FYI, when I said "The old WWs could have more antimony" I had no idea you were over 3x normal.

[30Carbine]

153274153275 This is what all the WW look like. there are none that look different they are all 2.25 oz with the p and the 64 on them. he must have had ocd sorting these. or a very good reason to sort these this way. I re checked with the lee tester, just in case I made a mistake. I had a buddy in Wyoming check all this with his cabine tree and pencil's all come out the same. I did leave him the exact same stuff I used to start a new and re check. he will be done in a week with his own results. the roof sheeting is pure and some stinky stuff tar everywhere on it. I could have made a mistake we all do from time to time. I am just looking for answers that make sense. oh and I have more than enough to cover the 2600lbs of pure that is needed if the results are true and accurate.. I should have gotten to these last year before the old man passed then I could have asked questions.

[Wizwheel]

600 pounds of shot sounds like a good use of hard lead.