Low shoulders on 308

[Dickieray]

I have sized some 308 brass too deep lowering the shoulders about 1/8" too much. They protrude from the case gauge (that I should have gotten before sizing) that much.
Is there any way to save them, or are they just scrap now?

[rockrat]

I wonder about necking them up to 35 cal. then reducing the neck to 30 dimensions. Might leave you with enough properly located shoulder for it to work. Probably have to anneal the necks though.

[country gent]

How many cases are there like this? WHat type action? A bolt action you could possibly load with a bullet into the rifling to provide support and fire with a light load. Otherwise you need to neck up to 35 or 38 caliber and size back down to correct shoulder and fire form. Alot of work for common 308 cases unless there are a bunch of them. 8-10 grns of pistol powder and a 1/4 sheet of toliet paper ( no bullet) pushed into case to hold powder may reform the shoulder also. Sizing down that much put a lot of extra work into the brass lowering its life some. WHat die were you using to size it down that far below? 1/8" is .125 most die shellholder combos are doing good to get .010 back to far.

[dilly]

Could they be converted to 300 savage brass maybe you save them?

[tomme boy]

Load the bullet long and jam it hard into the rifling and shoot. You have have to do this a couple of times before they fill out all the way.

[EDG]

I would expand them with a tapered .358 Win plug then FL size to leave a small shoulder that is hard against the chamber.
If you have to fire them several times to get them to fill out the wasted time, effort, powder and primers make them junk.
If there are not very many they are scrap bucked material unless you want to make 8mm Kurz or . 357 Auto mag or 7mmBR or other stubby round.

[Dickieray]

How many cases are there like this? WHat type action? A bolt action you could possibly load with a bullet into the rifling to provide support and fire with a light load. Otherwise you need to neck up to 35 or 38 caliber and size back down to correct shoulder and fire form. Alot of work for common 308 cases unless there are a bunch of them. 8-10 grns of pistol powder and a 1/4 sheet of toliet paper ( no bullet) pushed into case to hold powder may reform the shoulder also. Sizing down that much put a lot of extra work into the brass lowering its life some. WHat die were you using to size it down that far below? 1/8" is .125 most die shellholder combos are doing good to get .010 back to far.
There are about 250-300 0f them. Mostly LC from a military facility (probably machine gun fired once). Used a FL RCBS die. Did not have a case gauge.

[country gent]

Correct shell holder and the correct die shouldnt be able to push the shoulder back .125 to far unless die was shortened dramatically for some reason. Necking up to 35 cal then resize to leave a false shoulder on location then fireform load. You will probably lose some to neck splits and cracks though. You also need to find out what is allowing this to happen to this degree. Machine gun fired brass is ussually oversized to start out. Even a small based full length die set down to touch the shellholder shouldnt push the shoulder back that far.

[EDG]

RCBS FL dies are dimensioned about half way between a go and a not go lenght.

Something else is wrong or that RCBS die is way out of specification.

Most people successfully reload their life time without a gage because the die makers are so good.

[oso]

I agree with country gent and EDG's last post. This situation does not make sense to me. I don't understand how you could shove the shoulder back using the correct die and the usual technique (with the shell in the correct shell holder and no excess case lube.)
If the brass was over-size it may be over-length after you resized it. What is the length of the brass in question? Do the necks just need to be trimmed?

[Dickieray]

Correct shell holder and the correct die shouldnt be able to push the shoulder back .125 to far unless die was shortened dramatically for some reason. Necking up to 35 cal then resize to leave a false shoulder on location then fireform load. You will probably lose some to neck splits and cracks though. You also need to find out what is allowing this to happen to this degree. Machine gun fired brass is ussually oversized to start out. Even a small based full length die set down to touch the shellholder shouldnt push the shoulder back that far.
I used a RCBS shell holder too. Raised the ram to the top.....touched it with the die.....Backed off 1/4 turn and sized them. I would have been shooting them in a TC ProHunter.

[Dickieray]

I agree with country gent and EDG's last post. This situation does not make sense to me. I don't understand how you could shove the shoulder back using the correct die and the usual technique (with the shell in the correct shell holder and no excess case lube.)
If the brass was over-size it may be over-length after you resized it. What is the length of the brass in question? Do the necks just need to be trimmed?
I trimmed the brass before sizing. They mic to specs after trimming.

[Dickieray]

Correct shell holder and the correct die shouldnt be able to push the shoulder back .125 to far unless die was shortened dramatically for some reason. Necking up to 35 cal then resize to leave a false shoulder on location then fireform load. You will probably lose some to neck splits and cracks though. You also need to find out what is allowing this to happen to this degree. Machine gun fired brass is ussually oversized to start out. Even a small based full length die set down to touch the shellholder shouldnt push the shoulder back that far.
Die is as it came from the factory.......no modifications.

[Brasso]

If I'm understanding this correctly, I think the shoulders have not been pushed back enough. If the case is sticking out of the case gauge there's too much length from base to shoulder. The shoulder still needs to be pushed back more.

[oso]

Have you ever heard it said that the solution to a problem may be obvious after it is figured out.
Help me out here. This is all too vague for me. "They mic to specs after trimming." Does not answer my question: "What is the length of the brass in question?"
The devil may in the details, so let's nail down the details. What is the actual length of this brass now?
Pictures of the brass in and out of your case gauge with another unsized case for comparison may help clarify.
You wrote: "Mostly LC from a military facility (probably machine gun fired once). Used a FL RCBS die." So I assumed .308 Win brass and .308 Win FL RCBS die. Are these assumptions correct?
What are the details concerning your case gauge?
I was assuming the neck of the case was protruding, but Brasso is considering that the base may be protruding. What is the missing detail here?

[Dickieray]

If I'm understanding this correctly, I think the shoulders have not been pushed back enough. If the case is sticking out of the case gauge there's too much length from base to shoulder. The shoulder still needs to be pushed back more.

Nope it sinks in at the case head end of the gauge and sticks out on the neck end.

[Dickieray]

Dillon case gauge.......Cases measure OAL 2.015" to 2.016" Specs are 2.015"

[country gent]

If your calipers have a depth rod measure from high step on case gage to case head and get us that dimension. It will give us a better idea of the shoulder location on these cases.

[BK7saum]

I'm am confused on how you ended up pushing the shoulders back too far. With dies and a shell holder in spec, there is absolutely no way for that to happen. Either the case gauge was reamed too deep or the Rcbs dies are way too shallow. If the dies, then RCBS likely owes you some brass. Their die instructions if not changed say to screw die down to touch she'll holder then 1/16 to 1/8 turn further.

I always size brass to fit my chambers. Start out with die backed off of shellholder. Size brass and check in chamber. The bolt should be resistant to closing. Continue to screw the die in at small intervals (one revolution is 0.071"), size and check. When the bolt will just close with little to no resistance, you're done and the die is set for that rifle. If multiple rifles, the size to fit the tightest chamber. Of course, a hornady comparator to measure case head to shoulder makes setting up dies for a particle a snap.

Here's a check for you. Do you have a fired case from your 308 rifle? Put a .40 case or or other pistol case that will fit over the neck and mouth and rest on the case shoulder. Then measure the overall length of the two cases with your calipers. Then do the same with these allegedly sized too much cases.

Let us know those numbers. They are arbitrary in themselves but the difference will tell us what you have with the sized cases.

[BK7saum]

I've been reloading for a long time and have never used a case gauge. They are not required but are handy for checking loaded ammo for saami spec fit.

[Dickieray]

If your calipers have a depth rod measure from high step on case gage to case head and get us that dimension. It will give us a better idea of the shoulder location on these cases.
I don't have a depth rod on my calpers.

[Dickieray]

I'm am confused on how you ended up pushing the shoulders back too far. With dies and a shell holder in spec, there is absolutely no way for that to happen. Either the case gauge was reamed too deep or the Rcbs dies are way too shallow. If the dies, then RCBS likely owes you some brass. Their die instructions if not changed say to screw die down to touch she'll holder then 1/16 to 1/8 turn further.

I always size brass to fit my chambers. Start out with die backed off of shellholder. Size brass and check in chamber. The bolt should be resistant to closing. Continue to screw the die in at small intervals (one revolution is 0.071"), size and check. When the bolt will just close with little to no resistance, you're done and the die is set for that rifle. If multiple rifles, the size to fit the tightest chamber. Of course, a hornady comparator to measure case head to shoulder makes setting up dies for a particle a snap.

Here's a check for you. Do you have a fired case from your 308 rifle? Put a .40 case or or other pistol case that will fit over the neck and mouth and rest on the case shoulder. Then measure the overall length of the two cases with your calipers. Then do the same with these allegedly sized too much cases.

Let us know those numbers. They are arbitrary in themselves but the difference will tell us what you have with the sized cases.
All the brass I have has been run through these dies. I have some loads worked up for a range trip, but, I'm afraid to shoot them now. I have an almost new barrel (fired six times to zero in a scope) on the TC now and certainly don't want to ruin it. I have had some problems with another barrel with cracked casings and some (2) complete separations of the upper end of the case from the lower end of the case. I figured it was the barrel, but, now I'm thinking its the dies.......too much of a coincidence. I'm going to contact RCBS and see if they will check out this set or at least the sizing die. Meanwhile it's deer season! Guess i need to go factory until this is solved.

[BK7saum]

What do the cases look like in the TC chamber? I guess you couldn't really tell without removing the extractor. Never mind.

[Dickieray]

I have found the problem guys. I am a trusting soul and have been misled by a seller. I did not buy the die set new, but, from this website. Upon further inspection the die has been shortened. I can't believe I was sold (and did not closely inspect and find the die had been tampered with) a modified die. He die a good job of it and for 3 years or so I have been jamming my casing shoulders back as fast as i blew them out to where they belonged. No wonder after 4 or 5 loads the cases were trying to come apart. Thanks for all the help and advice guys. Sorry i missed the obvious!!!

[country gent]

A good machinist or toolmaker can modify a die and it dosnt show. Your okay with the die, you just need toadjust it up to match your rifels needs. If they will fit drop 5-6 fired cases into your gage and measure case head depth. If your calipers wont measure depth then put a spacer ( #8 0r 10 washer or other item) on the case head and measure over it to face of gage This gives a "comparative" measurement to set your sizing die to -.001- -.002. this will allow for easier chambering. I have custom chambers that are dead 0 on headspace that Ive had to remove a small amount from die base to resize fully, But I stamp the amount Ive shortened the die next to caliber designation so its known IE 308 win - .005. The die will work fine still. to rough set it find a washer or piece of stock .125 thick and set on top of shell holder run die down to touch lightly and adjust from there.

[Dickieray]

Ifanyone can use these cases they are yours for the postage, or free if you pick them up FTF.

[Fishman]

I sent a PM.

These might work just dandy in my .308 Marlin express for range work at least. Others have reported success with resized .308 brass. The .308 marlin has a small rim, but most will operate with the .308 rim as well.

I will need to trim the neck of course.

I wonder if the die was modified for reloading the .308 marlin.

[Dickieray]

Cases are spoken for.

[Geezer in NH]

I don't have a depth rod on my calpers.

Then they are unique

[leadman]

Dickieray, When sizing brass for a T/C (assuming it is an Encore) you need to do it a little differently. Use your barrel and the frame to determine your "Headspace".
There is usually a gap between the frame and the end of the barrel that needs to be taken into account. I use an automotive feeler gauge between the end of the case and the breech of the frame. I use a .0015" gauge mostly. Size your brass so there is just a very light drag on the feeler gauge with the action locked up. Make sure you feeler gauge is above the extractor. If the feeler gauge can not be pulled out size the case to push the shoulder back slightly and measure again.
There is a good explanation of this on Mike Bellm's website. He also shows a method using a dial indicator and a special tool placed on the end of the barrel. I have this and have found, like Mike that this is not necessary.

[Dickieray]

Dickieray, When sizing brass for a T/C (assuming it is an Encore) you need to do it a little differently. Use your barrel and the frame to determine your "Headspace".
There is usually a gap between the frame and the end of the barrel that needs to be taken into account. I use an automotive feeler gauge between the end of the case and the breech of the frame. I use a .0015" gauge mostly. Size your brass so there is just a very light drag on the feeler gauge with the action locked up. Make sure you feeler gauge is above the extractor. If the feeler gauge can not be pulled out size the case to push the shoulder back slightly and measure again.
There is a good explanation of this on Mike Bellm's website. He also shows a method using a dial indicator and a special tool placed on the end of the barrel. I have this and have found, like Mike that this is not necessary.
Thanks leadman. I have been reading up on and watching some of the videos. I'm getting a few shims and a feeler gauge from him. I'm shooting several calibers on the same prohunter. Got a lot of work to do getting them right.