7.62x51 dies? (no, not .308)

[phaux]

Does anyone know of any 7.62x51 dies that are out on the market? And no, I can't use .308 as I'm firing roller delayed blowback rifles (cetme, g3, etc) and the slight difference in brass makes a difference.

[Larry Gibson]

No there are no "7.62x51" dies out there because they are all .308W dies. The reason for that is simple; they are dimensionally the same case externally. The differences of internal dimensions has no effect on the sizing and loading of the case. I suggest you get a regular set of RCBS X-dies in .308W. You do not need the "AR" or the SB" dies for use with your delayed blow back system as it should have the 7.62 NATO dimensioned chamber.

I have posted a very extensive test I did of the .308W RCBS X-die using a surplus M14 barrel on my M1A. I have also used the X-dies to load for an HK91 with completed success.

Larry Gibson

[Hickok]

Larry is correct. I loaded for a HK91 I owned years ago with regular .308 Win dies.

Those fluted chambers really work on brass, and ejection is "robust" to say the least!

[gwpercle]

From everything I'm looking at 7.62 X 51 is 7.62 Nato .
A check with CH4D list, showed it as 308 Win. Possibly you need a small base die set for the roller delayed blowback rifles ?
Call or e-mail Dave Davison over at CH4D (www.ch4d.com (http://www.ch4d.com) ) and he can fix you up with exactly the right die.
Remember to tell him the ammo will be for multiple different rifles...this might make a difference.
Gary

[lightman]

I know of no difference between the 7.62 x 51 and the 308 Winchester. I've loaded thousands of military 7.62x51's and commercial 308 Winchesters that were fired in M-14's (the real ones), M1-A's, BAR's, 742's, Winchester 100's, H&K 91's, G3's, Cetme's, Remington 700's,various AR's and a few others. They were all loaded with RCBS dies and all worked fine. The fluted chambers in the H&K's and the aggressive ejection was tough on the brass, but nothing extra was needed. The original small base dies were made for rifles like the BAR and the Savage 99. They are usually not needed in other rifles, although they do help if you are trying to use surplus brass fired in machine guns. I recommend you just buy a set of RCBS or Redding FL dies and go shooting. Don't overthink this, the 308/7.62 is an easy cartridge to load for.

[phaux]

The reason for that is simple; they are dimensionally the same case externally.


152887

No, they're not. I have old cetme's with 7.62x51 chambers, not 308 chambers as most of the newer ones(cetme's and hk91's) on the market have, and a few of my rifles will destroy 308 brass but run perfectly on x51. Out of the box x51, runs great, 308 and reloaded x51, no go.

[shaune509]

Many varables, brass wall thickness, brass hardness, different tolerance range between nato and civlian ammo, looser nato chamber for battle field conditions. Check head space and set up all your guns to the same spec, the cetmes design changes the rollers to adjust head space, but as stated before they are hard on brass. Mho
Shaune509

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

152887

No, they're not. I have old cetme's with 7.62x51 chambers, not 308 chambers as most of the newer ones(cetme's and hk91's) on the market have, and a few of my rifles will destroy 308 brass but run perfectly on x51. Out of the box x51, runs great, 308 and reloaded x51, no go.

Have your rifle's chamber converted to .308W or buy surplus. If you want to reload and can find 7.62 Nato dies, please let me know.

[M-Tecs]

Saami specs for the 308

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf

The 7.62 falls under the STANAG 2310 specs.

I can't find a print but the Nato Go gauge is .003" to .005" longer than the 308. Some source say .003", .004" or .005" but the 7.62 Nato go gauge I have is .003" longer.

The real issue is some commerical 308 brass is thinner than the NATO and it doesn't play well in fluted chambers.

308 dies are the standard and it is a simple matter to adjust your 308 so you only set the should back .002". An RCBS case mike works best for most.

The posted chart compares a 308 min. to a 7.62 field gauge.

Some more info here:

http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

[Artful]

NOTICE the cartridge dimension says it's same thing dimensionally?
http://www.rangingthoughts.org/gBlog/image.axd?picture=2011%2F9%2F7.62+NATO+va+.308+Win +05small.jpg
The difference between your drawing is chamber between a Field Gauged
vs Go Gauged chamber.

You do know that as a reloader you have control of your cartridge dimensions don't you? You control the head space of your ammunition in your firearm.

I have been using the same RCBS 308 dies in my HK91 since 1980's without a problem. You don't need some 7.62x51 specialty die to reload for your battle rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

152887

No, they're not. I have old cetme's with 7.62x51 chambers, not 308 chambers as most of the newer ones(cetme's and hk91's) on the market have, and a few of my rifles will destroy 308 brass but run perfectly on x51. Out of the box x51, runs great, 308 and reloaded x51, no go.

phaux

Sorry but it is you who are incorrect. The chamber dimensional difference between 7.62 NATO chambers and the .308W have absolutely nothing to do with the dimensions of the cartridge case and the dies needed to reload them. The fact the CETME also is very hard on the cases also has nothing to do with the external dimensions of the cases and the dies needed to size and load them. The slightly larger dimensions of the 7.62 NATO chamber, especially the headspace dimension, are there to ensure reliable functioning in automatic weapons under the most adverse conditions. However, the case dimensions and case headspace dimensions are the same for the .308W and the 7.62 NATO.

The CETME and the HK91 require the thicker (particularly in the web area) 7.62 NATO. "Thicker" reduces the interior capacity dimensions of the case while the exterior dimensions are the same as the .308W. The use of standard FL dies, especially SB dies, precipitates the stretching of the case in the expansion ring/web area and leads to incipient case head separation, especially if the thinner dimensioned commercial .308W cases are used. With the use of the RCBS standard X-die 7.62 cases can be reloaded numerous times, even in a CETMA. The key is to use correct cases that have not been fired in a MG, size them to fit the chamber (not a "headspace" gauge or with the shell holder bumping into the bottom of the FL die) and to properly adjust the gas adjustment so the rifle just reliably functions. All reloading done with the .308W standard FL X-die.

Otherwise can you point out to us the availability of a 7.62 NATO only reloading die, particularly for the CETME 7.62 NATO?

Larry Gibson

[Greg S]

I have reloaded for several '7.62 x 51' rifles and have had no problems ecept short case life in the Centme due to the fluted chamber. My SCAR chamber is the longest (308 SAMMI +.007-008) AND i size my cases to Saami +.006 and am on my 4th or 5th loading. I generally loose about 30% of my brass on the initial resizing for a Centme and usually get no more than 2 reloads outta a piece of brass. If you want longer brass life in a MBR move on to newer technology. Centme was a great rifle with surplus ammo till it dried up. My best suggestion for you is LC brass and a case gauge and minimal resizing. You start screwing the die down to the shell holder and resizing that brass to saami -004 to 000 and your cases are streching too much. Get a shoulder gauge and measure factory 308 and 7.62 x 51 before and after firing and size accordingly.

Are you having case head seperation, it is a sizing problem, longitudinal splits is a fluted chamber side effect.

[Hickok]

Larry know what he is talking about.

I used the Winchester "White Box" 147gr FMJ brass in my HK. I still use this brand of brass in my M1a NM. It has the NATO stamp on the rim, O with + in the circle. This is supposedly mil-spec 7.62 x 51 brass, being thicker than standard .308 Win.

My M1A NM has a minimum spec head space chamber. IN fact the rifle came with headspace specs and the initials of the fellow who checked/set the specs. I have loaded untold rounds of ammunition for this M1A with standard .308 reloading dies. No need for "small base dies either.

I have several sets of .308 dies, Lee's, RCBS, and Wilson arbor press neck dies that I use on my Remington 700 Heavy barrel .308.

And again I will say that having used .308 Win. stardard dies in an HK91, I had no problems. And I have no problem with them in a M1A NM rifle.

One word of caution, Mil-spec 7.62x51 brass is thicker and has less internal capacity, and therefore takes lower powder charges than factory .308 brass. Be careful of .308 Win load data in military 7.62 x 51 chambered rifles.

.308 Winchester load data for commercial bolt action rifles can exceed pressure specs for 7.62x51 rifles.

This is a whole another topic, .308 pressures and 7.62 x 51 Nato pressures.

For me powder selection has always been in the Imr 4895 burn rate for the 7.62 x 51 rifles. They are several good powders that fit this "burn rate" for these rifles.

[lead-1]

I have loaded between 2-3k rounds of ammo for my CETME using surplus brass loaded with standard RCBS .308 Win dies with zero problems. I didn't get more than two, maybe three reloads to my brass before the neck split but I never annealed the brass.
The same loaded ammo worked fine in my FAL as well as my friends FA91 with the aluminum receiver.

[Hickok]

I have loaded between 2-3k rounds of ammo for my CETME using surplus brass loaded with standard RCBS .308 Win dies with zero problems. I didn't get more than two, maybe three reloads to my brass before the neck split but I never annealed the brass.
The same loaded ammo worked fine in my FAL as well as my friends FA91 with the aluminum receiver.And the ejection process of these type rifles throws the brass half way to the target! Hard to find empty cases!

Phaux, order a set of Lee .308 dies, as they are a bargain for the price, and give them a try.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Phaux: the problem with your "theory," is that your drawing doesn't tell the whole story.

If you look at Arts "Winchester Drawing," Which is the correct version, (they're the outfit that invented the cartridge) you will see both of the dimensions you state in your original retort on the "Headspace Length" of the cartridge. (The length dimension to a point on the shoulder of the case.) are actually given as a tolerance. Note: the top drawing is the cartridge case and the bottom drawing is the chamber.

These dimensions are the Minimum and Maximum overall length of the "Headspace" of that cartridge. Since the cartridge is rimless, it headspaces on the shoulder and base of the case.

"ALL" dimensions must have a tolerance since it is impossible to manufacture exact clones of anything. Your drawing doesn't have a tolerance, and quite frankly it was created by someone who may have had a good knowledge of the rifles but was missing some important information. IE: He didn't really know what he was talking about.

"All chambers" have a minimum and maximum tolerance. This is because ammunition varies.

This is why there are Go and No-Go headspace gages.

If you still feel the need to have a longer shoulder length for your reloaded cases then just back your sizing die off .

Randy