First muzzleloader?

[Mauser48]

Hey guys. I'm looking into buying my first muzzleloader. Looks like a lot of fun. I know I want to go with a traditional cap lock rifle. I mainly would like to shoot round balls. What brand would you guys recommend? I was looking at traditions. I'm looking to spend around $350. If I have to get it used that's ok too. Thanks!

[Mk42gunner]

Wait until after hunting season is over, then start looking in the pawnshops. I have gotten a T/C Renegade for $175 and a T/C New Englander for $100, both .54 caliber.

Good Luck, and don't forget to put the powder in first,

Robert

[nekshot]

Agree with above, T/C side lock for sure!

[waarp8nt]

Nothing wrong with used Thompsons. I have only bought a couple new, but several used ones. Quality built and can be great shooters.

[cbashooter]

The investarms (lyman or Cabelas) are also very good guns to be had resonable at times.my great plains was $200.my buddy just got a .54 trade rifle for $150.

[bubba.50]

you can get a Lyman Deerstalker or Lyman Trade Rifle new-in-box from Midsouth Shooters Supply for $379.00 for either one. I am a big fan of T/C's and the Lyman's are every bit as good.

[LAGS]

I just picked up a T C Hawken for $160.00 and it is a heck of a shooter.
50 yards, with Round balls and Pyrodex all three shots touching.
I also found a Barrel and stock to build another for $120.00

[Mauser48]

What do you guys think of the traditions hawken or Kentucky rifle?

[Fly]

There not bad. If I had to chose between there Kentucky or Hawken, I would go with the Hawken.
The Kentucky is a two peace stock. But if I were you I would shop the pawn shops for a Thomson Center.
You should be able to get one around $250. They are a very well made muzzle loader.

Fly

[kens]

I say watch the twist rate of whatever barrel you look at.
Patched round balls prefer a slow twist, and conicals need fast twist.
Some modern makers go to fast twist barrels
A .45 or .50 round ball twist is 1:66 or 70".
A conical twist is 1:28, 1:36".
I got a .50 1:48" and it doesnt like balls nor conicals very well, it is a lousy in between twist.

[LAGS]

I have to agree with kens about the "In Between" 1 in 48 twist.
You just have to find the right powder charge for a Ball Load,and another for the Slug load.
And those will be the only two loads you can reliably use in the Mid Twist barrel for consistent accuracy.
But if you use R B and a slow twist, you can load Low to high with reasonable accuracy threw the whole range of loads.
Same with the Fast Twist, and the slugs or Sabots, it will shoot more consistent, threw all loads either High or Low.
I have had T/C's with a 1/48 twist, and am very pleased with their accuracy with both Balls and Slugs.
But if the slug load that is accurate is a low charge, I surely wouldn't want to try and hunt with it.
But it is nice to have the combination twist for your first rifle, and you won't be limited to either Ball or Slugs.
I will be ordering a second barrel for my Lyman Great Plains in the fast twist for hunting rather than take the T/C and have to rely on an sub standard Load with slugs or Sabots.

[dondiego]

I have excellent accuracy with a 1/48 twist TC Hawken and a round ball with 80 to 90 grains of BP.

[hc18flyer]

I agree with MK42 Gunner. Pick up a slide-in bore light and shop after deer season. Lots of never abused TC's. My first ml is a Lyman Great Plains, but have TC Hawkens, favorite 'tree stand gun' is a New Englander. Flyer

[LAGS]

I did look at the Traditions Hawken Kits for a friend who might want to get into ML rifles.
They weren't too bad, and and I have seen them shoot very well.
My friend wants me to teach him how to put the Kit together, in a Professional Manor so it doesn't look like it was done by a beginner.
Fit and Finish makes the difference, but has little to do with the accuracy on a ML

[pietro]

.

Since you want to get a capgun, don't get sucked-in by the allure of the pre-formed powder pellets (they're tough for a sidehammer to ignite), or any BP substitute (Pyrodex, 777, etc) for that matter - I would suggest using loose powder charges, of Holy Black preferably (FFg or FFFg can be used).


.

[Fly]

If your thinking Kit guns, I would look at Lyman kits. Lyman makes the best traditional mass produced
kit out there. I love mine.
Fly

[bubba.50]

if you end up with a mass-produced gun with the industry standard 1 in 48 twist you will be well served by it. I've owned & shot dozens of T/C guns in caliber from 45 to 58 with that twist & every one of them would shoot better than I can with either maxi-balls or roundballs. my favorite 54cal Renegade would shoot three-shot cloverleafs all day long at 75yds with either projectile.

[Lever-man]

I agree with bubba.50. My T/C 50 cal 1:48 is one of the best shooting guns I have ever owned with hunting loads of either prb or the Lee REAL 250 gr sighted in at 75 yards.

[Mauser48]

I have been looking at the t/c hawken now.My main question is why are they being sold for so cheap? On midway it said they were being sold for $780 before being discontinued. In seeing them used for $200. Thanks for the advice!

[DW475]

I have both the T/C Renegade and Hawken in 54 cal. I found the patched round balls shoot extremely accurate. Seems the price of a good used T/C Hawken fluctuates from one location to another. I've seen used ones selling anywhere from $200 - $400. If your finding one that's in great condition for $200, that sounds like a heck of buy to me. I bought my Hawken used from an estate sale and paid $350.

[Lead Fred]

$350 is about half of what you need to buy a quality muzzle loader.

But then most buy a cheap third world production piece, have nothing but problems, and give up, because the junk dont work right.

Ever try to get replacement parts for these cheap guns? It takes years sometimes, or you just get the part made at high cost.

Those that dont give up, end up buying a semi-custom, or custom built, or do what we did and made our own.
Its not rocket science, folks with 6th grade education used to build master pieces.

BTW OIL, petroleum products WILL NOT WORK WITH BLACK POWDER
It mixes together to make sludge. Which gums up the entire system.

As far as loading goes, 80-90 grs is too much for most calibers under 54.

They have a cool thing called the Davenport Formula. You can find how much powder is the MAX your barrel can burn,
then work backwards to get the most accurate charge.

My standard load is 54.5 grs of 3f. That yields 1630fps. When I double the charge for longer shots, I get 2033fps.
Using the Davenport Formula, I reduced my charge to 74.5 grs, and I still get 2033fps.
Stop wasting powder.

You can do a search for the Davenport Formula on the website, Ive posted it before, or PM me and & send it to your.

[Mk42gunner]

I have been looking at the t/c hawken now.My main question is why are they being sold for so cheap? On midway it said they were being sold for $780 before being discontinued. In seeing them used for $200. Thanks for the advice!
In my opinion, they are being sold cheap because a lot of otherwise knowledgeable people have absolutely no idea there are quality sidelock muzzle loaders. It seems from reading mainstream hunting magazines that "everybody" wants modern inlines that look and feel similar to bolt action rifles with plastic stocks these days.

Add to that, ten to twenty years ago you could walk into almost any Walmart and buy a brand new .50 cal CVA Bobcat (IIRC) for $58.00. Less if it was on clearance.

To me, the best bet on a used good condition muzzle loader would be the previously mentioned T/C, Lyman or maybe a Pedersoli. Birmingham made Parker-Hale Enfields are also pretty good guns in my experience, I have not handled any of the Italian made Parker-Hales.

Robert

[swathdiver]

For $200 or less this fella could get started with a nice low mileage CVA rifle, such as the Frontier or Plainsman or Hawken.

[Hang Fire]

I bought a used TC Hawken lock and stock few years back for $150.00, but the barrel in it was an Orion 32" .45 caliber drop in. It has proven to be the most accurate rocklock I own.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/TCOrion2.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/TANSTAAFL-2/media/TCOrion2.jpg.html)

[Mauser48]

Thanks guys. If I were to buy a Kentucky rifle what brand do you recommend? I think after a t/c a Kentucky rifle will be my choice!

[freebullet]

If I could start over my experience in muzzleloading would go- flintlock & inline only.

[doc1876]

just learn a lot about how to inspect it for proper care, especially the barrel. If someone used pyrodex, and did not clean it well, you could be better off with out one.
Take some patches, and ask for permission to "run one down".

Get beyond the shiny, and your deer in the headlights look. take your time, and take care of yourself.

[Lever-man]

A friend gave me an entry level 50 cal. Traditions in-line that had been shot with Pyrodex, not cleaned, then set in a closet for a year before I received it. I was surprised that it cleaned up very well with very little pitting and is a "shooter" today. It just depends on how many times it is done this way. In my case it was a new gun that had only been done that way once. I use it as a loaner for friends that want to try BP, it shoots the Lee 250 gr REAL very well and has a few deer to its credit.

[freebullet]

As cheap as they are go with a stainless inline. Pyrodex hasn't caused any issues in them for me.

[JeffinNZ]

Nothing wrong with used Thompsons. I have only bought a couple new, but several used ones. Quality built and can be great shooters.

Providing it has been looked after. If you are buying second hand get a little bore light you can drop down the barrel so you can see the condition of the tube.

[rfd]

i love traditional muzzle loaders, i've owned, kit built, and shot more than a few dozen traditional ml's, 95% were flintlocks. i did have a pair of lyman trade rifles in each flavor of lock. either are an incredible value, made by invest arms with really good barrels and coil spring locks. on the other hand, i've had a pair of traditions ml's, one a flint kit i built and the other a pre-built percussion. both worked very well but beware that traditions (or most any spain built ml) build the barrels and breech locks in a manner that to remove the plug will destroy the barrel. this is a fact, and only of concern if there's a need to pull the breech plug, 'cause it can't be done without requiring a new barrel. i always advise a newbie to ml's on a budget to seriously consider the lyman trade rifle. however, lyman, cva, traditions, pedersoli, etc. can't hold a candle to a well made gunsmith muzzle loader with top shelf barrel, lock, stock and trigger(s).

[Mauser48]

Thank you very informative. Are the traditions muzzleloaders okay? I see a lot of people on here like the Crockett rifle made by them. I was looking at the Kentucky rifle.

[rfd]

Thank you very informative. Are the traditions muzzleloaders okay? I see a lot of people on here like the Crockett rifle made by them. I was looking at the Kentucky rifle.

read my last post, right above yours.

i had the crockett rifle and i also put together the traditions hawken flinter, both are just fine fine for what they are - bottom feeder ml's with spanish built barrels and locks and triggers that work ok but are nowhere near the league of a custom traditional sidelock ml. i have no idea how they'd work under heavy use, i sold them both off when i learned that traditions side lock rifle breeches can't be removed without destroying the barrels.

imho, the best value in a low end ml is still the lyman trade rifle in either lock type. these rifles are made by invest arms and have been around for decades, and offer a very good value. they will cost more than a comparable traditions/cva/etc, but the extra spending is worth it, imo. i still have a .50 trade flinter going strong after 9 years, and yep, you can pull the breech plugs on 'em.

whether removable or not, all of these offshore rifles sport patent breeches, which means a bit of extra care is required to get down into the ante chamber and clean it out.

[Mauser48]

What brand makes the best Kentucky rifle? How would a traditions compare to a pedersoli?

[rfd]

lots depends on what you mean by "kentucky" rifle, most think davy crockett or dan'l boone, but there are many iterations of a "kentucky" rifle, all of which have nothing to do with the state of kentucky! "kentucky" really means long rifles (primarily, but there are fowlers in there too) made in pennsylvania that were used to pioneer the "west" (kentucky). it's an american invention with specific features and design parameters that include the brass patch box on the butt stock. lots of different kentucky flavors (caliber, barrel length and type, stock dimensions and lots more), dependent on the era/year in mind.

for the offshore tradtitional ml's, pedersoli and lyman/invest arms are the top of the heap, for me. imo, the rest are a gamble, with traditions almost, but not quite, as bad as the junk coming over from india.

the best classic side locks will come from an onshore builder, there are lots to choose, i've had rifles and fowlers from more than a few from folks like tip curtis and muskrat & holland, and many many others. but yer talking long guns that start at a grand and escalate upwards very quickly.

http://i.imgur.com/GQrn4XM.jpg

[Mauser48]

I was just looking at the pedersoli Kentucky rifle and it has a 1:48 twist. If I'm going to buy a long rifle I would really like a 1:66 twist. How much do think think it would cost me to build a long rifle if I pieces it out with good parts?

[Lever-man]

Have you checked the kits at Trackofthewolf.com?

[rfd]

I was just looking at the pedersoli Kentucky rifle and it has a 1:48 twist. If I'm going to buy a long rifle I would really like a 1:66 twist. How much do think think it would cost me to build a long rifle if I pieces it out with good parts?

1:48 is a compromise between balls and bullets, 1:66 is balls only. building a kit rifle will depend on what stage the kit's in, your crafting abilities, your tooling, and how much yer willing to both spend in money and time.

[Boaz]

Pendersoli Kentucky is a nice rife , had one for a good while and enjoy it . For a keeper rifle it's worth the extra bucks .

[Mauser48]

After looking around I think a T/C hawken will be my best option. I wish I had the cash for a Great Plains rifle. I will be checking my LGS and gun shows. Thank you for all the input.

[bubba.50]

there's a very nice T/C Hawken for sale here in the swappin & sellin section. it's on page three now. ad is titled FS : a Couple of Guns price is a very reasonable $300.00

there's also an new-in-the-box unfinished Hawken kit gun in swappin & sellin for $400.00 if yer handy at all it an be finished in a weekend or so.

[bubba.50]

and midsouth has great plains rifle kits in stock. percussion for $420 & flint for about $30 more.

[rfd]

good stuff, bubba.

i've found that grabagun in texas has the lowest prices on lyman's, if yer looking for a good new stick.

[Lever-man]

If you go with the T/C Hawken keep your eyes peeled for a Green Mountain drop in barrel with a 1:66 twist. If that is really what you want, I managed to get one right before they quit making them and couldn't be happier with my T/C now!