Did I wear out my 1860?

[Swamp Fox]

I've got a brass framed pietta 1860 colt. I've had it about 10 years and shot it a lot, but never with heavy loads. Usually 22grns. It has started taking 2 hits to fire the cap off. Usually it's 2 or 3 cylinders per loading, but not the same ones every time. I've tried new nipples, different cap brands, and even put a new mainspring in it, but nothing seems to improve it. The only idea I have left is that the frame has stretched and the hammer is knocking the cylinder forward, which doesn't leave enough energy to fire the cap. But it doesn't look like I have much movement or gap to the forcing cone if I push the cylinder back. Anybody have any other idea on what to check or is it time to retire this gun?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The hammer should come to rest not striking the uncapped nipple, but so close it will be a steel-to-copper-to-steel contact when you use a cap. You can't get a clear view of the place, but if you cook off a cap on a cooker ring, under a tin can for safety, and then snap the action with that dead cap on the nipple, it should tell you what you need to know.

If the nipple is too far from the hammer, you could adjust it with a thin washer of soft metal. Copper was often used, but a piece of annealed case-neck might do. But I would only do this once. Very slight stretching of the frame shouldn't be dangerous, but you don't want to insert thicker and thicker washers to cover up for a revolver that keeps on going.

[Beagle333]

But it doesn't look like I have much movement or gap to the forcing cone if I push the cylinder back.

How much movement is it? I usually am really thrilled to have .005" there, but I'll shoot em until I get about .015-.017" in there and then I'll stop just because I'm getting too much fire and lead bits out the sides for it to be as much fun as it used to be. But mine still shoot with that much gap.

Also check the face of the hammer where the bend of it hits the frame and check the frame itself. I have seen carbon build up between the curve of the hammer neck and the frame and it won't reach the nipple well. It will also build up on the sides of the hammer and the hammer channel and slow the strike because of a tight fit when the hammer falls. Another thing.... are you sure there aren't any cap fragments that have fallen down into the transmission? A little piece of cap down in there where the hammer rocks back and forth will surely give a weak strike. Do you fully disassemble occasionally and take the hammer completely out?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

If, after you perform the test Ballistics in Scotland suggests, you find out that your suspicions about the hammer no longer striking the cap with sufficient force to fire it due to frame stretching is correct, then your 1860 can be restored to proper functioning in two ways that come to mind.

First, they make shims that look like thin washers, maybe available from Brownell's, that slide over the yoke on which the cylinder turns and move the cylinder rearward. This is a "cut and try" repair in that it might take one shim or perhaps several.

Another approach is to build up the face of the hammer a bit, and this can be accomplished by drilling a hole in the face and tapping it for a screw, then filing the screw head down to the desired level. Micro welding can be used to accomplish the same result. Unless you have adequate tools this might be best left to a gunsmith.

Unfortunately, although your revolver will be restored to use, and the repair may last a long time, it will probably eventually stretch some more and the problem will exist again. The same approaches to repair might work a second time, but some day, maybe way down the road, it will become a wall hanger. A sad fact of brass framed revolvers, and a good reason to buy all-steel models. I think the brass framed models remain popular because they are cheaper and most folks that own them don't shoot them enough to encounter the problem you've experienced.

[MBTcustom]

That's strange. I've shot brass framed 1851s till they were total rattle traps, and they still shot the lights out. One thing you might try is replacing your main spring.
If that doesn't do it, put caps on the nipples and snap them. Back off the nipples slightly till you get a good strike, then seat the nipples tightly and make a note of how many degrees rotation it takes to seat the nipple. If you are using standard nipples, they are 1/4-28 threads (otherwise it will be 6mmX.75), so one complete revolution = .035 (or .0295 if you are using the metric nipples (somebody check my math there?)). Therefore, if it takes 1/4 turn to take your nipples from hero to zero, then you need your hammer to strike .009 deeper (or .007 with the metric nipple).
Take your pistol apart and use a 1/2" drum to shave .009 off the inside surface of the hammer. This will allow it to strike deeper. Use calipers to measure, smoke the face of the hammer neck, reassemble and dry snap it a couple times. Lightly grind in the area witnessed till it pops caps every time (see picture), but don't go so far that you get nipple strikes.
152709
One other thing that might be noted is the condition of the nose of the hammer. If it's all chewed up, you need to build it back up with TIG and grind it back down to spec. I suspect this is what your problem is.
Here's one waiting for me to give it some TLC:
152710

[MBTcustom]

Something else I might mention about this revolver is that the frame does not get stretched. There is no top strap, so when fired the frame actually gets compressed while the rod going through the cylinder gets pulled forward (but seeing as how it's a steel rod secured to a brass frame, to say that it gets stretched either is a bit of a......"stretch"). The source of the wear is the rod getting pulled from it's seat in the frame, but more often than not, it's the little wedge or the slot that it goes through that gets peened out. However, this does not always impair function even when it gets really bad. My first pistol was an 1851 Confederate Navy brass framed open top. In highschool, I shot a few cylinders through that pistol every afternoon. When it was new, the wedge had to be drifted out with a brass punch, but by the time I retired that gun (more accurately, I loaned it to a friend and he allowed rust to retire it for me) the wedge could be easily pushed out with thumb pressure, and the barrel rattled on the frame pretty badly. Even so, the accuracy was astounding if you understood how to point shoot. I could shoot pop cans six for six at 25 yards.
Here's a picture of me 14 years old shooting that very pistol.
152728

[bedbugbilly]

Stretched or compressed . . . whatever terms you want to use . . . the brass recoil shield takes a beating over time. Usually the cylinder pin will loosen up . . . just one of the weak points of a brass frame open top.

[Omnivore]

Well you've said you replaced the mainspring and that there's not too much cylinder gap, so that leaves the hammer. It's either being impeded by poor fit in the frame and/or fouling, as described above, or it's jamming on something, also as described above, or the hammer nose is peened in too much, as described above.

It's easier than described, to find out if your hammer is touching the nipples. Watch very carefully, or feel the hammer, as you force the cylinder front-to-back. If the hammer moves at all, the nipples are touching it. If not they aren't. If they aren't, then you can start to unscrew a nipple to see how much clearence there is between hammer face and nipple - my experience has been that they're not necessarily all the same either.

A really bad cam on the hammer, or bad cam to bolt leg fit, could exaserbate an already impeded hammer also. As the hammer falls the cam must slide under the bolt leg and push it out of the way to re-set. Itallian replicas can have very soft steel in the cam, whereas it should be hardened steel. If the hammer nose is peened in, and the cam is also in bad shape, a new hammer is called for.

I had a Pietta Colt that was acting much as you describe, and the problem was a bad hammer-to-frame fit. The hammer has sharp edges, and so where it first comes into the frame cutout, it would often catch. That was made worse by the fact that the hammer was pushing over more to one side of the cutout. The gun would fire OK at first, but as any fouling accumulated in there, the hammer would become harder and harder to fit into the frame, so it started rub hard, and to misfire. My quick and dirty initial fix was to bevel the front surfaces on the hammer, so it slides into the frame easily, camming its way in. I now go straight in and chamfer a lot of the edges on a new gun, because there are a lot of sharp edges, and the both the hammer and hammer cutout in the frame are often sharp enough to cut you, on a new gun. Eventually I opened up the frame cutout all along on one side, and it fires very reliably now.

So you have some investigation to do, to find the real culprit, or culprits.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, something impeding the hammer fall definitely needs to be checked for. If the hammer has fallen many times on a scrap of cap, it might be embedded into the brass so much as to be hard to see.

I appreciate the view of those who consider the Remington cap and ball design superior to the Colt, although the grip is smaller than I like. But the greater strength of the Remington is nullified when a brass frame is used. It really beats me why Colt continued so long with the wedge system. The spidery-looking Lefaucheux pinfires, and open frame European cap and ball designs such as the Mariette were actually stronger, with a barrel which screwed onto a threaded axis pin.

[Swamp Fox]

Thanks for all the good advice. Unfortunately I'm still having no luck. There was a little bit of fouling built up where the hammer goes into the frame, so I cleaned it up real good with some ballistoll, but it didn't make a difference. The hammer is touching the nipples as I can push the hammer all the way forward then see the hammer move when I move the cylinder back.
I measured the cylinder to barrel gap at .014, which doesn't seem terrible.
The hammer face is somewhat worn, but still smooth, and as noted above is still hitting the nipples.
I will disassemble it tonight or tomorrow and double check for any cap fragments or worn linkage. Wondering if there is any way to strengthen the mainspring?

[Beagle333]

If there are no caps/fragments inside when you disassemble it, and you're pretty sure you've eliminated all but the mainspring...
VTI has new ones for $6.50

http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=70&cat=Pietta+1860+Army+1861+Navy

[Ballistics in Scotland]

But it doesn't look like I have much movement or gap to the forcing cone if I push the cylinder back. Anybody have any other idea on what to check or is it time to retire this gun?

Is it when the cylinder is pushed back that the hammer contacts the nipples? If so you could still be getting an inadequate strike when it is pushed forwards?

[Beagle333]

And one more thing about the nipples..... are they perfectly uniform all the way up the cone? As in... no mushrooming at the top? I have occasionally seen where a slightly mushroomed nipple will not let the cap seat 100% down on the nipple and the hammer has to push the cap all the way down and sometimes if you have a marginally weak strike anyway that will be enough to keep it from firing. That's why subsequent attempts at firing the cap DO work...... the first attempt seated the cap all the way and the second strike fires it. If you have any mushrooming of the nipple tips, you can just chuck the nipple in your drill and spin it against a fine stone or even some sandpaper on a block and true that cone back up.

You did say that you tried new nipples and have the same results though.... so, if the nipples aren't reaching when the cylinder is forward (as mentioned above), you can unwravel a little bit of electrical lamp cord and wind a single strand of that copper around the nipple about 5-7 wraps and screw the nipple back in and try snapping a few caps. That should raise it up more than your lost .014 and that'll let you know if it is the cylinder moving that is the problem. You can then use several methods to permanently lengthen the nipples, but a bit of wire is a quick test.

[Omnivore]

A .014" gap is pretty big. Also, the hand spring will push the cylinder all the way forward when the piece is cocked. If the nipples contact the hammer when the cylinder is all the way back, that means there's less than .014" gap between hammer nose and the nipple when the cyl is forward. Should still fire, I'd think. Cap fit problems are strongly indicated here, unless there is something impeding the hammer, or the mainspring is exceptionally light.

FYI, the Treso nipples and the Remington #10 cap represent THE perfect fit.

Anyway, I would definitely reduce the cylinder gap, just as a matter of principle. It isn't complicated.

PLEASE NOTE; You will find all the information you need right here;
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf

it addresses everything we've discussed and much more.

[Swamp Fox]

Success!
I finally got time to take everything apart again this weekend and found the culprit. Turns out there was a piece of cap under the hammer. It was on the bottom side of the frame, where it was impossible to find with the hammer in the frame. Even then I didn't see it until I was scraping all the fouling I could out of the channel, and saw it somewhat hammered into the frame as ballistics in Scotland said. Firing every cap now!

Now that I can shoot it again, my next project will probably be to reduce the cylinder gap. Is there a thread somewhere that addresses the procedure?

[Omnivore]

my next project will probably be to reduce the cylinder gap. Is there a thread somewhere that addresses the procedure?

Yes. Read everything here;
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf

Three to five thousandths is plenty of gap. You don't need anymore than three. Reducing the gap requires shortening the cylinder arbor, which will let the barrel come back farther. You may need to mount the barrel between centers on a lathe and turn back the shoulder that interfaces with the "water table" portion of the frame. Once your barrel and arbor are fit properly, I'm betting you'll need a wider wedge. Going from a gap of .015" to .005" I had to make a new wedge. That can be done from a piece of flat iron, a hacksaw and a file. Having a power grinder helps.