218bee vs 219 zipper or 25-20 vs 25-35

[andym79]

Hi guys as you may have read from my other post I am having a hard time pick between a model 94 in 219 zipper or in 25-35.

I have decided to let myself have a 94 chambered in 219 or 25-35 this birthday and a 92 chambered in 218 or 25-20 next birthday.

So I am now posing the question differently 218 vs 219 and 25-20 vs 25-35.

I shall have one in 22cal and one in 25 cal.

Help me decide!

Here are my thoughts, the 22cal will most likely be used with jacketed bullets and the 25 cal with cast. I am wondering if the zipper might be a bit overbore for a 55grain projectile (though some people shoot a 55 grainer in the 22-250 and 220 swift.

I am also wondering from my experience of shooting cast if better performance and accuracy might be achieved with the smaller cases, the powder fills more up, with less air and no need for fillers. My logic being I don't usually drive my cast any harder than 1800fps and usually between 1000-1400fps. Therfore a large case is kind of a waste and will only lead to more air inside each case or the need for fillers or slow powder (the last two are not my prefered choice).

I guess what I am saying is in my opinion the 92 case are more suited to low velocity cast and the 94 cases to medium velocity cast.

By that logic a 219 zipper and I appologise if anyone is happily shooting cast well with their zipper really doesn't seem like a suitable cartridge for shooting cast at all. Where as the 218 bee might do better with jacketed ammo but seems better suited to cast than the zipper.

Likewise the 25-20 is probably a more logical choice to shoot cast than the 25-35 though the difference is probably less marked in the 25 cal cases.

From what I have said a 219 zipper and a 25-20 seem like the right choice; but I have kind of wanted a 25-35 for a while and the bee has always appealed to me.

Is there any reason that the zipper couldn't be used with heavier/longer bullets if I specified a 1:12 twist rather than the more typical 1:14.

Sorry that this seems like ravings and I maybe making litlle sense. I have never struggled to make a decision like this before.

Am I wrong in assuming that 22cal cast is the hardest to master (the 22lr excepted)?

[ajjohns]

Bank on a few more birthdays and do them all?

[6pt-sika]

I did the 218 Bee in a Marlin 1894CL and it did ok with cast and jacketed . Did the 25-20 in another 1894CL as well as a circa 1902 Marlin 1894 . I shot cast and jacketed in the 25-20 CL with good or better results and only fired cast in the circa 1902 rifle with it having very satisfactory results .

I did the 219 Zipper in a circa 1959 Marlin 336SC and only shot jacketed (I also shot spitzer which turned it into a 2 shooter), the gun did okay when you take into account it's a lever action and not a bolt gun . I also had a Marlin 1893 in 25-36 Marlin which for all intents and purposes is the same thing as a 25-35 WIN anyway the 25-36 I had really liked the Lyman 257325 and 257312 . I also shot Hornady 117 RN in it with pretty nice reults .At the moment I do have a rather nice old German single shot thats Pre WWII in 6.5x52R which low and behold is nothing more then a 25-35 WIN and it shoots well enough with some old circa 1960's factory loads I just so happen to have .

[gnoahhh]

.25-35 in the 94, .218 in the 92 is what I would do.

[rr2241tx]

Of the choices, I'd go with the 218 and 25-20 pairing. The smaller case will be easier to load into your desired velocity range.

[clum553946]

25-20 and 25-35. You can shoot the same bullets in both. Same can be said for the 218 bee & 219 zipper, but the guns are probably more expensive & brass harder to come by. Another thought is do them all, but buying them in same caliber pairs (long range plan!)

[andym79]

25-20 and 25-35. You can shoot the same bullets in both. Same can be said for the 218 bee & 219 zipper, but the guns are probably more expensive & brass harder to come by. Another thought is do them all, but buying them in same caliber pairs (long range plan!)

Not a bad idea, if I have enough birthdays and cash it would be nice to have the whole collection:

92s 218, 25-20, 32-20 :smile:, 38-40:smile:, 44-40
94s 219, 25-35, 30-30 :smile:, 32-40, 38-55 :smile: I know there is the 32sp, but personally I still can't see the point its so similar to the 30-30 the 32-40 is a different animal!

[clum553946]

Looks like a good road map of desire! I hope you get to fulfill it! I love shooting the old Win levers & am addicted to them!

[joesig]

Am I wrong in assuming that 22cal cast is the hardest to master (the 22lr excepted)?

I would not say the 22 is hardest to master. It probably is the most picky. If the throat is good and you match the alloy to the chamber pressure, you will do fine. I was lazy and took the hard alloy/slow powder route.

[lobogunleather]

I have the .218 Bee in an old Winchester Model 43 bolt action and it is a very effective rifle on critters to the size of coyotes out to 150 yards or so. 46 grain JHP at around 2700FPS, relatively easy to load for, reasonably accurate for my purposes.

No experience with the .219 Zipper, but it is in another class entirely with considerably higher velocity and able to handle heavier bullets. But in a lever action rifle I don't see it being capable of extreme accuracy, so it is probably limited to about the same 150 yard range or so, and it provides no real capability for larger game. Certainly burning a lot more powder to pick up another couple hundred FPS.

My .25-20 is a 1914 vintage Winchester Model 92 rifle with open sights and vintage Lyman tang sight. I use it exclusively with cast bullets (65 to 85 grains) at moderate velocities. Accurate enough for small game to probably 100 yards, does that chore well with minimal destruction. I've taken grouse and rabbits with it several times and it would be my go-to rifle for turkeys.

The .25-35 is another class entirely. Capable of handling bullets up to 120 grains and plenty of power for deer or other medium game within reasonable ranges. Probably more versatile overall in that respect, as the .22 calibers and .25-20 are strictly small game or varmint cartridges.

My recommendation is to make your choices based on how you plan on using these rifles. For plinking, small game, casual target shooting the .218 and .25-20 should do just about anything you need. If you plan on adding in an occasional deer hunt the .25-35 would be the better choice. .219 Zipper doesn't really add much in the usefulness category. Anyone who expects any lever action rifle to make a tack-driving varminter at extended ranges will probably be disappointed.

A little careful thought and some realistic expectations should result in good choices.

[andym79]

Hi lobogunleather (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?33882-lobogunleather) thanks for the detailed reply, comments like these are the sort of thing I need to give this proper consideration.

There seems to be no love for the zipper! There seems to be a consensus that the old M94 just isn't good enough for the cartridge, combined with peep sights I guess there is an element of truth in that.

A pairing with a Marlin 336 and scope might make a better match, but then if your dead set on a 22 cal lever, the BLR in 223 with a decent scope would probably be the best rifle for accuracy!

Would most of you agree then that the 219 zipper is an accurate cartridge, but only a very skilled marksman can get the most of it in a 94 with aperture sights!

The tide of opinion and more importantly the versatility of the 25-35 seems to make more sense in the 94 option.

Still I seem to be a sucker for the odd, but is the zipper a step to far into the odd?

Is it true that Winchester only produced a few thousand 219 zipper model 64S and the zipper was half dead by 1941?

[douglasskid]

Loved the zipper, shoot a lot of 55 grain bullets in Marlin rifle, both jacketed and cast.

[andym79]

"A pairing with a Marlin 336 and scope might make a better match, but then if your dead set on a 22 cal lever, the BLR in 223 with a decent scope would probably be the best rifle for accuracy!"

Went out to the range for a while this morning with my 30-30; and at 100 yards, its a good rifle with a good barrel and shoots well with cast using NOEs 311041 mould and loads of H4227 or H4198.

When I did my part 3, 4 or 5 shots touched each over or overlapped at the 100 yards. When the wind kicked, the shots were separated by between a 1/4" and 3/8". When I didn't do my part however the shot were about 1/2" apart in a group 1-3" inches away from the centre.

Conclusion this 30-30 with a decent barrel in a humble M94 with peep sights and the right load can shoot better than I can, variation in the rifle accounts for at most 1" at 100 yards where as variation in the shooter anything from 1-4" over a sustained range session.

The comment above from myself coupled with the thoughts going through my mind this morning draw only one conclusion.

If the 30-30 shoots better than I then the 219 zipper definitely will, but to what avail, its a moot point!

If I had a lever with peep sights in 6mm ppc (yes I know its not rimmed (just say its a rimmed version)) would I do much better at 100 yards probably not, with a scope yes, but that true of all but the worst cartridges.

So why have a cartridge that definitely more accurate than the shooter can do and probably better than the rifle can achieve?

None I guess.

The 218 bee is probably the choice for a 22cal friendly rifle, less powder used, easier to form brass and more cast friendly in my opinion should I want to.

The decision I think is 25-35 in 94 and 218 in the 92. More than that is a bonus.

[andym79]

Hi guys short update, the 25-35 came 4 days ago and looks good hopefully shoots as well as it looks. Went to the range the day after Christmas and a guy offered me his Win94 in 219 zipper with 26 heavy round barrel for $350, told him okay we will discuss the details after new year.

Apparently he want to sell it to build himself a Marlin 336 in 219 zipper I guess more versatile than the Win94. One of his points was its not as good for rapid fire as the 336, having never shot a Marlin I could comment, but the 94 action is very poor fopr rapid fire compared withthe 92 and 86 that is for sure.

So I will be adding a Win94 in 219 Zipper as well, just a shame his doesn't have an octagonal barrel to match my other 94s.