7.65x53 1891 Argentine Mauser

[jeep421]

I am going to aquire a argentine mauser 1891 pretty soon. Any recommendations for load data I only have cast lee 185 grain .312 gas checked. My bore is very tight. The only powder I have is imr4895. Thanks

[alamogunr]

You've slugged the bore and haven't bought it yet?

[Scharfschuetze]

Good choice Jeep421 and welcome to the forum.

If indeed you have a tight bore (.311 or so), you won't be able to beat Lyman's (or equivalent) 314299 over 4759 powder. I use both LC Ought-Six cases modified and also Privi-Parizan cases. If your bore ends up larger, then NOE's 316299 boolit is the answer although I'm sure that your Lee 185 grain boolit will do just fine if you do have a .311 bore.

I've not tried 4895 in mine, but 4895 has a great reputation in 30 calibre cartridges of similar capacity to the 7.65 Argentine so you should be in good shape powder wise.

My 1891 (Loewe circa 1893) is virtually MOA all day long with my favorite load.

[jeep421]

How many grains should be the low end and do not exceed?

[scottfire1957]

How many grains should be the low end and do not exceed?


What do your reloading manuals list as min/max?

[jeep421]

Well I have a hornady book. I only lists jacketed loads. No cast data.

[Larry Gibson]

For many years I have had excellent results with the Lee C312-185-1R over most any flavor of 4895 including IMR4895 in numerous 7.65 Argentine M91 (currently have 3 of them) and M1909 Mausers.

These days mine are most often cast of COWWs + 2& tin or a mix of range lead I have (high antimony content) with lead a 70 - 30% and then 2% tin is added to that. The AC'd bullets have a BHN after 7- 10 days of 14 - 17 and when WQ'd they run around 22 for the COOW alloy and 18 for the RL alloy. The COWW alloy will drop from my older single cavity at .313 - .315 and of the RL alloy right at .313.

Most of my M91s also have "tight" barrels I guess from the reports mentioned in other threads. The ones I've slugged that have excellent bores all slug right at .312 +/-. I just lube and seat/crimp a Hornady GC on the COWW alloyed ones in a .314 H&I die in a Lyman 450. The RL alloy bullets are sized, lubed and GC'd in a .312 H&I die. I use Lar's 2500+ or NRA 50/50 lube with no leading and excellent accuracy.

I've found excellent accuracy with 4895 under the Lee bullet in the 27 - 30 gr range depending on flavor of 4895. I use a 3/4 gr Dacron filler over the powder. Best accuracy seems to be in the 1800 - 1900 fps range. I use factory Norma cases and formed cases from various brands and makes of 8x57 and 30-06 cases. I most often use WLR primers.

Larry Gibson

[jeep421]

For many years I have had excellent results with the Lee C312-185-1R over most any flavor of 4895 including IMR4895 in numerous 7.65 Argentine M91 (currently have 3 of them) and M1909 Mausers.

These days mine are most often cast of COWWs + 2& tin or a mix of range lead I have (high antimony content) with lead a 70 - 30% and then 2% tin is added to that. The AC'd bullets have a BHN after 7- 10 days of 14 - 17 and when WQ'd they run around 22 for the COOW alloy and 18 for the RL alloy. The COWW alloy will drop from my older single cavity at .313 - .315 and of the RL alloy right at .313.

Most of my M91s also have "tight" barrels I guess from the reports mentioned in other threads. The ones I've slugged that have excellent bores all slug right at .312 +/-. I just lube and seat/crimp a Hornady GC on the COWW alloyed ones in a .314 H&I die in a Lyman 450. The RL alloy bullets are sized, lubed and GC'd in a .312 H&I die. I use Lar's 2500+ or NRA 50/50 lube with no leading and excellent accuracy.

I've found excellent accuracy with 4895 under the Lee bullet in the 27 - 30 gr range depending on flavor of 4895. I use a 3/4 gr Dacron filler over the powder. Best accuracy seems to be in the 1800 - 1900 fps range. I use factory Norma cases and formed cases from various brands and makes of 8x57 and 30-06 cases. I most often use WLR primers.

Larry Gibson

Thanks for the info. It will come really handy. Do you have a do not exceed grain data. I am just wanting to make sure. I want to be on the safe side due to reports of pressures and these 2 lug small rings.

[runfiverun]

your fine.
you can run the 4895 up to 40 sum grains your shots will be all over the country side but the load will be safe.
stick to about 28 grains and a 1gr tuft of Dacron.
if the Dacron scares you just work in the 29-30gr area.
if however you see vertical stringing on the target then reduce the load back down and use the Dacron.

if in the future you find some 2400, 16-18grs under the lyman 314299 will produce groups like scharfscheutze shows. [or at least it will in mine too]
the 4895 and some Dacron load will make groups like that in my 308 but 2400 will shoot right on it's heels.

[flint45]

My two 1891 carbines shoot very well with the lee boolit. But I have not used 4895. 18.5 gr.2400 is what I have used.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the info. It will come really handy. Do you have a do not exceed grain data. I am just wanting to make sure. I want to be on the safe side due to reports of pressures and these 2 lug small rings.

As mentioned there will be no "danger" from pressure with 27 - 30 gr IMR4895 under that Lee bullet. The PMAP (CIP) for the 7.65 is 56,500 psi (transducer). Most milsurp and commercial (Norma, Hornady) run in the 53 - 56,000 psi as measured in one of my M91s using an Oehler M43. The psi of a 4895 load as suggested will be about 1/2 that much, entirely safe. You find the best accuracy in the range of 1800- 1900 fps using 27-30 gr IMR 4895 under that Lee 185 gr cast bullet because of the twist of the rifling. Your M91 should have a 1 in 9.8" twist but many just round that to a 10" twist. You can load above 30 gr IMR 4895 but very soon accuracy will begin to go south.....usually around 1900 - 1950 fps unless you are knowledgeable on how to get a higher velocity.

Larry Gibson

[Mytmousemalibu]

Great info guys! I need to get my 1891 out and do some load development and take it out sight seeing for 4 legged antler'd critters that we have a bunch of! I've already case formed a box of 06 brass to 7.65 but the most i've done with it is some bunny fart loads with .312 cast pistol bullets that I have yet to even shoot.

[alamogunr]

I've been following this thread closely after that silly question in Post #2. I'm going to have to get the 1891 Argentine Mauser out and start shooting it. The only reason I haven't is because I've been slow to order brass. Since I have uses for 30-06 brass, I don't want to use it to form 7.65 cases. I've had dies for a several months. I believe there is more good information in this thread than just about anywhere.

The reason I said my post was silly, I haven't slugged my Argie yet.

[runfiverun]

the argie is the one rifle I don't recommend you try to do a throat pound slug on.
you'll start looking for a 260gr boolit to fit in there.
I have a 225gr loverign design that is built around the argie throats and even it is not quite enough to fill all the room in there.
use the big nose on the 314 or the LEE to help with alignment, 304 is pretty close 305 is better.
let the parallel sided boolits run up into the throat and don't push them or they will try to rivet and distort causing you to lose accuracy.
another powder that works well in the argie cases is H-322 it demands a filler to shoot it's best however.

about 6 years ago littlegirl wrote up a nice post on the argie rounds and used 3 rifles to show different velocity's with different barrel lengths and the affects filler had on the group sizes and velocity variations.
Ken had asked her to do a work-up on the round and report back the results.
he didn't think she could do it on her own seeing as she was 13-14 at the time but she done the whole thing while I was off to work, and when I got home I helped her set-up the chronograph [she was scared of shooting a $300.00 chrono] and I let her do everything else.

[scottfire1957]

Well I have a hornady book. I only lists jacketed loads. No cast data.

My point is, you NEED more than one reloading manual, and cast bullet manualS if you're going to load you own cast bullets.

The guys here are good, but if you don't have a manual or manuals to double or triple check the information they give you, well..........

[alamogunr]

the argie is the one rifle I don't recommend you try to do a throat pound slug on.
you'll start looking for a 260gr boolit to fit in there.
I have a 225gr loverign design that is built around the argie throats and even it is not quite enough to fill all the room in there.
use the big nose on the 314 or the LEE to help with alignment, 304 is pretty close 305 is better.
let the parallel sided boolits run up into the throat and don't push them or they will try to rivet and distort causing you to lose accuracy.
another powder that works well in the argie cases is H-322 it demands a filler to shoot it's best however.

about 6 years ago littlegirl wrote up a nice post on the argie rounds and used 3 rifles to show different velocity's with different barrel lengths and the affects filler had on the group sizes and velocity variations.
Ken had asked her to do a work-up on the round and report back the results.
he didn't think she could do it on her own seeing as she was 13-14 at the time but she done the whole thing while I was off to work, and when I got home I helped her set-up the chronograph [she was scared of shooting a $300.00 chrono] and I let her do everything else.

OK! No pound cast. I have the NOE version of the 311299, 314299 and 316299. I'm guessing that you are recommending a 314. Not sure what is meant by "304" or "305".

Do you have a link to the write-up you mentioned? BTW I shot a sky screen support to my CED chrono a couple of days ago. Actually only grazed it. Need to cement a reinforcement so it doesn't break completely.

[Larry Gibson]

jeep421

Indeed the Lyman and NOE 314299 are excellent choices for the 7,65 Argentine if you are wanting a heavier bullet. However I believe you'll find the Lee C312-185-1R which you have to be a good bullet in your M91. Since it is already GC'd and sized at .312 give it a try with the IMR4895 loads recommended. If you've any questions regarding the Dacron filler there is a sticky and I explain it's use in post #4 or you can ask here or PM me. Be glad to help getting your Argentine Mauser back in action.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

304 or 305 is the diameter of the nose
the 314299 should have a body diameter of 313 to 314 and a nose diameter of 304 ish.
if you have the NOE versions they should pour out right close to that.
the lyman's have run all over the place recently, my older version makes 314 X 304 with ww alloy.

I don't know if I could find littlegirls thread or not, a search on the argie should bring up a lot of posts by Larry and probably myself.
they will all pretty much have the same information as this thread.

I recommend you get another manual also.
it will have a handful of loads for this round, it however will also have information for the 308 Winchester round and for cast loads that information is valid for the 7.65 case.

[alamogunr]

304 or 305 is the diameter of the nose
the 314299 should have a body diameter of 313 to 314 and a nose diameter of 304 ish.
if you have the NOE versions they should pour out right close to that.
the lyman's have run all over the place recently, my older version makes 314 X 304 with ww alloy.

I don't know if I could find littlegirls thread or not, a search on the argie should bring up a lot of posts by Larry and probably myself.
they will all pretty much have the same information as this thread.

I recommend you get another manual also.
it will have a handful of loads for this round, it however will also have information for the 308 Winchester round and for cast loads that information is valid for the 7.65 case.

Thanks for the information. I have not cast with the 314299 yet. Will do so soon. I just ordered the Lee .312-185-1R from Midsouth. We'll see how they perform.

As to manuals, jeep421 was the poster who only had the Hornady manual. I've got all the Lyman cast bullet manuals(First thru #4) plus regular Lyman 48 & 49 and several others. I'm not sure that any of the more recent manuals would be of use to me since most are either published by the jacketed bullet makers or the powder makers and concentrate on their respective products. Almost all of my reloading is at the lower to mid-range areas.

[jeep421]

Thanks for all the info guys. This is a heated topic but any good videos on how to use filller? I don't want to ring my chamber. I can't find any videos online.

[ShooterAZ]

Here is a link to "proper use of fillers" on this site. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers