Suggested BHN for 300 BO 150gr Boolit.

[ChevelleDave]

Hello, Just getting into the world of casting My own BOOLITS.

Was going to start with the LEE 150gr gas checked, powdercoated, looking to push it to 2000 FPS.

Will be using My AR with a AR Stoner SS heavy barrel, 1:8 twist 16".

I got a good stash of WW, pure lead, Linotype, all smelted into ingots, and some Rotometals superhard, and some Tin. Also have the LEE BHN tester.

Trying to mix up a batch with a known GTG BHN, to start with, so I'm not messing around wasting My time with something too soft for My first time.

I've read the Lyman cast bullet book. There I saw some recommendations of up to 21 BHN, read where alot of guys are casting straight Linotype, down to just a mix of WW/ PB.

I know alot of People say to cast with as soft as You can get away with, and I will work down, just want to start off with a known good BHN for starters.

Will also be slugging My barrel to check the bore, then size appropriately.

Hope that is enough info.

Lok forward to some suggestions.

Thanks, Dave.

[Scottyh]

I don't want to discourage you from your goal. But you have set the target very high for your first time at casting. I'm going to recommend that you use a alloy close to Lyaman#2, and read this thread. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208186-RPM-Threshold-barrel-twist-velocity-chart
I hope that helps
Scottyh

[2wheelDuke]

I have to agree that you're probably expecting a little too much velocity. I've run that boolit in the .300blk for a few years now, since I got into .300blk.

I worked up a load with Lil Gun that shot well and clocked around 1950fps. I was running my boolits fairly hard, and water dropping them.

I tried those same loads in a different .300blk gun and had some pretty ugly pressure signs. I haven't been able to get the range time to work loads up for the other guns yet.

When I was researching my issue, I found that my load was a good bit higher than the load somebody posted on .300blk talk for the same boolit.

[GhostHawk]

The faster you push them the harder they need to be.

Myself I prefer to use mostly range scrap with a little tin so I settle for around 1400 fps. But I am not trying to shoot 300 yards or run them through an AR.

[fredj338]

Agree, harder the better for 2000fps. I am playing with PC bullets in my 6.8 @ 1950-2000fps. So far, water dropped range scrap at 18bhn is working but accuracy is just so-so in early testing.

[ChevelleDave]

Yup, I stand corrected. When I posted 2000 FPS, I was thinking of what I have read for .223. My mistake.

I plan on casting for .223 down the road, and have been reading so much that I got too much swirling in My brain.

I am more thinking in the 1400-1500 FPS range. Not trying to go too hard too fast. I have Lil Gun on hand, have read it's a good powder to start out with.

Just looking to put together a good plinking round to start with. I've been reloading for a couple years now, just want to get into something that could make Me more self reliant in case there is another shortage. Plus in reading Mike Venturino's forward in the Lyman book, really piqued My interest in casting.

Scotty, thanks for the link, I will spend some time studying that article.

[2wheelDuke]

Here's a bit of load data that may be applicable.

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=81581

[runfiverun]

regular ww alloy will do 1500 just fine.
I'm using AA#9 and the rcbs 165 silh bullet [at about that velocity] and it's all the accuracy the rifle will give me.
if you think you need harder use the water pail.

[blikseme300]

My experience with Lil Gun was poor under CB's with blown primers and erratic cycling in my AR-15's. I tried a number of powders until I found that Reloder7 was the ticket under the Lee 150gn. Went all the way to compressed loads with 17.7gn but backed down to 17gn (<-use at own risk) as the alloy was soft and the seater marred the CB. No idea what the velocity is (gave up on using the Chrony and let Mr Gun tell me what works) but groups of 1.5MOA at 100 yards are common. Used air cooled COWW's sized to .310" and lubed with Tac#1. Even though the accuracy is good for hunting this design is poor IMHO based on my experience compared to a 30-30 using the RD 165. I now use the NOE 311-155 mold and it is as accurate as the Lee but is much better for use on hogs but not quite the same as the 30-30.

If you are converting brass be aware that there is significant differences of case wall thickness and this will cause higher pressures and blown primers. There are threads on this board covering this. Typically US made brass works but imports are hit and miss.

I like the 300blk in AR-15 and currently have 3 rifles in the safe but it runs out of steam too fast IMHO and am seriously looking into the 7.62x40 WT, 30HRT or .300 Reaper with the 7.62x40 WT my current favorite. I like my Marlin 30-30's but also like the AR-15 platform for hog hunting and would like to add energy to the CB to do the job better.

[ChevelleDave]

I'm just punching paper at 100 yards, not much of a hunter, but if that was to come up, I got a 30.06 that would be pressed into use.

I was playing around, and made up some 2:1 WW/PB, and some 3:1 WW/PB, cast a few test boolits, and checked the hardness on them. Got 13 and 13.4 BHN respectively. Just practicing, seeing how it goes.

So, I just threw both of those test batches in together, fluxed them, cast a few, let them sit for acouple days and last nite tested them for BHN, was 13.5. So, I have ten pounds of this metal, I'm thinking I will just add 5 pounds of WW to this, and cast some air dry and water drop some BOOLITS. Then I can BHN test them both for poops and giggles.

If I was to add some tin to help with fill out, how much would You add to it? I got 2 pounds of little chunks like You get from RotoMetals. Just throw in 2 or 3?

Thanks, Dave.

[osteodoc08]

I typically add 1-2% tin by weight. There is a member here that sells pewter ingots in 1-2 ounce bars and is stellar. The screen name escapes me right now. Perhaps another member can chime in.

Personally, i think you are over thinking this. Your 150gr cast boolit is just gonna be too heavy to reach 2000+fps. Id be looking in the 1700-1800 fps range. Harder alloy is needed for higher velocity. I'd try what you have and see how it goes.

Another (popular) option is to use the heavy boolits and run them subsonic and have some nice close range plinking rounds. Since velocity is down, the alloy can be a bit softer.

[runfiverun]

look harder alloy is NOT going to get you to a HIGHER VELOCITY.
I don't know where this baloney gets started but HIGH BHN AND HIGH VELOCITY ARE NOT INTERRELATED.
if they were I would not be pushing ww/soft alloy mixed together to 24-2500 fps in a 10 TWIST barrel.

I have access to a ton of linotype at about 1.25 a pound and I leave it sit right where it is because I don't need it.
neither do you guy's.
stop believing the wives tales and figure stuff out for yourselves. JEZUS.

[osteodoc08]

look harder alloy is NOT going to get you to a HIGHER VELOCITY.
I don't know where this baloney gets started but HIGH BHN AND HIGH VELOCITY ARE NOT INTERRELATED.
if they were I would not be pushing ww/soft alloy mixed together to 24-2500 fps in a 10 TWIST barrel.

I have access to a ton of linotype at about 1.25 a pound and I leave it sit right where it is because I don't need it.
neither do you guy's.
stop believing the wives tales and figure stuff out for yourselves. JEZUS.

R5R,

I was under the impression that as velocity climbed north of 2500+ that harder alloy was needed to avoid stripping/skidding, especially with faster twists such as the 1/7 and 1/8 we frequently see in our ARs (causing leading). I couldn't imagine pushing a 40-50gr boolit at near max in my 22-250.

Most of the Lyman manual uses straight Linotype as their test alloy for rifles IIRC (which may or may not mean a hill of beans).

Either way, your test results will encourage me to do more testing especially with softer alloys (thus saving more money).

Thanks for the advice/insight.

[ChevelleDave]

I typically add 1-2% tin by weight. There is a member here that sells pewter ingots in 1-2 ounce bars and is stellar. The screen name escapes me right now. Perhaps another member can chime in.

Personally, i think you are over thinking this. Your 150gr cast boolit is just gonna be too heavy to reach 2000+fps. Id be looking in the 1700-1800 fps range. Harder alloy is needed for higher velocity. I'd try what you have and see how it goes.

Another (popular) option is to use the heavy boolits and run them subsonic and have some nice close range plinking rounds. Since velocity is down, the alloy can be a bit softer.


If You look up above, I corrected Myself. I was thinking of the 55gr .223 FPS when I put down 2000 fps, meant more like 1400-1500 fps for the .30 cal.

Someday when I get around to casting for My BO Pistol, I'll do some subsonic.

[osteodoc08]

If You look up above, I corrected Myself. I was thinking of the 55gr .223 FPS when I put down 2000 fps, meant more like 1400-1500 fps for the .30 cal.

Someday when I get around to casting for My BO Pistol, I'll do some subsonic.

I'd really love to have a 300 BLK SBR. The awesome thing about this cartridge is that it can make top velocity by about 8-10". Perfect for SBR and having fun on the range.

[runfiverun]

well there's about 10 different way's to get there.
in my 308 I use [gasp] ww's and soft lead mixed 3 to 1 with about .75% tin total and I water drop right from the mold into a gallon sized metal pail.
in my 5.56 I use a 4/6/90 alloy and water drop once again the Tin retards the water dropping affects, but I do it so I can immediately weight sort and throw back the outside weights.
I push it to 2800 fps, the extra length of the SbSn chain in the alloy [from the Tin] is what does the fighting of distortion to the boolit as it finds the barrel.
I time it with imr-4895 making sure the boolit is in the barrel before it is accelerated.

powder peak pressure and where it hits affects alloy if you can time it so that the boolit is engraved and on it's way you can do nothing more than some damage to the nose.
if the design is proper then the nose is strong enough to take those acceleration forces, especially since it is supported by the barrel.[no where to go]

[ChevelleDave]

When You say 4/6/90, is that 4lbs WW, 6lbs soft lead, .90% tin?

So, for what I'm doing, just punching paper at 1400-1500 fps, I'm going to bring what I got in the pot to 3:1. Is adding 0.75% of tin a waste of tin, or would it be beneficial to a first time caster to help with fill out?

Thanks, Dave.

[runfiverun]

4/6/90 is how the alloy is laid out in percentages Tin is always first, then antimony,, then the lead content.
if copper or zinc or something else is in there it's generally placed at the back or notated.

adding the little bit of tin will help with fill out, good well filled out boolits is a product of mold temperature.
tin helps strengthen the alloy and does act as a flow agent to the alloy [to help mold fill out] so some is good.

I could go on a two post diatribe about how tin affects lead alloys and what raising or lowering it above or below certain points does to the final product.
just sticking with a tin content around 1% for normal cast boolit stuff is plenty to get the benefits without wasting it.

[ChevelleDave]

Cool, I will throw some tin in then.

Last time I was casting, I got My pot stabilized about 675, casting with My 2 hole Lee mold, I found I had to be very methodical.

Was surprised how much the pot temp, mold temp, speed, sprue size, all that played into it. Got to be fairly consistent, but was having a few issues with indentations on the ogive. But, I was having problems with the spout dripping, got that figured out mostly, got back in the rythm and got some pretty decent bullets.

Tonite I hope to get My 6 cavity mold cleaned and broke in. Got a lb of beeswax in the mail, gonna go at it with 2 molds to help with the timing, get the feel of it.

Thanks for the help, Dave.

[osteodoc08]

It definitely is a dance. No two molds seem to be exactly alike. They all exhibit personality and flare all their own.

[runfiverun]

and different molds like different things.
aluminum molds like to be run at about 425-f and mehanite at more in the 375 range.
you could turn up your pot temp a little more [700 or so seems to work well with a warmed up mold]
casting pace will also dictate how hot you keep the mold and a consistent rhythm helps immensely.
I fight to keep a consistent rhythm and keep a count in my head [some use a clock ticking] of everything from fill to fill again and how long I let the sprue cool before breaking it open.

I use a gloved hand to open the mold and return the hot sprue back to the pot immediately.
some don't like to return the sprue saying it adds some oxides back to the pot. [which it probably does]
but I like keeping the pot at as near the same fill as possible and as close to the same temp as possible.
adding 4oz's of room temp alloy to a LEE 20 lb pot will drop the pot temp down about 25-f this doesn't help consistent weights at all.
I pre-heat my ingots on top of the pot, and keep the ingots to about 1/2 the depth of the rcbs ingot molds.
by on top of the pot I mean on top of a steel plate 3/8" thick] I cut a notch in the corner for ingots and sprues to go through.
it also to add some mass to the pot to help keep temps more stable.
my 40 lb magma pots also have a steel top [1/2" thick]

[ChevelleDave]

R5R, are You ladling or bottom pouring? I looked up Magma, They got some cool looking machines.

I got a PID I ordered off of Ebay, with a kiln thermocouple coming that I'm going to build a temp control out of. I did find the temp of the LEE Pro Pot would swing wildly as the pot level went down. I was tossing the sprues back in occasionally, as I waited between pours. I just didn't have enough lead to keep the pot full as I went. I was just messing around, and didn't want to just start tossing whatever in the pot, till I had a basic idea of what I was doing. If I'm just gonna use WW, and Pb 3:1, with a little Tin, I'm just going to make a big batch so it'll all be consistent.

I didn't separate the COWW and the SOWW, so My batch of WW ingots is not really consistent. Plus, I can add the tin in better I suppose.

I was thinking, I got an old Lyman pot I scored at a garage sale, if I ever got going that fast, I could pre-heat lead in that and ladle it into the Pro Pot as I needed.

I've had a problem with the Lee pro pot dripping, so I heated it up, cleaned it really well, and took the rod out. It's cooling right now. Is there anything specific I should be looking for? I'm hoping it was just a piece of crud in there. The directions mention that, so I figure once it cools off I can look into it and see what's going on, hopefully.

I got one of those laser temp readers from HF for My BD, I'll have to try it out on the molds to try to learn what they like.


I got My 6 cavity mold cleaned today, also cleaned the 2 cavity. I used degreaser, and a acid brush, got all the cavities and the sprue plate really well, wiped them down with a clean rag. I'll hit them with some Beeswax when I'm heating them up to use. Any other advice as to breaking them in? I've read a lot of conflicting info as to if smoking them is needed or not. Seems like the newer LEE molds don't need it like the older molds did, opinions?

Thanks, Dave.

[runfiverun]

well the clip on to stick-on ratio I had for ww's was always about 3 to 1 anyway and I started piling up the stick-on weights over time so I just started adding them back in at about their appropriate amounts.
I didn't know it was the right thing to do back then I just wanted to use all the lead I had.

I generally bottom pour now days I still can and do ladle cast the larger stuff, anything over 400grs or so usually does much better with a ladle.

you might want to lap that lee stem into the spout it will fit tighter and that generally stops the dribbling for a while anyway.
most guy's eventually just end up clamping a set of vise grips on the stem to push down and help seal it with weight.

if you have the lyman pot I would get it out and give it a try they are a lot better quality than the LEE pots are.
if you are looking for a cool way to set things up to bottom pour, you might think about just mounting one pot up over the edge of the other.
then you can just dump hot lead from one right into the other and use the top one to melt alloy in, to keep the bottom one full and consistent.
I bought a 10 lb lee to keep my 20 lber full like that, then littlegirl took it apart so she could cast some soft lead in the 10lb pot and I just left it like that.
maybe one day i'll get another one and do it again.

I'm not a fan of smoking molds.
if the boolits stick I just lap the mold and things calm right down.
I also have a break in plan for my new molds where I give them 4-5 good full hot to cold heat cycles through some short casting runs, this allows the mold to build up a patina in the cavity's and for everything to work themselves out.
then I make a fairly long casting run with the mold and start working with the boolits themselves.
this also let's me start to judge how the mold likes to be poured in and identify any other issues I need to address.

[ChevelleDave]

Well, I did it. Ended up just doing up 100lbs, figured I had 1lb of Tin, 1% makes easy math to 100lbs.:bigsmyl2:

But, I must admit, by the time I weighed out 75lbs of WW's ,and 25lbs of Pb, 1lb of tin, I said screw it and tossed the 5lb bar of Superhard in.[smilie=1:

I know My WW are alittle soft, so I just went for it.

According to the calculator, this will make it 12.2 BHN, which I bet it will come out at more like 11.5 BHN.

I'll cast up a couple Boolits later and see what really happened.

[ChevelleDave]

Also, out of 106lb of material, I got .86lb of slag. Does that mean anything, or is slag % irrelevant?

[runfiverun]

eh it's usually some oxides and trash just coming out of the mix.
a lot of stuff gets trapped under the surface of lead and working it over a couple of times will generally release it.

I don't get too worked up about stuff in the alloy unless it affects my casting or I get inclusions into my boolits.
I clean my lead about 3 times when smelting, I then flux everything again 1-2 times when I mix up my big batches of alloy.
that way I don't have to clean the alloy in my casting pots very often and can concentrate on making boolits.

[ChevelleDave]

Yeah, I flux at least several times when smelting WW, and PB the first time.

I fluxed twice Today, while mixing.

Going to get some lapping compound tomorrow and lap the nozzle on My pot, also going to rig up a spring to help it shut off better. Do it now while it's apart, hopefully be done with it.

[popper]

You might want to drop some shot in the alloy (As) so you can WD if needed. IIRC the NOE AK boolit gets a lot of users in BO. Got invited on a hog hunt today so maybe I'll see if the 145gr FN PB I'm using works good. I'll take the 308 also, friend wants to try it. Don't know if I can make the movie and reload some before tomorrow morning.

[ChevelleDave]

It's too late to do that. I think it'll be good, it has to now.:bigsmyl2:

[runfiverun]

you'll be fine.
the arsenic is a precipitator for the antimony to harden the boolit from water dropping, if you want the final bhn without the arsenic you just have to wait longer.
that's just how it works.
you could substitute some sulpher for the arsenic if your impatient, but that doesn't usually go over well with the neighbors or the wife for some reason.

popper if it's the same one you sent me a sample of it should work pretty well on those eatin sized piggy's.
I got josh from ACE to cut me a mold similar to that one and if I get some time this winter i'll get it out to the range along with yours.
I need to do a major re-model of the reloading room or something, I just got too much stuff in there right now.

[popper]

Got a 200# one with a Texas heart shot, but 40sw cast, not BO. They sure run fast. Missed first 2 shots about 20', right rump on the third. Had a big doe walk under the stand, next morning an 8 pt & another doe. Fun watching.

[GooseGestapo]

fwiw;
Ive been tinkering with a .300blk I made up from used parts I aquired along the way.
Most significantly, barrel is an R-Guns, 1/8" 16" WITH MID LENGTH GAS PORT. This has had to be drilled out to .120" to get adequate gassing to function with 125grn supersonic -Lock open after last shot from magazine.
I mostly wanted to be able to shoot cast as I was largely put out of commission by the panic of '08 and '11. But I did have cast boolits!
IT's been a challenge to get the gun to work with cast. My last batch of 155 grn PtdGC's were a bit soft, ( some left over 50/50 ww/pb lubed with home made lube (Bens red, TERRIBLE,!!).
I stripped the lube, re lubed with SPG, then tumbled lubed. Better, but...
i've gotten best accuracy with ww/+2% leadfree solder added;
lastly, using Acc1680 @ ~19.0grn for ~1,950fps. However, I'm OUT. Can't find any except 1lb online. So, I worked up a load that will function, but not blow primers like H110 @ 16.5grn. (Works, but is TOO HOT!). Hod. Lil'Gun, H4227, H4198, BlueDot, #2400, no luck. Not enough gas volumn.
I found that Acc5744 works at 17.5grn, but is running 2,050fps and is too much for my soft alloy. Same bullets shot 2" from a 1943 SMLE over 30.0grn of H4895 this afternoon @ 1,700fps, slower twist. .300blk shot like a foot groups at 100yds. I did get a ~5" group at 50yds as I was blowin them out, to get rid of them (I only have a bit over 100 cases made, so didn't want them "occupying valuable space..."

I hope you've found some useful information in my ramble...

[bigjake]

I understand how too hard of alloy can be bad. I can shatter this hard alloy I have with a chisel and hammer. but, I can also see how soft alloy will strip down the barrel. So, my question is, how do I make my hard alloy tough like copper or brass, it is hard as well as tough, it doesn't shatter and it doesn't strip.

[popper]

Cut with equal amount of pure, replace tin with 2% Cu, WD and you have essentially a 36 BHN tough and hard solid boolit. Don't hunt with it unless for Rhinos. I should have stepped back 100 and tried it on that dead piggie but the rifle was 1/2 mile away. Actually I should have taken the rifle, I could have hit him several times with the AR.

[bigjake]

how do you alloy copper to a lead alloy? WD?

[popper]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further

[ChevelleDave]

So, here are the results of My first real casting session.

http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/71metbu/DAVE-PC/Reloading/Bullet%20Casting/20151120_172222_zpskxkyoynp.jpg (http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/71metbu/DAVE-PC/Reloading/Bullet%20Casting/20151120_172222_zpskxkyoynp.jpg)
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/71metbu/DAVE-PC/Reloading/Bullet%20Casting/20151120_172214_zpsqzprndax.jpg (http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/71metbu/DAVE-PC/Reloading/Bullet%20Casting/20151120_172214_zpsqzprndax.jpg)
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/71metbu/DAVE-PC/Reloading/Bullet%20Casting/20151120_172152_zpssuwoxjzj.jpg (http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/71metbu/DAVE-PC/Reloading/Bullet%20Casting/20151120_172152_zpssuwoxjzj.jpg)
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/71metbu/DAVE-PC/Reloading/Bullet%20Casting/20151120_172140_zps1cuveiqh.jpg (http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/71metbu/DAVE-PC/Reloading/Bullet%20Casting/20151120_172140_zps1cuveiqh.jpg)

I was running one 6 cavity mold, pretty hot, the pot was 715*, and I was just waiting long enough for the sprue to cool. I had a bucket on the ground, with a towel on the bottom, and water dropped them.

I'd appreciate any feedback.

I actually cast twice this much, but I remelted the whole first batch rather then sort them. Learned a lot in that first run, definitely like it hotter.

[ChevelleDave]

fwiw;
Ive been tinkering with a .300blk I made up from used parts I aquired along the way.
Most significantly, barrel is an R-Guns, 1/8" 16" WITH MID LENGTH GAS PORT. This has had to be drilled out to .120" to get adequate gassing to function with 125grn supersonic -Lock open after last shot from magazine.
I mostly wanted to be able to shoot cast as I was largely put out of commission by the panic of '08 and '11. But I did have cast boolits!
IT's been a challenge to get the gun to work with cast. My last batch of 155 grn PtdGC's were a bit soft, ( some left over 50/50 ww/pb lubed with home made lube (Bens red, TERRIBLE,!!).
I stripped the lube, re lubed with SPG, then tumbled lubed. Better, but...
i've gotten best accuracy with ww/+2% leadfree solder added;
lastly, using Acc1680 @ ~19.0grn for ~1,950fps. However, I'm OUT. Can't find any except 1lb online. So, I worked up a load that will function, but not blow primers like H110 @ 16.5grn. (Works, but is TOO HOT!). Hod. Lil'Gun, H4227, H4198, BlueDot, #2400, no luck. Not enough gas volumn.
I found that Acc5744 works at 17.5grn, but is running 2,050fps and is too much for my soft alloy. Same bullets shot 2" from a 1943 SMLE over 30.0grn of H4895 this afternoon @ 1,700fps, slower twist. .300blk shot like a foot groups at 100yds. I did get a ~5" group at 50yds as I was blowin them out, to get rid of them (I only have a bit over 100 cases made, so didn't want them "occupying valuable space..."

I hope you've found some useful information in my ramble...

I did, and I appreciate any input.

Just getting to the point where I need to decide on a powder. I got W296, 1680, and Lil' Gun on hand.

I should add that I will be powder coating, and gas checking these.

[ChevelleDave]

I was able to test some of the Boolits Today, after water dropping them, they have a BHN of 17.9. I guess the Superhard did it's job.:shock:

[runfiverun]

water dropping does the work.
you will turn a 3% antimony alloy into an 18 bhn alloy after a couple of weeks of waiting.

not precipitation hardening them [air cooling] will yield a bhn more in the 11 range.

if you take them and heat soak them for an hour in a 410-F oven then dump them into a pail of very cold water I'd bet you get a bhn more in the 28-30 range.

adding to or reducing the Tin content will also vary the outcome and the final bhn.

I like Tin in my smaller boolits combined with a higher antimony content.
in my 30 cal stuff I cut ww alloy down with soft lead and use the water pail.
there is a balance of toughness/malleability/internal strength, and powder timing that must be found for the best results in function, speed and accuracy.

[Blammer]

better size them before they age, otherwise, get out the gorilla arm!