.221 Askins

[deltaenterprizes]

I am working on something similar to the.221 Askins, a reloadable 22LR.
Askins had a similar idea and used 5.56 Velo Dog brass, which is almost impossible to find now a days.
I am using .25ACP brass sized to a straight walled case with a rim that will hold a 22 cal bullet.
I am using 22 cal pellets with a primer to replicate 22 Colibri Ammo to start, then I will use a small amount of powder to get 22 short and maybe long rifle velocities.
The primer pocket and bullet occupy case capacity that the 22LR does not.
An adapter was made from a piece of 22LR barrel the dimensions of a.410 shell to fit a .410 bolt action I have.
Initial tests have been positive so the next step is to rebarrel a bolt action 22 and convert the bolt to center fire.

[Landy]

Can you form them in one pass thru a FL die or does forming take special dies and steps?

[deltaenterprizes]

I made the OD .250", so it would be easy to just drill and ream a hole, but an intermediate size is needed.
The .250 die has a sharp corner and shaves a small ring of brass from the solid part of the head of the case.
the primer pocket and flash hole shrink and need to opened up with a drill and primer pocket uniformer.
I used a small 1/2 ton arbor press and made the dies from grade 5 bolts, a 1 ton would better, I needed a cheater bar with the 1/2 ton press.
I plan to make the rims the same size as a 22LR to match the bolt face so I may have to make an extractor groove, the smaller rim will help feeding in a multi shot firearm.

[Landy]

Still, many other wildcats and, especially, some obsolete rounds are worse forming challenges; and they, often being redundant, serve little clear purpose.

The last seven years, though, have shown us that a good centerfire .22 substitute would serve a clear purpose. The little rimfire is just a tough act to follow, but your round has real potential.

That chamber adapter was a clever way to do a quick and easy first test.

I'll certainly look forward to reading about your and your cartridge's progress.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've got several pounds weight of WW Super-X rimfire cases, which were never loaded, bought on the internet for making .22CF jackets. They are something of a mystery, for they are an inch in length and yet are definitely .22LR diameter, not Magnum. I think they may have been intended for .22LR shotshells.

A Large Rifle primer slides easily about two-thirds of the way down the inside, and looks like it would go down to the head and lodge tightly against the head. I would use pistol primers, of course. You would need a fairly powerful firing-pin strike, to work through a extra layer of brass, and a metal collar, superglued in place or crimped like the old inside primed rounds, to stop the anvil being driven out of the primer. But it should work at pressure which would split the rim when used as a rimfire.

I make the internal diameter at the mouth .211in., which would probably be workable with the .216in. heel of the CBE mould for the .297/.230.

Some kind of die with a tubular plunger and eye protection would be needed, in case of igniting a primer while pressing it in. But I don't believe that would happen. I wouldn't remove unfired centrefire primers with the sizing die and decapping pin, as some do, but they see to get away with it. Perfection, possibly, would be to neck it slightly for .204 bullets, or swage them up to around .212in. for a barrel of that groove diameter.

I don't see why this couldn't be done with fired .22LR cases, although these are shorter. If I were doing this I would make a die, or adapt the primer seating die, to squash the hollow out of the rimfire rim. That would eliminate any variation in headspacing produced by the rimfire firing-pin indentation or swelling into its hole or the ejector slot.

Remember, if anybody makes this work, you heard it here first.

[Char-Gar]

My memory tells me the 22 Hornet was developed by using 22 Velo Dog cases. So it should not be a great task to recreate Askin's round. Which by the way ended his career in competition shooting as the officials thought he was trying to get around the rules and Askins took umbrage at their ruling.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It could be that the Velo Dog case had a role in bullet development, but it was introduced by Galand in Paris in 1894. The Hornet uses (probably in strengthened form) the case of the .22 WCF, which was on the market before that date, and I think from the introduction of the Winchester Single Shot in 1885.

[Bent Ramrod]

The first .22 Hornet softpoint bullets were Velo-Dog bullets, turned upside down and reswaged so the exposed lead at the base became the soft point.

I believe Fiocchi still makes 5.5 mm Velo-Dog ammunition. I got a couple boxes from J&G in Prescott, AZ eons ago. I think the shell is the basis for the Cooper Centerfire Magnum rounds, and is practically the equivalent of the .22 Maynard Extra Long.

There was a guy on the old Shooter's site who had developed something he called the .22 Epperson Cricket. (It sticks in my mind that his name was Epperson:-P.) Anyway, the thing that was interesting was that he was able to make the forming and loading dies, and cut the rifle chamber, with a couple of standard chucking reamers. The result was a .25 Auto shell bottlenecked to .22. This, to my mind, would be a much less strenuous rework of the .25 Auto for pretty much the same effect: a "reloadable" .22 Long Rifle equivalent. Can't remember the size of the reamers.

[bearcove]

Why not a 22 Hornet or K-Hornet. You can load it as slow as you want?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The first .22 Hornet softpoint bullets were Velo-Dog bullets, turned upside down and reswaged so the exposed lead at the base became the soft point.

I believe Fiocchi still makes 5.5 mm Velo-Dog ammunition. I got a couple boxes from J&G in Prescott, AZ eons ago. I think the shell is the basis for the Cooper Centerfire Magnum rounds, and is practically the equivalent of the .22 Maynard Extra Long.

There was a guy on the old Shooter's site who had developed something he called the .22 Epperson Cricket. (It sticks in my mind that his name was Epperson:-P.) Anyway, the thing that was interesting was that he was able to make the forming and loading dies, and cut the rifle chamber, with a couple of standard chucking reamers. The result was a .25 Auto shell bottlenecked to .22. This, to my mind, would be a much less strenuous rework of the .25 Auto for pretty much the same effect: a "reloadable" .22 Long Rifle equivalent. Can't remember the size of the reamers.

Epperson had the reamers ground, and I think they would be 7mm. for the case body, possibly with separate neck reamers of 6.5mm. for the case and ¼in. for the sizing die, which he made from a ⅞ UNF bolt. Others have made similar cartridges, mostly to put more performance in tiny pocket pistols, which are seldom reliable with the .22 rimfires.

I think the Cooper round would have been identical to the .22 WRM if it hadn't needed more thickness of brass in the neck for case life. As it is, it is close enough to work through most .2WRM magazines, but it is intermediate in diameters between the WRM and the Velo Dog.

Early in their history there were centrefire versions of the .22 Long and Long Rifle, but neither caught on, no doubt from cost, at a time when there weren't the smokeless powders to give superior performance anyway. The same might have applied to the Maynard Extra Long, That was just a lengthened version of the ordinary rimfires, with the heel bullet. The larger-diameter, inside lubricated round which was latter lengthened to give the .22WRM was the Winchester Rimfire.

I always think it is a great pity that the WRF didn't become the standard .22 rimfire round. It could surely have been developed to give superior accuracy to any heel bulleted round, although it never was.

[jmorris]

If a thread ever needed photos, it's this one.

[deltaenterprizes]

I have read about and I have seen pictures of the Epperson Cricket. I want a straight walled case for ease of reloading, bottle neck cartridges, especially one that small would be a real pain!

[pacomdiver]

I was tinkering with a cutdown 5.7 case a couple months ago to use up some of the 40g lead 223s my dad cast back in the 60's that are still in my bullet cabinet.

I also was tinkering with a 5.7 parent case and ended up with basically a baby 300 blackout. im making a chamber insert for my handirifle to test it out and will fireform the brass to the insert

it uses common 5.7 brass and a common bullet size that's was always on the shelves during the buying panic of 2012, so id call that a win-win, maybe try some cast in it too

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have read about and I have seen pictures of the Epperson Cricket. I want a straight walled case for ease of reloading, bottle neck cartridges, especially one that small would be a real pain!

It would be rather low pressure bottle-necked case, and neck sizing would surely be all you would need for several firings.

If you want to rechamber an existing .22, it has to be a .22. But there are one or two appealing options if you are planning a rifle from scratch, which would be a lot easier to use with cast bullets. One is simply a rifle load of the .32ACP, for which cases will probably be available and cheap as long as any cases are. Another is a full-length or shortened version of the .270 REN, which is what you get by fireforming the .22 Hornet to a straight case.

[bcp]

IIRC, a couple of Hornet wildcats made to use in rechambered 22 rimfire revolvers were the 224 Harvey K-Chuck and the 22 Long Snapper.

There was also a very small rimless cartridge called the 22 JGR.

22JGR article here, P. 27.

www.gunsmagazine.com/1960issues/G0160.pdf

Bruce

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Not to mention the factory .22 Jet. But the Jet produced problems with cylinder lockup and gas-cutting of the topstrap, and didn't last long. (It remains, at least in Improved form, an excellent cartridge for the small Martini rifle.) I don't know how small the Long Snapper was, but anything comparable in performance to the Jet would surely give the same problems in a revolver.

General Hatcher, in his "Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers", reports good performance in the Luger with the 9mm. or 7.65mm. case necked down to .22. Of course that dodges the cylinder gap problem.

Jmorris asked for pictures. Here is what I think is about as good as a cast-bullet rifle substitute for the rimfire as any, the .255 Jeffery, which I made with shortened .25-20 dies for my Army and Navy rook rifle. That is an unaltered .25-20 case on the left.

.152929

[deltaenterprizes]

I have converted a bolt from what looks like a Glenfield action to center fire and fitted a junk Ruger 10/22 barrel to the receiver.
Next part is making the chamber and head spaceing and doing some test firing!

[Willbird]

My memory tells me the 22 Hornet was developed by using 22 Velo Dog cases. So it should not be a great task to recreate Askin's round. Which by the way ended his career in competition shooting as the officials thought he was trying to get around the rules and Askins took umbrage at their ruling.

The 22 Hornet is an evolution of the 22 WCF....the 22 WCF used black powder and a .228 bullet.

[deltaenterprizes]

I have had a set back. I converted a Marlin bolt to center fire and chambered and mounted a junk Ruger 22 barrel to the action. The problem is that a part is missing from the trigger mechanism which I believe is the sear and there is no marking on the receiver to identify the make and model.
It is similar to a Marlin model 25 but the parts will not interchange.
The bore is good on the model 25 and uses the same magazine as the other action, the bolt is similar but will not fit because the cocking lug is wider.
I have a couple of junk falling block actions one that I think is a 32 rimfire with a bad bore that should readily accept a 22 liner and be easy to convert to center fire.
The cold weather has made my projects come to a halt for a little while.

[deltaenterprizes]

The action I am working on now is a Hopkins & Allen in 32 rimfire, it is an octagon barrel and the bore is like a sewer pipe. The barrel is held on by a sling swivel on the bottom of the receiver. I am waiting on a 10/22 barrel from a member here that I can turn down to fit and then make the falling block into center fire, it came from the factory drilled for both. If my efforts are productive I will order a 22 liner and make the original barrel into 22 cal to shoot the 22Askins, if not it may turn into a 22LR or a 32 S&W long.

[deltaenterprizes]

I picked up a barrel blank from a member here so when I get time I will do some more work.

[deltaenterprizes]

Duplicate

[jmorris]

Jmorris asked for pictures. Here is what I think is about..

Not sure how I missed it back then but I did and thanks. What is your load data using cast/j words?

[deltaenterprizes]

Not sure how I missed it back then but I did and thanks. What is your load data using cast/j words?

I have not gotten that far yet. I have only shot primed cases with a 22 cal pellet, no powder, similar to Aguila 22 Colibri ammo.
After pulling bullets from 22LR ammo and weighing the powder I found the charge weight to be 1gr of either Bullseye or WW 231, both powders were used. I would use 1/2gr to start with 40 gr bullet pulled from 22LR ammo. I have a bunch of ammo that was submerged during Hurricane Katrina and Ihave pulled the bullets, reclaimed the powder and plan to use the cases to make 223 bullets.
The reduced charge is due to reduced internal case capacity be cause of the primer pocket and the bullet being seated inside the case.
I think slower burning powder like Unique would work better and allow a larger charge weight that would easier to handle.

[nvreloader]

There are several 22 LR reloadable Wildcat cases out there,
Sauiber forum is a good starting/checking place,
for any small calibers.

I have designed and built a Wildcat reloadable, 22 LR,
called the XST Weasel in 17,20 & 22 calibers from the Hornet brass,
total case length is .600", has a .200" long neck, with a .330" long case body,
this case has a max case capacity of 5.60 grs, H20.

Using several different powders,
a 35gr bullet is pushed to over 1900 fps, from 18" bbl,
1.5 grs BE gives just under 1500 fps, 35gr,
1.5 grs BE gives just over 1350 fps, 45gr,
and most loads are 40-50% efficient.

I sure wish I could find mold in the 25-30 gr range,
then I would have a complete system.

Tia,
Don

[ironhead7544]

The 22 Flea is a 32 Auto necked to 22 cal, IIRC.

[deltaenterprizes]

I wich I could find more info on the .221 Askins but Pachmeyer Gun Works that did the conversion is not around anymore !

[Artful]

My memory tells me the 22 Hornet was developed by using 22 Velo Dog cases. So it should not be a great task to recreate Askin's round. Which by the way ended his career in competition shooting as the officials thought he was trying to get around the rules and Askins took umbrage at their ruling.

Nope, no relation between 22 velo dog and 22 hornet.
Only way to make velo dog is in a lathe or other expensive techniques.

And he was trying to get around the rules, but in truth it was because the rule makers couldn't think outside the box when they wrote them.

[Artful]

I wich I could find more info on the .221 Askins but Pachmeyer Gun Works that did the conversion is not around anymore !
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins1.jpg
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins2.jpg
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins3.jpg
http://bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm

http://www.colt22.com/askins.html

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/4/17/askins-hot-rod/

http://casualshooter.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-221-askins.html



Before World War II, Col. Charles Askins won the National Championship using, among others, a Colt .22 pistol converted to fire a custom centerfire round based on the French Velo-Dog revolver round.

"In 1937, while preparing for the National Matches, I developed the .221 Askins. This was a .22 caliber automatic which fired a .22 centerfire ctg. The NRA rules in '37 stipulated that "any centerfire caliber" could be fired in the Nationals. At that time the only useable centerfire cal was limited to the revolvers. You could fire the .32 S&W long which was the smallest caliber and one yet accurate enough to compete with. I concluded if I could develop a .22 centerfire I'd have the boys over a barrel."

"The .221 Askins was the 5.5 Velo-Dog ctg shortened in length to exactly the .22 long rifle casing; the bullet was the standard .22 long rifle leaden slug at 40 grains. The Velo-Dog was designed to be fired in a French revolver; it had a rimmed casing. My gunsmith and I ran every case through the lathe and reduced the diameter of the rim to the same specs as the .22 long rifle rimfire shell."

"I had Frank Pachmayr alter the .22 Colt Woodsman to fire the centerfire ctg. This was not too difficult. He simply countersunk the face of the bolt to take the slightly thicker rim of the 5.5 ctg. He also redesigned the extractor to handle the new ctg. Changing the firing pin to strike center and not on the rim was no great chore."

"The pistol performed very reliably. There were no more jams than with the .22 rimfire and the accuracy was very good. I have forgotten what powder charge I used now but it was about 1-1/2 grains Bullseye. The biggest problem was saving empties. I had to erect a canvas sheeting to act as a baffle."

"I won the All-Around championship of the United States in 1937. In this match you had to fire once over the NM Course with the .22 rimfire, once over with the centerfire (everyone but me shot a .38 revolver) and once over the course with the .45 auto. The .221 Askins accounted for my winning."

"It also caused a storm of controversy! Word got all over Camp Perry about the pistol and those jazbos who were most likely to beat me howled the loudest. I got word before the Orton Match that my gun would be protested not because it was a .22 caliber (remember the NRA rules said, in those days, "any centerfire caliber") but because the rear sight was behind the hammer. I got wind of this and ran into Port Clinton and had an auto mechanic move the rear sight forward on the slide and simply solder it in place. If you get this gun you will see the somewhat crude job he did."

"The pistol really upset C.B. Lister and old Gen Reckord. They got the Board of Directors together, those who were at Perry, and they discussed barring my pistol somehow. But they could not quite decide how the rule book could be changed on such short notice. So I fired the highly controversial .221 Askins and won the All-Around Championship."

"The year following, let me assure you, the rules had been changed to read ".32 caliber and larger." It has read that way ever since!"

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=verdana]Ol' Charlie wasn't real consistent in his stories. There is one version in which he said Border Patrol brass pressured him not to shoot a gun where the equipment was more important than the shooter, and, as best I recall "I threw the gun in the ash can. It lies rusting in my gun cabinet to this day."

http://manlyexcellence.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18977&sid=7b00f6610f1c6f9d61013ecae7a2f810

[deltaenterprizes]

Thanks, Artful! I wonder how they modified the the magazine to function.
Making brass is time consuming, once I get something working I look at making tooling to streamline the process.

[1989toddm]

Nope, no relation between 22 velo dog and 22 hornet.
Only way to make velo dog is in a lathe or other expensive techniques.

And he was trying to get around the rules, but in truth it was because the rule makers couldn't think outside the box when they wrote them.

There is a company in San Diego that converts .22 Hornet into .22CCM which is essentially .22 Velo Dog.
https://www.google.com/search?q=schroeder+bullets+website&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#istate=kp:xpd
Give him a call and tell him what you would like, get his take on it. Warning, he will talk your leg off!

[Artful]

Thanks, Artful! I wonder how they modified the the magazine to function.

Making brass is time consuming, once I get something working I look at making tooling to streamline the process.

If you reread it, you will see that they modified the cartridge to fit the 22LR magazine - IE shortened it and reshaped the rim to be 22LR diameter.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/rush2830/Velodog_cartridge.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/rush2830/media/Velodog_cartridge.jpg.html)
from left to right, the .22 LR, the .22 Win Mag, and the 5.5 Velo Dog


A better view

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rntH9iUT3Xw/VZwSv9tqzuI/AAAAAAAABvU/UtLdI4wOuH0/s1600/from%2BL%2B22-327%252C%2B22%2BVD%252C%2B22%2Brf%2Bmag%2B22%2Bhor net.JPG
From L 22-327, 22 Velo Dog, 22 RF mag & 22 Hornet

[Artful]

There is a company in San Diego that converts .22 Hornet into .22CCM which is essentially .22 Velo Dog.
Interesting - Thanks for posting

.22 CCM / .22 Cooper Centerfire Magnum (Accurate Loading Guide #2) Reloading Data
http://www.loaddata.com/images/database/22%20CCM.gif
The .22 CCM can be thought of as a reloadable .22 WMR. Its performance actually places it midway between the .22 WMR and the .22 Hornet. The maximum loads shown do not exceed the 48,500 C.U.P. limit established by Cooper Arms.

Looks quite a bit snappier than the 221 Askins or 5.5 Velo Dog

Read more:http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=4751#ixzz42tJfQwC2

[1989toddm]

Not to hijack, but just throw this out there..if y'all know of someone with a 22 ccm reamer that would be available to rent, let me know please. [emoji2]

[deltaenterprizes]

There are a couple companies that rent them, 4D and Clymer are 2 I can remember!

[deltaenterprizes]

Thanks 1989toddm, I will give him a call!

[Chev. William]

Here is the Current CIP drawing for the '5.76 Velo-Dog' cartridge:
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page3.pdf

Along with:Ammoguide Interactive (AI) .22LR case Drawing http://ammoguide.com/gfx/ctgs/diag/sae/126.gif,
the AI .22WRF case drawing http://ammoguide.com/gfx/ctgs/diag/sae/752.gif,
and AI .22WMR case Drawing http://ammoguide.com/gfx/ctgs/diag/sae/124.gif.

I guess the 5.5 caliber Velo-Dog version is not listed by CIP any more?

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

222257 This is a drawing of both the 'parent' 5.5 Velo Dog and the .221 Askins derived from it and are based upon both Col. Askins comments as Quoted by others and upon information contained in "Textbook of Firearms Investigation, Identification and Evidence" by Major Julian S. Hatcher and Published by Small Arms Technical Publishing Company, copyrighted 1935.

I believe both cartridges used 'small Pistol Boxer Primers.

The 5.5 Velo Dog used a Jacketed 45 Grain bullet of .48" long, overall Cartridge length of 1.35" and Muzzle Velocity from 2" barrel of 760fps with Muzzle energy of 56 ft. lbs.

The .221 Askins used a Cast Lead 40 grain bullet, overall cartridge length of .995", case length of .613" (same as contemporary .22LR Rimfire) and loaded to best Target use velocities that cycled the Colt 'Woodsman' semi-automatic Target pistol that was modified to utilize the Cartridge.

The drawing was made using AutoCAD 2000 software and converted into a PDF file via CutePDF software.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Today "Ammoguide Interactive" added the .221 Askins, including a Case Drawing, to their Cartridge Master Database.

Also, today they added its 'parent'; the 5,5 Velodog cartridge, including a Case drawing.

These 1930s cartridges are part of the History of wildcat development.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Arrested development work due to July-August Hot and Humid Weather Here making work in my Patio 'Reloading shop' too uncomfortable (Sweating Too much in the Daytime and Too many biting bugs in the Nighttime).
I am sure eventually the Weather will Moderate and I will get back into reloading again.

Chev. William

[Willbird]

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins1.jpg
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins2.jpg
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins3.jpg
http://bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm

http://www.colt22.com/askins.html

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/4/17/askins-hot-rod/

http://casualshooter.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-221-askins.html



[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=verdana]Ol' Charlie wasn't real consistent in his stories. There is one version in which he said Border Patrol brass pressured him not to shoot a gun where the equipment was more important than the shooter, and, as best I recall "I threw the gun in the ash can. It lies rusting in my gun cabinet to this day."

http://manlyexcellence.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18977&sid=7b00f6610f1c6f9d61013ecae7a2f810

The funny thing is that I have shot "2700" matches with Jim Lenardson who won the Camp Perry Pistol national matches a handfull of times. The 2700 course is slow, timed, and rapid fire for each of the 3 guns, 22, center fire, and 45...most folks just use 45 for both center fire and 45 now. Well plenty of times I saw Jim shoot better with the 45 than the 22...the 22 was a model 52 smith with Eley ammo...I have seen them go well under an inch from a machine rest at 50 yards.

Just a funny side note....:-). Askins was a character to put it nicely ;-).

[Chev. William]

September whether has continued uncomfortable for Outside work in my Patio 'reloading shop' but I have had some progress:
1. I received Five PT&G Blank die bodies pilot drilled 3/8" through.
Combining these with the Redding 'TiN coated' sizing Bushings I bought earlier will give me swaging dies to take .25ACP cases down to .22LR case diameters.

2. I bought off Ebay a 'takeoff' Ruger MKI Barrel and a Ruger MKI 'broken' bolt assembly. The Bolt assembly had a Worn and sheared firing pin retaining pin and a broken Recoil spring assembly, both of which should be Easy replacements.
This gives me 'models' to measure for possible modifications or replacement machining.

3. I ordered a pair of 3/4" ID Drill bushings to use as ring gauges to measure channels in the bolt body. They should arrive this week.

4. I have possession of the Ruger MKII .22 pistol so now have physical things to 'play with' in contemplating a conversion project.

5. An Ebay Purchase gave me a Beretta .25ACP Magazine and it actually fits the Ruger Magazine well; but, of course, is too short to function and the feed lips are at a different angle.
I wonder if a Ruger 22/45 Pistol handle would match better in feed angle?
A call to my Local Gun Shop stopped that idea as the 22/45 uses the same magazine as the 22 auto Pistol, with the same steep angle feed lips.

6. Further thinking on this idea will need to be done before any metal is cut for a conversion.
Both the Bolt face and the Bolt firing pin channel would need modifications.
The firing pin would need modification or replacement.
To use the .221 Askins case design, even modified by using a .25ACP as the parent case, will require some chamber modifications and magazine modifications.

Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

Looking forward to seeing your advancement in this project!

[Chev. William]

Pondering things:
I wonder if a change in cartridge designation should be considered due to the change in 'parent cases' from thick rimed 5.5 Velo dog to thinner rimed .25ACP or 5.7x28mm?

I wonder how much Time would it take to machine a 'Ruger .22LR Auto Pistol Barrel Tenon from scratch?

I wonder if it would be useful to convert a MKi Bolt to CF?

I Wonder if the MKIV bolt is stronger in design than the MKI?

I Wonder how difficult it will be to reform Beretta .25ACP Magazine feed Lips to feed in the Ruger?
(Assuming two magazines welded together to make the longer Body required.)

I Wonder if a Ruger Magazine follower would work in a Beretta Modified Magazine?

I Wonder if the Beretta Magazine follower would work to feed in a Ruger?

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Pondering things:
I wonder if a change in cartridge designation should be considered due to the change in 'parent cases' from thick rimed 5.5 Velo dog to thinner rimed .25ACP or 5.7x28mm?

My current thinking is that is should be changed or modified to reflect the different case parent source as they would NOT be directly interchangeable.
As to What change, i am still in quandary.

I wonder how much Time would it take to machine a 'Ruger .22LR Auto Pistol Barrel Tenon from scratch?

I am Still researching this question.

I wonder if it would be useful to convert a MKi Bolt to CF?

I Wonder if the MKIV bolt is stronger in design than the MKI?

to date it seems they are equal in design strengths as they seem to be almost the same in dimensions, material, and heat treatment hardness.

I Wonder how difficult it will be to reform Beretta .25ACP Magazine feed Lips to feed in the Ruger?
(Assuming two magazines welded together to make the longer Body required.)

I am still researching this question. Littlle Information found yet but may be feasible with some custom tooling (form tool and then Anneal and reharden after forming).

I Wonder if a Ruger Magazine follower would work in a Beretta Modified Magazine?

Still Unknown.

I Wonder if the Beretta Magazine follower would work to feed in a Ruger?

Still Unknown.

Chev. William

So far no luck with EDM shops; one did not answer The phone and the second was too busy to take on the project but did give me a referral to another shop which might, i still have not made contact with this third shop.

Also, some Progress and some setbacks on making Trim tooling for the reformed cases. I need to find and purchase Carbide Replaceable Tip Cutoff tool to fit my friends Shop Lathe as HSS tool is machined by my Drill Blank partially Completed mandrel. Drill Blank was chosen for longevity of the finished custom mandrels.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

This is my minor contribution to the thread, a photo of the .22 Ladybug Repeater, with a .22 LR. The LBR is almost, but not quite identical to the 221 Askins, though arrived at differently and with very different intentions...

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/LBR.JPG

[cas]

I opened this thread fully expecting to see this photo. lol

https://photos.imageevent.com/cas6969/shmisc/websize/22%20Pokey.png


Not mine of course.

Though I do own a Long Snapper.

https://photos.imageevent.com/cas6969/shmisc/22lineupWEB.jpg

[NoZombies]

I opened this thread fully expecting to see this photo. lol

https://photos.imageevent.com/cas6969/shmisc/websize/22%20Pokey.png


Not mine of course.

Though I do own a Long Snapper.

https://photos.imageevent.com/cas6969/shmisc/22lineupWEB.jpg

I've got some long snapper dies, and if I could find a reamer to borrow or rent, I'd probably have a long snapper revolver... But I digress...

[cas]

Dave Clements did mine many years ago, but as I recall he'd borrowed it himself. I know the owners name, but have no contact info.

[Chev. William]

Cas,
Your photo of the .22 Long bottle neck made from .25ACP case is a very interesting solution to reloadable .22 question. necking down the case to grip the ~.22" diameter Bullet is viable and is done enough so Pacific Tool and Gauge does list chamber reamers available for several version of necked down pistol cases to .22".

The photo of the 'Snapper' standing beside a .22 Hornet looks like it is a hornet case shortened and necked to give a stronger .22 Cartridge by getting lower on the case to form a slightly thicker , and more robust, neck and shoulder. Is this what the ".22 Long Snapper" is derived from/for?

For others interested, you might contact PT&G about the dimension involved.

Chev. William

[cas]

Yes the Long Snapper is a 22 Hornet case. There is also a "standard" short version of the Snapper, though I've never seen one and have only run into on person who has in person. I think the Long is more "common", if you can even use that word.

I know zero about the .22-25ACP other than that the .17-25ACP may be more 'common". ;)

[mactool]

Another solution could be .22 hornet converted to 5.45x18 and instead of 5.45 then use a standard .22 bullet

[Chev. William]

Ammoguide Interactive lists the .22 Epperson Cricket/.22 Pokey as a .222 bullet in a necked down .25ACP case.
The only major difference is neck length.
"The most famous user of this caliber would be Dr. Paul Kopsch who loaded this caliber with his KTW bullets for his wife who had a custom pistol in .22 Pokey caliber." --Ammoguide Interactive in write-up for .22 Cricket.

Chev. William

[cas]

That's a .22 Pokey above. Don't know how I forgot that... since it's the photo file name. lmao

[Drm50]

You would think that gun companies would jump on a reloadable 22cf dupe for 22rf. The tooling that
would be required would be small. Revolvers from S&W and Ruger would only have to have cylinders
reamed for new CF case. Getting a company to draw brass would be a bigger problem.

[Chev. William]

Sarcastically Posted:
What? Impact/Endanger their .22LR Tooling Investments?

Laughing!!!!

Now then, I think it would be slightly Less Expensive To test and develop .25ACP "Rifle" cartridge Loadings. Making a test Barrel 24 inches long to fit the "Universal Test Receiver should not be overly expensive when most other Calibers test with that length barrel.

It is Quite feasible to develop the .25ACP to work effectively in longer Barrels. after all the .22 Short, .22Long, and .22 Long Rifle 'work' in that environment and the case length of the .22 Long rifle and the .25ACP are comparable.

The original reason John browning developed the cartridge was to better the Feed from columnar Magazines which was poor for the .22LR at the time.

Chev. William

[cas]

Revolvers from S&W and Ruger would only have to have cylinders
reamed for new CF case.

Mmmm.. are you talking new production guns? Then sure. Otherwise you're looking at rimfire to centerfire conversions, and that costs. I can't see that taking off as a factory item. Your market would be very small, for handloaders (because what non handloader is going to buy expensive ammo that duplicates cheap ammo?) and even then, only handloaders that like oddball stuff.
Your only hope for guns would be a limited run from someone like Lipsey's, and I sure don't see Ruger going anywhere near a non SAAMI cartridge.

[Chev. William]

"Standard cartridge" includes the .25ACP/6,35 Browning; which is currently factory Optimized in a 6 inch test Barrel.

Ruger Might Be interested in a limited run of 8 shot Single Action in the small 'Single Six' frame, or perhaps a 10 shot in the Larger 'Blackhawk' Frame.

Obviously i would prefer cylinders with 'enclosed Rims and of long cylinder length to allow "wildcatting to fit CF .25 Stevens equivalent, the .25ALS/6,35x28.6mmSR of 1.125" case length and Up to 1.4" in a "Single Six", or about 1.6" in a "Blackhawk".

But this may be getting somewhat far afield for a ".221 Askins" Thread.

As to the 'Askins'; I find that the .25ACP is relatively easy to swage down to about .250" body and web diameter, and it results in a case that is about the correct length as formed to make the 'Askins' Cartridge with Inside lube bullets of about .222"-.224" diameter.
Of course the Rim is starting out 'thin' compared to what Col. Askins had to start with in the 5,5 Velodog case; so the chambering is closer, and easier to modify, to .22LR than the 'velodog' derived case was.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

The Recently purchased Ruger MKII Pistol looks like it will get converted to .25ACP sooner rather than later as John Taylor of Taylor machine gave me an estimate that is within my Budget range to machine and fit the barrel.

John also offered to look at the bolt and give me an estimate in converting it to CF and the Larger rime diameter of the .25ACP case.

I still have my older "pre-MKI" Ruger Pistol that I can test the CF .22 Ladybug-Repeater cartridge in. It is currently fitted with a roughly 6" "Bull Target Barrel" and adjustable rear sight. This is the Pistol I formerly had used in my Military reserve Training with Grade 7 PTL Blanks and a Blank Firing Adapter; that was designed to stop any slug or debris from exiting to the front.

The front of the BFA had a circle of 6 roughly .110 diameter holes on a !/2 diameter circle through about 1/2 inch section of Alloy Steel with a space about 1/2 inch long between muzzle of barrel and rear face of the drilled Alloy Steel front face when installed on the about 4-1/2" original pistol barrel.

I did fire one .22LR round into the BFA as a 'Proof Test'; which was captured without any damage to barrel or BFA, but did have a 'distinctive sound' so I knew the design was good enough to prevent 'repeat accidental discharges' with some safety margin.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I would think a Flat Face seating punch that is about the same diameter as the Primer would work to seat it in a .22LR case.
Further, i think it might be 'prudent' to add a short piece of Thick walled tubing to the stack to support the anvil for firing the Primer later.
The bore of the thick wall tube would act as a 'flash hole' of a normal CF cartridge case.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

My Conversion of a Ruger Standard Auto .22LR Pistol to .25ACP is mostly done!
John Taylor of Taylor Machine in WA did the machine work on both the Barrel and the Bolt Modifications for a total work cost of $432.00 including finishing it in matching Blue to my receiver.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/Ruger%2025ACP%20Standard%20Auto%20MKII%208%20inch% 20Barrel/1132a89e-68c0-4733-b5f3-1cc6f8507482_zpsfax2euw1.jpg
The Modified Bolt Face. Note the enlarged Rim rebate to fit the .25ACP rim and the Centered round firing pin tip in the new Bored firing pin central position below the original Ruger rectangular firing pin tip channel. the 'lump above the channel is the Ruger recoil assembly forward tip and 'half moon' guide/stop. The Extractor works without modification. for reference the bolt assembly is slightly less than 3/4" diameter as it slides snugly into a .750" ID Drill Bushing I bought to use as a Ring Gauge.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/Ruger%2025ACP%20Standard%20Auto%20MKII%208%20inch% 20Barrel/dea93ba0-c689-49c1-94b9-47faab8563de_zpsjmpo81nu.jpg
The top view of the Bolt with recoil assembly removed to show the new firing pin in its channel. Just visible is the 'Trumpet' shaped transition form rectangular cross section to the round section tip going into the new centered port and the old tip channel for the stock Ruger firing pin.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/Ruger%2025ACP%20Standard%20Auto%20MKII%208%20inch% 20Barrel/689ba1d1-360a-40e6-b683-ccdf682b8b0a_zpsysgn9g92.jpg
Left side of Modified MKII pistol with its new 8-1/8" Barrel. The 'white' bare metal band on the muzzle is where I turned off the Muzzle threads. I was informed that threaded Muzzles are Now Forbidden in California due to new legislation by the Democrat Controlled State, County, and Local Governments. Sad State of affairs now.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/Ruger%2025ACP%20Standard%20Auto%20MKII%208%20inch% 20Barrel/0d25132f-0c8d-444d-92ee-414db2a33622_zpsn4jgp6ay.jpg
Right side of Modified MKII pistol with its 8-1/8" long Barrel. Currently it is still a 'Single Shot Auto Eject Pistol'; as i do not yet have magazines to fit its grip frame and feed .25ACP cartridges.

I have Purchased an adjustable rear sight to replace the original fixed rear sight, but it is yet to be installed.
To date only John Taylor has fired a round through my converted Action, using his grip frame under my Receiver/Bolt/Barrel combination. I hope to get to an Indoor range soon to do some 'single shot' shooting myself.

These Photos were taken by my Special Effects business owner Friend with a Camera that has a "Macro" Photo Capability.

Chev William

[Chev. William]

I have been 'pondering' on using .25ACP cases to make a more modern, or updated, version of the .221 Atkins and I believe it is a reasonable idea.
- The rim diameter and thickness is closer to .22LR than that of the 5.5 Velodog Col. Atkins used as the 'parent case.
- I know the .25ACP can be swaged down to .250 body diameter reasonably. I have done it using Drill Bushing derived Dies, and the .25ACP extractor clearance cut makes removing displaced brass 'rings' almost easy.
- The rim could be turned down in diameter to match .22LR if desired, but a center fire conversion of a 22LR bolt is relatively painless with suitable tooling and opening it to accept the ACP rim would be trivial.

Something for further Thought I believe.

Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

I made a little progress on my efforts to make some reloadable 22LR!
I bought a 3 cavity 22 cal 37gr mold from a member here and cast about 150 boolits!
Sizing and lubricating is a challenge, I had to use tweezers to put hem in and take them out of the Die!
Sure can make a bunch of them from a pound of lead!

[Chev. William]

I took My Converted Ruger MKII pistol to a "Range Day" on a Wet, Cold Breezy Midday Thursday, Feb. 14th, and fired about 150 rounds of Factory FMJ .25ACP through it in 'Single Shot' mode over about 4 hours of Shivering.

But I DID Have FUN!

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Winter Continues here with intermittent Wet, Cold, Windy days interspersed with Damp, Cool, Sunny days.
Thankfully, no Freezing to date here; but there have been Slides and mud flows in areas hit by wildfires in the last two Years.
Too Cold and wet to work in my outdoor reloading 'shop' (my
back Patio).

Chev. Wiliam

[nekshot]

Now that is beyond "neat" in my book. I wish I knew just alittle bit of what John Taylor knows! Those pistols never enticed me but that is absolutely smashing! You will enjoy that rig for a long time.

[Chev. William]

In March, I took another 'Range day' and fired another box of Factory .25ACP through my pistol with No Failures of any kind again.
This is with a custom Parallel wall Chamber of .2795" diameter, NOT a typical Tapered Chamber of the auto pistol in general.

Spring is coming; so eventually I will be back out "under the tent"; on my Back Patio and in my 'Reloading Shop' again.

Chev. William

[Willbird]

I have seen them blow out the "blem" 25 acp bullets pretty cheap, I was not finding any barrel blanks of the proper bore size for them anywhere.

Bill

[Chev. William]

I have seen them blow out the "blem" 25 acp bullets pretty cheap, I was not finding any barrel blanks of the proper bore size for them anywhere.

Bill

Bill,
Did you check Lothar Walther dot Com website?
Or Track Of The Wolfe dot com website?
Lothar Walther lists 'Pistol Barrel Blanks of 23.8 inch Length in .25 Auto/6,35 Browning bore/Groove dimensions, plus I believe they have shorter ones for specific pistol replacement use.
Cr-mo Steel or Stainless steel alloys are listed.

Chev. William

[Willbird]

Bill,
Did you check Lothar Walther dot Com website?
Or Track Of The Wolfe dot com website?
Lothar Walther lists 'Pistol Barrel Blanks of 23.8 inch Length in .25 Auto/6,35 Browning bore/Groove dimensions, plus I believe they have shorter ones for specific pistol replacement use.
Cr-mo Steel or Stainless steel alloys are listed.

Chev. William

I had just looked at the normal run of the mill barrel makers and found nothing. Good that there are some sources avail :-).

Bill

[Chev. William]

It is Easter Eve tonight. This last week I took a used ~24" inch long Marlin "A1" barrel to my Gunsmith to be 'slugged' and bore/groove diameters recorded. It was marked 'Microgroove' so it will be interesting to see the Actual measured diameters.

I am thinking of possibly using this take off barrel to make a .221 Atkins test barrel to try my reformed .25ACP cases swaged down to .250" diameter.
I think it will be possible to machine an 'adapter bushing' to fit this barrel to either a 1915 Favorite or a Model 44 series action for my purposes.

The Favorite would need to be ~.663" diameter by ~1.5" plus long and the Marlin barrel is ~.630" for its' tenon and ~.740" just forward if the tenon cut.

This also means I will need to order a Finish Chamber Reamer again.

Happy Easter Everyone!
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

RE: "This last week I took a used ~24" inch long Marlin "A1" barrel to my Gunsmith to be 'slugged' and bore/groove diameters recorded. It was marked 'Microgroove' so it will be interesting to see the Actual measured diameters."

BAH! It won't Be usable! The bore has a Rusty area along one 'side', possibly from sitting in a damp area horizontal and condensing some moisture. That rust area Strips off any slug land/groove markings. The slug comes out rough all over its bore size Body.

The last Month and some of June, my gunsmith is working a Movie shoot on location so nothing is getting done on my 'low bucks Projects' at this time.

I may have enough set aside to pay for EDM cutting on my Donor Magazines to make up some for my .25ACP Ruger Standard Auto MKII conversion.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I took the time my gunsmith is on the Location Filming project to get reacquainted with Scale Model Railroading in 2.5" to the Foot Scale and my local 'Live Steam' Model railroad club, The Los Angeles Live Steamers Railroad Museum, which has its Tracks in Griffith Park, Los Angeles, CA.
My equipment involved is a 2.5" Scaled Uintah Railway late series Flat Car (originals built about 1926) that was 9 feet wide by 32 feet long with a 3'2" deck height above Rail-head.
I had originally built the car back in 1975 and made it with working scaled brake rigging hooked to a hand brake Wheel via a length of small chain.
The current project was to add a 'scale' brake pipe to the car to eventually install working Air Brakes on it. This tube is currently 1/4" Copper tubing and its eventual 'end fittings will be adapted to 3/8 Steel Tubing threaded for 1/8 NPT fittings.

In addition it has a LALSRM sized Copper tube and fittings train air Brakes Carry through Pipe installed. This is a 3/16" copper tube with 'Clippard MQC' end fittings with internal Valves.
Conveniently, the LALSRM fittings are on the Left side of the Coupler as you face the end of the Car and my later Scaled brakes connections will be on the Right side of the Coupler, like full size practice.

Then I had my Professional Artist Niece paint the scaled 'reporting marks' on the car.

And the following weekend (Memorial Day Weekend) for running and Display.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

My gunsmith is back in the Shop after his time on TWO movie projects now. but his backlog of work is much deeper also.
We reviewed my projects and he said he will attempt to get my .25ACP and .25ALR 8-shot cylinders done as soon as he can.
The other projects include three Rifle projects, one is about 4 years in the que now, a Winchester USGI Carbine receiver to be fitted for .45 Win. Mag. with a Rifle Length Barrel as a Straight Pull manual action without any gas system.
A second one is another Carbine receiver, a Fulton Armory one, to be fitted to a Match Grade .308" 26" long blank and also to be finished as a Straight Pull Manual action.
These are desired to do testing with to see just what level of accuracy I can achieve shooting them as single shot magazine fed rifles.

Another rifle is a Stevens "Model 44" action conversion to CF to shoot CF versions of .25ACP, .25ALR, .25MACP, .25ALS, and perhaps .25ALRM wildcat cartridges.
This Action has a tight fitting Breech block that /locks up tight against the two shoulders in the rear of the Breech Block slot so wil have extra Breech Block support for these cartridges. one of the barrels fitted is a Stevens .25 Stevens one and another is a custom LW based barrel chambered for the .25ALR wildcat for comparison testing. This one is waiting for my gunsmith to finish fitting the New CF firing pin as he left it slightly long on both ends to allow for final fitting.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

This last Tuesday I got a chance to use some free machine time at my Friend's Special Effects Shop to start machining on some (three) Blank die bodies.

These Bodies are now bored through 3/8" diameter, with the 'Handle' end further bored 1-1/2" deep to 15/32" diameter and the 'Threaded" end bored 7/16" deep to 31/64" diameter preparatory to reaming for some Hornady or Redding neck sizing Hardened and coated Bushings which I intend to use as 'Sizing/Swaging' dies to reform .25ACP cases to .221 Atkins and .22 Ladybug/.22 Ladybug-Repeater diameters.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Sadly, little or no work done since my last post as my Special Effects shop owning friend has been busy with movie and commercial work and also with health issues (he has been diagnosed as having prostate cancer).
I am hoping some 'shop time' may open up soon.

My gunsmith did return three modified cylinders and my Reamers.

But now California has put MORE Problems in my way to enjoying my Firearms with the 'New Ammunition Purchase Rules'.
No useful Mail Order of ammunition, Background check to buy ammo., and my local guns shop does not carry much .25ACP nor any .32 Colt (Long or Short), .32 S&W (Long or Short), .38 Colt, or .41 Colt ammo as the Inventory taxes are too much for him to carry on such 'low demand' ammo.

To add to the problem, my local reloading store has cut open hours from 7 day s a week to 3 days a week (Friday, Saturday, and Sunday only).

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Grumble, Grumble, Gnash, and OH Rot!
California Ammo Purchase Rules have made my Shooting much less Pleasurable.
I cannot buy .32 COLT, Short or Long, nor .41 COLT ammo locally.
I can get some .25ACP Ammo intermittently.
44-40 is still available but only loaded with .427 Jacketed bullets, my two 1873 Winchesters prefer .432 LEAD bullets!
My 44-40 Cattleman SA Revolver will 'sort of' shoot the .427" bullets but accuracy suffers.
.38 COLT DA ammo? "Huh?"

.32 S&W and .32 S&W Long seem to be intermittently available, although .32H&R Magnum and .327 Fed Mag seem to be available.
.327 FED MAG is not suitable for my custom revolver though.

Sad in California.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

A little thinking on the .221 Askins as a Modern Variation on the Center Fire .22 Long Rifle Replacement issues.

a plus is that a suitable case can be made from .25ACP brass by swaging it down to about .250" body diameter, which is relatively easy as any 'displaced' metal forms a 'ring' that is usually sheared off when it reaches the Extractor Clearance Cut of the .25ACP case.

The resulting 'rimmed' case will accept .224" diameter bullets as 'inside lubed'; which is cleaner to carry than the 'outside lubed' .22LR ammo.

The CF case is stronger and will allow repeated hand loading, which is a saving over the rim fire ammo.

Also, it will permit some 'hot rodding' of hand loads to optimize performance in a particular weapon.

Lead bullets or Jacketed bullets may be used.

Much room for future development is present in this cartridge.

Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

I made a dozen 22 Ladybug Improved cases yesterday in anticipation of a project rifle arriving in the near future!
Really tricky working on such small parts on a 14x40 lathe!
I was using a collet block with a .250 collet but next time I will use my collet chuck for faster parts change.

[Chev. William]

I gather that you are making .246" diameter cases for the 'Ladybug' designs; Bravo for your efforts!

I am 'Stuck' at .250" diameter as I have not had access to my friends shop machine tools to make more swaging die bodies as he has been very busy (Very Good for him) with movie and series work. he has even been using hired help on the projects as the workload exceeded his individual time available.

on another subject:
the First Rain of this Fall/Winter/Spring rainy season fell last night or early this morning here, leaving the area wet and dripping when I got up to let my two dogs out for their morning 'toilet'.
The Dawn was sharp and sudden as thjer ewere no clouds to give a predawn glow.
The air smelled 'fresh and Clean' and Smelled of the resent wet rainfall.
My back patio reloading shop had 'splashed' rain dampness on some of my storage cases out there but no direct rainfall on any of my gear or tools.
My Primers and Propellants were stored in Ammo Cans with good seals so is not subject to the dampness. However my cases in process of rework/forming were in plastic MTM cartridge boxes that were subject to splashed dampness.
Cartridge cases awaiting start of reforming or completed reformed ones are stored in other Seal fitted Ammo cans, as are my loaded Cartridges so they were not exposed to the dampness.

This 'Freshly Washed' rain cleaned air is a relief form the residual 'smoke and ash of the recent wildfires that have 'sulled' our air.

Chev. William

[deltaenterprizes]

I am actually using .250” OD for the cases, since I have not seated any bullets only 22 cal pellets I don’t know if more of a press fit will be needed.
I have a .250” reamer that I used to make my sizing die and would have to order something smaller.
A .002 press fit should be plenty for a small cartridge like this.

[Chev. William]

I am actually using .250” OD for the cases, since I have not seated any bullets only 22 cal pellets I don’t know if more of a press fit will be needed.
I have a .250” reamer that I used to make my sizing die and would have to order something smaller.
A .002 press fit should be plenty for a small cartridge like this.

Have you considered using redding neck sizing bushings or drill bushings as inserts in die bodies to us ein swaging down cases?

I admit my experiments using PTG 'Blank die Bodies" is somewhat overkill as they are designed for Rifle sized Magnum cartridge dies rather than Handgun sized cartridges.

Since you machine your own die bodies, the length of the body is more controllable by you. reaming for a bushing is also cheaper as they are available in reasonably consistent OD sizes. with the bore being a variable as specified. a possible 'problem is the lack of a tapered section between the Mouth radius and the actual 'sizing diameter' bore.

Chev. William

PS: I also tap the top end of the PTG die bodies in internal !/2-20UNF threads to take possible top accessories such as seating punches or a decapping punch if ever needed (not likely as I use a separate Universal Decapping die for that operation now).

Sadly, I do occasionally bend or break a decapping punch when processing "range Brass" as I have found some come with some funny things in them such as a smaller caliber case or a bullet inside the case in question.
Even in 'sorted' lots!

Chev. William