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MBTcustom
11-02-2015, 04:36 PM
Hello my friends. I would like to write, and give my opinion of what I have seen, read, witnessed, learned, and demonstrated while pursuing the goal of shooting cast bullets at high velocity, as well as share a few points of my progression of personal discovery in this discipline.
Many of you have participated and followed along with me since my arrival here in 2011, as well as the pursuit of others who were here before, and those who have joined in along the way.

This article would not be complete without an explanation of where I started and how I got here.
I was always a gun nut and I was always a hopeless do-it-your-selfer. I have been casting since I was an adolescent. My father may have been a little too consenting by teaching me how to cast and shoot when I was so young, as well as giving me free access to power tools, reloading components, and firearms, but he believed in freedom, and he wanted me to know what freedom really feels like, and he was successful in that undertaking.
I made my first pistol when I was 14 years old (I still have it) and it used black powder to shoot 35 caliber rifle bullets (358318). Over the next few years, I experimented with quite a few of my father’s molds, shooting quite a bit of 30-30, 35 Remington, 45ACP, and 357Magnum. In truth, I doubt I have ever bought and used a single box of store bought ammo for those calibers (except 30-30 once when I needed brass).
After shooting thousands of rounds of these, I discovered high power bolt action rifles, and the accuracy and precision that could be had from my hand loads using jacketed bullets. Very quickly, I decided that cast bullets were best suited to pistol ammunition, while jacketed bullets in the green box, were very worth the cost for the speed and accuracy obtained from them.
Speed became the thing I enjoyed most. Getting the bullet to the target as fast as possible (within the bounds of safety) was what I liked, but I would never go below 30 caliber. My trusty 30-06 was great fun to shoot, and 1/2MOA was normal, but the speed just wasn’t there, and the recoil was no issue for me at all, so I considered buying something with a little more to offer, and began casting my wandering eye towards the 30 caliber belted magnums. After careful consideration, I landed on 300 Winchester Magnum as the very best next step up, and I bought a Remington 700 BDL in this caliber.
Over the next couple years, two things happened that changed the course of my pursuits: 1. I burned out the barrel on that rifle, and 2. I became a father.
Any of you who ever started a young family know what having a child does to your ammunition fund, and my case was no different. When I finally got back to my shooting, I found that my available income was greatly reduced from where it was before, and I started applying myself to find a way to shoot cast bullets in rifles more effectively, especially at HV.
I explained my plan to my father, and he mentioned that cast bullets had been shot at 3000fps in a 300WinMag using paper patched bullets. I started researching this paper patched bullet discipline, and it took no more than a few internet searches to find that the very best place on the internet to learn how to make paper patched smokeless cartridges was none other than our fair site castboolits.gunloads.com.
I joined the forum and started applying myself to learn how to do this. About the time I learned how to get paper patch working in my rifles, I realized that there was a vast amount of knowledge relating to shooting standard cast bullets that I had never learned, so I took a step back, pulled out the old molds, and started seeing how fast I could push them. I began building custom rifles almost immediately for the purpose as well as reloading equipment because this allowed me to experiment with quality that was a “known entity”, and gave me flexibility to change things as needed to achieve success.
I saw that there were several members on the forum who claimed to be able to shoot HV with cast bullets, and I did my best to understand all there is to know about shooting HV cast bullets.
You name it, if it had to do with shooting cast at high velocity, I made it, modified it, improved it, or used it. No holds barred, and I honestly tried to understand all the methods that claimed to deliver true HV accuracy.

I have observed several interesting things in this pursuit, and come to identify several methods which allow the possibility of shooting cast bullets to high velocities (2500FPS-3000FPS)
One method called “The low RPM method” utilizes custom slow twist barrels to achieve HV with accuracy.
Another method, I call “The high RPM method” which refers to shooting HV with standard 10-12 twist barrels.
There are two other views which are: paper patching, and “enhanced alloys”.
Of course there is a fifth view, that being the copper jacketed bullet (however, this will be mentioned only in passing).

The purpose of this thread is to describe my personal observations that may be of great value to those who are looking to understand the phenomena posted on castboolits.com and why it is difficult at times to reproduce in their own rifles. Please just try to take it with a grain of salt, and think about what I’m saying as I really don’t think any of the methods are doing anything that the others are not doing and I believe I understand how and why each of them work. Read on, and form your own conclusion. After all, it’s just “the opinion of that crazy goodsteel guy on cast bullets.” LOL!

Most of you have probably experienced the “RPM threshold” phenomenon where your cast bullet groups suddenly become minute of berm? I recently experienced this with one of my cast bullet rifles in 35XCB caliber. As long as I stayed below 2590FPS, my bullets would go into less than 2” at 100 yards, but when my loads crossed 2600, the group opened up to 10” or more. Just 10FPS between reasonable accuracy, and horrible accuracy. That’s the RPM threshold.

I started my pursuit of HV cast bullets from the “High RPM” point of view, and some have demonstrated pretty impressive shooting at 100 yards. The theory goes that if you match your alloy to your powder selection and barrel harmonics, you can push a relatively soft bullet at high velocity and maintain usable accuracy at long range. This method is anything but plug and play, and the best advice I have gotten is to just start shooting and figure out what your gun wants, and don’t be surprised if it takes 2000 rounds to get it right. I’m pretty much convinced at this point that advice is about as good as it gets, because it is a very specific condition for each particular rifle.
That said, I have no doubt that this is possible and has been done by numerous shooters for many years, and I think I know why it is possible as I will describe.

Another view that I have personally had excellent results with is the “Slow twist method” which simply negates the RPM threshold by using a new barrel in slower twist to make it so that the bullets never cross 140,000RPM so they do not ever get to the point where the groups open up dramatically. This method uses hard bullets made of classic alloys like Linotype, and Lyman #2 or COWW+2% tin water dropped. Speeds in excess of 3000FPS are easily achievable with barrels of 16 and 17 twist, and accuracy of 1.5MOA is possible and very common at ranges of 300 yards and probably further.

Another method that I have only dabbled in a little is the copper enhanced alloy method.
This method uses common alloys that have been spiked with copper to make them harder and tougher than anything that could be obtained with standard alloys. These bullets can be pushed to reasonably high velocity in excess of 2500FPS, although accuracy figures have escaped me. I get the feeling that it is similar to the other methods mentioned and probably well under 2MOA at 2500FPS. These bullets are too hard/tough to hunt with unless special precautions are taken such as hollow pointing them (my opinion only).

The final method I have looked into is paper patching. This is a very difficult pursuit of the perfect paper, the perfect wrap, the perfect alloy, and the perfect size of both the core, and the paper. However, it is demonstrated that it is very possible to achieve 1” groups at 3000fps with this method if you get it all right. Not too shabby if you can do it!


So that’s a brief overview of the four principle methods of HV cast bullets.
It is my opinion that all these methods function on the same principle, and have their own way of dealing with the thing that destroys cast bullet accuracy, and makes the RPM threshold a reality for so many people.
One of my favorite quotes from Albert Einstien says: “Once we accept our limitations, we can move past them” but it is my opinion that you have to know what your limitations are in the first place before you can either accept them, or move past them, and in the case of cast bullets, those limitations are very hard to see.
However, I believe I may have discovered what the limitations are, or something very close to it.

It happened back when I was planning to design the 30XCB bullet. I was attempting to do anything I could to see what actually happens when the bullet is engraved. Many have postulated that “the bullet gets damaged as it enters the rifling” but I could not understand why or how that is possible given that my rifles are very carfully designed and built to be perfectly concentric with chambers and throats that are perfectly aligned in every way, and my ammunition is built to the same exacting standards! I’m willing to admit that my bullets get damaged, but I take issue with the assertion that they are damaged in an way that is not perfectly concentric, and for the “damaged bullet” assertion to be true, they would have to be damaged on only one side, or in a misaligned fashion. That idea may hold up on your Wal-Mart Remington, but not on an MBT custom rifle! It’s impossible. Especially when you figure the fact that both the Wal-Mart Remington and the MBT flame out at exactly the same RPM? It just doesn’t hold water.
Add to that, the fact that I have recovered many bullets from the berm that were shot over the RPMTH and I saw no damage whatsoever (reading through the berm damage obviously). Not a single clue. Not a single hint of bullet imbalance based on visual inspection.
Of course, all of the bullets I observed were almost completely destroyed by the impact, so I needed a way to engrave the bullet like it would be as it was fired from the rifle with a full charge of powder.
After looking at a few pressure trace graphs, I thought that maybe I could use a small charge of fast burning powder to stuff the bullet into the rifling in a very similar fashion as it would be when a column of slow powder was ignited behind it, but without the subsequent buildup of pressure that accelerates it into warp speed and destroys it on the backstop. All I realty need is the first inch of bullet travel!
So I loaded one of my rifles with a very small charge of Bullseye powder and used it to shoot bullets into a bucket filled with wet sand.
I dug out the bullets as they were shot and scrubbed them gently with Dawn dish soap and a soft bristle brush in the sink, patted them dry, then observed them under magnification with a Bosch and Lomb microscope.
At first, I didn’t see anything that looked out of place. I saw a small amount of skid as the bullet engraved the rifling, but it was very concentric and even. Nothing was really standing out at me that would suggest an imbalanced bullet. I shot every 30 caliber mold design in the shop and carefully observed each of them.
The big light bulb moment came when I was observing a Lovern style bullet (311466) and I noticed that the rifling marks were not straight. It seemed that the bullet had become twisted when it gently impacted the wet sand in the bucket. I did the test again, and fired a few of that same bullet and looked at each one under magnification. They all exhibited the same slightly twisted look.
Suddenly, I realized what I was looking at! The bullet is a soft but strong material! What was happening was that the nose of the bullet engraved first and was commanded to spin by the rifling (as evidenced by the slight skid marks on the nose) while the base was still stationary. The base of the bullet caught up a little slower than the nose of the bullet, but when the bullet exited the muzzle, the bullet was strong enough to try to right itself in flight. Effectively doing a “dishrag twist” as it flies. There’s no way that centrifugal force is going ignore that vibration. At a certain point (I believe a VERY SPECIFIC POINT) the centrifugal force produced by the RPM is going to use that to overcome the stabilizing fact of the bullet’s spinning, and thus you have the RPMTH. I think I just popped the big red balloon the RPMTH was hiding behind.


Now, armed with this knowledge, I designed the 30XCB bullet. My objective was to make the rifling engrave the bullet right in the middle of the projectile, so that neither the nose nor the base had much chance to get engraved in a strange way (in fact, the nose has no opportunity at all, and nose slump is the only thing to worry about). The bullet was designed to be controlled by the rifling at all costs, to obtain as much BC as possible. It was designed to be balanced and to resist getting twisted head-on by being cast of strong alloys and being designed to survive every stage of the firing process. I believe the instant success of this bullet in all kinds of rifles across the board speaks to the fact that I was definitely onto something, and this bullet ended up being the golden ticket for the HV slow twist method.

Now, let’s apply this knowledge to the other methods of shooting HV cast bullets and see how it plays out.

HV with standard twist:
The hallmark 30 caliber bullet of the HV with standard twist crowd is the venerable Mi-Heck 30SIL. This bullet is everything the 30XCB is not. It has a progressive nose that is hourglass shaped and touches the crest of the ogive and the flare of the skirt just in front of a positively cavernous lube groove which renders a suspiciously thin core that connects the front of the bullet to the little base that holds the gas check. Given what I learned from the sandbox test (which this bullet was part of) this has to be the worst possible design in the history of HV shooting. Or is it? The fact is, wherever I would opt to make the bullet strong, the designer of the 30SIL designed in a weakness. Add to this the fact that the people who use this bullet to achieve unbelievably high velocities also insist on alloys that are very similar to those used in jacketed bullets (some even use range scrap exclusively) which have (amongst other properties) the ability to be twisted without springing back. In other words, the bullet engraves the rifling in the same twisted fashion and takes a set in that condition while still in the barrel which allows it to emerge as a stable projectile capable of much greater RPM, and theoretically, the harder you push it, the better it will like it, to a certain point.
Very few have been able to feel out the specifics of this method with even one rifle but it has been done numerous times.

Let’s consider paper patched bullets:
It is my belief that the paper jacket works just like a copper jacket. It protects the core of the bullet (our cast bullet in this case) from getting twisted by the rotational inertial as the bullet is being spun up and engraved. The patch itself allows the bullet to slip beneath it. This is one big reason you NEVER get good results if you glue the patch to the bullet. I’ve got news for you, once the bullet leaves the barrel, it doesn’t matter whether the patch stays attached, or comes of as confetti or paper dust. The main function of the paper patch is to help the bullet survive the first inch of acceleration, and get it out of the barrel in an “at rest” fashion, which it does quite well. The main problem with paper patching is getting a paper that protects the bullet well while keeping it perfectly aligned in the barrel, while not jacking with the flight as it is jettisoned at the muzzle. Basically, the paper does a great job of protecting the bullet, but it does an even better job of jacking up umpteen other things if you don’t do them right! Gotta TAME that rascal!

Copper enhanced alloys:
This is simply strengthening the bullet so much that it can resist getting twisted. That’s all I’m going to say about this method because I have not personally experimented with it enough but it can’t be left out of the discussion.

Now, I’ll tell you something else concerning jacketed bullets:
THEY DEAL WITH THE SAME ISSUE and they deal with it better than anything else.
I have cut open quite a few jacketed target bullets and XRF tested them to see what alloy is used in their cores. By and large, the alloy is pure, dead soft lead. That soft lead core, combined with a hard jacket made of perfect bearing material does something that our bullets cannot ever do. The cores twist and settle perfectly in that first inch of rifling and actually work like a shock absorber or a mercury recoil tube. That bullet leaves the muzzle as dead as a hammer with a hard jacket that will keep it together during enormous RPM and centrifugal force, and keep it safe all the way to the target up to 2 miles away. You can’t beat that with a wet squirrel.

This is what I have gleaned from the XCB project, and where my mind has been while I have been working towards HV cast bullets. I’m hoping people do not get the impression that there is a single way to do this, or that one way is smart, while others are dumb etc etc etc. Shooting HV cast bullets is a hard thing to do, and there are several ways to do it. One thing I think I can say with certainty is that it’s expensive. You have to pay the piper with time or money and there is no way around it.


Conclusions
So HV cast bullets is not economical which is the reason many people get into this sport. It’s still cool as all get out, and gets you lots of looks at the range from people who can’t shoot an AR-15 as well as you do your 30-06. LOL!
For me, it was about seeing what’s out there, how it works, and why it works. I’m satisfied with what I have learned so far, and what has been achieved. I hope everyone here has benefited greatly from the efforts of everyone who contributed to the HV cast bullet pursuits described (and at times fought over) by all involved. I can say it’s been the most exciting and grandest project I’ve ever attempted, and I appreciate having a place to tell people about it instead of the knowledge being mine alone and lost to anyone who might wish to do the same thing.
Thanks!

waksupi
11-02-2015, 05:30 PM
I've also figured out a couple things about HV. One, I have done it without a terrible amount of fuss and bother. You just need to do everything right, from case prep to projectile weighing.
Second, after pouring over various ballistics tables over the years, I have come to realize if you have an accurate load and want to push it faster for longer range, you must gain a minimum of 300 fps to make any real noticeable and usable "in the hunting field" difference in trajectory.

wmitty
11-02-2015, 05:45 PM
Tim, thanks for the huge amount of work and expense that has gone into this endeavor. You have written an excellent summary and provided those of us which were following the efforts of your work a lot to think about!

M-Tecs
11-02-2015, 06:06 PM
Tim, great writeup. Thanks!!!!!!!!

Blackwater
11-02-2015, 06:27 PM
Thank YOU, Tim, for this post. It seems that growing up in a rocket science type family has its perks, and you've tackled this question just like I'm guessing you were taught to. It's really great to see someone walking away from the "group think" philosophies, and really getting things down pat, and breaking former limits. This is how man has always progressed, and always will, while most folks just accept "accepted wisdom" as the limits. Ya' done good, bro'! REAL good, and thanks to you for posting it here.

buckwheatpaul
11-02-2015, 06:31 PM
Great Job .... I appreciate it....Paul

Mytmousemalibu
11-02-2015, 06:44 PM
Excellent work Tim! That was quite the school lesson sir!

JWT
11-02-2015, 08:00 PM
The various discussions of cast at high velocity are what brought me to the site. Very good write up.

quilbilly
11-02-2015, 08:06 PM
Well done. Well written.

Cowboy_Dan
11-02-2015, 08:34 PM
Wow, just wow. This is the exact information I needed to get my thinking about high velocity with cast in order. And, presented in such a clear and concise way that I am confident to try the "high rpm method" in my Mosin. Just as soon as I am able to cast just a bit more consistently. Too bad the 30 Sil doesn't come in .314", I wonder which of my boolits would be the best choice. I have the NOE 314466, Lee c-312185-2r, and a Herter's copy of the 314299. Thanks again, Goodsteel.

rintinglen
11-02-2015, 08:49 PM
Bravo! Clear, concise and informative--it is the ne plus ultra ​on this topic. Goodsteel, but better writing.

Larry Gibson
11-02-2015, 08:55 PM
"At a certain point (I believe a VERY SPECIFIC POINT) the centrifugal force produced by the RPM is going to use that to overcome the stabilizing fact of the bullet’s spinning, and thus you have the RPMTH."

Keep in mind if a bullet is pushed over the RPM Threshold the stability of the bullet is not affected. The centrifugal force affects the imbalances in the bullet. Those imbalances cause the Center Of Spin not to coincide with the Center Of Mass. It is this COM not coinciding with the COS that the centrifugal force acts on. The greater the COM is and the farther it is from the COS the lower the RPM threshold will be. The greater the RPM the greater the adverse affect will be. The bullet will begin a slow helical flight around the intended flight path or the flight path will go off on a tangent. In either case the bullet remains stable and flies point forward but the flight path is non-linear as the range increases.

Acceptable accuracy can be had in the 2 - 4 moa (or whatever the shooter may find acceptable)using cast bullets at a considerable amount over the RPM Threshold. That's fine if all you shoot is out to 100 yards. However if you shoot such a load at 200 yards you may easily find the accuracy there to be 6 - 12+ moa or even totally off target. It just depends on what's "acceptable".

I've been shooting sub 2 moa ten shot groups (most often 1 1/2 moa) at 100, 200 and 300 yards with 2 different cast bullets at 2850 - 2950 fps. With another very 100+ year old common hunting cast bullet I've been shooting 1 1/ 2 moa to 300 yards at 2500+ fps. That's with common alloys we use for hunting cast bullets. That's what I find "acceptable".

Larry Gibson

MrWolf
11-02-2015, 09:50 PM
As others said, great write up Tim. Thanks.

runfiverun
11-03-2015, 01:27 AM
Wow, just wow. This is the exact information I needed to get my thinking about high velocity with cast in order. And, presented in such a clear and concise way that I am confident to try the "high rpm method" in my Mosin. Just as soon as I am able to cast just a bit more consistently. Too bad the 30 Sil doesn't come in .314", I wonder which of my boolits would be the best choice. I have the NOE 314466, Lee c-312185-2r, and a Herter's copy of the 314299. Thanks again, Goodsteel.

the 30-silh would be a poor choice in your 31 cal rifle.
the one Part Tim didn't mention was how the design that flowed and moved [poor? weak? supported under movement would be a better description maybe]
what you are mimicking is actually quit similar to the XCB design only in a different way, one is designed to be a mechanical way and the other is a static flowing design that uses angles and shapes to help align and support the softer alloy under movement.

it would be the difference in how contact with the barrel and at what pressure it occurs at as to which design you want to pursue.
Tim does a pretty good job at explaining how the XCB design works and why the harder less malleable alloy's help it work, think in the opposite direction where some hardness can help but you then must change the powders timing to peak pressure to re-align the fluid point [and gain or lose velocity in the process] of the boolit as it enters the barrel without riveting or damage.
the 30-silh isn't the only boolit of this design, look at the 30-165 A at accurate and at Veral smith's 30 cal H/V design.
you'll see some similar aspects to them also the main difference is that one is based on a 30-06 type throat and one on a 308 type throat which are quite similar but not quite similar enough to achieve best results swapping one out for the other at the highest velocity's.
this same principle also works for jacketed ammo where say the 243 and 6mm rem throats are not exactly the same, so just a swap from Sierra to Hornady can change the group size and shape as well as point of impact in a particular rifle.

Greg S
11-03-2015, 01:47 AM
Tim, as a new caster and relatively new member of this site I'm still learning the limits of the craft. My entry i to this endevor was two fold; economy and provide for myself what wasn't easily available on the common maket. Ya just gave m a bunch of homework to look into this. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiances in a well organized easy to understand review.

Hannibal
11-03-2015, 04:33 AM
I once commented to Tim that I thought shooting cast at high velocity was akin to a top fuel dragster.

VERY cool to watch, but costly and not something to bring home the groceries with. And that's still my take on it.

Nice write up, Tim. Thanks for laying your experiences out there.

MBTcustom
11-03-2015, 08:04 AM
One more point I would like to mention about shooting cast bullets to high velocity, is that you should consider why you are doing it. What is the reason? If you're planing to shoot deer at 100 yards or less, please see the link in my sig line and see the deer I blew up with a bullet going a lethargic 2100FPS. What do you suppose would have happened if I had shot that deer with a cast bullet going 2700-3000FPS eh?
If you are not interested in watching deer explode, then you must be interested in long range shooting. If you are interested in long range shooting, that means you need your bullets to shoot well at 100 200 300 400 etc etc etc.
A problem with cast bullets that seems to be very prevalent, is that they are almost NEVER shooting linear groups. That is, with jacketed bullets, if you shoot 1" groups at 100 yards, it's a pretty good assumption that your accuracy at 200 yards will be 2" and your accuracy at 300 yards will be 3" and so on. That assumption can never be made with cast bullets. Very rarely do you find a HV cast bullet combination that shoots with linear dispersion all the way out. They almost always have a point where your group opens rapidly, where you might be holding a Copenhagen can sized group at 175 yards, but at 250 yards, you just can't hardly hit a milk jug 3 out of 5. Let me tell you something, your ammo didn't just decide not to shoot. You didn't just get some wind. You didn't just pull a few shots. Your loads are simply not shooting straight at that distance even if they were shooting well at closer ranges. From the point of view of a bird looking down on the shooter, the flight path of 30 bullets would look like a wine glass. Long straight stem area (this is your range of acceptable accuracy) that suddenly opens at a certain range. Seen it many many times, and I can tell you with complete confidence that you should not trust cast bullets at long range unless you have proven them at that range. That's just a basic difference between HV cast, and jacketed shooting, although frankly, you should really test your jacketed loads at the ranges you intend to shoot also.
You just can't trust cast bullets to back up your assumptions, and you have to be honest with yourself about what is going on downrange. I think a lot of people just ASSUME that a 1.5MOA group at 100 means a 15MOA group at 1000 if you could shoot that well. It just doesn't work that way in real life, and if there's one thing I have learned while shooting HV and helping others to do the same, is that you either test you loads at different ranges, or you don't know what you have.
It aint real till its real.

Menner
11-03-2015, 09:05 AM
Great write up Tim
While I have not and don't anticipate chasing HV Cast, the research you and everyone that has chased that rabbit no matter the method used has benefitted the cast boolit shooters that have read the postings on the topic. That is much appreciated by this shooter.
Thank You
Tony

44man
11-03-2015, 09:47 AM
That was a super post, Tim.
Everyone knows I shoot mostly revolvers and I can say for a fact that even though I do not talk high velocities nor can attain them, What you describe works exactly the same in a revolver due to the nature of the beast, the transition from throat to cone to bore. Fast V slow powders.
I have often wondered about the Keith with the wide, deep GG and whether it twists. Since I started making my boolits with 2 or 3 smaller GG's I have seen a huge increase in accuracy. There is also the function of boolit weight in the revolver that can bring in what you describe.
Much good food for thought in your post so thank you.
Now Larry describes something also and you do not need high velocities to actually see this. You can actually see the affect from a revolver or single shot pistols with much slower speeds.
I have watched thousands of boolits in flight with a good spotting scope and darn, even shot slower, I have seen all he describes. A simple boolit change can eliminate much of it. I have seen it with jacketed and as little as 10 gr more bullet weight will stop it.
We are all in the same boat so what you two have found can apply across the board.
However, Tim, Non linear flight is a direct cause of not enough RPM's or a slow twist so as you solve one problem, another crops up. What would a gain twist do with cast?

Blackwater
11-03-2015, 09:50 AM
Tim, any comments on lubes that work at HV, or on powder coating vs. conventional lubes?

MBTcustom
11-03-2015, 10:29 AM
Tim, any comments on lubes that work at HV, or on powder coating vs. conventional lubes?

With the Low RPM method, the only lubes that would hold up consistently at velocities of 2700-3000FPS were those made by my friend Glenn Larson with White Label Lubes (an accomplished HV shooter himself). Those two lubes are 2500+ and 2700+. Both lubes lived up to their names.


With the High RPM method, the shooters had good luck with various homemade lubes such as SL-68 and it’s variants, but Glenn Larson used his own 2700+ to achieve HV accuracy.

Paper patch is lubed with Rooster Red, 45-45-10, or olive oil beeswax mix.

MBTcustom
11-03-2015, 10:51 AM
I meant to offer an opinion on what is the easiest rifle on the market to achieve HV with accuracy. All things considered, I believe a Savage rifle with an aftermarket Shilen barrel in 358 Winchester 1-14 twist is the easiest/cheapest way to dip your big toe in HV shooting. You can go right to 2400 FPS by doing a few things right.

Past that, a 30-06 caliber barrel with a 1-16 twist, using the 30XCB bullet will take you all the way to 3000FPS very quickly.

True, both of these options are low RPM methods. I only say this because it's easy, quick, and you get exactly what you pay for.

I still recommend the Savage bolt action if you go with the high RPM method. I would say get a 308 in 1-12 twist. It will be a good test bed, and Savage is making the best factory barrels in my opinion, and it's much more likely to get a good shooter there. Get a wood stocked model so you can bed the action, and make sure it has the accutrigger. Great rifles.

Other rifles that would be an excellent platform to learn how to do this are:
Tikka T-3 (remember to get the wood stock)
Sako (pick one, they rock).
CZ (yep, another euro. They just have that hammer forging thing down pat)
Winchester push feed (use discretion, and have your gunsmith inform you of barrel quality. These are often great rifles).

Obviously, you can shoot HV with anything, but when you start looking for accuracy at HV, you need all the precision you can get.
If you need a custom barrel attached to a rifle you already own, or if you would like to use the 30XCB PM me.

Larry Gibson
11-03-2015, 10:56 AM
Since the early or mid '70s I have done a lot of cast bullet shooting/testing at longer ranges of 300 yards out to 600 yards and even further. The testing was for accuracy mostly shooting 10 and sometimes 20 shot groups on target and measuring and analyzing the groups. I also have sat behind spotting scopes and watched the trace and, if the light was right, the actual bullets in flight to the target. This was done with twists of 10, 12 14 and now 16" in barrels of 22 through 31" in length mostly in .308W and 30-06 cartridges. I have used Loverin designs such as the 311466 and 311467, traditional designs such as 311299, 311291, 311284 and 311332 and modern bore riders such as the RCBS 30-168, MH 30-180Sil and the MH 30-168Sil.

Goodsteel states;

"A problem with cast bullets that seems to be very prevalent, is that they are almost NEVER shooting linear groups. That is, with jacketed bullets, if you shoot 1" groups at 100 yards, it's a pretty good assumption that your accuracy at 200 yards will be 2" and your accuracy at 300 yards will be 3" and so on. That assumption can never be made with cast bullets. Very rarely do you find a HV cast bullet combination that shoots with linear dispersion all the way out."

Quite frankly I am mystified by that. I have shot Lord only knows how many groups with the same load that had almost perfect linear dispersion to 500 yards. All he has to do is check the scores posted on the CBA forum and he will see the 200 yard groups are almost always well the defines of linear dispersion. Perhaps what he means is That assumption [should] never be made with cast bullets at HV over the RPM Threshold. If that is what he meant then I would concur 100% with that statement as any cast bullet over the RPM Threshold (at whatever RPM that may happen to be as it does not necessarily occur right at 140,000 RPM) will not exhibit linear dispersion as the range increases.

They almost always have a point where your group opens rapidly, where you might be holding a Copenhagen can sized group at 175 yards, but at 250 yards, you just can't hardly hit a milk jug 3 out of 5. Let me tell you something, your ammo didn't just decide not to shoot. You didn't just get some wind. You didn't just pull a few shots. Your loads are simply not shooting straight at that distance even if they were shooting well at closer ranges. From the point of view of a bird looking down on the shooter, the flight path of 30 bullets would look like a wine glass. Long straight stem area (this is your range of acceptable accuracy) that suddenly opens at a certain range. Seen it many many times, and I can tell you with complete confidence that you should not trust cast bullets at long range unless you have proven them at that range.

I have also seen this phenomenon. It has nothing to do with the RPM Threshold or initial stability of the bullet. What is described is simply what happens when the bullet drops down through the sonic "barrier" going from sonic to sub-sonic velocity if is buffeted by the occurring forces. This buffeting generally occurs between 11300 fps +/- to about 1000 fps +/-. Some bullets, depends mostly on the BC, the SD and the weight will with stand the buffeting better than others and make the transition to sub-sonic w/o loss of accuracy. Others, as goodsteel mentions, just go off on their own merry way.

You can easily shoot at HV with accuracy and maintain linear dispersion. Some want everyone to think it is very difficult to do, it is not. The beginning caster with a good grasp of reloading techniques should be able to accomplish HV with accuracy. So should any other bullet caster who will simply understand what is necessary. What is necessary is not difficult. You do have to have the proper casting and loading equipment though and the knowledge to use it correctly. You also have to learn how to really cast quality bullets. An expensive custom rifle is not necessary as I, and others have shown numerous times how to push the RPM Threshold up in commonly available 10 and 12" twist .224 and .30 caliber rifles. The same can be done in other calibers. No you are not going to shoot to as high a velocity with the 10" twist as with the 12" twist barrels with the same linear capable accuracy. If you are rebarreling a rifle it costs no more for a slower twist than a faster twist barrel from a quality barrel maker. With such you should indeed be able to shoot cast bullets of a common ternary alloy at jacketed bullet velocities with a 14" twist barrel 26" or longer in .30 caliber while maintaining 1 1/2 moa accuracy or less at velocities of 2550 - 2650 fps.

It is not difficult folks.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson
11-03-2015, 11:06 AM
Tim, any comments on lubes that work at HV, or on powder coating vs. conventional lubes?

I ran a HV test of lubes. I believe there were 14 or so lubes involved. The results are on the NOE Forum. I found Javelina (no longer available but Lar's NRA 50/50 lube is as good) and 2500+ to give the best accuracy at HV using the 30 XCB bullet (#2 alloy) in the .308W in my Palma rifle with a 14" twist. The same load was used which ran right at 2600 fps.

I've also shot a lot of HV (2200 - 2500+ fps) in 10 and 12" twists. I've also found 2500+ and the NRA 50/50 lube to perform as well there. I've found 2700+ (Carnauba Red) to perform well with some bullets nut not so well with others.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson
11-03-2015, 11:14 AM
Regarding Savage rifles for cast bullet shooting. Savage also makes the 112 in a Palma configuration with a 30" barrel having a 13" twist chambered in .308W. That would be an excellent factory available option if HV cast bullet shooting at longer ranges is your desire.

If you've a M98 Mauser in good condition or even a commercial action and want to rebarrel you might contact goodsteel and see what a 26 - 30" barrel with a 14" twist chambered in .308W, 30x57, 30x60 or 30-06 XCB will cost. A medium length commercial action will be just fine for the .308W or the 30x57 XCB. A standard '06 length action is needed for the 30x60 and, of course, the 30-06. If you really want to push to real HV (2900 - 3000 fps) then the 30x60or 30-06 XCB with a 30" barrel with a 16" twist is the way to go.

Just food for thought along those lines. The quality of goodsteel's work is well worth what you will pay for it.

Larry Gibson

MBTcustom
11-03-2015, 11:25 AM
No argument Larry. The lowRPM method that we have used does not have some of the issues other methods do. But I didn't start this thread to talk about one method, but to give my impression of all methods across the board, and HV shooting in general. Not everyone wants to shoot lowRPM. Some people want to shoot the rifles they already have, or the rifles they can afford.

Regardless, I don't care what method you subscribe to; the point I was making, is that it is necessary to be careful to test at the range you plan to shoot. 1/2" groups at 50 yards should not give people the idea that they can hit a deer at 300 yards. I'll say it again: You have to test your loads at the range you plan to shoot.

Since this is a discussion of all the HV methods, I thought it was a good point to make.

kens
11-03-2015, 12:45 PM
Can someone please help me understand what 'standard' twist rate is anyway?
If I run the green hill formula for a caliber, I get twist rate answers like 12" or 13" or slower.
Why are commercial makers adhering to 8" or 10" twist rates? or even faster?
It seems that the 'slow twist' you mention in the XCB threads are merely 'standard' twists when run through a Greenhill formula, Why is that?

Larry Gibson
11-03-2015, 01:05 PM
Can someone please help me understand what 'standard' twist rate is anyway?
If I run the green hill formula for a caliber, I get twist rate answers like 12" or 13" or slower.
Why are commercial makers adhering to 8" or 10" twist rates? or even faster?
It seems that the 'slow twist' you mention in the XCB threads are merely 'standard' twists when run through a Greenhill formula, Why is that?

Back in the day (well over 100 years ago) when the 30 U.S. Gvmt. (30-40) cartridge was developed with it's 200 gr RN bullet they used a 10" twist. Most world governments back then (late 1800s) developing smokeless 7mm, 30, .31 and 8mm military cartridges were for heavy long RN jacketed bullets found twists of 9 1/2 to 10" to be best for stabilizing those long heavy bullets. In the early 1900s when the shorter, lighter weight and pointed "spritzer" bullets were developed and adopted it was found they performed well enough in the 9 1/2 - 10" twist barrels that were already on rifles and what the barrel making machinery was set up for. Thus they just continued with what they had as there was no real need to retool. Same reason as why the 8mm Kurz and the 7.62x39 military barrels have 9 1/2" twists; they just went with the machinery already in use making barrels for the larger 8x57 and 7.62x54R cartridges.

Thus the faster twists became "standard" because the commercial rifle makers wanted the cartridges to be able to shoot the long heavy bullets as well as the lighter and medium weight bullets. Those lighter, medium weight bullets were shorter also and thus did not really require the faster twist but since they did fine the faster twist was retained. Besides it's easier and more economical to manufacture barrel with one twist barrel on a large commercial scale where the profit motive drives the train. There was no consideration given at all to us cast bullet shooters. Only a relative few competition shooters (bench rest and high power) understand the advantage of matching the twist to the bullet used. The smaller barrel makers cater to them but it is more costly to produce the fewer barrels.

Now days with the longer and heavier .224 bullets the faster twist is required for bullet stability. An example is the Sierra 55 gr BK. Most would assume that bullet at 55 gr would be fine in a 12" twist .223 or 14" twist 22-250......but it just isn't so. With the plastic tip the bullet is as long as most 60 - 64 gr SP bullets which require a 10" or faster twist. Such is the case with those Sierra 55 BKs; they shoot very poorly in my 12" twist AR and my M700 14" twist 22-250 but are superbly accurate out of my Colt Comp AR and Savage 112 Comp with 9" twist.


Basically "standard twist" as used by most of us will refer to the commonly available twists on commercial and milsurp rifles.

Larry Gibson

runfiverun
11-03-2015, 01:08 PM
factory rifles are built to handle anything available out there.
you might not want to shoot a 200gr jacketed bullet in your 308 but I [make my own and do] might.

1-10 has become a standard twist rate in the 30 cals over the years just because of the fact it's easier to make one 30 caliber pile of blanks, then chamber and screw them on the 300 W.M. or 308 action coming down the line next.

in some/many instances the slower twist rate is a detriment to stability or just flat out frustrating.
it sucks to have a 44 mag capable of only shooting 200gr bullets at 1700 fps, or a 300 BO that won't stabilize anything over 200grs at the lower velocity's you bought the rifle to shoot it at.

one thing most don't take into consideration when trying to shoot cast is that the better you protect the boolit throughout it's journey from the pot to the target the better your results on that target will be.
if that means spinning the thing slower while accelerating it down the barrel to minimize skidding or the affects those uneven lines on the side of the boolit have on it's flight to the target then that is something to take into consideration.

and for one second do not think that rifling [height/sharpness] twist rate doesn't affect terminal performance of a jacketed bullet either.
cut into a jacket with a taller sharper land and then spin it up [with velocity or twist rate] and see what happens when it hits an animal versus the same round fired in the opposite set-up.
the affects and their differences are quite startling.

MBTcustom
11-03-2015, 01:10 PM
Standard twist varies by caliber, but it's generally too fast to take advantage of the low RPM method. Also, generally speaking, faster is safer if you are using jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullet quality is so good these days that over spinning is not much of an issue, but if the bullet ever loses RPM enough to become unstable, accuracy is toast. So the twist rates for jacketed bullets are intentionally fast anyway, but when you start pushing a cast bullet in them, you get into the "ridiculously stable" area because cast bullets are about 2/3rds the length of jacketed, so they don't need anywhere near the twist to achieve stability.

Here is a list of common twist rate's by caliber:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?235414-Common-Cartridge-Rifle-Twist-Rate-Reference-List

MBTcustom
11-03-2015, 01:34 PM
Popper, thanks for weighing in on the copper alloys method. I wanted to post more about that, as I believe it to be a viable way to get HV (at 100 yards at least) but I had not the energy or gumption to get into that like I wanted to. When you get a chance to shoot longer ranges, it would be invaluable to see if the bullets demonstrate linear dispersion of not.

Larry Gibson
11-03-2015, 01:36 PM
Not arguing at all goodsteel, just clarifying is all. After having tied to explain how it works over the last 10 years or so I know all too well that over simplification leads to misunderstanding and disbelief.

It should be obvious to all that while I am a proponent of using slower twists for HV cast bullet shooting that I also am also a proponent of how to adequately shoot cast bullets in the faster twist rifles to their attainable HV levels that maintains linear accuracy at longer ranges. My thread on the NOE forum regarding HV in 10 and 12" twist is ample evidence are the many posts on numerous threads on this forum where I demonstrate that. Let us not forget my results also on this forum with the 6.5 Swede at HV. I have backed up everything I say with posted tests and targets. I am more than willing to help anyone with any rifle regardless of the twist achieve the highest possible velocity with accuracy. What I don't do is make claims I can not back up nor advise anyone to attempt what they more than like will not achieve.

Some liken the RPM Threshold and what it takes to understand what really happens to a bullet in flight as akin to "rocket science". They think such "rocket science" is beyond them. What I am telling them is they don't need to understand it all. Heck, it has taken me 30+ years of study, countless tests and untold expenditure to figure it out and understand it. I certainly don't expect anyone to now understand it all from a few posts in a few threads. They don't need to understand it actually. They can shoot as high a velocity as their own rifle will attain with linear accuracy without understanding at all. They just need to learn how to cast real quality bullets and load them correctly. There is no big secret, myths or "rocket science" involved.

As you say goodsteel; it can be as easy as plug in and shoot. Probably 99% of the members reading this have absolutely no idea exactly how their computer works.....do they? yet they sit their, plug it in and play with it......don't they? They don't know how or why the computer does what it does but they know if they operate it correctly it will do what they want it to do within the computer's capability. Some of them have a basic computer set up and don't expect more than to do just the basics to email and use the internet. Others have totally tricked out custom set ups that can do a lot more than email and internet. Both have different expectations of performance and the varied set ups reflect that. Yet neither type of individuals need know the "why" they just need to know the "how" to use their computer set ups to the capability of the set up.

It is exactly the same with shooting cast bullets at HV. They don't need to know the "why" to do it. They just need to know the "how". They set the parameters of what they want to do by either the equipment's abilities or they get the equipment "set up" to have it do what they want. If they want to shoot HV with a "standard" twist then they will understand or son find out the abilities of that "standard twist. If they want to shoot a cast bullet as fast as it potentially can then they will do as we have; they will get the equipment to do that with. That includes matching the twist to the intended cast bullet.

Either way they do not need to understand the "rocket science" of the RPM threshold. They just need to understand it is there and how to deal with it either by pushing it up as far as they can or by negating it through the use of a slower twist barrel. It's not really hard to do either way but one of the ways is a lot easier, quicker, will allow better accuracy at higher velocity and will give you a whole lot less frustration getting there.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson
11-03-2015, 01:47 PM
Popper

Excellent info on your efforts to push the 120 - 140,000 RPM Threshold, which is standard for normal ternary alloys, up through the use of a copper enriched alloy, properly designed bullets and PCing. I've been following your posts on the copper alloy thread and see your close range groups show real promise. I can push the RPM Threshold out of my 10" twist .308Ws up to 2350+ fps with a ternary cast XCB bullet and maintain 1.5 moa accuracy at 100 yards and 2 - 2.5 moa accuracy at 300 yards. That's pushing the RPM Threshold up a little more than 30,000 RPM. Thus the RPM Threshold for my components seems to hover around 171,000 RPM.

I see you getting very good results at a bit higher velocity so the Cu enrichment and PC seems to be working. I'll be real interested in your longer 200 yards results. Good work, keep at it.

Larry Gibson

runfiverun
11-03-2015, 07:13 PM
there is also the myriad of alloy's to match to other situations.
I use a 4/6 alloy in my 8 twist 223 at 2800 fps.
and swap back to a low Tin low antimony alloy in my 30 cal rifles at 24-2500 fps.
throat shape and boolit design along with powder pressure timing will affect or dictate what your max velocity will be.
getting the accuracy quite often depends on the rifle itself.
a 1-1/2" remington will not automatically become a 1/2" rifle with cast, you can quite often exceed jacketed accuracy with cast boolits but you have to learn the basic steps of barrel slugging, doing pound slugs in the throat, and how to find the centerline of your barrel with a case.
then the other things like alloy and how it actually works under pressure.
and a lubes viscosity/thixotropic quality's also come into play at some point.
all of that knowledge is worthless if your chamber is cut off to the left 4* or at a 10* angle to the barrels centerline.
you won't even know it without doing the initial measuring.

Blackwater
11-03-2015, 08:37 PM
I'd like to suggest that this thread be made a sticky. I think all of us are interested, even if not all of us plan to pursue this quest.

runfiverun
11-03-2015, 09:33 PM
all of the suggestions and tips I posted don't just work at higher velocity's they pertain to normal loads at normal distances or to hunting situations.

I understand this is just a hobby.
but if you are going to do something you might as well do it to the best of your ability.

knowing what you are working with or how to manipulate the unknown just a smidge to make things better is reason enough to gain the knowledge that's laid out on this site day after day.
who wouldn't rather shoot those 1/2-3/4" groups time after time all day long every time.
[yeah,,, yawn, boring I know]
but you/somebody are/is gonna have to put out the effort to make it happen. [shrug]
take the time to listen the gun/target/boolits will talk to you.

MBTcustom
11-05-2015, 01:24 AM
I think there is a very pronounced issue on this sight where everyone thinks that all these methods are religions disciplines that must be adhered to without ever considering one of the others. First of all, lets not get wrapped around the axle with techno babble. You're pushing a bullet out of the barrel with a charge of powder that's stronger than your projectile is. Period. All these methods are remarkably similar once you get under the surface, and they all attack the same basic problem.
If you have a projectile that doesn't want to shoot straight because it can't handle the trip down the barrel, you have only so many logical options:
1. You can compromise with your alloy and powder speed to get enough accuracy for the range you intend to shoot because you don't care what it does past that point be it 50, 100 or even more yards.
2. You can tip the scales by making your bullet hard enough to survive the trip accurately. Again, make it work at the longest range you intend to shoot, because it doesn't matter if the bullet will not hit what you will never shoot at. Obviously.
3. You can make it so that the part of the bullet that touches the barrel is sacrificial and departs the equation at the muzzle. Once again, accuracy will be obtained at the range you need it to be.
4. You can change the whole way your rifle effects the bullet so that there is nothing to compromise with, or protect against. Ie, instead of spending hours and hours learning how to make a baseball bat act like a boomerang, you simply change the shape of things so that it works better. You pay up front, and use the right tool for the job.

Now I'm of Scottish descent, and my people throw telephone poles and hammers for fun, just to see who's the best at hurling large blunt objects. Go to any Scottish festival, and you can observe this strange behavior, and you might be interested to see just how far a human being can throw these things. The contestants sometimes get into the sport pretty heavily and work at it all year to see if they can beat the opposition. There's something in the human brain that likes to take the road less traveled and do difficult things just to say they did them. In fact, none of this would be much fun if it were not difficult at some point. Some people like to meet challenges at 100 yards shooting cast bullets at 2400FPS out of a rifle that shouldn't be able to do that, and others like to shoot small groups at 300 yards and 3000FPS with a rifle that very much should be able to do that.
Just depends on what you like.
Now, being the contrary type that I am, I actually would like to spend more time in the first category as I think it would be cooler than anything to shoot 2400FPS with a 10 twist rifle, because all my 10 twist rifles up to this point have not been able to get past 1900FPS. Unfortunately, I have not the time nor the money to pursue that, I have slow twist rifles a plenty that are made to shoot HV, and with powder, primers and lead being as "catch as catch can" as they are, I generally want a solution that gets me there quickly and effectively with what I have for components and what I have in the way of extra time (very little of that these days). It's worth it to me to buy powder 8lb at a time to save on gas, and it's worth it to me to pay to switch the barrel on a rifle so it's suited to the purpose at hand and saves me money and time. (I am not however, going to go trade in my pickup truck for a new hybrid gas sipper. You have to draw the line somewhere. LOL!)
That's where I'm at now. Back in 2011, I was broke as a duck, but I had some time to burn, so paper patch was the method I worked on. That method eats time like there's no tomorrow if you're going for HV, and thank the Lord I'm a machinist so I could make the sizing dies I needed (I sure couldn't afford to buy them. I think I ended up making five or six different sizers).

Point is, we are all in different places with our personal skill sets, expendable income, and threshold for pai......patience. I think the low RPM method is the cheapest, fastest, easiest, and most useful at longer ranges any way you slice it, and that makes it the best way for me at this time, but there's more than one way to skin this cat, and it's fun to experiment with different loads and find a load that does more than most people expect it to. Only you can decide which method is better for you.

Maybe tomorrow I can post links to the threads that deal with each of the four methods. Feel free to help me consolidate them all here. They are scattered all over the place and I would really like to have links to most of them in one thread (and in order) as a reference for those who are trying to decide what to try first and how to go about it. I want to keep this thread on track as a general overview of the HV disciplines that points to the places where all the nitty gritty details have been hammered out.
Thanks!

oldblinddog
11-05-2015, 01:35 AM
How about a High Velocity Cast Boolits​ sub forum and move all those threads there? Moderators?

Bjornb
11-05-2015, 06:23 AM
How about a High Velocity Cast Boolits​ sub forum and move all those threads there? Moderators?

Brilliant idea. I second that.

MBTcustom
11-05-2015, 11:45 AM
Alright, Here are a few threads pertaining to each of the four methods:

High RPM method. (HV at set range with standard twist rates)
This thread seems to be the most concerted attempt to demonstrate this method's effectiveness and show a path to success. In it, you can see how to shoot over 2700FPS at a set 100 yards.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255753-high-velocity-with-cast/page71


Copper enhanced alloy method.
This is a Sticky in the Lead and Lead Alloy's section.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further


Smokeless HV paper patching.
pdawg-shooter is the author of this thread, and I see him as the resident expert on HV paper patching on castboolits.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?154034-Paper-patching-what-works-for-me
and this is a post by geargnasher that is a simply brilliant demonstration of a rags to riches path to success with paper patching.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?119953-Questions-on-basic-theory-and-technique-of-paper-patching


Low RPM method (using slow twist barrels to achieve excellent HV results in excess of 3000FPS)
There are so many thread dedicated to this subject, but few are as purely on topic as this one:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?252332-Testing-the-30XCB
Here are two threads by the patron of the low RPM method: Larry Gibson. The information in these threads wound up being spot on for 30 caliber projectiles, and if you intend to reach your HV/long range goals in this way, these two threads should be carefully read and applied.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208186-RPM-Threshold-barrel-twist-velocity-chart

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208186-RPM-Threshold-barrel-twist-velocity-chart

runfiverun
11-05-2015, 12:01 PM
i'll see what I can do about the sub-section thing.

oldblinddog
11-05-2015, 10:31 PM
I think this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?120735-Cast-bullet-accuracy-and-trailing-edge-failure and all those threads on the RPM threshold should go in there too.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208186-RPM-Threshold-barrel-twist-velocity-chart

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?245302-RPM-Threshold-A-Tale-of-Three-Twists-Chapter-II

MBTcustom
11-05-2015, 10:51 PM
I definitely agree about the second two links. They are pivotal benchmarks to the lowRPM method.
The first one kind of falls under general "you better pay attention to this" information for casters of all disciplines. My thread titled "consistency applied" falls into that category as well.

centurion20000
05-17-2016, 11:25 PM
Dumb question so please forgive me as I'm still a newbie at casting.

Has anyone compiled data on the various powder coats and logged various effects on the RPM Threshold values regarding lead alloy, speed and accuracy?

Thanks.

runfiverun
05-18-2016, 01:17 AM
not really.
there is one pretty good thread in the powder coat section dealing with the higher velocity's and powder coating.
nobody has really been able to apply powder coat in an even enough method for anybody going fast to even bother taking notice.
they are watching they just don't see any advantage.,,,,,, yet.

centurion20000
05-22-2016, 04:03 PM
not really.
there is one pretty good thread in the powder coat section dealing with the higher velocity's and powder coating.
nobody has really been able to apply powder coat in an even enough method for anybody going fast to even bother taking notice.
they are watching they just don't see any advantage.,,,,,, yet.

Got a link? Thanks.

Artful
05-22-2016, 04:28 PM
He might be referring to this one
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?220557-Real-Accuracy-(2-moa-or-less)-with-Coated-Rifle-Bullets-at-1800-fps-or-greater