Ruger #1 work-up questions

[CHeatermk3]

First i'd like to thank ClayM and others on his "Lust for Ruger #1..." thread for re-kindling my own desire for another #1.

When I followed a lead from that thread(don't remember whose) to the Lipsey's specials, I had a small debate with myself then decided on the #1AH in 7,62x39.

I won't get into the details of my thought process but went w/the x39 due to being impressed with the accuracy potential and wanting to see what it could do in a non-magazine gun.

I loaded up some fireform loads, in virgin IMI cases using 23.9gn 2230 WLR primers and the NOE CTL-313-150 RF Ranch dog boolit, seated deeply enough to chamber without touching the lands, whis puts the bottom of the check just starting past the neck-shoulder junction. I used 5 rounds of factory ammo to get sighted in at 50, then went to my 10 fireforming rounds.

The first 2 went where they were aimed, then I fired another one, and --Uh-Oh--the action was jammed-could not get the underlever to open and extract the spent case.

The first two had slightly flattened primers that were also very slightly set-back showing a slight bright scrape-mark at the 6 o'clock position but the edges were rounded; guessing the third primer had set back enough to catch the firing pin and prevent opening, I removed the scope and, with the soft side of my mallet gently tapped the top of the falling block while pushing the lever down as you would to normally open/eject. After about 15-20 taps the action opened up and spat out the empty.

The spent case showed a gouge in the primer consistent with my theory as to what had happened. After a few days of wondering about WHY this should have happened, I decided to post here and take whatever lumps I've got coming for abusing this fine rifle, and seek the council of those with more experience with the #1 action.

The remaining 15 factory rounds went off and functioned as they should, after I re-mounted the scope.

What the heck am I doing wrong?

[Clay M]

I doubt you have hurt your rifle. The Ruger #1 is very strong.
Looking at the Lyman cast bullets handbook, I would try some different powders.
If you have any: Unique, SR-4759, IMR 4227, 5744,IMR 4198 or RL 7 I would try those powders .
I suspect RL 7 will work very well.

If you don't have a copy of the Lyman Cast bullets handbook , I would recommend you start with that.

That rifle and caliber should be a winner with cast bullets..

Hope this helps.

[CHeatermk3]

Thank you Clay. I have on hand all of the powders you mentioned except RL-7 and I do have the most recent edition of the Lyman CBH.

I'm still wondering what could cause the primer to set back far enough to keep the firing pin from dis-engaging; this is what kept the action from opening. Here's what I'm theorizing may have happened:

The virgin case, being at minimum dimensionally, sat at the bottom of the chamber. This is evidenced by the off-center firing pin indentation, high at 12 oclock, of the first two shells. At the moment of ignition, the primer set back, followed almost simultaneously by the case expanding to seal the chamber(no smoke on neck of fired cases) shifts the position of the case, tending to center it in the chamber. This "captured" the firing pin before it could retract into the breechblock, causing the jam-up.

Does this sound likely? Maybe I need to be using a faster powder--I see that all the ones you suggest are faster than 2230.

Anyway I'm reluctant to do any more fireforming and will certainly not be using this particular load in my #1 anymore!

[Clay M]

A lot of powders may work, but the ones I listed are very commonly used for cast bullets.
I suggested Rel 7 because I have shot my best cast bullet groups in various calibers with that powder.

[Clay M]

IMR 3031 is the other powder I would exhaust the possibilities with in that caliber..
That an H 4895..
H..not IMR
With one of those three powders I could make that rifle shoot,but I am not sure about the bullet design.
The Ruger #1 is very load sensitive, so expect to spend some time with it.
Some days I love them, and others not so much.
They are beautiful rifles and constitute a challenge..
I guess that is my excuse for owning them..

[CHeatermk3]

I have a couple pounds of H4895 and a sealed tin of IMR-3031 from '80's production it was willed to me when a friend passed.

I'm just puzzled by this rifle--for example, fired cases from factory Privi Partisan 123gn soft points, seem noticeably hotter than the fireform load mentioned in my OP. However, the PPU fired cases will not accept a .313 boolit, the GC just barely starts into the mouth and stops half-way up the check--the fired cases(IMI) that locked up the gun will freely allow the same boolit with room to spare.

I guess I just don't know how to load for this type of action--the only ammo I made for the 270 I had 25 years ago was f/l sized to facilitate a quick reload in the field.

Also, fired cases from the factory stuff show a .001-.0015" expansion at the web; my fireform load does not sxpand the case head at all.

???

Maybe I should try the fired factory cases with a start load from the Lyman book--I have some of the Lee T/L 312-165 boolits that I sized 313--I'll re-size in my Lee die that gives me a .3115 boolit.

[Clay M]

I apologize, I am not familiar with the cases that are available for that rifle.
I do know however that a lot of military bass is very thick and will run the pressures up considerably..

For cast bullet you will probably have to get a special tapered expander plug.
I always use them anyway.
No scraped lead when you seat a bullet, you may as well throw it away.

[flashhole]

You may have had a case with a large primer pocket. You didn't experience the problem more than once. Get rid of that case.

[CHeatermk3]

I use the Lyman M-die. I mentioned the difference in the inside dia. of the case necks because it is another thing I don't understand about this situation. The IMI cases are about the same wall thickness, but the necks are so short it's difficult to get a good reading with the ball mike I have(RCBS).

I have the 20 PPU cases to work with; I'll save the IMI cases for my M85 which was way easier to work with.

Guess I'll just hafta shoot up some more factory ammo----:?

[Clay M]

Come up with the most uniform brass you can for the rifle..
I use match quality brass for my '06 because it is one more variable that I can control.
In the old days I always hated weighing and sorting cases, so I am happy that Norma and Lapua make case for the 06 and .308 win so I no longer have to do that.

[CHeatermk3]

At this point it's more about function than accuracy.

I tried one round using the same load, same primer, powder, charge, boolit, alloy, size; changed the case to a fireformed PPU case.

The fired case looked as I expected it to--no backed out, flattened-looking primer so I guess I'll save the IMI brass for the bolt gun and proceed with the work-up using PPU cases.

PS-About the Norma and Lapua brass--I've gotten Lapua from Midway that varied quite a bit in weight--seemed as though there were three different lots of brass in the same 100-count box. This was 7,62x54r brass I got several years ago to use in CBA Military rifle matches--I just weighed and kept the three main weight groups together and shot them in order during a match. Point is just because it says Lapua on the label a guy should still check them out--of course.

I should talk--It totally slipped by me that I was dealing with military cases--it only says "Military" in the name (Israeli Military Industries= IMI)!

[nekshot]

I use those cci primers for automatics on questionable primer situations concerning primer strength to hold together.

[nekshot]

I noticed you are using cast, get LVR powder and forget the other stuff for cast. Check out Larry Gibson's thread on LVR in a 7.62x39, might be labeled Jr's load test. I love this cartridge for cast and LVR is all I use now. My guns like real haevy boolits and so does LVR!

[Mica_Hiebert]

my hawkeye has a 310 bore you might be trying to shove a tight bullet down the tube...

[Clay M]

Just opened a new box of Lapua .30/06 brass. Most of the brass weighs within .5 a grain, but about every tenth piece varies as much as 3 grains.
The Norma brass I have been using is more consistent..
My Nosler brass weighs with .5 a grain ,but it may vary from box to box.In other words you can't mix boxes.

So what you are saying is correct, you have to check the all brass.

The Lapua brass is also 20 grains heavier, so I will have to reduce max loads I am using with the Norma..

In the older days I used Winchester brass and sorted it into lots. I had to spend a good bit of time on case prep.
I do like the Nosler brass ,because it is ready to load..
but I have had some Nosler .308 win brass with extra tight primer pockets..
When I called Nosler they said it was because I used Fed 210 primers.

[CHeatermk3]

Well today I found time to do a bit with the #1. I took the fired brass from the box of Privi ammo and prepped it, then loaded 4 each of basicly 2 loads-- using AA1680 at 21 and 22 grains; tried the NOE TLC-313-150=RF RD sized .3115 and .314(this is how they drop with my 2:1 WW:Pb, the Pb is salvaged from a defunct jacketed bullet operation my son got from his concrete cutting job).

Tried 4 rounds at 50yds each way, plus 4 rounds to get the scope back to something resembling zero.

All good news as far as I'm concerned. The fired cases were as expected, no lock-ups no backed-out primers; function is normal. WHEW!

The rifle seems to prefer the .3115 sizing; I got a cloverleaf and a flier with the 21 grain load/.3115 boolit.

The 22gn/.3115 load opened up to 1.5" and the 22/.314 load shot a bit worse.

Next time I'll work down from 21.5gn 1680 with .3115" boolits and see where it goes..

Sorry no pix yet maybe later tonite.
Nekshot--I have lvr but want to wring out with 1680 first

Mica--It seems that Clay hit the nail on the head with his military brass observation. I have 100 PPU cases on the way from Powder Valley that should get here Monday then I can get crackin'.

After I get some promising results at 50 I'll take it to 100.



152597152598

These are today's pix--got the date wrong and shot 21.1 & 22.1 not 21&22.
No wonder I was having trouble--don't know what day it is--well at least my bench is organized and uncluttered.

[Maven]

PM sent, CH....mk3

[CHeatermk3]

Got some testing done today with the #1 7,62x39.

The Privi Partisan(PPU) cases got here Monday-I weighed them on my little El cheapo Frankford Arsenal electronic scale with surprising results. Out of 100 cases, 44 of them weighed 112.0-112.9 grains. The lightest of the 100 weighed 111.3gn and the heaviest went 115.3gn. There were 6 each of the 111gn weights; likewise 6 ea of the 115--4 were 115.0, 1-115.2 1-115.3.

That's plus or minus 2.5gn if you call the median weight 113.3gn (close enuff for me anyway) so the whole batch varied by a bit less than 5% which is match quality I think.
The shortest case was 1.512" and the longest 1.519; I did not F/L size before getting the length measured but ran them all up onto the first step of my .31 short M-die to round them out, then cut them all to 1.511 and gave them an 11* chamfer. Inside deburred the flash holes and called it good enough for a hunting gun to be used in the brush--a long shot hereabouts is 75-80 yds.

Shooting the NOE CTL-313-150-RF RD boolit sized to .3115, checked w/Hornady checks then 2X LLA and 1X BLL. Not very impressed with the AA 1680 loads of 20.6, 20.0; but the results I'm having probably have as much to do with me getting used to the Ruger, my set-up, and the way the Ruger fits me. I need to shorten the buttstock a bit; also the scope needs to be a bit closer to my eye, which relates to the stock length as the scope is as far to the rear as it can go in the rings. I'm using a dog-gone good large front and bunny ear rear for the rest. This set-up has worked well for me in the field but is somewhat lacking in fit here at home using my sturdy but a bit low picnic table as a bench.

Here's some pix; hopefully they'll be in the proper order time-wise...

153201153202
153203153204

Hopefully, you can see that at best, my results to date are inconclusive; I need to change things a bit; I added a target with some factory rounds, the cast loads shoot about 10 inches lower but do show promise.

I'll be using a peep sight for hunting so what I've got with the H322 loadings is good to go, for now.

Need to get shooting over the chrony too...

[MOA]

Thank you Clay. I have on hand all of the powders you mentioned except RL-7 and I do have the most recent edition of the Lyman CBH.

I'm still wondering what could cause the primer to set back far enough to keep the firing pin from dis-engaging; this is what kept the action from opening. Here's what I'm theorizing may have happened:

The virgin case, being at minimum dimensionally, sat at the bottom of the chamber. This is evidenced by the off-center firing pin indentation, high at 12 oclock, of the first two shells. At the moment of ignition, the primer set back, followed almost simultaneously by the case expanding to seal the chamber(no smoke on neck of fired cases) shifts the position of the case, tending to center it in the chamber. This "captured" the firing pin before it could retract into the breechblock, causing the jam-up.

Does this sound likely? Maybe I need to be using a faster powder--I see that all the ones you suggest are faster than 2230.

Anyway I'm reluctant to do any more fireforming and will certainly not be using this particular load in my #1 anymore!

Forget the fireformed brass! Use standard brass and most of your problems with this issue and yoir #1 will go away

[Char-Gar]

I don't see any real big mystery here. Either shoot full snort factory loads or handloads to the same level to fire form your brass. Then clean the barrel of metal fouling and start your cast bullet reloading.

I am not up to a long post about why this is so, you will just have to do it.