paper patched minie?

[Thundermaker]

Here's my situation. I've just acquired a Euro arms 1853 Enfield. I would like to make period correct cartridges for it, complete with paper patched pritchett bullet.

Now, it's not so important to me to have a smooth sided pritchett bullet with a base plug. A regular minie would do. It's just that paper cartridges seem so convenient in the field, and not having to unwrap the bullet seems all the more so. I also like the idea of not having to clean lead fouling out of a barrel with a closed breech.

I've read conflicting information. Some say that only a rifle with the original progressive depth rifling will handle this type of ammunition. Others say that you just have to make the patched bullet a bit closer to bore diameter than you would with the aforementioned barrels.

Has anyone tried paper patched minies in a rifle with a conventional barrel?

[Good Cheer]

For the .69 Fremont. The double wrap of weak paper comes right off.
Haven't made paper patched for the Armisport P53 yet but I'm getting around to it.

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/Big%20Chief%20Buffalo%20Nickel_zpsxr11pjbc.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/Big%20Chief%20Buffalo%20Nickel_zpsxr11pjbc.jpg.htm l)

[Good Cheer]

The extremely shallow rifling in the Armisport .69 made it tough to get something to shoot.
The paper had to be something not as strong as rag bond like I use for other boolits.
Those above are actually made with a Big Chief tablet and shoot pretty good once the powder charge got worked out.

[Thundermaker]

That's certainty an interesting bullet there.

[fouronesix]

There's all manner of info out there via normal google search. Some is in video form.

I've shot various kinds of paper patched and paper cartridges with Miniés in some of my muskets. I can't tell any difference between shooting a paper wrapped Minié out of a conventional type rifled bore vs one of progressive depth design.

There's some pretty good info here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK-MdBJJw-0glJZgw8dO1Ag

[Thundermaker]

Well, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[fouronesix]

The link I posted had all manner of stuff including some about making paper cartridges. I don't know if it included this youtube video of shooting the paper cartridges for speed- averaging about 20 seconds per shot with the Enfield.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrQs74z0lg

The particulars of this as discussed in the thread, the shooter says he was concentrating on the speed potential so accuracy was secondary.

[Good Cheer]

That's certainty an interesting bullet there.

It's a Lyman 57730 bored out to make an adjustable length smooth sided hollow base to fit the oversized .696" bore on my Armisport barrel.

[Thundermaker]

The link I posted had all manner of stuff including some about making paper cartridges. I don't know if it included this youtube video of shooting the paper cartridges for speed- averaging about 20 seconds per shot with the Enfield.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrQs74z0lg

The particulars of this as discussed in the thread, the shooter says he was concentrating on the speed potential so accuracy was secondary.

I'm subscribed to his channel, and he'll cause me to call the rifle shoppe for a baker kit before long.

He actually did some 400 yard shooting with his paper cartridges, so they do have some accuracy. Of course, his gun is a parker hale, which has the progressive depth rifling.

Upon further research, I've determined that progressive depth rifling was used to maintain accuracy with grossly undersized projectiles. This would have been a problem for militaries trying to provide standardized ammunition for millions of muskets with a plethora of bore sizes.

It's not so much of a problem for a hobby shooter with access to custom sizing dies.

[fouronesix]

I have an early, low serial number English made Parker Hale that I shoot quite a bit. Additionally, I shoot various other repro and original 577/58 cal rifle muskets- P53s, Zouaves, M61s and M63s. My loading objective for these rifle muskets is being able to shoot 10 or more shots without forceful ramming or having to swab the bore. The paper patched or paper cartridge Miniés I've experimented with usually show accuracy about equal to regular Crisco lubed Miniés.

As a general rule the closer to bore diameter the better the accuracy. But, even that rule is not 100%. Coincidentally, I was out a couple of weeks ago shooting some slightly undersized (.003" less than bore diameter) Crisco lubed Miniés out of an original M61 that yielded one of the best 10 shot targets (pictured) I've ever shot with that particular gun. Go figure.

1st shot out of cold clean bore @ 11 o'clock. Shots 2-10 wallowed out hole @ 1 o'clock.

[Thundermaker]

I'd just like to be able to load my rifle in a somewhat historical fashion.

Not a bad group for a gun that's a century and a half old.

[dromia]

I use pre made paper and plastic tube cartridges for my Enfields. Repro and original.

See this link for how I do it: http://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22251

NOE have just done a run of Pritchett moulds for me in 0.566" and 0.550" and they produce most excellent bullets.

[JeffinNZ]

You mean like this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN1003.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JeffinNZ/media/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN1003.jpg.html)

.40al hollow base PPed. The mould throws 40-1 at .396 so I patch them to .402 and they shoot brilliantly.

This is 3 at 50m.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN0591-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JeffinNZ/media/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN0591-1.jpg.html)

[fouronesix]

This thread probably fits better in the Muzzleloader section but no problem in either place… same mod covers both :)

Nice paper patched target! Yes, they can shoot well and I'm always amazed at the accuracy potential of rifle muskets. Also, glad to see dromia post here as he is really into paper cartridges for the Enfield and does a good job promoting the discipline.

[Good Cheer]

The muzzleloader section? Oh my goodness no!
Black powder paper patches is black powder paper patches!
The only difference is that the more primitive, uh less refined, require a bit of finesse.

[Buckshot]

..............I have a Parker-Hale P58 Naval Pattern 2 band that is nicely accurate, but not so much with paper patched Minie's bullets.

http://www.fototime.com/0744963E3A064B6/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/9CB2A54931E4F5E/standard.jpg

The left photo is 5 @ 50 yards. NEI 500gr Target Minie', 70grs of Elephant 2Fg. The rifle is also sensitive to lube, and where you put it. The right photo is 5 each at 50 yards of 70.0 grs of Swiss 2Fg under and old 505gr Challanger Minie'. This rifle likes the lube in the base cavity. With Crisco you can barely get off 10 rounds before you're hammering the slug home. Using Bore Butter you can shoot all day long.

Many years ago a guy in Louisiana and I hooked up as we were both shooting P-H Whitworths. He said he had a mould cut for a 58 caliber Minie' that he could paper patch up to shoot in his '61 Springfield, and would I like to have some to patch and try in my Enfield. Naturally I said sure :-) He sent me 25 of'em so I figured I'd go with 3 round groups. They weighed 475 grs and had a half round cup base, and 4 narrow grooves. I patched them up and they were a trifle snuggish in the bore.

I tried lube in the base only to start with a charge of 40grs of Elephant 3 Fg. I gave that up as I could hear them whistling as they headed downrange to land against the 100 yard berm maybe 4' apart. I increased the charge to 70grs of 2Fg with lube in the base. Then I tried wiping the bore between shots, then I tried lube on the patch and none in the base cavity. I never got anything close to a group. Best was 3 shots which actually hit the target at 50 yards, but nothing to be proud of. The only thing I can figure out is that something was happening to mess up the patches. The P58 has 5 grooves of equal width as the lands, plus the grooves are much deeper at the breech. I thought the paper might be getting messed up somehow when the Minie' expanded? I'd see the cloud of confetti fluttering around, but would also find pieces as large as a quarter. Anyway, that was my one and only attempt with patched Minie' bullets.

http://www.fototime.com/96EFF680D8DB6F7/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/E38BA7F52BCE965/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/1C7ECABF18D1F4A/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/67AD653EE8BA1D0/standard.jpg

..................Buckshot

[Nobade]

Since the Enfield, with its progressive depth rifling, was designed to shoot paper patched smooth sided Pritchett bullets, I would think it could be made to do so again today. Dromia has had NOE make a mould for those bullets and has shown good success making the issue style paper cartridge ammo for them. But a Pritchett bullet and a Minie' are two different things, with the Minie' designed to be shot naked. Patching one to get it to fit in a bore too big for it seems viable, especially in the repro rifles with constant depth rifling, but for best results I would think you would be better off with the correct bullet.

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

One method of paper patch I did try with conventional Miniés that worked very well was to use very thin paper and only a single wrap. The wrap didn't have to be neat either. The width of the paper covering from the leading edge of the shank down to a little overlap into the hollow base. Of course for any paper patch endeavor to work, the bullet needs to be small enough diameter to accommodate the paper. What seemed to work for Miniés (for me) was to use thin and relatively "weak" paper, single wrapped with the final PP'd diameter to be about .001" smaller than bore and to wipe between shots.

Another thing I found that wasn't surprising, once I thought about it a while, is that if a style of Minié (or conical for that matter) doesn't want to shoot without paper patching it likely doesn't want to shoot paper patched either…. and vice versa. Two examples I tried that support that theory are the Lee Improved Minié and the Lee REAL. I have no quarrel with those who swear by them, but life's too short for me to use up anymore time or effort on them.

Since those paper patching experiments, I've shelved the molds for the Miniés that don't want to shoot and have acquired good Minié molds to cover all the various bore sizes of my muskets. There is no need to paper patch Miniés that work well without being patched. For equal accuracy it's much simpler to use the correct type and diameter Minié, smear on Crisco, load and fire. HC re-enacting using British paper cartridge loads or Pritchett loads is a different story.

[dromia]

I'd just like to be able to load my rifle in a somewhat historical fashion.

.

Moved this to the muzzle loading forum as the OP seems to want to load Pritchett style cartridges rather than a separately paper patched Minie.

[Thundermaker]

Moved this to the muzzle loading forum as the OP seems to want to load Pritchett style cartridges rather than a separately paper patched Minie.

More or less. I'm just wondering if they'll work in a standard bore without the progressive depth rifling. From the replies I've received, I think it could be made to work.

[dromia]

There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't work, interestingly the final 0.550" version of the Pritchett cartridge with the clay plug was said to be the most accurate.

[Thundermaker]

I went on the NOE site, and I saw that they also make a mold for the plugs. I guess you make them from bondo?

Would be nice if I could get a sample of both diameters to see which one works best.

BTW, how much powder do you use with those, dromia?

[varsity07840]

Here's my situation. I've just acquired a Euro arms 1853 Enfield. I would like to make period correct cartridges for it, complete with paper patched pritchett bullet.

Now, it's not so important to me to have a smooth sided pritchett bullet with a base plug. A regular minie would do. It's just that paper cartridges seem so convenient in the field, and not having to unwrap the bullet seems all the more so. I also like the idea of not having to clean lead fouling out of a barrel with a closed breech.

I've read conflicting information. Some say that only a rifle with the original progressive depth rifling will handle this type of ammunition. Others say that you just have to make the patched bullet a bit closer to bore diameter than you would with the aforementioned barrels.

Has anyone tried paper patched minies in a rifle with a conventional barrel?

If you cast a minie that's pure lead and no more than .002 under bore size and use the correct lube, you will not have to worry about leading.

Duane

[Thundermaker]

If you cast a minie that's pure lead and no more than .002 under bore size and use the correct lube, you will not have to worry about leading.

Duane

Yes, but it would be historically incorrect. Then again, so is a cast minie.

[fouronesix]

Yes, but it would be historically incorrect. Then again, so is a cast minie.

I'm not 100% certain but I believe the Pritchetts were originally both cast and swaged- so either would be historically correct. Most Miniés were cast, because swaging a grooved bullet was/is somewhat impractical.

As I understand the definition, a Pritchett is a smooth-sided type of hollow base conical with a thick skirt that commonly incorporated a wood plug in the hollow base to help initiate skirt expansion upon firing. A true Minié by most definitions is a relatively thin skirted hollow base conical with lube/scraping grooves.

Here are two Civil War era originals. Pritchett and Minié

[dromia]

I went on the NOE site, and I saw that they also make a mold for the plugs. I guess you make them from bondo?

Would be nice if I could get a sample of both diameters to see which one works best.

BTW, how much powder do you use with those, dromia?

I use 69 gns TPPH as that was the standard load, I make the plugs from clay or Milliput if I am only needing a couple of dozen or so as that doesn't need firing.

It is all covered in the link in my previous post, I load the same regardless of the bullet.

[Col4570]

I use 69 gns TPPH as that was the standard load, I make the plugs from clay or Milliput if I am only needing a couple of dozen or so as that doesn't need firing.

It is all covered in the link in my previous post, I load the same regardless of the bullet.
Dromia,do you cast the Clay Plugs into the base or cast them separately in a mould.I was wondering if they need to be partialy oversize and loose to achieve expansion of the bullet.
Regards.

[Buckshot]

...............I bought a mould from Raphine many years back for a 580gr Pritchett. The skirt seemed quite thin. Like that used for a lightly loaded target Minie' so I made a swage die to thicken the skirt.

http://www.fototime.com/5A94DEA526A1BFB/standard.jpg

On the right is an 'As Cast' Pritchett, and to it's left the base. To the left is the base of the swaged Pritchett which shows the heavier skirt, then the swaged Pritchett in profile (it's a wee tad shorter), and finally the nose with a shallow HP added.

http://www.fototime.com/B35265B203A27EA/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7BAE9A1545DD0FC/standard.jpg

Using the same swage die you can make Pritchett styles from 'whatever' design. In this case the Lee 'Trashcan' target Minie wadcutter.

................Buckshot

[dromia]

Dromia,do you cast the Clay Plugs into the base or cast them separately in a mould.I was wondering if they need to be partialy oversize and loose to achieve expansion of the bullet.
Regards.

I use moulds, home made, NOE, Coyote, other Minies depending on what gives the best slightly oversize plug for the bullet I happen to be using. I prefer to have the plug standing slightly proud of the base of the bullet as I have had skirt separation which I put down to undersize plugs plugs slightly inside the cavity. The plugs are just seated loose the paper wrapping holds it all in place.

[Col4570]

dromia, thanks for the info,I will try a few.perhaps you may have seen my input regarding the Large Calibre Whitworth Bullet (.568 ) with hollow Base and hollow Nose I have been experimenting with.The Hollow Nose I will keep the wooden 1/4" Plug.

[fgd135]

I bought a NOE .566" pritchett mould. After some false starts getting it hot enough to cast properly, at the end of the last session I had about 60 almost perfect 570 grain slugs. I wrapped them a la the correct mid-1850's pattern cartridge, charged with 2 1/2 drams of 3fg.
Here are the first four rounds at 100 yards fired in my 1858 Parker Hale naval pattern rifle:
153952
Not bad for a first attempt.
Subsequent groups shot in a PH 1853 rifle musket, and a Pedersoli 1853 rifle musket, were comparable, or slightly better. Overall, very pleased. I constructed the cartridge using 9# 25% cotton onion skin paper for the outer wrapper, and dip-lubed the bases with hot SPG. This brought the overall diameter to a bit more than .575". I think with a bit of tweaking with the powder charge I will shrink the group sizes considerably.
For the last couple of years I've been resizing Lyman 575213NS to .568" and wrapping the same way, in paper Pritchett cartridges,and also found accuracy to be excellent all around--and as a side benefit, there is much less fouling shot-to-shot than using nekkid, lubed miniés.
In the meantime, I have paper-patched some 575213NS (unsized) bullets and will be using them in a Snider, almost a muzzle loader. If it works, it will save me the expense of a separate Snider mould.