First shootiing with a 1898 Krag

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have recently come into a Krag. It must have been a rifle when issued way back when - now it has been righteously cut down to carbine length, complete with a saddle-ring from somewhere. The whole outfit has been refinished with a fairly attractive 'brown' color. This looks OK but seems to have reduced the 'slickness' of the typical Krag action to some extent.

The sights are issue, the front blade being transferred nicely to the shorted barrel from the original rifle. The trigger is kind of like squeezing a ripe plumb - no let off - creeps all the way until the rifle eventually goes off.

Anyway, the bore is bright. The throat is washed out somewhat but well within working limits. I measured the bore, finding it to be 0.307 in the grooves and a 0.300 bore.

My loads are with a perfectly suitable LEE C309-200-R that casts 0.310 on the body and 0.2995 on the noses: 180 rounds have been loaded and fired - no satisfactory results have been attained. The groups sometimes show nice 4 or five fairly close but always there are rather striking flyers that spoil any hope for real, reliable accuracy.

Here I'm looking for any help about Krag triggers, loads and/or bedding techniques.

Thanks for any assistance; Forrest

[Char-Gar]

There is not enough information to even begin to offer assistance. You made no mention, of the bullet alloy, lube, powder or charge or brass handling. You unacceptable result might very well be found here. It is too soon to blame the rifle.

Krag triggers have a long and creeply pull. But you should be able to feel when the sear is turned loose. Good work can be done with these trigger, but it takes some discipline. Huebner Concepts makes a good after market trigger.

Krag actions are held in the stock by the two very close screws, which leave the barrel somewhat on it's own. The barrel band is what hold it down. Most Krags do well in the issue stock, as long as somebody has not jacked with the bedding.

I have bedded a few Krag stocks and they have their peculiarities. The rear end of the magazine is what serves as a recoil lug and therefore the rear end of the magazine should be in firm contact with the wood. I use glas to bed the rear action screw and the rear bearing surface where the magazine contacts. I also bed the bottom of the magazine. A little glas at the point where the chamber lays in the stock is also a good idea.

Some pics of the rifle and the stock would be very helpful.

I feel compelled to say that your internal barrel measurements are most certainly wrong. Krag barrel groove diameters run anywhere from .308 to .314 with the most common being .3095. I don't believe there every was a .307 groove diameter, which makes me think you didn't not clean the century of metal fouling out of the barrel first.

Most Krag barrels come with layers of metal fouling in them. You must clean this fouling out as close to bare metal as possible. You will never find cast bullet happiness in the Krag rifle until you do. This fouling acts like files striping alloy from the bullet as it goes down the barrel. Get some Wipe-Out foam cleaner and follow the directions, until your patches no longer come out green or blue.

Krag throats are quite large and most Krags do better with .312 bullets than anything smaller. I prefer .313 or .314 in my Krags. On, one of them I have to neck turn the brass to allow bullets that large to chamber with a smidge of room left for the case to expand and turn the bullet loose. My three Krags with issue barrels run .308, .3095 and .312 in the grooves. .313 - .314 bullets do well in all of them. I find that 2 - 2.5 MOA accuracy is fairly easy to do with cast bullets in Krag rifles.

That is all I can do now, with the information I have.

[FAsmus]

Char:

You say: There is not enough information to even begin to offer assistance. You made no mention, of the bullet alloy, lube, powder or charge or brass handling. Your unacceptable result might very well be found here. It is too soon to blame the rifle.

Me: Multiple loads have been tried: RCBS 30-165-SIL, SAECO 315, LEE C309-200-R over things like 20 & 21 gr 4759, 27 gr Varget, 28.5 gr Varget, 28 gr 4895 and 10 gr Unique. The RCBS & SAECO were air-cooled the LEE quench hardened. All sized @ 0.3105. White Label BAC lube. Alloy is conventional (old) WW + 2% tin + a bit of antimony.

Brass is sorted by head-stamp from a large bag of mixed R-P, Peters and Winchester.

C: Krag triggers have a long and creeply pull. But you should be able to feel when the sear is turned loose. Good work can be done with these triggers, but it takes some discipline. Huebner Concepts makes a good after market trigger.

F: I'll go look for that after-market trigger. ~ Sure I can tell when the sear is released: The rifle fires!

C: Krag actions are held in the stock by the two very close screws, which leave the barrel somewhat on it's own. The barrel band is what holds it down. Most Krags do well in the issue stock, as long as somebody has not jacked with the bedding.

I have bedded a few Krag stocks and they have their peculiarities. The rear end of the magazine is what serves as a recoil lug and therefore the rear end of the magazine should be in firm contact with the wood. I use glass to bed the rear action screw and the rear bearing surface where the magazine contacts. I also bed the bottom of the magazine. A little acraglass at the point where the chamber lays in the stock is also a good idea.

F: Thanks especially for this information: I'll go take a look and post the results back.

C: I feel compelled to say that your internal barrel measurements are most certainly wrong. Krag barrel groove diameters run anywhere from 0.308 to 0.314 with the most common being 0.3095. I don't believe there ever was a 0.307 groove diameter, which makes me think you didn't not clean the century of metal fouling out of the barrel first.


F: I carefully measured the bore at first. You just may be right about the ID since I recently picked up intact spent bullets, measured them and found the groove diameter at 0.3080. Really though, that isn't much since I size the basic as-cast bullets to 0.310 anyway.

C: Most Krag barrels come with layers of metal fouling in them. You must clean this fouling out as close to bare metal as possible. You will never find cast bullet happiness in the Krag rifle until you do. This fouling acts like files striping alloy from the bullet as it goes down the barrel. Get some Wipe-Out foam cleaner and follow the directions, until your patches no longer come out green or blue.

F: The spent bullets were acquired after over 100 cast bullets were fired. I know that this is plenty to clean out any old metal fouling. In any case accuracy continued unchanged even with a super-clean bore thereafter.

C: Krag throats are quite large and most Krags do better with .312 bullets than anything smaller. I prefer .313 or .314 in my Krags. On, one of them I have to neck turn the brass to allow bullets that large to chamber with a smidge of room left for the case to expand and turn the bullet loose. My three Krags with issue barrels run .308, .3095 and .312 in the grooves. .313 - .314 bullets do well in all of them. I find that 2 - 2.5 MOA accuracy is fairly easy to do with cast bullets in Krag rifles.

F: I have loaded and fired oversize bullets suitable to fit overly large throats. I know this sometimes works in the single-shot game but seldom with bottle-necked cases.

Good afternoon, - F

[cainttype]

Alternating Wipe-Out Foam overnight (or all day if I'm busy) with multiple passes of Bore-Tech Eliminator, when I'm able, has worked extremely well at removing serious copper and cupronickel fouling from barrels that had been thought useless... The Wipe-Out Accelerator is very useful for speeding up the cycles if you happen to be around the workshop and have the time.
I wouldn't expect any number of cast rounds fired to remove the type of fouling I'm referring too, but I can't honestly say that I've ever tried... and will continue doing what works well for me. YMMV

Shiny doesn't always mean fouling-free. It's possible to layer fouling from different metals, and that can complicate things a little, especially with these older rifles.
A good scrubbing and checking with effective cleaners wouldn't hurt anything, so that would be my first step... mainly because it's the easiest thing to do! lol
Good luck.

[Scharfschuetze]

Congrats on your recent acquisition! Krags are indeed a fun breed of rifle and almost perfect for cast boolit shooting.

My Krag has a pretty nice bore, albeit a bit oversize at .310." This may or may not pertain to yours as Krag dimensions seem to be all over the map; but I've found boolits sized to .313" with a .301-.302" nose to shoot well in mine.

My best loads use the Lyman 314299 projectile sized at the above .313" diameter. Surprisingly, this is the only rifle that I have where 5744 powder out performs SR 4759. I don't know why, but the difference in groups and consistency over the chronograph is striking.

Any boolit designed and sized for the 32/20 also shoots well in mine for plinking loads using Bullseye or Unique powder.

As for your trigger: the Krag trigger is what is commonly called a double stage trigger and has an initial take up of a few pounds. It should then tighten up and break cleanly at about four to five pounds on the second stage. This was the first double stage trigger used (in general issue rifles anyway) by the US Military. The following 1903, M1 Garand and M14 rifles all continued to use this very good system. The initial few pounds of pull reduces the pull necessary for the final stage which should break cleanly.

My Krag on a good day is about a 2 1/2 MOA rifle with my aging eyes. Here are the 314299 projectiles with a neck sized 30/40 case. 1,800 fps seems to be a sweet spot for uniformity and accuracy using this projectile in my Krag.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You've obviously been doing some research! I have a number of Krags and they're all individuals. I've got one that loves a 165 gr. cast lead spitzer with gas checks, and most of mine (not all) seem to be happy with boolits in the 180 gr. range. Again, mine don't all like the same powder, but IMR-4895 seems to get their majority vote. So what I'm saying is that maybe your particular rifle doesn't like the 200 gr. boolit. A couple of them shoot nice groups at 50 yds., and most of them I'd take deer hunting at 100 yds.; but realistically, none of them much past that distance with cast loads. I'd really like to see a couple of photos of your rifle if possible. Are you certain that it's a cutdown and not an original carbine? That can be pretty well determined from the serial number. Wouldn't want to do a bedding job on a rare collector item when there are so many cutdowns floating around to play with. Best wishes on solving your problem. About all you can do is keep experimenting until you hit the magic combination.

[Scharfschuetze]

Are you certain that it's a cutdown and not an original carbine?

Good point Gebirgsjager (Mountain Rifleman or Hunter). As I recall, there was an NRA carbine that was a modified rifle and I'm sure that Bannerman of New York probably professionally cut down more than a few rifles to carbine status.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yes Sir, Sharpshooter, the ones that the NRA sold were cut down by the government at the Benecia Arsenal in Calif. for civilian sale. Although not as valuable monetarily as an original carbine they are worth more than a basement sporter job, and are a recognized variation. The Bannerman rifles are great curiosities and likely a mixture of parts of Krags, M-1903, and 1917s. The fact that Forrest's has a saddle ring and a brown finish is interesting, and we need some photos!
DG

[tdoyka]

i would use gunslick foaming bore cleaner, then shooter's choice, then sweets 7.62, then gunslick, then shooters, then sweets, then gunslicks...:veryconfu. around day 3 i thought it was clean and then i put my lead slug down the barrel. there was black gunk and copper and God knows what else. it took another 2 or 3 days till it was spotless. mine is .3085".

since i hunt, mine is a bubba carbine(21 3/4" barrel)with a 1950-60's bishop's stock, i only ever tried one load with a bunch of different powders. mine is a 165gr ranch dog(.311") with 25.5gr of h4198. i've tried a bunch of loads, varget being the best(gives more recoil, hey, i'm stroke-abled!!!:bigsmyl2:) and rel7.

i don't know about after market triggers. but its like Scharfschuetze says, "a double stage trigger and has an initial take up of a few pounds. It should then tighten up and break cleanly at about four to five pounds on the second stage"

heres a few for you
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h273/tdoyka/1437086907624.1_zpsdmhys7lw.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/tdoyka/media/1437086907624.1_zpsdmhys7lw.jpg.html)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h273/tdoyka/1437087129684.4_zpsv8fo26tz.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/tdoyka/media/1437087129684.4_zpsv8fo26tz.jpg.html)
i think i lost the h4198, stupid 'puter!!!
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h273/tdoyka/14099383826951_zpsf7497e11.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/tdoyka/media/14099383826951_zpsf7497e11.jpg.html)

[Wolfer]

When I got my Krag I didn't slug it before shooting. I just loaded up some 311041's sized at as cast .309 with 16 gr of 2400
How accurate it is I don't know. What I do know is that it will put a boolit where the top of the bead is out past 100 yds.

Last year I bumped the powder up to 17 gr and killed one deer with it. I could probably go higher but it's very pleasnt to shoot as is and seems to be good enough for what I use it for.

I have no idea what the issue is with yours.

[Char-Gar]

Jacketed bullet fouling cannot be shot out with any number of rounds either cast or more jacketed. It can only be removed with the right chemicals and elbow grease.

[frnkeore]

Yes Sir, Sharpshooter, the ones that the NRA sold were cut down by the government at the Benecia Arsenal in Calif. for civilian sale. Although not as valuable monetarily as an original carbine they are worth more than a basement sporter job, and are a recognized variation. The Bannerman rifles are great curiosities and likely a mixture of parts of Krags, M-1903, and 1917s.
DG

I have a well sportized 1898 (by serial #) Krag. It has a 26" barrel, nice finish and a filled ram rod hole.

How is the NRA sporter identified, as well as the Bannerman.

Mines .300 x .310 groove. It has a Redfield "no drill" sight. A 311413 (.311 dia) will shoot 1.5", 5 shot groups @ 100 with 18.5 gr 4759, using a V target.

I also agree with using a amonia bore cleaner, to be sure that there is no copper and crude left in the bore.

Frank

[leadman]

The issue cartridges for the Krag contained cupro-nickel jacketed bullets. This is a difficult fouling to remove, shooting won't do it.
I plug the breech with a rubber plug and fill the bore with Hoppe's #9 and let it set overnight. Then drain it and clean it. I like to run some 600 grit lapping compound on a tight patch as this will let you know where the fouling is and it helps clean it out. JB Bore Paste will do this also just finer grit so it takes longer.
I have found for old mil-surp rifles that hard boolits around 18bhn and harder shoot better for me.
When the bore is clean slug just the throat and size the boolit to this dimension or plus .001". Also check the crown as it could be worn or nicked.

[cainttype]

I was gifted an '03 a few years back that was very pretty. The stock had been replaced with an attractive piece of well-fitted wood, and the external metalwork was excellent. The bore, however, looked like a sewer pipe, and the owner was convinced it was ruined.. I had access to new/unfired barrels, so the stocked action was very much appreciated.
As a general practice, I decided to clean the barrel as best I could before any other steps were taken.
Alternating soaks and scrubs while working, it was almost 2 full weeks before a clean patch ever emerged. I avoided really aggressive solutions because I had other things going, so a few pass-throughs with a brush, a few more patches, then another soak was convenient... Lots of scrubbing and elbow-grease later, it turned out that the barrel's internals were as good as the rest of the rifle.

Shooting cast before cleaning would have only added another layer of fouling to the many that were already there.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

frnkeore--I don't see a question mark, so don't know if you are asking how to identify them or making a statement? For all I know, you know more about it than I do. But in case you are asking--the NRA carbines are covered pretty extensively in Brophy's book "The Krag Rifle", with photos and text. Just a generalization, they were cut down from full length rifles, often unissued late production guns made in and after 1899. In general they look very much like an issue carbine, but do not have the saddle ring of earlier carbine models and the forend is shaped a little differently where it was cut off. The original carbines never had sling swivels, which was the purpose of the saddle ring, and that included the last model carbine made in 1899 which had neither the ring or swivels. The NRA carbines utilized the full length rifle's middle band with swivel as the barrel band, and since the donor rifle already had a rear swivel the NRA version had swivels. As for the Bannermans, they also receive some coverage in Brophy's book, and have been covered in several gun magazine articles with some photos including in Guns Magazine, October 2012, pg. 30, "The Rare and Remarkable Bannermans" by Holt Bodinson. There are others as well. It's hard to really nail down an exact description of Bannerman's rifles because, although they originally advertised specific models that had a certain appearance, like for example, a Krag carbine, they freely altered them with parts available as they ran out of other parts. There are rifles that are 90% Krag and those that are 10% Krag having only a Krag rear sight! They can be found with Mauser parts, 1917 Enfield parts, and 1903 Springfield parts, and many don't look exactly like any other specimen.
They aren't worth much money as gun collecting goes, but there is such a variety of them that a very interesting collection could be assembled. Gary James did a short article on them in The American Rifleman, September 2012, pg. 112. It must have been a gunsmith's dream to work at Bannerman's in the middle of huge piles of diverse parts and having the boss say, "Make us some rifles to sell." Or--maybe a nightmare.

[tdoyka]

Jacketed bullet fouling cannot be shot out with any number of rounds either cast or more jacketed. It can only be removed with the right chemicals and elbow grease.

that sir, should be put in along side of cast boolits logo!!!
i need a few more elbows and grease too!!!:bigsmyl2:

[Char-Gar]

that sir, should be put in along side of cast boolits logo!!!
i need a few more elbows and grease too!!!:bigsmyl2:

I am more than a little dumbfounded that anybody would thinks that cast bullets would remove jacket fouling from a barrel. The metal fouling is much harder than any lead alloy and heat and pressure welded to the inside of the barrel. I am equally dumbfounded that anybody would think looking at recovered fired cast bullets would in anyway indicate the amount of metal fouling in the barrel.

I am all in favor of creative thinking, but only if it works.

The old Krag barrels most often contain generations of alternating layers of jacket metal and powder fouling. Remove one layer of jacket metal and you will find a new layer of powder fouling. Remove the powder fouling and you will find another layer of jacket metal. It may seem like an endless task, but it is not. The new foaming cleaners will dramatically cut the cleaning time down to bare steel. Krags are a particular problems as the layers of jacket metal may very well be both gliding metal and cupro-nickle.

A bright bore may indicate the absence of micro-pits, but tells nothing about the layers of jacket metal fouling.

I bought my first Krag in 1960 and never had good results with cast bullet until 1984 or so when I discovered Sweets 7.62. After three weekends of applying Sweets, I finally plugged the breech with a hardwood down, filled the barrel with Sweets and let it sit for a month in my garage. That did the trick.

Jacket metal in the pores of the steel won't harm the accuracy, but jacket metal on top of the grooves certainly will. It is quite easy to determine when the metal from on top of the steel is gone as from there on out, there will only be traces of color on the patches. You can stop then.

[FAsmus]

Char:


you say: I am more than a little dumbfounded that anybody would thinks that cast bullets would remove jacket fouling from a barrel. The metal fouling is much harder than any lead alloy and heat and pressure welded to the inside of the barrel.


I say: Well, I have repeatedly found that shooting hard lead bullets will completely remove jacketed fouling of any type at all unless the bore is badly pitted or otherwise damaged.



C: I am equally dumbfounded that anybody would think looking at recovered fired cast bullets would in anyway indicate the amount of metal fouling in the barrel.


F-prior: “You just may be right about the ID since I recently picked up intact spent bullets, measured them and found the groove diameter at 0.3080”


F-now; Please note that I did not mention the fouling question at all in that paragraph. The point was bore size!

C: I am all in favor of creative thinking, but only if it works.

The old Krag barrels most often contain generations of alternating layers of jacket metal and powder fouling. Remove one layer of jacket metal and you will find a new layer of powder fouling. Remove the powder fouling and you will find another layer of jacket metal. It may seem like an endless task, but it is not. The new foaming cleaners will dramatically cut the cleaning time down to bare steel. Krags are a particular problems as the layers of jacket metal may very well be both gliding metal and cupro-nickle.

A bright bore may indicate the absence of micro-pits, but tells nothing about the layers of jacket metal fouling.


F: I have re-cleaned this barrel today. The dry patches passed through the scrubbed bore, left to 'season' for 10 hours, sopping wet with solvent came out sightly 'smoked' as we have all seen in cast bullet shooting. There was no trace of the green stains associated with jacketed fouling what-so-ever.

C: I bought my first Krag in 1960 and never had good results with cast bullet until 1984 or so when I discovered Sweets 7.62. After three weekends of applying Sweets, I finally plugged the breech with a hardwood dowel, filled the barrel with Sweets and let it sit for a month in my garage. That did the trick.

Jacket metal in the pores of the steel won't harm the accuracy, but jacket metal on top of the grooves certainly will. It is quite easy to determine when the metal from on top of the steel is gone as from there on out, there will only be traces of color on the patches. You can stop then.


F: So! It appears that the jacketed fouling demon is not present after all!


Char:

[frnkeore]

Der Gebirgsjager,
Thank you very much. I know very little about Krags but, I like mine, a lot. It's very professionally done so, I've always wondered about it.

I tried to send a picture in a PM so I don't interfere with the thread but, it won't let me attach anything so, I'll post the pictures here. Does it look like anything you've seen before?

Thank you,

Frank
152360152361

Frank

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi Frank--
I would say that your description of your rifle being a very nicely done sporter is accurate. I like it. It appears that the barrel may be uncut (it would be 30 inches in length if still original) and has the original front sight. It also has a nice receiver peep sight which appears to be one of the "no gunsmithing" models that were made by Lyman-Ideal, Redfield, etc. that attached by removing the magazine cartridge cut-off lever and which was secured in the cut-off hole with a hook-like piece of metal, and at the side plate with a longer screw. These sights are in big demand as no one makes them anymore and often go for near $100 on e-bay. I've restored a couple of these that still had the 30 inch barrel by "stretching" the forestock. This involves cutting it off beneath the front band and gluing and dowelling on a replacement piece of walnut. If properly done the repair is almost invisible anyway, but is hidden beneath the band. Then, all you need is an actual front band with the bayonet lug and stacking swivel, issue rear sight on the barrel, hand guard and you're pretty much done. NOT that I'm suggesting you do it---just for the sake of conversation about your rifle. It certainly has nice lines the way it is, and I'll bet it's a great hunting rifle. I have several quite similar to yours and favor the "Twilight Aperture" on the sight. I get them from Brownell's, and the gold ring around the aperture is a big plus. Yours has a nice Schnabel, probably the work of one of the older time gunsmiths. I have several with pieced in pistol grips, and the different approaches and levels of workmanship is interesting, but I prefer the classic straight wrist (original) stock like yours has. All said, you have a nice looking rifle. By the way, I've never had any luck attaching photos to PMs either.
DG

[frnkeore]

The barrel is shorten to 26".

Sorry about that FAsmus but, I was hoping to some providence to my rifle.

Frank

[Char-Gar]

Frank....Following WWI, Krags rifle was available for less than $2.00. Many of them were chopped into sporters. Some of them were pretty crude barn jobs and others were quite sophisticated. I have three such rifles with varying degree of work. One has even be restocked. I paid $15.00 for my first such Krag in 1960 and still have it. I killed my first deer with it. While they may not be original, they represent a piece of Americana when the working man could have a fine hunting rifle for a fraction of what a new commercial sporter would cost. I find them very interesting in their own right. Yours is a particularly well done specimen.

[LIMPINGJ]

Some nice looking Krags there.

[blixen01]

Very informative thread, thanks everyone!

My boring Krag story: my uncle took a deer every year with a Krag sporter, so I've always had a soft spot.
In a pawn shop, found a sporter with a cracked stock (behind the magazine) and big, big chip behind the bolt-handle groove. $90. I didn't hesitate.

I epoxied the crack, pillared the screws, did some minor bedding and shaped a piece of hardwood to fill the "ear" behind the bolt handle and pegged and epoxied it in--Just to shoot til I could locate a stock. It's got an old Lyman peep and a ramp front. Good trigger.

I get honest 2 1/2-3" groups at 100 with Lee's 185 gr. "British" .311", sized to .310-.311" and 20 grains of 4759 or 16/2400. (I can no longer find either powder so I'm looking for a replacement.)

The battered stock has kinda grown on me, so I never replaced it.152465152466

(It's kind of embarrassing to post these fotos after the beautiful rifles above.)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Wow! A Krag for $90! That seldom happens anymore. Thanks for the photos and story.

[Char-Gar]

Blixen... Unless you have replaced the rear sight, that is a Redfield 102 and not a Lyman. The Redfield 102 is a great sight for a hunting rifle. It is not click adjustable, but it is all steel and once set it is there forever. I have a number of them on various rifles.

You did a great service to humankind with that Krag rescue.

That chipping and splitting occurred because the rear of the magazine box did not bear on the wood, allowing the metal to move rearward with the recoil. The rear of the magazine box serves as the recoil lug and needs to bear on the wood.

[Scharfschuetze]

(I can no longer find either powder so I'm looking for a replacement.)

While I normally prefer SR4759 for cast boolits in 30 cal military rifle calibres, I've found that Accurate's 5744 double base powder is a very good powder for the Krag with good groups and consistent ballistics over the chrongraph. My only complaint with it is that it seems to burn much hotter than the single base 4759.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/products/rifle/

[FAsmus]

Char:

I went looking and readily found the after-market trigger you mentioned. It's a little pricey but attractive anyway.

Then I looked at eBay for a receiver sight and found this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/191725294570?rmvSB=true

~ Can you tell me anything about it?

I could see by the pictures that there is lots of old rust that has only been partially removed - I'm willing to gamble that it could be cleaned up and used but I'm primarily concerned about the way it is intended to be attached to the rifle.

Anything you can tell me will be appreciated.

Good afternoon, FAsmus

[Char-Gar]

I am not familiar with that sight.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's a very early one and requires drilling and tapping a couple of holes in the left side of your receiver to mount it. I have one that came already mounted on one of the rifles I purchased, and I had to fix it as the lever would not bind the elevation bar tightly enough to retain a setting. Currently at $44 with 2 days to run, I'll be surprised if it doesn't sell for much more with 20 watchers. It's a neat looking sight, but believe me the "no gunsmithing" sights that came later and require no new holes are better sights. They tend to run $60 - $100, but sometimes a deal can be found.

[Scharfschuetze]

It looks like a similar mechanism as the old "Climin' Lyman" that the Model 95 Winchester used. It was/is a very useful sight. Click adjustments for deflection and coarse elevation markings for zero and trajectory. Might be worth the investment if you don't find the one recommended.

[blixen]

Blixen... Unless you have replaced the rear sight, that is a Redfield 102 and not a Lyman. The Redfield 102 is a great sight for a hunting rifle. It is not click adjustable, but it is all steel and once set it is there forever. I have a number of them on various rifles.

You are right, it is a Redfield sight--i haven't looked at it in a while.
And, Scharfschuetze, i'll check out the Accurate 5744, I've also been recommended IMR 4227 as a 4759 replacement.

[gnoahhh]

I have a spare Redfield No-Drill sight I'll let go if anybody wants it. Pretty nice, may never had been on a gun. Complete with cut-off clip, but missing the side plate replacement screw. PM me if interested. I'll sell it for a bit less than eBay prices.

[Multigunner]

Two rare Krags to be on the lookout for are the "School Rifle AKA Phillipine Constabulary Rifles" built by Benecia Arsenal using Carbine barrels turned down at the muzzle to allow use of a bayonet. These have short rifle stocks rather than carbine stocks. Occasionally one of these will be found in a carbine stock if the original stock got broken.
I've seen one of these mistaken for a cutdown rifle, luckily someone alerted the owner before he tried to "restore" it with replacement barrel and stock.
Another is the 26 inch barrel Fortress rifles. A few of these were made for personnel at coast defense gun emplacements, the shorter OAL to allow easier moving about in tunnels and enclosed spaces. These were sometimes confused with the constabulary rifles.

[craig61a]

I run WW RCBS 30-180's in mine over 35 gr. H380. One of my sporterized Krags has the Lyman sight you mentioned and I love it.

[gew98]

Man ..... this thread is gonna make me get back into a krag...oi vey. Been a decade since I traded off my last 98 long rifle and 99 carbine. They were fun shooters...especially with M25 tracer pulls !.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The latest news about this Krag of mine is that I took Char-Gar's advise and worked over the bedding.

It was all in pretty good shape - except at the rear of the magazine box where recoil is transfered to the wood. Here I found a gap and could feel the loose barreled action 'click' in its recess as I applied pressure back-and-forth.

I measured this gap with a feeler gauge and made shims to fit it as precisely as possible. This eliminated the slop but did not bind the assembly either..

Then I naturally went to the range to check the work. My load was 15.0 grains 4759 under the LEE C309-200-R. It worked perfectly right from the first round.

Considering the issue sights and old eyes the darn thing kind of dazzled me.

It'll be out to the foundry and make up some more of those LEE bullets tomorrow.

Good morning, Forrest

[blixen01]

Let us know how it goes. I've been considering the 200 grained Lee.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, it is surprising how trifling are the improvements modern rifles make, for the sort of use to which most people put them, to the .30-40 Krag. With the same sights, if you have any special needs in that respect, but that can be arranged. I would be very surprised if moderate throat erosion is noticeably harmful to accuracy, but if you are worried you should get the best results with heavy bullets, flat bases and thin jackets if they are jacketed.

I don't much like the barrel band in a sporting conversion, and if I was doing a re stocking job, I would try the result of removing it. I can't see that the Krag stock is more flexible than central-magazine rifles, and it does have three bolts going into the action. For cast bullets there is a lot to be said for a bullet which is grooved and lubed for the full length of that long neck, which in that role is an advantage of the .30-40 is an advantage over the .303.


153559

[Der Gebirgsjager]

153592153593153591Alas, the U.S. version lacks the third screw of the Scandinavian version. The as-issued rifle relies upon the barrel bands to keep stock and barrel together. Once the stock is cut off there is no support forward of the front trigger guard screw. One way to address the problem is shown in the center photo, a half-ring around the barrel into the bottom of which is screwed a sling swivel stud, thus serving two purposes. But, if you want to free float the barrel this isn't an option.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ah, I had forgotten that my picture was the Norwegian Krag. So you have a good point, but I think not an irresoluble one.

I don't like the idea of pinning the barrel at the front sling swivel. Not unless it was a sliding band to allow for expansion, and I'm not sure if it would do so consistently. The Norwegian jacketed barrel ought to work, but has various other disadvantages. Shrink-fitting a band, which could be very thin, onto the receiver ring ought to work. But I believe I would prefer to silver solder a threaded lug onto the barrel an inch or two ahead of the receiver. Brownells make a silver solder in ribbons which flows at considerably less than the jewelers' varieties, and should do no harm to the metal.

I once replaced a full length stock on a Martini sporting carbine which was far too light for its cartridge, and I attached such a lug about four inches in front of the receiver. I also glassed in and covered a length of half inch square mild steel, running from just behind the lug, which was glassed into a recess in it, to the front swivel, which was threaded into it. A piece of sheet rubber glassed into the rear of the stock ought to be enough to even out the pressure difference from four inches' worth of expansion. But unless someone has done a very peculiar job on a Krag, it is better without the extra weight.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Gentlemen;

The latest news about this Krag of mine is that I took Char-Gar's advise and worked over the bedding.

It was all in pretty good shape - except at the rear of the magazine box where recoil is transfered to the wood. Here I found a gap and could feel the loose barreled action 'click' in its recess as I applied pressure back-and-forth.

I measured this gap with a feeler gauge and made shims to fit it as precisely as possible. This eliminated the slop but did not bind the assembly either..

Then I naturally went to the range to check the work. My load was 15.0 grains 4759 under the LEE C309-200-R. It worked perfectly right from the first round.

Considering the issue sights and old eyes the darn thing kind of dazzled me.

It'll be out to the foundry and make up some more of those LEE bullets tomorrow.

Good morning, Forrest

That is just the sort of thing that often sorts out the woes of an old rifle like this. The sight on eBay has sold for $102.50, but if you want one it can be a good idea to save the pictures, and number if it shows, and put up a few standing searches with e-mail notifications which are likely to show the next one up. Very often they go for less when the seller doesn't know what they fit.

[Char-Gar]

153592153593153591Alas, the U.S. version lacks the third screw of the Scandinavian version. The as-issued rifle relies upon the barrel bands to keep stock and barrel together. Once the stock is cut off there is no support forward of the front trigger guard screw. One way to address the problem is shown in the center photo, a half-ring around the barrel into the bottom of which is screwed a sling swivel stud, thus serving two purposes. But, if you want to free float the barrel this isn't an option.

On my latest Krag build up, I drilled and tapped the bottom of the front ring for a third action screw. I also made an escutcheon for the stock, so the screw would have a seat. I free floated the barrel and that was the end of that. It works quite well. However, the front ring of a Krag is very hard and it took a carbide drill to get the job done.

I have a pre-war Krag sporter with a non-military stock where a dovetail was cut in the bottom of the barrel, with a threaded block in the dovetail. A screw was used to hold the barrel in the stock again with an escutcheon, thus eliminating the barrel band.

I am not "barrel band adverse", but there are several ways to get around using one on the Krag.

[Char-Gar]

Barrel Bands are not the kiss of death for accuracy in a rifle. However, it is best to not have them contact the barrel, but rather bear on the top of the stock. I have seen some old match Springfield 03s where the upper inside of the band was ground down some, and cork gasket material installed where the barrel contacted the upper inside of the band.

Here is my Springfield NRA Sporter build up, where the band does not contact the barrel. Accuracy is outstanding.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's a nice looking rifle--especially the wood!

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I got to looking at Char-Gar's picture and thought to see if I could post a couple of my own.

Here goes:

153711

This a shot of my rack with the Krag we've been considering and the M1903 I bought when I was 18.

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This is a shot of the pre-match shooting done with the M1903 before this summer's Military Match. The '03 is in the full wood, as you can see, but over the years I've repaired the stock and epoxy bedded the action and forend. ~ It took a couple tries to get it right.

I have a Camp Perry tool for the issue sight and before my eyes gave up I had reasonable luck using the issue sight on out to 835 yards with cast bullet loads.

As depicted the rifle carries a 3X Leupold, no shims, as is necessary for hunting. For the long range game I add a 0.057 shim under the rear scope base so-as to gain enough elevation to allow me to reach the 800 with internal adjustments only.

Good morning, Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The Krag saw it's first day at long range today. It was around 45 degrees with light wind from 10 o'clock.

I did the shooting with the LEE C309-200R over 15.0 grains 4759. ~ Since this is a carbine I didn't figure on shooting beyond about 600 yards ..much further than that and the short sight radius really eats you up.

I'd modified the front sight a little, adding another thickness of steel to one side so I could see it better instead of the little narrow blade the rifle came with.

At the hill-top range I sat down and assessed the issue rear sight with a mind toward how its design would affect the shooting. The issue sight has the typical parabolic curve under the sliding loop that holds the notch-type rear sight. The staff is graduated in 100's of yards, each broken down by four little tiny notches. These probably worked well with the old Cupro-NIckel load back in the day. Here, today, I estimated that the '800' setting would be best to start with for the closest target at our range which is set at 350 yards.

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I needed to get my magnifying glass out to set the sight correctly.

Then, with my spotter in place I was ready. The 350 yard target is a bucket, al-la Quigley - but it is somewhat bigger than a wooden bucket.

154104

The ground was damp, no dust to help spotting so it took four shots to find the steel. Then hits were consistent. I adjusted the sight a little and could cut the 5-inch 'white'. The metal gave a satisfying tone as the bullets impacted out there.

Next was the 'diamond' set at 395 yards. The coarse sight notches didn't cooperate here; I had to hold under the target to get hits. On out to the 440 yard 'bear' hits were easy since he is pretty big and there is plenty of black iron around the white 'bull' to catch wide shots and let you know where to hold for the next shot.

On out to the 470 yard rectangle things fell apart. This target is small, hard to see and the sun had gone behind the clouds, killing the light. I just could not see the top of the front sight well enough to get a decent sight picture ~ plenty of misses were made. There was no hope so I moved to to the 500 yard square. This one I could see and hits came again, ringing the steel nicely.

Then on out to the 552 yard buffalo. The first shot was a hit! and followed by others fairly easily.

The last 6 rounds in my box were for the 587 yard 'big diamond'. This one rings with a wonderful "bong!" when hit ~ and my first shot was a hit! .. then I missed a couple - but the last round in the box was another hit; making my day!

So it goes. This little carbine is pretty much on the line. It is accurate and the sights are usable as-is. ~ I look forward to more enjoyable shooting with this little rifle as the season progresses.

Good evening, FAsmus

[Der Gebirgsjager]

A great and exceptional day for any Krag shooter! Congratulations!

[Scharfschuetze]

Great write up. I can just about smell the smoke.

Wyoming and the other western states have many great places to shoot at long range with all of their BLM public land. I was spoiled by it growing up and I make one or two road trips annually to do just what Fasmus did today. My brothers and nephews are all addicted by it all too so we often make such outings part of our family reunions.

[Shiloh]

My cut-down carbine. Only had it out once this year.
Refinishes stock. water base aniline dye stain, and pure organic boiled linseed oil. REAL boiled linseed oil.
About ten coats.

154498154499154500

Shiloh

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Nice looking carbine. You don't see too many of the headless cocking pieces.