Plastic(AA)wads in a BP 12ga

[Edward]

Shooting tree rats/95g2f with 1 1/2 oz 6 shot and it kills but not without chasing and a beating !My question is ,has any one improved patterns w a 12ga AA wad? I have been using 2 wads over my powder with 1 over my shot ,patterns are not impressive at 20/25 yds . I assume my barrels are not choked and wondered if anyone has used the above wad and does it need modification ?Thanks Ed

[toallmy]

Good Lord that sounds viscous, but you got em right.

[gnoahhh]

That's what I was thinking as I read it! 1½oz. shot? Whew!

If on the off chance he meant 1 1/8 oz. shot, my reaction would be that he's using too much powder and blowing his patterns resulting in spotty hits. I've been using 60-70 gr. FFg + 1 or 1 1/8 oz. and get beautiful patterns out of my Pedersoli using fiber wads- one under the shot, and a thin over shot wad. Two fiber wads under the shot is too much of a good thing. Could they be possibly blowing his patterns? I'll guess too the OP isn't using two card wads over the powder not two fiber or felt wads?

The AA wads might work- one way to find out.

[451 Pete]

You might want to play with the load using card wads a bit before going to plastic. You didn't mention what choke ( if any ) you have to work with but patterns can be improved by changing your load chain some times. ( Read the sticky on the muzzle loading shotgun by V.M. Starr at the beginning of the muzzle loading thread here ... ) I think I would start by reducing the powder charge to around 70 grains and then pattern the shotgun at 35 yds. Go up slowly increasing the powder charge by another 5 grains and do the same. Doing this and experimenting with the wads a bit may show you some better patterns and help.

Just my thoughts .... Pete

[fouronesix]

Looks stiff but have shot that level of load quite a bit out of a 12 ga. It looks similar to what is listed as a heavy or near max type load in the Navy Arms 12 ga "Magnum" SxS muzzleloader. Sounds like you need to increase pattern density to more cleanly kill the squirrels. Just like with birds- the key is multiple shot hits.

And yes, likely not choked, so throws a fairly open pattern. At least that's my experience with cylinder choked ML shotguns. IMO, it'll be difficult to increase pattern density. You can try the methods described in the "sticky" at top of the ML page. Might try lighter load- both shot and powder. Try the AA wad or any other plastic wad for that matter. I tried all kinds of combinations with limited success including those as described in the sticky. I finally settled on the fact that no way to get tight patterns in cylinder gun (I know that different people have different definitions of tight pattern :)). My tightest patterns (even though I wouldn't call them tight) were using a steel shot cup, shortened the petals, added more slits in the petals, used as thin and brittle an over shot card as possible, used a low to moderate powder charge and kept the shot charge to about 1 1/4 oz in the 12 ga. Even tried a thin paper encapsulation wrap for shot column with some success.

[Col4570]

I use 70 Grains of 3f Black Powder,an over Powder card a fibre Wad an over wad card,1 oz of Shot( No 7 )an over Shot Card.Use this loading in my Breach Loading Hammerguns.I use the same in my Muzzleloaders, Flint and Percussion. but I use 11/4oz shot.The 11/4 Oz of shot overcomes the lack of Choke in the Muzzleloaders.
If you need Shot Spread use a card to divide the shot column into two.This will have the effect of widening the spread.I personaly do not use Plastic Wads for anything shooting Blackpowder.The American firm Circle Fly make good Fibre Wads,I make my own from Silcrete expansion strip.

[Edward]

I should mention that I started With 75g 2f and 1 1/8 of 5 shot and in one day five in the tree and 2 ground shots I think I heard giggles! I shot some patterns and saw big holes in the patterns so quit for the day . Went and got some 6 shot and around 90g 2f saw some improvement so 3 in the frigerator but I still think I'm to old for chasing what should have died then and there !I always use a 22so this BP gun is new to me .Almost forgot 2 card over powder and 1 over the shot .If this works with plastic I have some turkeys located for the 5 shot ! Thanks for the help Ed

[skeettx]

AND if the AA plastic wads work for you, then put two wraps of scotch tape around the petals of the wad
and the pattern will tighten up.

Mike

p.s. the black powder will melt the AA wad some and when you clean the gun, you may get strings of plastic :)
That is unless you use a hard card wad under the AA wad.

[fouronesix]

No matter the type of powder, smokeless or BP, plastic shotshell wads have a tendency to deposit a thin layer of plastic on the surface of the bore. Not unique to BP and never a problem in either case.

Also, a potential exists that firing the first barrel will loosen the load column in the second barrel. Good idea to keep this in mind and check the second barrel with a ramrod when developing loads.

[Squeeze]

Havent used AA wads, but my squirrel load is 60 grns 2f and a BPI ranger wad (with 4 slits about halfway down, those wads come unslit) with 1-1/2 oz (basically a wad full)5 shot In a white tominator. Great patterns. I can load it heavier and get great patterns to over 40 yards easy. the gun is jug choked, with hastings choke system. I have several choke tube sizes.

[drago9900]

Would wrapping them in paper and using a wad under them keep them from melting in the bore? I'm guessing they are a little small since they are meant to go in a shell. Hoping to try for ducks and turkey in my double flintlock.

[curator]

I have used both 12 gauge and 20 gauge AA wads in muzzle loading smooth bores with good results (mostly) Cylinder bore guns can benefit from the use of the shot sleeve and the gas seal works pretty good. In my Pedersoli SXS 12 gauge (cylinder bore) I load 70 grains of FFg and AA 1 1/8 oz. wad column. Load shot into the wad column at the muzzle before ramming it to the breech. Thin cork wad over the shot. I wipe the bore after each shot with a cotton muslin patch damp with Ed's Red which helps to prevent the build up of plastic fouling. Both #6 and #7 1/2 shot pattern 100% (40 inch circle) at 30 yards which is 5 yards farther than without the wad column. #2s and #4s pattern a bit tighter at this distance. Chilled and magnum shot will always give the best pattern as the shot is less deformed from the shock of acceleration. Steel shot will give even better patterns if you use shot columns made for it. When substituting steel for lead shot use 2 sizes larger steel compared to lead as it is only 3/5th as dense (heavy) Use #4 steel shot to replace #6 lead and they will have a similar amount of pellets for the weight (but take up more space)

[Hellgate]

I use plastic wads in BP shotshells all the time but in a cartridge gun (SXS) that I can spray down the bores and run a swab through them from one end to the other. A little plastic gets scraped off onto BP fouling in the barrel and the BP melts it into the fouling. If you repeat that a bunch of times you end up with a long tube of thin black plastic lining your barrels. My concern with a Muzzle loader is when you go to clean the gun that you don't just start swabbing the barrel by ramming a swab down to the breech plug where you could end up accumulating a whole bunch of plastic at the bottom of the barrel clogging your flash channel. You can pattern the gun at 15 yards against a cardboard box with butcher paper stapled to it. Mark an aiming point and cut loose. Sometimes a barrel with not be regulated and shoot way off your point of aim. I too, suspect you are getting blown, donut shaped patterns due to too much powder. Less powder and your patterns will become more center dense. It doesn't take a lot of velocity to get the tree rat onto the ground. I've killed them with a pellet gun going only 6-700FPS. You want tight patterns even if they may seem a little slow. 1 1/2 oz shot is a fine load even if only driven by 60-80grs powder. It's not like you are sky busting geese at 50 yds.

[fouronesix]

Yes, the only way to tell what a pattern is doing is to shoot it at paper. The standard for shotgun patterning is a 30" circle at 40 yards. The "ratings" of cylinder, improved, modified, full…. etc. are based on the % shot in the 30" circle. You probably don't need to go to that much trouble. Plus the % hits in the 30" circle with a cylinder bore 12 ga ML is going to be a bit humbling compared to the capability of a high quality, sure enough full choke modern cartridge shotgun firing modern high performance ammo at a patterning target at 40 yards. I would just put up a cardboard backer at a more reasonable distance. You mentioned 25 yards- which is fine to do the comparative load testing for your purposes. Change the paper after each load test and visually compare.

If you get an open donut shaped pattern, the theory about that, which makes sense to me, is the dense gas and over powder wads are getting blown through the center of the shot cloud just after it leaves the muzzle. Lighter powder charges which result in lower muzzle pressures can tend to lessen that phenomenon.

[Reverend Al]

Just my 2 cents worth, but I would use one hard card wad (.125 or .135) over the black powder charge, one fibre filler wad, then I'd take your AA plastic wad (or similar) and cut off the cushioning section with a razor blade or Stanley knife and seat the shot cup over top of the fibre filler wad. Pour your shot charge into the plastic wad cup and then top it all off with a thin over shot card. I've done the same thing loading with black powder in paper and plastic hulls for an old 12 gauge cartridge hammer shotgun with good results. (I shorten 2 3/4" hulls to 2 1/2" and then roll crimp them using an over shot card.) In my case I have a lot of old / vintage shotshell reloading components so I have some 40 year old factory flat bottomed plastic "shot cups" that have no cushioning section that were made to load over cards and fibre wads before one piece plastic wads came into common use, so I don't have to cut the cushioning section off AA wads ...

[southpaw]

I tried sp12 wads in my pedersoli. The patterns were worse. Just a thought about using the aa wads, they are only 1 1/8 oz wad. If you are using 1.5 oz load you are going to have 3/8 oz not in the shot cup. Are you using the .125" over powder wad over the shot or are you using the thin over shot cards? The thicker ones could be blowing your patterns.

Not sure if you have done it but you need to pattern the gun not only to see how the patterns are but to see if they are hitting high, low ect. The gun could be hitting off and you are only hitting the tree rats with the outside of the pattern.

Jerry Jr.

[Newtire]

the gun is jug choked, with hastings choke system. I have several choke tube sizes.
Could you elaborate on jug choking using a Hastings choke system. I thought I knew what they both were but just never heard of them both being used together.

[218bee]

My best luck came after much experimentation shooting at paper. Kinda boring but it will tell ya whats going on.
In my gun 80grs of 2F with one hard card over powder, then 1/2" felt wad over that, 1oz of shot....no shot wad/cup...but I am loading these in 12ga Federal paper cases and regular crimp on my MEC. I believe 80grs was the customary 3Dram load. My dipper used gives me about 7/8-1oz of shot and 80grs of 2f.

[Squeeze]

Could you elaborate on jug choking using a Hastings choke system. I thought I knew what they both were but just never heard of them both being used together.
The bore gets a bit wider, just before the choke. In this case a hastings screw in. I commonly use a .665 (what came with the gun)
(similar) 152732