.45 ACP to .44 Special-Special

[454PB]

On another thread, there was discussion about a .45 Special. I posted about reforming .45 ACP brass to fit/fire in a .44 Special or .44 Magnum. I rooted around in my "treasures" and found the equipment I used to make them.

I'll state up front this was not my idea or creation, I read about it many years ago in (I believe) Handloader magazine. I also believe the author/inventor was a guy named Russ Gaertner.

The idea was to utilize .45 ACP brass (which was very abundant back 30 years ago) to form a sort of .44 Special-Special. It's actually a shorter version of the .44 Special, and can push a 220 grain boolit to over 1100 fps. in a gun of sufficient strength.

I don't normally shoot shorter brass in my revolver chambers.....38 Special in .357 Magnum, .44 Special in .44 Magnum, or .45 Colt in .454 Casull. In limited quantities, it's probably harmless, but prolonged and extensive use will eventually cause problems by eroding the chamber area right behind the cylinder throat. However, I have done some, and there may be a time when brass of any kind will has to be utilized to keep shooting.

This specialized ammo will work well in any single action, but if fired in a double action, the empty cases may have to be pushed out with a dowel. The case rim is too small for the ejector ring to catch the edges, at least in my Taurus .44 Special. I haven't checked other brands of revolver. I was originally using these in a Ruger SBH.

Here are the steps for forming:
Size the .45 ACP in a .45 ACP die. Fired, unsized brass may not fit in a .44 Special/magnum sizing die.

No shell holder is used. Place a flat piece of metal on top of the ram to protect it. Place the lubed .45 brass on the metal, and push it all the way into the .44 die until the case rim meets the die mouth.

Now comes the fun part, getting that well swaged case out of the die. Russ used the hammer and punch method. It works, but is noisy and hard on loading benches. With some home machining, an ejection mechanism could be made. Here's what I do:

Remove the die and turn it over, then screw it into the bottom of the press from underneath. You'll need the lock ring removed for this. I then insert a 3/8" rod (a bolt with the head cut off or a piece of all thread) into the bottom of the die, and raise the covered ram. It will push the finished round out of the die. I use two rod lengths to attain proper leverage.

Once they are formed, they can be loaded and reloaded using normal methods and an RCBS #3 shellholder. Crimping the seated boolit requires shortening of a .44 Special seating die.

Here's a picture of the loaded 44 Special-Special on the left, .44 Special center, and .44 Magnum on the right.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/4544cropSmall.jpg

[RP]

how did you go about working up a safe load for your special special

[Ricochet]

That's a little shorter than a .44 Russian.

[S.R.Custom]

Ed,

Since you are in possession of bullets, assembled cartridges, a SBH, and a caliper, let me throw a question at you: When that 220 grain bullet is fired, does the front driving band contact the chamber throat before the tail end of the bullet leaves the case?

(I question the efficacy of such a cartridge in the .44M if the burning powder charge is free to whistle around the bullet during its jump from case to throat.) Although it looks like it should work delightfully in a .44 Special chamber.

[454PB]

Sorry it took so long to respond to these posts.

I don't recall any of the load data I used for these, but as a starting point, I think you could safley use data for .45 ACP hardball and 220 grain cast boolits. Yes, the case capacity is slightly reduced, but any .44 magnum would handle the increased pressure easily. If you used them in .44 Special, you would need to reduce the charge accordingly.

I will have to do some measuring, Supermag. I don't own a SBH anymore, but do own several other .44 magnum revolvers. I fell in love with a 6" model 29 S&W at a gunshow in Missoula many years ago, and traded my old model SBH straight across for the Smith. One of those gun deals you wish you could undo.

You make a good point. All I can say without the measuring completed is that the loads I used were very accurate, and there was no evidence of gas cutting or leading. I was using the 215 grain Lyman 429215 gas checked boolit, as seen in the picture. Gas checks were less than a penny a piece back then.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

Have you tried it in a Lever Action Rifle?

It may make a great target load.

Low Kick & Low Cost.

What kind of Reloading equipment would I need to make them?

Recipies?

[Swagerman]

Ed, it resembles my .44 APC cartridge, which was a .308 rifle brass cut to .937 OAL and reamed and chamfered.

I still have a patent on it, so watch it feller...:mrgreen: But in all honesty I think the patent has run out by now, they are only good for about 15 years.

It would make a pretty good rifle cartridge as well, was getting 1,500 fps in my Randall .45 acp clone with its .44 apc proto-type barrel. The barrel was a Dan Wesson .44 caliber sleave fitted in a bored out Colt .45 acp barrel.

Still have lots of ammo and the barrel and recoil springs.

Jim

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Ed, You were swaging the solid head portion of the case down .019"( .476"-.457"). That must be some heck of a reloading press. I turned dies to swage .348Win cases down about that amount, to make 10.4 Vetterli brass, and have to do it in two stages, in an arbor press.

Jim, What weight bullets are you using in this round? It sounds superior to my 10mm and .45 Super that I built by using Delta springs in my .45acp. I'm using Starline brass with thick webs.
Morgan

[Lloyd Smale]

why not cut the top off a carbide sizing die and then use one of those lee sizing die set punches to push them right threw the top base first.

[45 2.1]

why not cut the top off a carbide sizing die and then use one of those lee sizing die set punches to push them right threw the top base first.

Its needs a rim to headspace (sort of) to. You do that and it won't have one.

[454PB]

Yes, it needs that rim, so a push through wouldn't work.

Morgan: I'm use an RCBS Rockchucker to form them, but my Lee Classic Turret has enough power too. Pushing them in is relatively easy, getting them out is a little more work.

Jim, I admitted up front that I stole this idea, so you'll have to go after somebody else!

I've never tried these in a rifle, so I can't say how they would work.

NEWENGLANDCHARTERS: You need a .44 sizing die, either special or magnum, I use an old steel (non carbide) .44 Special sizing die and boot waterproofing (Smiling Mink) as a case lube. Imperial Sizing Die Wax also works, but costs 10 times as much as the boot waterproofing. The sizing die needs no modification, but the crimping die has to be shortened to reach the case mouth. I used a grinder to shorten mine, but a carbide bit in a lathe would do it too. Also, flaring the case mouth requires either a shortened neck expander, or you have to remove the decapping pin in order to reach the case mouth. My neck expander hit the inside of the case head before it flares the mouth, so I have to removed the decaping pin and the securing nut. OR....you could use a Lee universal case expander.

Supermag:
I did some measuring yesterday. The formed case lengthens a little, and is .909" long. a .44 special case is 1.160" long, a .44 Magnum case is 1.285" long. I use the Lyman 429215 boolit, and it has a bearing length of .384". With a little math, I come up with about .133" of bore diameter boolit between the case mouth and cylinder throat upon firing in a .44 Special, and only .008" in a .44 Magnum. Again, I saw no problems with that in my old SBH, but can't recommend it to others.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Ed, Could it be you weren't swaging down the solid base portion of the case? Is the solid base below the extractor groove on the .45acp? Might be so, because they had to thicken the base and web for the .45 Super, to support it over the ramp.
I couldn't do it (swage the solid base and web) in either my RCBS A-2, or my Pacific SuperPro, which is even stronger. Either of these presses will easily form a .243Win. out of .30-06 with light pressure, without annealing, the resulting long collapsed necks and wrinkled shoulders not withstanding. I've used them both for bullet swaging, the RCBS back when you could get all the spent copper .22 short cases you wanted, for a buck or two a 5 gal pail, at the shooting galleries in Coney Island.
But I've only worked with rimmed cases, which had to be swaged down to the rim.
Also, regarding carbide dies, for you fellows contemplating using them, the carbide rings, especially on sizing dies made for larger diameter cases, cannot take too much strain, carbide being very brittle. The steel will expand, the carbide won't. I've broken carbide dies in my 5 ton arbor press, trying to use them for swaging brass, and they were screwed into a 7/8-14 hole drilled and tapped in a 1" thick steel plate.
Morgan

[Lloyd Smale]

guess i wasnt thinking there. but theres got to be a faster way to do this or its hardly worth while. What about if a guy cut off a die and turned it upside down and tapped the cases into the die with something like a the lead hammer thats made here and ejected them with one of the lee push through punchs. Im seriously thinking an old model ruger chambered in 44 russian and fed like this would be pretty neat.

[lathesmith]

Thanks for the post, 454. Looks like another interesting lathe project to me! I've got a bunch of 45acp brass, and a Ruger SBH. I think I'll try and make a couple of sizing dies, and try and squeeze that brass down in a couple of steps. You might be able to use a shellholder this way, and with the turret press you could form brass fairly quickly.
lathesmith

[AKtinman]

On another thread, there was discussion about a .45 Special. I posted about reforming .45 ACP brass to fit/fire in a .44 Special or .44 Magnum. I rooted around in my "treasures" and found the equipment I used to make them.

I'll state up front this was not my idea or creation, I read about it many years ago in (I believe) Handloader magazine. I also believe the author/inventor was a guy named Russ Gaertner.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/4544cropSmall.jpg

Say, I remember that article. I was in Kodiak at that time, and it would have been around 1978-79. I just had to try it out, and promptly busted the carbide ring in my RCBS .44 sizer die! Bought a new set of dies and later had the old one repaired.

Neat idea, though.

Regards

Ron

[joatmon]

Could mount the press on the shop hydrolic press, use an adapter to pump out the case from the top after forming.

[454PB]

Lloyd is right, it's a lot of work doing it the way I did. However, it only has to be done once. As I recall, I made up 150 of the cases and it took me about an hour. Jim (Swagerman) built a linked ejector (not his spring loaded one he recently posted) for bullet swaging that ulilized the down stoke of the press ram to remove the formed swaged bullet. That might work, although it takes a lot of push. Joatmon has the right idea if you were doing this in volume.

Morgan, it definately sizes the case head. Give it a try and you'll see what I mean.

Lathesmith, just remember you have to push the case into the die all the way to the rim on the .45 ACP case. The flange on a shellholder prevents that.

Ron, that's about the right time frame. I have every handloader magazine since 1973, but I'm not willing to dig through them to find the article. Yes, a carbide die won't work, the carbide is too brittle and the ring would break (as you discovered).

[Morgan Astorbilt]

45PB, I miked the base height of several .45acp cases, and the center, is at or a few tousanths below the top of the extracter groove. This will allow the base to curl up slightly, as the case is swaged. This, along with the reduced diameter, will add to case length.

Anybody that wonders why I thought this couldn't be done, just try to swage any solid head rimmed case down to the rim. A good example, would be to force a .45-70 case(.505" base dia.) into a 31/64"(.4834") hole drilled in a steel plate. The plate(or washer), could be slipped over the case, and the case placed in the press, where a steel electical box KO slug has been placed on the ram in place of the shell holder, and the ram brought up, the washer being stopped by the top of the press frame, as the case moves up. The spot where the solid head begins, will become very apparent, when the case stops its upward movement. I mention this, as one method(using a shell holder), to reduce case walls before fire forming, if you don't have a lathe, or the proper dies). You just can't swage the solid portion of a case this way.
Morgan

[EDK]

IIRC there was an article about this in SHOOTING TIMES about the time the CHARTER 44 BULL DOG was brought out. The author discussed using the hybrid brass in his little cannon in some detail.

This was back in the good old days of non-available model 29 S&Ws and wanna-be Dirty Harry types paying $500+ for them. One of the local pawn shops charged $1 just to fondle the model 29 on display..."POR"

PISTOLS, A MODERN ENCYCLOPEDIA by Harry Stebbins showed a rig to full length size casings that eliminated the shell holder so you could size as low as possible. I made one at work and used a spring loaded ejector rod...drill holes in a couple of flat strips, use some heavy duty threaded rod and some jury rigging to a ground down shell holder. D--- if I can remember what I needed it for, but it worked!

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[Morgan Astorbilt]

The Lyman Ram Prime Die set has an anvil which replaces the shell holder. This would be just the ticket for sizing up to the rim. It resembles the anvil on a Rockwell Tester.
Morgan

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/ramprime2.jpg

[jschance]

Other than the "I did it myself" aspect, what are the benefits of this project over purchasing .44 Russian brass from Starline?

[EtdBob]

Well, my Boss gave me a pile of empty brass he'd come across, simply because I'm the local gun nut and reloader. 9mm, .40 S&W. .45 ACP. None of which I reload.

I remembered this post, and decided to form the .45 ACP into something usable in my .44 magnums.

Now, the only press I've ever owned is the neat little Lyman Acculine, that can be used as a bench mounted unit or configured as a hand held press.

http://www.southernhuntingsupplies.com/images/0811431.jpg

Because of the amount of force needed I had it set up as a hand held press and was using my weight to force the issue. I was using a the anvil from my Lyman ram prime die, and unscrewed the decapper from the sizer die so I could use a wooden 3/8 dowel and hammer to knock the formed case back out of the die.

I shaved a tiny ring of brass from the base of every .45ACP case!

Got a handful of neat little .44 Extra Shorts formed when the press broke. :weepie:

The zinc frame of the press just couldn't take the force needed.

Now I'm in the market for a new single stage press. Gonna miss that Layman, I don't think they are made anymore. :(

[454PB]

Sorry to hear this. Yes, I use an RCBS Rockchucker for this job, it takes a lot of force to push those .45 ACP cases into a .44 sizer.

I use either Imperial sizing die wax or boot waterproofing as a lube. Mine are done in a steel die for fear of breaking a carbide ring.

[StarMetal]

Sorry to hear this. Yes, I use an RCBS Rockchucker for this job, it takes a lot of force to push those .45 ACP cases into a .44 sizer.

I use either Imperial sizing die wax or boot waterproofing as a lube. Mine are done in a steel die for fear of breaking a carbide ring.

For heavy resizing jobs, such as you are doing, Imperial wax isn't the best stuff. Get some Bullshop Case sizing lube from Bullshop. Tis much better stuff.

Joe

[StarMetal]

45PB, I miked the base height of several .45acp cases, and the center, is at or a few tousanths below the top of the extracter groove. This will allow the base to curl up slightly, as the case is swaged. This, along with the reduced diameter, will add to case length.

Anybody that wonders why I thought this couldn't be done, just try to swage any solid head rimmed case down to the rim. A good example, would be to force a .45-70 case(.505" base dia.) into a 31/64"(.4834") hole drilled in a steel plate. The plate(or washer), could be slipped over the case, and the case placed in the press, where a steel electical box KO slug has been placed on the ram in place of the shell holder, and the ram brought up, the washer being stopped by the top of the press frame, as the case moves up. The spot where the solid head begins, will become very apparent, when the case stops its upward movement. I mention this, as one method(using a shell holder), to reduce case walls before fire forming, if you don't have a lathe, or the proper dies). You just can't swage the solid portion of a case this way.
Morgan

Morgan,

I size down the case and swage down the head of 30-06 class cases (that is .473) to 6.5x54MS which has a head size of about .443 all the way to the rim and I use my RCBS Rockchucker. I have a series of dies I do this with. Yes it's hard as you stated.

Joe

[rockrat]

AKtinman---I remember the same article and tried the same thing with my carbide die. It cracked in about 5 places.

[AKtinman]

Yeah, rockrat, learn by doing!

I remember thinking at the time that the carbide ring might break, but took the chance anyway.

About 1970 I read an article (by George Nonte, I believe) that described using .5 gr of Bullseye in a .38 Special to allow catching a bullet fired into a box of rags or newspapers in order to retrieve the undamaged boolit for slugging purposes. Yep, tried it out and ended up with a boolit stuck in the bore!

Nowadays, I'm a bit more cautious about some of these "good ideas." ;) Hopefully I've gotten a little smarter...

[kir_kenix]

I read this post the other day, and figured I'd give it a try. Well, it IS doable but it does take alot of work. I put a piece of flat iron on my coax "shell holder" and ran a new, lubed .45 acp case up to the rim in my old Hornday die. Ended up having to use a piece of threaded rod to pound the case out of the die.

Tried using a shell holder in a Hornady l-n-l, but ended up crushing all the material down to the shell holder and wrecking the case. This is a pretty cool idea if someone were completely out of .44 brass, but other then that I'm not sure its worth the trouble. I'll keep this idea tucked away in the back of mind, just in case it ever becomes necessary to make some usable brass.

[Trapshooter]

Tried it with my Classic Cast press. The reformed shell came out good but I smashed the shell holder insert in the process. Now shell holders won't slide in. Time for the needle files to open up the slot, or $32 to Lee.

Trapshooter

[EtdBob]

Anyone actually shave a ring of brass off the base of the .45 ACP case as happend with me?

[Trapshooter]

EtdBob

Mine shaved off a ring. I used surplus WCC brass sized in a 45 sizer, then a 44 carbide die with Imperial. I got the ram repaired. so I'm back to being a reloader again.

Trapshooter

[HamGunner]

I have an old Lee Loader set for .44 spl/.44 mag. that I'll bet would work. Might take a large hammer to pound them in and a large one to pound them out, but it might be something I might try sometime when I get bored for something to do.

[454PB]

Let us know how that works for you, HamGunner. I suggest you wear ear and eye protection!

[kawalekm]

Just to let you guys know, this idea has been taken a step further, with the making of .41 shorts from .45ACP brass. On pages 63-66 of the 9th ed. of Handloader's Digest (1981), the author James Cowgill describes the process of sequentially sizing the .45 cases through .45ACP sizer, 44 mag sizer, a .41 bullet seating die, and finally, a .41 mag sizing die!

He tested his cartridges (the 41 Cowgill) in a Smith & Wesson model 57 with 170, 200, and 220 grain jacketed bullets, with velocities of 1370, 880, and 848 fps respectively.
Michael

[RSJR]

I gave the 44 special-special a whirl today.
I ran a 45 acp case (CCI range pick-up)) through my RCBS 45 colt carbide resizer die first. Then, with plenty of sizing lube, I pressed the case into an old 44 mag Lee Loader with a 1/2 ton arbor press. I used a small spacer to get the case to go all the way in. Pressed the case out useing a metal rod and ran it into a Lee 44 mag carbide die as far I could. This left a ridge near the base which I removed with my mini lathe.
Now the acid test, I inserted the case into my 44 mag NEF handi-rifle and it chambered fine, but went past the ejector like it was'nt there.
Oh well, a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 special is on my wish list and this cartridge should work fine in it. I cast some 246 grn RN boolits (Lee mould) from WW today and was wondering if 6 grains of Unique would be OK for this cartridge?
I think .44 auto rim would be a better description of this wildcat than .44 special-special.....
Darn Montana weather...I've got too much time on my hands...
Thanks
Ron

[Reg]

Saw this one and had to try it. Ed was kind enough to supply specific information and a list of pitfalls. Having a 30 hydrolic press made the job a snap.
The plate and machine nut concept is something made up some time ago while making 25-20 Single Shot from .223. The pictures should tell most of the story.
Found it best to use only brass with a perfect mouth. Any dent or flaw will compound itself in the reduction. Started with a 45 ACP FL die and added a step of using a 308 Win FL die to give things a tiny bit of taper and also ran the cases about 2/3 way into the 44 FL die while it was still in the loading press. I think it helped with alignment. A 1/2" fender washer was used as a spacer and seemed to stop things before the rim was pressed into the die. No primer pocket compression was observed. On about one half the cases there was a small burr pushed into the extraction groove area but it was just barely there and barely hanging on and was removed with a safe edge file. After the cases ran in crushed pecan hulls for a couple hours you couldn't see any remains. Cases fit and eject from a SBH and a Model 29. Some modification will be required in the loading dies but I have several partial sets laying around and will just make up a dedicated set for this.
Took the best part of yesterday to come up with 50 cases but I really don't care, beats the heck out of cleaning flower beds !!!
I can see where it might be best to keep these cases far away from regular 45 ACP but other than putting in a box by themselves and marking well I cant imagine a method that will make them stand out. Best to just be careful. Then again it might work out like firing a 30-30 in a 32 Spl. No harm done but you will never hit anything.

[dbosman]

Lyman Acculine,
The zinc frame of the press just couldn't take the force needed.
Now I'm in the market for a new single stage press. Gonna miss that Layman, I don't think they are made anymore. :(

A lot show up on eBay. Some at reasonable prices.

[alamogunr]

Did you realize you replied to a 5 year old post?:razz:

Glad you did so I could find this thread. Very interesting.

[454PB]

Reg, it could be that you're pushing them just a bit too far into the die, because I had no problems with brass flowing into the extractor groove.

Your method looks more civilized than the way I did it, but again, it only has to be done once. After they are formed, they can be reloaded with a standard .44 special/magnum sizing die, and a modified seating/crimping die.

[Old School Big Bore]

My buddy Montana Pistol Hunter and I made a hundred of these about 25-30 years ago BECAUSE we had lever actions. One look at that magazine article and 'hmmmm, more in the magazine'. I'd just traded a Commander for a SBH & had the brass, so we squeezed the ACPs into a steel .44 sizer die in a bench vise, flipped the die around & slipped it into a big socket & pressed the brass out with a rod. Lots of spinning the vise handle but it worked. Then we asked my machinist father-in-law to cut a seat/crimp die down for us (we forgot to tell him the entry needed radiusing - that die still gives me problems today). We put the Lee 120 gr button WC over a smidge of Bullseye and voila le cat sneeze and lots more boolits in the tube. My 29, SBHs and Bulldogs all shot them very well. They made great point-shooting training ammo too. I think MPH still has those cases.
Ed

[W.R.Buchanan]

An easy way to do this would be to take a piece of steel bar like 1 x 2 x 4-5" long and counter-bore (plunge a 7/8"endmill) 2ea 7/8" holes in it about 3/4"deep.

There would be a 15/32" counter-bore about .060 deep to center the case up in the die in the first hole,,, and a 1/2" thru hole in the other hole so the case could be ejected out the bottom. The 7/8" part of the hole centers the die on the base plate and case for both operations.

An Arbor Press would be used to shove the die down onto the case for sizing it in the first hole and then the die shifted to the other hole and a punch used to push the sized case out thru the bottom of the base plate into a bucket below.

Any sizing die that has a removable top or primer punch would work.

This would be a simple two part operation, and everything would be done the same direction by just shifting the die back and forth in the base block.

This is a simple project and the base plate and punch would take maybe 1 hour to make and you'd have the set up beat and could start making cases in an efficient manner.

A hydraulic press could also be used and would require less effort on your part, but would be slower.

Hope this helps you guys out. The toolmaker in me just wouldn't stay quiet. :mrgreen:

Now,,, the .473 rim is enough to headspace the cases in a revolver,,, Right? How about a Marlin Rifle?

Randy

[Michael J. Spangler]

Tagged for updates

[Michael J. Spangler]

I'm amazed that this group of tinkers hasn't tried to apply this to other cartridges.
My bet was that in 3 weeks we would have had a sub forum for it.

Anyone else messing with pistol case reforming?

[Reg]

Reg, it could be that you're pushing them just a bit too far into the die, because I had no problems with brass flowing into the extractor groove.

Your method looks more civilized than the way I did it, but again, it only has to be done once. After they are formed, they can be reloaded with a standard .44 special/magnum sizing die, and a modified seating/crimping die.


Right you were. By holding back .015 to .020 it eliminated the small amount of brass flowing. By my eyeball the brass should be held out of the die by .060/.070. I used a 1/2" normal "merchant" washer as a stop.

I tried several different lubes. Imperial being the best.

With moderate loads all worked well in a SBH but had some sticky extraction in a M-29. I suspect a small amount of spring back in the brass being the problem. Need to FL size and try again.

Tried in a Martini action .44 and accuracy was superb with some bullet designs, the 42798 being the surprise. The 429303 as shown in Lyman 42 gave the same great accuracy as shown in Hudson's article but failed miserably at any longer ranges.
The 42798 however gave ragged one hole groups. Targets shown were shot at 50 yds, the 42798 being by far the best.

Only thing I can see about these rounds that one has to be careful of is ever firing them again in a .45 ACP mostly because one will generally load to .44 Spl. loads as in the case of the 42798 load, 9 gn. Unique. Waaaaaay to hot for any 1911.

THIS was one good project.

[454PB]

Nice group, Reg!

[pull the trigger]

I have seen ads for roller sized brass. Cant do it with these? I have no idea how they are roller sizing either. I am surprized Grumpa isnt cranking these out for 44 russian

[d_man2]

So just the other day I ordered an antique 1874 11mm French revolver and it came in the mail yesterday. I had remembered reading this article a while back and it got me to thinking....this .44 Special-Special looks an AWFUL lot like the dimensions of the 11mm....so I made up a couple of them, made sure the boolits were seated far enough back to not interfere with the short chamber. Lo and behold, I tried it out and it worked flawlessly. The revolver came with 150 brass that were cut down from 44-40 so I really don't think I will be needing anymore but I did want to try this! It also came with about 400 heel-base boolits but being the frugal sort of person I am, I was not going to go ordering a custom mold for this or even worse BUY heeled-boolits online, so I looked to see what Lee had that I could make work. I settled on the Lee blackpowder 450-200-1R as it seemed like it was the closest thing to being bigger than .44 and smaller than a .45. I was already using the Lee blackpowder 375-130-1R mold for my 9.4 Dutch and I was happy with the results. These boolits were SIGHTLY undersized for what I needed but since I tumble powdercoat almost all my boolits it brought them up to exactly .380 for the Dutch. I figured if the blackpowder molds worked for the Dutch, why not try for the 11mm French? Sure enough, I cast a few just to try them out and see how they were in comparison to the heeled boolits I got with the pistol. Now, since I dont have a die set for 11mm French, it took a little creative figuring to get everything working. I primed the brass and put powder in and I seated the boolit with a .44 Special seating die (although I am sure a .45 ACP would work nicely as well, but I don't have a set of these). When I pressed the boolits in both the factory and my own cast, I made sure to push them in quite far so that the "heel" drove in a little extra which will aid with the crimp. That brings me to my next part.....how to crimp!? I don't have a crimp die that would work and on all the rounds there was a small ridge of lead that had peeled off during the seating which was enough that the round would not chamber. So what I did was I ran them into my .44 Special full length die.....it cleaned them up nicely, but I found that the boolit was a bit loose in the brass now, so, I tried some with my .444 Marlin dies....THAT was the sweet spot! It squished the boolit nice and tightly but did not squish it too much like the .44 Special did. I have included a picture....from left to right is my .44 Special-Special using my own cast, next is my own in the trimmed 44-40, and lastly is the heeled boolit that came with the pistol. As I did not really have enough Special-Specials made up it is hard to tell what the accuracy was like, but they shot every bit as well as the trimmed 44-40's. My own cast boolits appeared more accurate than the heeled boolits, so I was pretty happy about that! When I reloaded them, I popped out the primers, put new ones in, charged them with powder, seated the boolits and sized them in the .444 sizing die...........it all worked VERY slick. Hope it helps someone else out there.

108731

[bannor]

Think I'd just sell the .44 and buy a .45, if things got that out of hand. :-) Or more likely, a 9mm.

[GRUMPA]

I have seen ads for roller sized brass. Cant do it with these? I have no idea how they are roller sizing either. I am surprized Grumpa isnt cranking these out for 44 russian

Simply because they're to easy to make. I prefer to make the cases that require a little bit of tinkering, lathe work, special abilities.