577 Snider Martini

[swamp]

I have a Martini action sitting idle and am thinking of having it barreled in 577 Snider.
Is there a member of the forum, who is a smith, that could and would do this?
swamp

[craig61a]

You would have better luck going with something like 45-70...

[swamp]

True, but I shoot and load the 577 Snider and would like one in a Martini action.

[John Taylor]

Finding a barrel might be fun, not many places make that size. Groove diameter can run any where from .577" to .590". I did one last year but I am backed up so much with work at this time I am not taking on more.

[Dan Cash]

John Taylor would be my first recommendation but as he says he is booked, contact Norman Johnson, 243 14th Ave NW, Turtle Lake ND, 58575. He can bore and rifle about what ever you want.


Dan

[swamp]

Dan,
Thank you for the contact. I will drop him a line.
swamp

[.22-10-45]

Few years back, there was a write up in the Fouling Shot..Cast Bullet Association magazine, from a fellow in Australia that re-barreled a Martini to .577 Snider using a .58 Parker-Hale percussion barrel.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It should be a very practical close-range cartridge for the Martini, and within its range, perhaps easier to load for than the .577/.450. As has been said, the Parker-Hale barrel would work, and it is likely that you could get a barrel for one of the Italian ones, or even US 1860 replicas. It is unlikely, unfortunately, that any of the barrel reboring specialists would have the tooling for anything so large.

Best of all, if you could find one, would be a barrel with a fast enough twist to use a flat based bullet like the .577 Expresses eventually did. (There is no need to use the excessively hollow pointed bullet they at first had.) It was the slow twist of the muzzle-loaders initially to be converted, not expansion, that required the continued use of the Minié bullet.

[curator]

The Gunworks is agent for Oregon Barrel works, a custom barrel maker that might make just what you need in .58 caliber. According to their website a customer can specify rifling depth and twist rate. Here's a link to that site: http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=510&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes

[swamp]

I am using a 400gr. flat base now. It does well in my Snider.

curator,
Thank you for The Gunworks link. I talked to Joe and he is going to see if they have a barrel that will work.

swamp

[pdgh59]

I may be wrong, but from memory the 577 Snider is too large to fit in a standard MH action. Check out the British Militaria site.
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/directory#.VjWo5TahfIV

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I may be wrong, but from memory the 577 Snider is too large to fit in a standard MH action. Check out the British Militaria site.
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/directory#.VjWo5TahfIV

You may be right, although I would have thought it would work. People did make 20ga shotguns out of the military action, although I don't know if they modified the block or lever.

But the OP has a disembodied Martini action (I must try to contain my jealousy) and Snider rounds. If he wraps a round in thin paper and then with a firm adhesive tape until it just pushes into the barrel threads, he should have a good enough dummy chamber to find out.

[swamp]

Ballistics,
Thank you for that idea. I believe that I read that it had been done, but it was a while back.
swamp

[swamp]

I took a close look at the action. It is an 1896 marked M E 303. Saw the extractor was too tight with the 577 so took a closer look at the stampings. Centering the case in the action it looks like it should work.

Mr. Taylor,
If I might impose on your experience. Did you have any problems with the 577 Snider chambering in the Martini?

swamp

[John Taylor]

The old Martini was made in 577-450 which is a 577 case bottle necked down to 45. If I remember right the thread size is 1"x 14 and I think this was the same size used on the 12 gauge action.

[swamp]

That is why I think that the 577 Snider will work.
swamp

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The old Martini was made in 577-450 which is a 577 case bottle necked down to 45. If I remember right the thread size is 1"x 14 and I think this was the same size used on the 12 gauge action.

It is the same as was used in the Lee-Enfield barrels, only shorter, so you can eliminate the Lee-Enfield extractor cut and make a good Martini barrel from one. Even some Belgian Martinis used the same thread. That is the one on which the 20ga was the largest shotgun shell that could be used.

The Greener GP civilian shotgun, and the EG or police gun, used a larger thread, I think 1.125in. although you shouldn't take my memory on trust. Only this makes a Martini suitable for 12ga, which inserts and ejects easily. It is stronger than a shotgun needs to be, with a reliable sear safety, and an excellent action for medium pressure rifle cartridges. The civilian version has a rather well designed takedown system, which although this may be an unnecessary worry of mine, I wouldn't use for really intense cartridges.

[rollmyown]

Bad *** Wallace (a member here in Australia) has done it. Do a search for "super snider" here or PM him. He's the guru for this stuff.

[chrispy]

Myself, Keyhole and Bad *** Wallace all own a 'Super Snider', that is a 577 barrel (new Walthar-Lothar) on a Large MkI or II action. The Barrel profile on mine is same as a MkIII Snider, so fairly light. But BAW's and Keyholes are a heavier profile.

BAW owns the reamer.

Chrispy

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My 'dream rifle' being discussed :drinks:

Gents, an original 577/450 Martini action will accept the Snider cartridge without modification. I used a converted Enfield 303 Mk3 action (1895)with a replacement 577 extractor. The breechblock of the 303 can be either an original MH one or a replacement designed especially for the ME. This ME block has a scoop that is too small.

This 'old timer' cartridge in a stronger action is certainly a worthwhile conversion. PT&G supplied the reamer but they have two forms, original chamber and modern drawn brass specifications. I purchased the drawn "brass form" and it has proven a wise choice. A fired case has little or no stretch and even requires a little expanding to accept a new boolit. The barrels are .575/.585 with 1:48" twist.

My barrel is finished 30 1/2 inches and of medium profile. Cast bullet Engineering here in Australia (http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/) have developed two boolits for these conversions - 480gn Colin Clark Bumble-Bee and a 620 gn flat based design based on the original minnie.

My 'target'load is the 480gn boolit with 70gns Swiss 1 1/2 and the heavy load is 92gn FFG with the 620gn boolit.

Cases made from 24ga Magtec brass
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Stages.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Stages.jpg.html)

620 gn plain based boolit mould
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture013-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Picture013-1.jpg.html)

European walnut blank
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture146.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Picture146.jpg.html)

Test target with 92gnd FFG and the 620gn boolit at 75 yards
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Ped38_2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Ped38_2.jpg.html)

[swamp]

BA, thank you for the info. I think I will enjoy this gun once done.
swamp

[Ballistics in Scotland]

What a marvelous project. Someone has to do it!

I have some of those Magtech cases, for relatively humdrum use in my 24ga, and you might be interested in knowing that Buffalo Arms will still export those direct, although they are now prevented from doing so with rifle and pistol cases. I know people have found them liable to failure, though perhaps not first-shot failure, when formed to .577/.450 and used with even the full black powder load. I just guessed that they might be fine with the .577, but do you find this is the case?

I know the .303 Martinis was supposed to require a new .303 breechblock, or the inletting of a strip of steel into the front of the old one, to prevent deformation and jamming - though not, I think, danger. Not that it matters for the Snider conversion, but it would be interesting to know just what difference exists, if it isn't entirely metallurgical. There would be a little extra strength in the narrower cartridge trough on top, but I wondered whether there was thicker metal in the front of the block too.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I took a close look at the action. It is an 1896 marked M E 303. Saw the extractor was too tight with the 577 so took a closer look at the stampings. Centering the case in the action it looks like it should work.

Mr. Taylor,
If I might impose on your experience. Did you have any problems with the 577 Snider chambering in the Martini?

swamp

This picture shows a Martini extractor which is tight enough to lodge in place minus a receiver after all those years. If you have the chamber reamer you can file a .303 extractor to the diameter of the .577 head, temporarily epoxy it in place, and cut the rim recesses in the extractor with the reamer. The reason not to shape the tips entirely by filing is to minimize the removal of metal and leave the most strength in the extractor tips.

But you really must anneal the extractor and reharden it afterwards, if you plan to do this. It should be spring tempered, and that is harder than chamber reamers are meant to deal with.